the worst 2002 NYJ first day pick? not Bryan Thomas

[bitonti]

ok it's been 3 years of Bryan Thomas bashing from JETS fans - all sorts of bashing - how it was a horrible reach, how he sucks etc. -

and to be fair the amazing play of Ed Reed isn't exactly helping his case -

all that being said, it is in my opinion the 2nd round where terry really made the big mistake - not the first -

his plan was to take the DE help in round 1 and take the DB help in round 2 - and as far as plans go that's fine - remember that this is the season after DE Abraham had his mysterious "flu" in the playoffs against the Raiders, the first of many dissapearing acts before big games -

if Bryan Thomas was in the current draft his 4.45 would be the best 40 yard dash time among all DE... and lets be real he's not nearly as bad a player as most fans would have us believe from their non stop bitching and moaning...

ok so back to the 2002 draft - terry took his man in the first and that's ok -

however look what he does next - takes white boy safety Jon McGraw with the 2nd round pick - um... ok... the eagles have the next two picks - they DOUBLE UP on DBs - taking Michael Lewis and Sheldon Brown - two absolute STUDS at the position.

if you ask me (and not many people do) this was a bigger mistake then passing on Reed for Thomas - besides the fact that we don't know if Ed reed becomes the same caliber of player without playing under Donnie Henderson and with Ray Lewis - at least Thomas is a servicable tough starter who can play the run and the pass with great measurables and real upside -

meanwhile after three years the injury prone McGraw is teetering dangerously close to bust-dom and the Eagles took not 1 but 2 DB's back to back - for them to makes these picks with 2 pro bowl CB on their roster at the time, that means there was incredible value still on the board - these guys are studs in the Eagles secondary - which is probably the best in the league.

thoughts?

[RSJ]

Yeah, I agree and would take it a step further and not say who is more of a bust than the other but that the Jets could have improved their whole secondary that day.

[TomShane]

Here's the problem with Bryan Thomas, bit-man. He was drafted SOLELY because of his drill numbers, which is always a cause for concern. He is plum-stupid and hsn't learned a damn thing from Day One. Yes, he has improved and is a very solid DE who plays the run well. Those are the types of guys you draft in round 3 or 4.

As for McGraw, you're right and wrong, IMO. McGraw, though injury prone, is a rare and valuable player in the league--a FS who can match up on a slot receiver and then slide inside to wrestle with TE's. When you consider that Donnie was using him to lock up Randy McMichael and Antonio Gates last season--a role he'll contiunue this season--you have to consider how many guys can do that?

Bottom line is this: You can get 30 guys to do what Bryan Thomas can do on a football field. But there are maybe 3 or 4 guys who can do what McGraw does.

[jetgreen13]

if you ask me (and not many people do) this was a bigger mistake then passing on Reed for Thomas - besides the fact that we don't know if Ed reed becomes the same caliber of player without playing under Donnie Henderson and with Ray Lewis - at least Thomas is a servicable tough starter who can play the run and the pass with great measurables and real upside -

thoughts?

bradway & edwards were not without a plan when they took thomas over reed. in hindsight, moving ellis to the middle was a mistake. i never went nuts about it. having 2 speed rushers on the field at the same time sounded real good to me too!! mcgraw can play. he, like abraham can't stay on the damn field. unless that was his rep in college i can't kill bradway for that. but IMO, ed reed is a great ballplayer donnie henderson/ray lewis not withstanding.

[RSJ]

You know it's funny but people including myself blame TB or the player himself for not being on the field enough. But look at some of the Vets on the Pats super bowl teams. Take Willie McGinest for example. He missed more games than Abe over the 4 years stretch that the coaching staff wasn't there. IMO, the coaching staff takes part of the blame for this.

[bitonti]

Here's the problem with Bryan Thomas, bit-man. He was drafted SOLELY because of his drill numbers, which is always a cause for concern. He is plum-stupid and hsn't learned a damn thing from Day One. Yes, he has improved and is a very solid DE who plays the run well. Those are the types of guys you draft in round 3 or 4.

