What is funnier in this Panthers 1st day of mini camp article?

[jgb]

Just now, Jet Nut said:

Except that wasnt Darnolds pass.  

 

[genot]

16 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

OK now do all the INT's he's thrown into heavy traffic, behind receivers, in the red zone, etc. over the course of his career.

He showed a video blaming an interception on Darnold. It was right in his hands. Of course a lot of the interceptions we're his fault. Didn't have much help out there though. That's why Perriman is gone, and our OC wants Mims to run better routes. The only accomplished WR he had last year was Crowder. He did rather well. Hobbled by injury, half the year.

[genot]

3 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Except that wasnt Darnolds pass.  

 

Lol. No it wasn't. Assumed that it was clips od Darnold. Wasn't paying attention to jersey numbers.

[jgb]

8 minutes ago, genot said:

Lol. No it wasn't. Assumed that it was clips od Darnold. Wasn't paying attention to jersey numbers.

Just like you haven't paid attention to his performance for the last 3 years.

[genot]

3 minutes ago, jgb said:

Just like you haven't paid attention to his performance for the last 3 years.

That was very very good. Sentence of the year, for sure.

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, genot said:

He showed a video blaming an interception on Darnold. It was right in his hands. Of course a lot of the interceptions we're his fault. Didn't have much help out there though. That's why Perriman is gone, and our OC wants Mims to run better routes. The only accomplished WR he had last year was Crowder. He did rather well. Hobbled by injury, half the year.

And yet.... half retired Joe Flacco looked competent in the same bad situation while Sam Darnold pooped his pants.  

[genot]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And yet.... half retired Joe Flacco looked competent in the same bad situation while Sam Darnold pooped his pants.  

You make strong arguments most of the time. Flacco having one good game, (a game we lost), isn't very convincing. Certainly not a large enough sample size to draw any conclusions.

[jgb]

34 minutes ago, genot said:

You make strong arguments most of the time. Flacco having one good game, (a game we lost), isn't very convincing. Certainly not a large enough sample size to draw any conclusions.

But you can’t say Sam Darnold stinks after 40 games and the worst QBR of any QB in the NFL from 2018-2020. Suggest you don’t use the sample size argument.

[genot]

8 minutes ago, jgb said:

But you can’t say Sam Darnold stinks after 40 games and the worst QBR of any QB in the NFL from 2018-2020. Suggest you don’t use the sample size argument.

Completely different. 4 games isn't enough to evaluate or compare any player. You can evaluate Sam. He's certainly played enough games to form an opinion. A lot of things though go into that evaluation. That's why we have different opinions about whether he can have success in the future.

[jgb]

Just now, genot said:

Completely different. 4 games isn't enough to evaluate or compare any player. You can evaluate Sam. He's certainly played enough games to form an opinion. A lot of things though go into that evaluation. That's why we have different opinions about whether he can have success in the future.

Honestly I just see a results-based analysis 

[genot]

25 minutes ago, jgb said:

Honestly I just see a results-based analysis 

That's where opinions vary. Based on results. Sam sucks. No argument. When i consider all the variables that make a QB have success, o still believe in the right environment he can put up good numbers., and have positive results.

[chirorob]

12 hours ago, slats said:

Steve Young left a terrible Bucs team after two terrible years and then wound up doing okay with the 49ers. 

True.

It also took some time, and all time great head coach, and the all time great WR.

[jgb]

2 hours ago, genot said:

That's where opinions vary. Based on results. Sam sucks. No argument. When i consider all the variables that make a QB have success, o still believe in the right environment he can put up good numbers., and have positive results.

Sure but that line of thinking can apply to basically every bust QB drafted in the top 5 (which are invariably bad teams). The odds just aren’t very good at all. JD agrees, thankfully.

[kelticwizard]

8 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And yet.... half retired Joe Flacco looked competent in the same bad situation while Sam Darnold pooped his pants.  

Flacco started four games for us last year.  Looked terrible in a couple, decent in the other two.  But he didn't win any.

[Jetsfan80]

9 minutes ago, kelticwizard said:

Flacco started four games for us last year.  Looked terrible in a couple, decent in the other two.  But he didn't win any.

Darnold didn't look decent in any games and went 2-10.  Who gives a sh*t that he won 2.  If given 12 games I imagine Flacco would have won something like 2 games as well, or perhaps more.  The point is Darnold needed to be way better than a half-retired Flacco, not worse than him.  Flacco's WR's and OL all looked better with Flacco under center.  Darnold didn't help any teammates look better.

