2021 QB competition

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

7 hours ago, Warfish said:

There is also not a shred of proof that facing more competition, and maybe not just winning the job by default, or even sitting early, wouldn't have helped them.  The best Jets QB of the past 30 years had real competition and sat before starting.

Which is why this is a pure speculation/opinion question.  There is no objectively true answer here, it's all theory and opinion.

No stress tho, the majority has clearly spoken, and said loud and clear that competition isn't just not needed, it's a seriously bad idea, and anointing a draft pick as the day 1 starter before he's taken a snap on an NFL practice field is apparently the best practice.

Fair enough.  Not a hill I feel like dying on rhetorically today.

 

Still trying to figure out who this "best QB" over the past 30 years is who had competition?  Enlighten me (and us)? 

[jetsons]

14 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Wilson gets every rep and is handed the job.  No need for a dog and pony show.  Do u think Trevor Lawrence is competing in Jax?

He was the number 2 pick in the draft and is uber talented.  Hes already the starter.

Just like your namesake was ordained the #1 QB when he arrived to the Jets after being drafted #1 (AFL) in '65...  Wilson Will Be Ordained The Same after being drafted #2 (NFL) in '21. 

[jetsons]

13 hours ago, Bronx said:

It's called due diligence.

That was already done... That's why Wilson was drafted & Darnold traded. 

[jetsons]

4 hours ago, Savage69 said:

I disagree I'm not the Darksider I'm sensible and sane..LOL

I'm just here because of your avatar. ?

[jgb]

9 hours ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Oh, well, if you say so, I guess it must be 

I actually thought you may be joking. Darnold should give Gase a cut of that 5th year option money. The only reason he is getting this chance is because Gase's reputation is so bad. As usual with Sam, the case for him has nothing to do with him -- beyond being a "good kid" -- and is completely focused on his situation. Do you know who else you can expect to rank dead last in QB rankings in a bad situation? Bad quarterbacks. And yes, I do believe two years from now GMs and commentators are going to be wondering why the Panthers handed a Darnold an undeserved $19M and another chance to start while the NFL made Trubisky -- who has been 100x the QB Darnold has -- earn it again. It's ridiculous and indefensible really. But hey, there's an 85% chance Darnold is the highest paid backup QB in the NFL next year. So good for him, I guess.

Anyway, you asked the question and I answered it. Little surprised by your dismissive response.

[Biggs]

22 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Wilson gets every rep and is handed the job.  No need for a dog and pony show.  Do u think Trevor Lawrence is competing in Jax?

He was the number 2 pick in the draft and is uber talented.  Hes already the starter.

I agree with the every rep.  If he gets every rep and can't run the O he can't start day 1.   That's counter productive to his and the teams development.  

[Dunnie]

... because gifting the position to Sanchez and Darnold worked out so well...



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[Flea Flicking Frank]

2 hours ago, jgb said:

I actually thought you may be joking. Darnold should give Gase a cut of that 5th year option money. The only reason he is getting this chance is because Gase's reputation is so bad. As usual with Sam, the case for him has nothing to do with him -- beyond being a "good kid" -- and is completely focused on his situation. Do you know who else you can expect to rank dead last in QB rankings in a bad situation? Bad quarterbacks. And yes, I do believe two years from now GMs and commentators are going to be wondering why the Panthers handed a Darnold an undeserved $19M and another chance to start while the NFL made Trubisky -- who has been 100x the QB Darnold has -- earn it again. It's ridiculous and indefensible really. But hey, there's an 85% chance Darnold is the highest paid backup QB in the NFL next year. So good for him, I guess.

Anyway, you asked the question and I answered it. Little surprised by your dismissive response.

You are awesome my man, I love how you can so clearly pick out the good sh*t from the bad sh*t. 

[jgb]

14 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

You are awesome my man, I love how you can so clearly pick out the good sh*t from the bad sh*t. 

Lol. You should save that praise for those who still believe in Sam. They are masters of that!

I will -- and should -- be held to account if I'm so loudly wrong that Trubisky has rebound potential. But we know how the Internet works. The narrative will be that I was totally "wrong" if Trubisky doesn't rebound and become "the next Tannehill" when -- I think -- I've been clear. "Potential" isn't a guarantee and do not think and have not said that Trubisky is or will be "a stud." I've said he has the chance to be "a poor man's Ryan Tannehill" and is an excellent risk/reward move by the Bills. Also a good move by Trubisky to (if the reports are true) take less money to go to Buffalo with a system that fits him very well. But nuance and the Internet don't mix. 