As for McGraw, you're right and wrong, IMO. McGraw, though injury prone, is a rare and valuable player in the league--a FS who can match up on a slot receiver and then slide inside to wrestle with TE's. When you consider that Donnie was using him to lock up Randy McMichael and Antonio Gates last season--a role he'll contiunue this season--you have to consider how many guys can do that?

Bottom line is this: You can get 30 guys to do what Bryan Thomas can do on a football field. But there are maybe 3 or 4 guys who can do what McGraw does.

TomShane with all due respect i couldn't disagree more -

Thomas had very good on the field production at UAB against very good opposition like FSU. He was a sackmaster in college - and while he has not the same sack production in the NFL he gets alot of QB hurries to go with his superior production against the run - and he keeps improving - he's still a very valuable player and if the JETS cut bait there would be 10 teams interested the next day - heck Al Davis tried to trade for him on several occations - BT's problem is poor PR - people think he sucks so he must suck? meanwhile he starts in big games and he gets better every year - no way that's a bust and no way you can get that in round 3 and 4 - at least not that year

to be specific these are the DE taken in round 3 and 4 in the 2002 draft:

rd pick overall name team college

3 15 80 Will Overstreet Falcons Tennessee

3 33 98 Dennis Johnson Cardinals Kentucky

4 6 104 Alex Brown Bears Florida

4 28 126 Jarvis Green Patriots Louisiana State

see what i mean? none of those guys can hold BT's jock.

also you can discount the numbers all you want but you can count the DE in the league that ran sub 4.5 coming out on 2 hands. He ran his 10 yard dash faster and he vertical leaped higher than many Cornerbacks that year - if thats not a unique skillset i don't know what is -

as for McGraw he's had a laundry list of injuries - what he does on the field is great - when he's on the field - look at the Eagles picks these guys are tough bastards that are never injured. on the other hand McGraw might be too lanky (6'3 200) to ever make it through a season without injury -

[Savage69]

however look what he does next - takes white boy safety Jon McGraw with the 2nd round pick - um... ok... the eagles have the next two picks - they DOUBLE UP on DBs - taking Michael Lewis and Sheldon Brown - two absolute STUDS at the position.

While I agree with the Text of your post Bit is

it necessary to put the "White Boy" in?? I'm sure

you would be up in Arms if someone used a reference

of a minority like that!! Or were you simply

stating a opinion that Whites are inferior at the

Safety position??

[PatsFanTX]

You know it's funny but people including myself blame TB or the player himself for not being on the field enough. But look at some of the Vets on the Pats super bowl teams. Take Willie McGinest for example. He missed more games than Abe over the 4 years stretch that the coaching staff wasn't there. IMO, the coaching staff takes part of the blame for this.

In the four years prior to BB's arrival, McGinist missed 12 games (5 in '97 and 7 in '988).

In the last 4 years, Abe has missed 16 games (4 last year plus 2 playoff games and 9 in 2003 and 1 playoff game in 2002).

12>16?

[YJF]

TS made my points for me on Jon McGraw. You got a 6'3 safety who runs a 4.4 and can go vertical at 41 inches. Hard to bypass him in the draft. Problem with him is that he's a finesse player, great athlete, not very physical and is injury prone. People were thinking John Lynch with him but the truth is other than their skin color. The two players can not be any more different.

There's actually reverse racism by football fans.LOL They get scared of players who are "white"...LOL

I've heard Jets fans say, Stay away from Heath Miller. "We don't need another white TE."

As for Bryan Thomas. The Jets screwed that one up. I've said this a million times before but nobody ever pays attention.

If Bryan Thomas was in this years draft. He would be drafted as an OLB/Edge Rusher in The 3-4. That's what he projected to be coming out of college. He was a speed rusher coming out of UAB.

The Jets made the mistake of drafting Thomas and then trying to make him a 4-3 DE. They had put him put on weight. Since college, He has gained over 20 pounds. The extra weight and body change caused him to get sick and injured in his rookie year.

Most importantly, The extra weight negated and took away Thomas's best virtue. His speed.