Of course, if he does rebound, the revisionists will say it wasn't really going out of a limb to call it because he "made a Pro Bowl as an alternate in 2018."  

[Warfish]

10 hours ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Still trying to figure out who this "best QB" over the past 30 years is who had competition?  Enlighten me (and us)? 

I would think it should be obvious to most Jets Fans.

In 2000 Chad Pennington (who is IMO unquestionably the best Jets QB in the 30 year period between 1991-2021) was drafted 18th overall in the 1st round of the NFL Draft.  Chad was not anointed the day 1 starting QB the way Sanchez, Darnold and (presumably now) Wilson were.  He faced legitimate competition in the form of an the veteran post-Achilles-blowout 14th-season Vinny Testaverde.  Vinny was the better QB in both 2000 and 2001, and started both seasons.  Chad did not take over as Jets starter until 2002.

As I've said, this isn't the hill I feel like dying on today.  It's clear the majority here don't value competition the same way I do, and believe a #2 pick QB should not have to compete to be named the starting QB.  Fine, I accept that is generally how the NFL works and what most fans prefer to see happen.  

[Flea Flicking Frank]

12 minutes ago, jgb said:

Lol. You should save that praise for those who still believe in Sam. They are masters of that!

I will -- and should -- be held to account if I'm so loudly wrong that Trubisky has rebound potential. But we know how the Internet works. The narrative will be that I was totally "wrong" if Trubisky doesn't rebound and become "the next Tannehill" when -- I think -- I've been clear. "Potential" isn't a guarantee and do not think and have not said that Trubisky is or will be "a stud." I've said he has the chance to be "a poor man's Ryan Tannehill" and is an excellent risk/reward move by the Bills. Also a good move by Trubisky to (if the reports are true) take less money to go to Buffalo with a system that fits him very well. But nuance and the Internet don't mix. 

Of course, if he does rebound, the revisionists will say it wasn't really going out of a limb to call it because he "made a Pro Bowl as an alternate in 2018."  

 

I am honestly trying to see the difference between you with Trubisky and those who still believe in Sam. You have great criticism for those folks.

 

[slats]

Just now, Warfish said:

As I've said, this isn't the hill I feel like dying on today.  It's clear the majority here don't value competition the same way I do, and believe a #2 pick QB should not have to compete to be named the starting QB.  Fine, I accept that is generally how the NFL works and what most fans prefer to see happen.  

I think it’s just not the reality that Wilson and the Jets find themselves in. Ideally, there’d be a Vinny Testaverde on the roster for him to compete with/learn from, but the Jets don’t have that QB. I’d love to have the 49ers or Patriots situations, where the rookie could conceivably sit the whole year. In fact, I had thought that the Jets would do what the Bears did if they were going to draft a QB; bring in Dalton. But they made the conscious decision not to do that. I don’t know if they thought being coy at the position was gonna help their trade value for Darnold or the #2, but they opted to let the free agent QB market dry up. 
 
Seems to me that the culture Saleh’s looking to build is that of a young group of coaches and players all learning on the job together. All growing together. The QB spot has the highest profile, but the WRs, RBs, and secondary are all in the same boat. 
 
Having Wilson and Morgan splitting time with the ones wouldn’t be any real sort of competition. You understand this. All it would be is wasting valuable reps Wilson needs to prepare to be the starter.  

[Jetluv58]

17 hours ago, Bronx said:

The case with the NY Jets, none of them are proven. You don't handle the keys at the start of training camp. You have to evaluate all avenues. What if Morgan outshines Wilson? Is that a possibility? If so, did JD get it right by drafting him or wrong by drafting Wilson. There should be competition, and if I was White or Morgan, I'll be working my butt off trying to beat Wilson for the starting job.

 

 

Not going to happen. White and Morgan will ride the pine while the kid shines. 

[jgb]

19 hours ago, Warfish said:

There is also not a shred of proof that facing more competition, and maybe not just winning the job by default, or even sitting early, wouldn't have helped them.  The best Jets QB of the past 30 years had real competition and sat before starting.

Which is why this is a pure speculation/opinion question.  There is no objectively true answer here, it's all theory and opinion.

No stress tho, the majority has clearly spoken, and said loud and clear that competition isn't just not needed, it's a seriously bad idea, and anointing a draft pick as the day 1 starter before he's taken a snap on an NFL practice field is apparently the best practice.

Fair enough.  Not a hill I feel like dying on rhetorically today.

 

I don't really care about whether competition does or does not increase the chances of a QB succeeding. I just want to find the best QB we can. How else does one determine that without a competition? It's why I want a vet in there as a legitimate comparator. I will root like Hell for Wilson to convincingly show his superiority. It may well be true that facing competition does not change a rookie QB's development path. But one thing is certain: if a QB's development is hindered by having to "earn it," it's pretty good early evidence that he probably doesn't have it anyway. How can you feel good about a QB in pressure situations if he gets dejected by not being handed the job?

[jgb]

12 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

 

I am honestly trying to see the difference between you with Trubisky and those who still believe in Sam. You have great criticism for those folks.

 

I think the better question for them is why is Sam at $19M a better bet than Trubisky at $2.5M.

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, jgb said:

I think the better question for them is why is Sam at $19M a better bet than Trubisky at $2.5M.

Market inefficiency at its finest.  Starting QB's, even sh*tty ones, make big bucks and backup QB's, even quality QB2's, do not. 

Trubisky could have probably made more elsewhere but he opted for a good situation over a chance to start at a bad spot.  Not the worst idea by he and his agent, for sure.

[jgb]

20 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Market inefficiency at its finest.  Starting QB's, even sh*tty ones, make big bucks and backup QB's, even quality QB2's, do not. 

Trubisky could have probably made more elsewhere but he opted for a good situation over a chance to start at a bad spot.  Not the worst idea by he and his agent, for sure.

Still stunning that they exercised that 5th year. This is going to cost jobs in CAR.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

3 hours ago, jgb said:

I think the better question for them is why is Sam at $19M a better bet than Trubisky at $2.5M.

Thats some fine deflection right there. Not sure what any of this has to do with money at all. You clearly have stated in multiple ways that you think Trubisky is a good QB, and went so far as to say GM's are going to wonder how the hell they missed him.

My posts have been around this concept that Sam is sh*t, was sh*t, always will be sh*t, but somehow Trubisky is going to be good argument you have made multiple times. I still don't understand how you can pick out good sh*t from bad sh*t. 

I assume its trolling, but maybe you are just a QB guru that knows more than the avg fan

[jgb]

14 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Thats some fine deflection right there. Not sure what any of this has to do with money at all. You clearly have stated in multiple ways that you think Trubisky is a good QB, and went so far as to say GM's are going to wonder how the hell they missed him.

My posts have been around this concept that Sam is sh*t, was sh*t, always will be sh*t, but somehow Trubisky is going to be good argument you have made multiple times. I still don't understand how you can pick out good sh*t from bad sh*t. 

I assume its trolling, but maybe you are just a QB guru that knows more than the avg fan

Not going to go through and explain -- again -- what my position is. It's all over these boards and spelled out explicitly in this very thread. You're entitled to your own opinion but not to mine.

[Bronx]

4 hours ago, Warfish said:

I would think it should be obvious to most Jets Fans.

In 2000 Chad Pennington (who is IMO unquestionably the best Jets QB in the 30 year period between 1991-2021) was drafted 18th overall in the 1st round of the NFL Draft.  Chad was not anointed the day 1 starting QB the way Sanchez, Darnold and (presumably now) Wilson were.  He faced legitimate competition in the form of an the veteran post-Achilles-blowout 14th-season Vinny Testaverde.  Vinny was the better QB in both 2000 and 2001, and started both seasons.  Chad did not take over as Jets starter until 2002.

As I've said, this isn't the hill I feel like dying on today.  It's clear the majority here don't value competition the same way I do, and believe a #2 pick QB should not have to compete to be named the starting QB.  Fine, I accept that is generally how the NFL works and what most fans prefer to see happen.  

I will summarize it, millennialism. On the other hand, the way the staff has spoken so far, it's all about Zach. Lafleur did mentioned all 3 QBs briefly on his press.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

Not going to go through and explain -- again -- what my position is. It's all over these boards and spelled out explicitly in this very thread. You're entitled to your own opinion but not to mine.

I know your opinion, that Trubisky is going to be so good that GM's are going to be kicking themselves for passing on him.

You concluded this in a way I don't understand, and I pointed that out. You have been one of the more vocal Darnold is and always was trash and always will be trash, and get those cute little thumbs up every time you post one of those awsome posts.

Yet somehow Trubisky who has sucked longer is somehow going to be really good. I pointed out I found that conclusion tough to comprehend, and looked for reasons, and you deflected.

Im trying to understand your logic, since you have been so vocal. You still havent presented that logic, but you sure have racked up the up votes from the youngsters.

[Bronx]

10 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I know your opinion, that Trubisky is going to be so good that GM's are going to be kicking themselves for passing on him.

You concluded this in a way I don't understand, and I pointed that out. You have been one of the more vocal Darnold is and always was trash and always will be trash, and get those cute little thumbs up every time you post one of those awsome posts.