If he was at 245, He'd be a speed rushing demon like say a Robert Mathis type with The Colts. Instead, He's been beefed up to 270 pounds. He's improved his strength alot since coming out of college. He was suspect against the run in college. Now he's actually very good against the run because he's a much stronger player than he was coming out of UAB but he lost his speed by gaining all that weight.

Thomas would have been a McGinest/Vrabel type in the right scheme with the right team. Jets handled this draft pick poorly. They shouldn't have taken him.

[RSJ]

In the four years prior to BB's arrival, McGinist missed 12 games (5 in '97 and 7 in '988).

In the last 4 years, Abe has missed 16 games (4 last year plus 2 playoff games and 9 in 2003 and 1 playoff game in 2002).

12>16?

I know math isn't taught in Texas but a 4 game difference is not that huge and can be considered comparable. It is about a 6% difference.

[4HCrew]

Bit you know I respect your opinion but...I think Ed Reed is a true game breaker and perennial pro bowler compared to Bryan Thomas who has now become serviceable, with his strength stopping the run. I think McGraw's injury bug keeps killing him but the job he did in the playoffs this year was impressive. I think McGraw will flourish in this defense while the Jets are stuck tagging Abe since Thomas cannot hold his spot or generate a substantial pass rush from his side.

[PatsFanTX]

I know math isn't taught in Texas but a 4 game difference is not that huge and can be considered comparable. It is about a 6% difference.

I sent gg a PM to ask her to do the math for me. :wink:

McGinist has never missed a playoff game.

Abe has missed 75% of Jet playoff games over the last 3 years.

I just think you used a poor choice in trying to compare the McGinist situation to that of Abe.

[RSJ]

If Bryan Thomas was in this years draft. He would be drafted as an OLB/Edge Rusher in The 3-4. That's what he projected to be coming out of college. He was a speed rusher coming out of UAB.

The Jets made the mistake of drafting Thomas and then trying to make him a 4-3 DE. They had put him put on weight. Since college, He has gained over 20 pounds. The extra weight and body change caused him to get sick and injured in his rookie year.

Are you saying the coaching staff made the mistake of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole?

[RSJ]

I sent gg a PM to ask her to do the math for me. :wink:

McGinist has never missed a playoff game.

Abe has missed 75% of Jet playoff games over the last 3 years.

I just think you used a poor choice in trying to compare the McGinist situation to that of Abe.

I was just kidding with the jab btw.

But I still think it is a good comparison. Don't look at the numbers of abe vs mcginist per se. Look at the difference in how much mcginist was on the field when carroll was there and then BB and Parcells. I think the same can be said for other Pats players during that time peiod and then after.

[YJF]

Are you saying the coaching staff made the mistake of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole?

YES. In so many words. I remember Teddy C saying that Thomas would be a double digit sack guy. Teddy C and our awful former d-line coach Ruben Carter did a miserable job with our young defensive lineman.

The Jets drafted a speed rusher and tried to make him a run stopper. Mission accomplished. except he can't rush the passer anymore.

It's very easy to figure out why. Line him up at the 40 yard dash now. See what Bryan Thomas runs. It won't be a 4.4, I'll tell you that.

Put 30 pounds on Dwight Freeney's body. I bet ya he slows down.

[RSJ]

YES. In so many words. I remember Teddy C saying that Thomas would be a double digit sack guy. Teddy C and our awful former d-line coach Ruben Carter did a miserable job with our young defensive lineman.

The Jets drafted a speed rusher and tried to make him a run stopper. Mission accomplished. except he can't rush the passer anymore.

It's very easy to figure out why. Line him up at the 40 yard dash now. See what Bryan Thomas runs. It won't be a 4.4, I'll tell you that.

Put 30 pounds on Dwight Freeney's body. I bet ya he slows down.

You are 100% right and that was an excelent post too btw.