Yet somehow Trubisky who has sucked longer is somehow going to be really good. I pointed out I found that conclusion tough to comprehend, and looked for reasons, and you deflected.

Im trying to understand your logic, since you have been so vocal. You still havent presented that logic, but you sure have racked up the up votes from the youngsters.

Neither Trubisky or Darnold are on the current roster. The real question/statement should be: who gives a fudge?! (rated PG).

 

[JohnnyLV]

5 hours ago, Warfish said:

I would think it should be obvious to most Jets Fans.

In 2000 Chad Pennington (who is IMO unquestionably the best Jets QB in the 30 year period between 1991-2021) was drafted 18th overall in the 1st round of the NFL Draft.  Chad was not anointed the day 1 starting QB the way Sanchez, Darnold and (presumably now) Wilson were.  He faced legitimate competition in the form of an the veteran post-Achilles-blowout 14th-season Vinny Testaverde.  Vinny was the better QB in both 2000 and 2001, and started both seasons.  Chad did not take over as Jets starter until 2002.

As I've said, this isn't the hill I feel like dying on today.  It's clear the majority here don't value competition the same way I do, and believe a #2 pick QB should not have to compete to be named the starting QB.  Fine, I accept that is generally how the NFL works and what most fans prefer to see happen.  

I guess I would like to understand how a rookie QB competing against a veteran makes him better. I just don't see a connection

[Dunnie]

I guess I would like to understand how a rookie QB competing against a veteran makes him better. I just don't see a connection

Rookie competing against scrub vet backup should win the job. And he will have earned it... if not ge knows he has a bunch of work to do.... it's a simple concept ... you get what you earn.

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[JohnnyLV]

28 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

Rookie competing against scrub vet backup should win the job. And he will have earned it... if not ge knows he has a bunch of work to do.... it's a simple concept ... you get what you earn.

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Don't agree with that. On any level. Splitting reps with a veteran does nothing to help a young QB especially in an imaginary "competition"

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Bronx said:

Neither Trubisky or Darnold are on the current roster. The real question/statement should be: who gives a fudge?! (rated PG).

 

All good. We all have opinions. Feels nice when people feel the need to mischaracterize mine to have a chance!

[Flea Flicking Frank]

2 hours ago, Bronx said:

Neither Trubisky or Darnold are on the current roster. The real question/statement should be: who gives a fudge?! (rated PG).

 

Yeah, I tend to agree, but nothing is going on, so why not call out some hypocrisy?

[Dunnie]

Don't agree with that. On any level. Splitting reps with a veteran does nothing to help a young QB especially in an imaginary "competition"

It's ok to have a diff take ... I completely disagree with you... handing the job to a kid that is not ready has backfired repeatedly for the Jets ... the definition of insanity is repeating the same mistake repeatedly

If Wilson cannot beat out a scrub ... he should not start.

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[Jet Nut]

On 5/28/2021 at 9:25 AM, Warfish said:

I would think it should be obvious to most Jets Fans.

In 2000 Chad Pennington (who is IMO unquestionably the best Jets QB in the 30 year period between 1991-2021) was drafted 18th overall in the 1st round of the NFL Draft.  Chad was not anointed the day 1 starting QB the way Sanchez, Darnold and (presumably now) Wilson were.  He faced legitimate competition in the form of an the veteran post-Achilles-blowout 14th-season Vinny Testaverde.  Vinny was the better QB in both 2000 and 2001, and started both seasons.  Chad did not take over as Jets starter until 2002.

As I've said, this isn't the hill I feel like dying on today.  It's clear the majority here don't value competition the same way I do, and believe a #2 pick QB should not have to compete to be named the starting QB.  Fine, I accept that is generally how the NFL works and what most fans prefer to see happen.  

I agree with your evaluation of Chad

But theres a huge difference between 2000 and 2021.  Chad wasnt drafted to start, Wilson was.  2000 college football is lightyears behind 2020 college football.  Offenses are wide open when 20 years ago there weren't.  QBs coming out of college today are far more advanced than they were in 2000.  Throw in that there was a starting QB in place and it makes sense that Chad sat 

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

On 5/28/2021 at 9:25 AM, Warfish said:

I would think it should be obvious to most Jets Fans.

In 2000 Chad Pennington (who is IMO unquestionably the best Jets QB in the 30 year period between 1991-2021) was drafted 18th overall in the 1st round of the NFL Draft.  Chad was not anointed the day 1 starting QB the way Sanchez, Darnold and (presumably now) Wilson were.  He faced legitimate competition in the form of an the veteran post-Achilles-blowout 14th-season Vinny Testaverde.  Vinny was the better QB in both 2000 and 2001, and started both seasons.  Chad did not take over as Jets starter until 2002.