[TomShane]

Bit, you're talking about a "sackmaster in college" that has 3 career NFL sacks that was drafted in the first round 3 years ago. I don't want to get into a hindsight deal like I knew Thomas was going to be a bust, but, IMO, Thomas is no more than a rotational DE that has performed like a street free agent. While he's not a liability at all, he's making 3 mil a year to be a 'solid' rotation guy. That, my friend, is a bust. Whether the dude runs 4.5/40 or not is immaterial when you consider that he uses it to hold up the end of a line a la Aaron Kampman. Basically, we have a $3 million dollar, first round drafted Aaron Kampman with motivation issues. Is he a unique athlete? Probably. But there are alot of "unique athletes" pumping gas for a living. He has to sh*t or get off the pot at some point and we're going into Year 4 still unable to let go of the cancerous John Abraham because no one trusts Thomas to get the job done, my man.

And, not to nitpick, Alex Brown (4th round, 2002) has 14 career sacks and 5 forced fumbles to his credit, while arguably playing the run just as well as Thomas does (118 tackles for Brown, 59 for Thomas).

[YJF]

Bit, you're talking about a "sackmaster in college" that has 3 career NFL sacks that was drafted in the first round 3 years ago. I don't want to get into a hindsight deal like I knew Thomas was going to be a bust, but, IMO, Thomas is no more than a rotational DE that has performed like a street free agent. While he's not a liability at all, he's making 3 mil a year to be a 'solid' rotation guy. That, my friend, is a bust. Whether the dude runs 4.5/40 or not is immaterial when you consider that he uses it to hold up the end of a line a la Aaron Kampman. Basically, we have a $3 million dollar, first round drafted Aaron Kampman with motivation issues. Is he a unique athlete? Probably. But there are alot of "unique athletes" pumping gas for a living. He has to Sh#t or get off the pot at some point and we're going into Year 4 still unable to let go of the cancerous John Abraham because no one trusts Thomas to get the job done, my man.

And, not to nitpick, Alex Brown (4th round, 2002) has 14 career sacks and 5 forced fumbles to his credit, while arguably playing the run just as well as Thomas does (118 tackles for Brown, 59 for Thomas).

I don't blame Bryan Thomas. The Jets FO screwed this one up. They took a 245 pound pass rushing demon and turned him into a 270 pound run stuffing DE.

The Jets picked the wrong player and put him in the wrong scheme. That's the bottom line. At 270 pounds, He wouldn't run a 4.4 with a jetpack on and the wind at his back.

[TomShane]

The Jets drafted a speed rusher and tried to make him a run stopper. Mission accomplished. except he can't rush the passer anymore.

It's very easy to figure out why. Line him up at the 40 yard dash now. See what Bryan Thomas runs. It won't be a 4.4, I'll tell you that.

Put 30 pounds on Dwight Freeney's body. I bet ya he slows down.

Ouch. Good point, YJF. But as to McGraw, I think he's a physical guy, but I don't think he's grown into his body just yet. He looks like he plays at about 200 pounds when it's all said and done, and needs to get up to about 220 to stay healthy. He throws that skinny body around all the time and shreds his joints. IMO, even if he gets up to 220, he can still be an effective player, and healthier.

And rsherry, you're absolutely right about players malingering under Herm's watch. The proof? John Lott, one of the most respected strength trainers in the entire league, ran screaming from the Jets organization this off-season because he hated how soft Herm was with the players. Lott wanted to work them harder to get them back on the field, and Herm would constantly balk. All you need to do is look at the way Herm handled the ABe and Santana Moss situations to see how weak Herm is with players who don't like to play hurt. It's almost comical.

[PatsFanTX]

The Jets picked the wrong player and put him in the wrong scheme.

Can anybody else out there picture Bryan Thomas in BB's 3-4 scheme?

[YJF]

Ouch. Good point, YJF. But as to McGraw, I think he's a physical guy, but I don't think he's grown into his body just yet. He looks like he plays at about 200 pounds when it's all said and done, and needs to get up to about 220 to stay healthy. He throws that skinny body around all the time and shreds his joints. IMO, even if he gets up to 220, he can still be an effective player, and healthier.

And rsherry, you're absolutely right about players malingering under Herm's watch. The proof? John Lott, one of the most respected strength trainers in the entire league, ran screaming from the Jets organization this off-season because he hated how soft Herm was with the players. Lott wanted to work them harder to get them back on the field, and Herm would constantly balk. All you need to do is look at the way Herm handled the ABe and Santana Moss situations to see how weak Herm is with players who don't like to play hurt. It's almost comical.

I gotta jump in on this Herm/John Lott stuff.

I just saw my team have a QB play the entire 2nd half of the season with a damaged right throwing shoulder.

I watched Kevin Mawae play with a club on his hand. Pete Kendall played the 2nd half of last season hobbled. He was in alot of pain down the stretch.

It's different for skill position players and offensive lineman though.

John Abraham couldn't play last year. He was in a 6 to 8 week injury that was only in it's 6th week when The Jets played Pittsburgh in the playoffs. He was legitimately hurt. Tried to practice, staff decided that he couldn't play. He would have been useless in those two playoff games. Totally ineffective.

I think if The Jets would have made it to the superbowl. Abraham would have been ready to play. He wasn't when we played Pittsburgh.

I don't blame injuries on Lott or Herm. Abraham and Pennington have been hurt alot the last two years. Not throwing that at Lott's feet or Herm's. It happens.

I've seen players play hurt with The Jets. Not an issue with me.

[jetgreen13]

Can anybody else out there picture Bryan Thomas in BB's 3-4 scheme?

nope, but i can't picture you at a patriot forum either. 8-[

[Savage69]

I don't blame injuries on Lott or Herm. Abraham and Pennington have been hurt alot the last two years. Not throwing that at Lott's feet or Herm's. It happens.

Some players just have a injury Bug when they

hit the Pro's..Marvin Jones was hurt in his

first couple of years and never became what he

was in College..Penny has been hurt alot as Abe

has..By the same token Martin was hurt alot in

College and has been a Iron Man in the Pro's..

Bo Jackson and so many others never realized

their full potential because of injuries..

McGraw seems always to be hurt as Strait was

last year!No one to Blame..Sheet happens!

[Barton]

Bryan Thomas is an average defensive end. At that time we badly needed secondary help (and still do). Ed Reed made the most sense because he filled our need. Drafting Bryan Thomas over Ed Reed still stings and it will until both careers are over and Ed Reed is inducted in the Hall of Fame and Bryan Thomas is found sorting through green trash bags behind dunkin donuts with white powder all over his face.

[RSJ]

I gotta jump in on this Herm/John Lott stuff.

I just saw my team have a QB play the entire 2nd half of the season with a damaged right throwing shoulder.

I watched Kevin Mawae play with a club on his hand. Pete Kendall played the 2nd half of last season hobbled. He was in alot of pain down the stretch.

It's different for skill position players and offensive lineman though.

John Abraham couldn't play last year. He was in a 6 to 8 week injury that was only in it's 6th week when The Jets played Pittsburgh in the playoffs. He was legitimately hurt. Tried to practice, staff decided that he couldn't play. He would have been useless in those two playoff games. Totally ineffective.

I think if The Jets would have made it to the superbowl. Abraham would have been ready to play. He wasn't when we played Pittsburgh.

I don't blame injuries on Lott or Herm. Abraham and Pennington have been hurt alot the last two years. Not throwing that at Lott's feet or Herm's. It happens.

I've seen players play hurt with The Jets. Not an issue with me.

Well I think you are getting a little off topic here. The problem isn't players playing injured verse players not playing injured alone. The issue is really the guys who are not seriously injured and cleared by the doctors not playing. Don't kid yourself the coach has the power to get knicked up players that can physically play on the field.

[bitonti]

Bryan Thomas is an average defensive end. At that time we badly needed secondary help (and still do). Ed Reed made the most sense because he filled our need. Drafting Bryan Thomas over Ed Reed still stings ...

you all are missing the point - the JETS could have gotten the secondary help they needed with either BROWN or LEWIS - both of whom are STUDS and both of whom were taken 1, 2 after McGraw -

mark my words if the JETS had Michael Lewis instead of Jon McGraw no one would be crying about missing out on Ed Reed.