As I've said, this isn't the hill I feel like dying on today.  It's clear the majority here don't value competition the same way I do, and believe a #2 pick QB should not have to compete to be named the starting QB.  Fine, I accept that is generally how the NFL works and what most fans prefer to see happen.  

While I agree that Pennington was the 2nd best QB in Jets history, that view is not shared by many on this board.  However, your comment about him "competing" with Testaverde is just wrong and never happened. Testaverde was the established and clear cut starter in 2000 preseason, without question, after coming off a stellar year in 98. The injury in 99 did nothing to change that.  Pennington was luxury  draft pick after the K Johnson trade and was an investment in the future.  There was never a mention or a thought that Pennington would unseat Testaverde in 2000.  The same was true in 2001, even though Testaverde did not have a great season in 2000.  The issue was ripe in 2002, but if you recall, Edwards criticized Pennington in training camp as being too "robotic" or something like that.  When Testaverde crapped the bed in early 2002, Edwards made the switch.  There is no established starting QB on the roster to compete with Wilson. He took all the reps in OTAs and will continue to do so in training camp.  

[Jet Nut]

On 5/28/2021 at 9:51 AM, jgb said:

I think the better question for them is why is Sam at $19M a better bet than Trubisky at $2.5M.

Im going to guess that when people see Darnold they see the QB that most ranked as the best since Luck, who's only 23 and people still think can develop

When people look at Trubisky they see a QB who with a half season or so of college production was overdrafted and has proven out all the fears over problems to his game when he came out of NC and after 5 years havent been eliminated. 

More to the point Darnold is a starting QB and Trubisky isnt.

[Dunnie]

While I agree that Pennington was the 2nd best QB in Jets history, that view is not shared by many on this board.  However, your comment about him "competing" with Testaverde is just wrong and never happened. Testaverde was the established and clear cut starter in 2000 preseason, without question, after coming off a stellar year in 98. The injury in 99 did nothing to change that.  Pennington was luxury  draft pick after the K Johnson trade and was an investment in the future.  There was never a mention or a thought that Pennington would unseat Testaverde in 2000.  The same was true in 2001, even though Testaverde did not have a great season in 2000.  The issue was ripe in 2002, but if you recall, Edwards criticized Pennington in training camp as being too "robotic" or something like that.  When Testaverde crapped the bed in early 2002, Edwards made the switch.  There is no established starting QB on the roster to compete with Wilson. He took all the reps in OTAs and will continue to do so in training camp.  

While I love Vinnie .. because he had a big arm and was Vinnie ... the guy was never more than average.

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[section314]

8 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

I agree with your evaluation of Chad

But theres a huge difference between 2000 and 2021.  Chad wasnt drafted to start, Wilson was.  2000 college football is lightyears behind 2020 college football.  Offenses are wide open when 20 years ago there weren't.  QBs coming out of college today are far more advanced than they were in 2000.  Throw in that there was a starting QB in place and it makes sense that Chad sat 

You really think so? I think the guys today are way more one dimensional. They are never under center, run gimmick offenses, if the first guy isn't open, tuck and run. They don't have to read defenses.

[Mogglez]

On 5/28/2021 at 8:22 AM, Dunnie said:

... because gifting the position to Sanchez and Darnold worked out so well...



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Sanchez was put into one of, if not, THE best situations to succeed/develop and still failed to become the franchise QB we envisioned him becoming.  

This idea that Mark failed because he was “given” the job has gotta die out.  2012 was the only year where you could legitimately say “yeah, they didn’t really help him”.  He had 3 years to develop with a dominant defense, strong running game, and more than adequate weapons.

[Embrace the Suck]

On 5/27/2021 at 8:42 AM, Warfish said:

Wilson, unlike so many of our 'anointed future-bust' QB's, MUST EARN his starting job.

This is just masturbation with regard to some ideal of a meritocracy. Earn his starting job? How? By splitting reps with two guys who were on the roster previously who if they had a shot in hell the Jets wouldn't have drafted ZW to begin with? Or by bringing in some has been vet and wasting valuable reps in practice on a dog and pony show for the public? Maybe offer Fitztragic a second chance? ZW needs all the reps he can get. He earned the starting job when the new administration saw him as a perfect fit and decided to pick him number two overall. The Jets are committed to ZW as the starter at this point. If the Jets had a Farve Rodgers situation that would be different.