[TomShane]

you all are missing the point - the JETS could have gotten the secondary help they needed with either BROWN or LEWIS - both of whom are STUDS and both of whom were taken 1, 2 after McGraw -

mark my words if the JETS had Michael Lewis instead of Jon McGraw no one would be crying about missing out on Ed Reed.

IMO, all Eagles DB's are over-hyped because of that insane pass rush that Jim Johnson cooks up. If McGraw was an Eagles safety he'd be ticketed for the Hall of Fame.

[bitonti]

IMO, all Eagles DB's are over-hyped because of that insane pass rush that Jim Johnson cooks up. If McGraw was an Eagles safety he'd be ticketed for the Hall of Fame.

you can't make the hall of fame from the trainers table

[TomShane]

you can't make the hall of fame from the trainers table

Well, I'm rubber and you're glue.

[Barton]

you all are missing the point - the JETS could have gotten the secondary help they needed with either BROWN or LEWIS - both of whom are STUDS and both of whom were taken 1, 2 after McGraw -

mark my words if the JETS had Michael Lewis instead of Jon McGraw no one would be crying about missing out on Ed Reed.

I know what you meant. :wink:

[bitonti]

Well, I'm rubber and you're glue.

nicely played

[YJF]

[quote name='"YoungJetsFan

quote']

Well I think you are getting a little off topic here. The problem isn't players playing injured verse players not playing injured alone. The issue is really the guys who are not seriously injured and cleared by the doctors not playing. Don't kid yourself the coach has the power to get knicked up players that can physically play on the field.

Abraham was seriously injured. That's the problem here. Most people have been mis-informed on that situation.

Doctors cleared him to try and practice. Not to play.

The week of the playoff game vs The Steelers, Abraham was sent back to Dr. James Andrews in Alabama. Andrews said that he was in the 6th week of an 8 week injury.

John Abraham couldn't physically play. That's the bottom line. He wasn't ready yet. He tried to practice and the entire staff saw that he wasn't ready to play yet. He could have put on uinform and modeled the uni but he wouldn't have been effective and would have done long term damage to himself had he played. Abraham was hurt and would have been ineffective.

[RSJ]

Abraham was seriously injured. That's the problem here. Most people have been mis-informed on that situation.

Doctors cleared him to try and practice. Not to play.

The week of the playoff game vs The Steelers, Abraham was sent back to Dr. James Andrews in Alabama. Andrews said that he was in the 6th week of an 8 week injury.

John Abraham couldn't physically play. That's the bottom line. He wasn't ready yet. He tried to practice and the entire staff saw that he wasn't ready to play yet. He could have put on uinform and modeled the uni but he wouldn't have been effective and would have done long term damage to himself had he played. Abraham was hurt and would have been ineffective.

Really, so the doctors cleared Martin to play with 2 broken ankles or chad with a torn cuff but wouldn't clear Abe to play? BTW, who said Abes injury was serious? You are saying some players play hurt and some don't and I agree. But the coach can also make it miserable for a player and embarassing for him if he doesn't play.

[jetgreen13]

you can't make the hall of fame from the trainers table

you can make the hall of fame if your name is ed reed.

[bitonti]

you can make the hall of fame if your name is ed reed.

Thomas isn't Ed Reed but he's not trash - admittedly the JETS should have taken Reed - but they also could have taken Mike Rumph who is a complete bust and every draftnik in the country had him going to the NYJ - my point is yeah the 1st round pick wasn't great but the 2nd round pick was worse - at least Thomas has some value - every year Jon McGraw is supposed to be a difference maker in the secondary and every year he dissapoints - Thomas is what he is - a solid starter with upside that can step in when Johnny Abe goes on a bender or pulls his pu$$y muscle - you will find no arguments from me on the point that Ed Reed would have been a better pick -

my point is that if Terry had done better in the 2nd round the JETS wouldn't still be looking for secondary help (at least not as much)

another point if Jon MCGraw wasn't such an injury prone player we wouldn't have had to sit through Damien Robinson, Ty Carter, Reggie Tongue and whoever else they parade through the position.