And that's why Darnold's failure can't be fully or even mostly blamed on his circumstances.  Even when cancelling out the variables, he was objectively terrible at his job and is very, very unlikely to ever become anything in the NFL.

[Jetsfan80]

6 hours ago, genot said:

You make strong arguments most of the time. Flacco having one good game, (a game we lost), isn't very convincing. Certainly not a large enough sample size to draw any conclusions.

It doesn't need to be "convincing".  Flacco is a garbage QB who played in bad circumstances and Sam Darnold was worse in bad circumstances.  That's the point.  If Darnold is worse than garbage then he is garbage.  

[kelticwizard]

6 hours ago, jgb said:

Honestly I just see a results-based analysis 

Your analysis is based on three years.  For the first two years, Sam's record, (with a team nobody considered talented), was 11-15. Not half bad, considering. Then the  roof fell in last year when, among other things, they left him with only one legit receiver.

 

Why are you so certain that he cannot perform considerably better with a new, more talented team?

[kelticwizard]

41 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It doesn't need to be "convincing".  Flacco is a garbage QB who played in bad circumstances and Sam Darnold was worse in bad circumstances.  That's the point.  If Darnold is worse than garbage then he is garbage.  

Flacco is much more experienced than Sam, he's seen everything.  While from a mathematical perspective it would seem to follow that if quarterback A outperforms quarterback B on a totally untalented team, then he will outperform him on a talented team as well.  That's not necessarily true.  Some athletes seem to have the knack for looking good on a bad team, but for some reason when they go to a good team they don't improve.

[Jetsfan80]

36 minutes ago, kelticwizard said:

Your analysis is based on three years.  For the first two years, Sam's record, (with a team nobody considered talented), was 11-15. Not half bad, considering. Then the  roof fell in last year when, among other things, they left him with only one legit receiver.

 

Why are you so certain that he cannot perform considerably better with a new, more talented team?

Why are you using W-L record as a metric? Isn’t that a team metric, or so I’ve been told by Darnold defenders when bringing up last season’s results?

He was ranked dead last as a QB for 3 straight years in basically all statistical metrics.  He was around QB35 last season in several categories.  That seems far more relevant.

Especially since that 7-9 season in 2019 can be shredded apart when you take a closer look, as has been done many times on this board. 

[Jetsfan80]

33 minutes ago, kelticwizard said:

Flacco is much more experienced than Sam, he's seen everything.  While from a mathematical perspective it would seem to follow that if quarterback A outperforms quarterback B on a totally untalented team, then he will outperform him on a talented team as well.  That's not necessarily true.  Some athletes seem to have the knack for looking good on a bad team, but for some reason when they go to a good team they don't improve.

Flacco also visibly displayed no interest in being on the field.

Again, Darnold was supposed to far outperform his washed up backup.  He didn’t.  

The rest of the “good QB on a bad team” stuff is pretty silly.  Bad QBs are just bad.  Simple enough.  Its requiring a lot of mental gymnastics to try to deny this or defend Darnold, no? 

[kelticwizard]

No, it's not stupid.  And I guess I missed the "shredding" of the 2019 season.  Yes, I know the last few opponents were not the best, but they're NFL teams and his team beat them.

 

11-15 isn't a terrible record for a roster and coaching the Jets had in 2018-2019, especially considering it was his first two years in the league.  In 2020 he had no breakaway WR, no breakaway runner, and no tight end play worth mentioning.  So the Jets collapsed,  his stats looked terrible, and the Jets took the #2 pick and moved on.  Still doesn't mean he won't succeed in a better circumstance, which he presently seems to be in Carolina.

[doitny]

1 hour ago, kelticwizard said:

Your analysis is based on three years.  For the first two years, Sam's record, (with a team nobody considered talented), was 11-15. Not half bad, considering. Then the  roof fell in last year when, among other things, they left him with only one legit receiver.

 

Why are you so certain that he cannot perform considerably better with a new, more talented team?

Sam will play better with a better team. but that doesn't mean he doesn't suck. it means he is Mark Sanchez. 

a QB is suppose to make his team better, not the other way around.

do you think any of the top teams don't have injuries? they all do. but when your QB is good/great they make it work.

have you ever seen Rodgers, Ben or any other top QB have there team fall off so much they have a 2 win season cause of injuries to the WRs? no that never happens.

the 2010 Colts in Peyton's last season went 10-6 and ended with a loss to us. 

in 2011 Peyton gets hurt and Painter started 9 games and they went 2-14

then in 2012 they draft Luck and go 11-5.

do you think the talent around Peyton in 2010 was so great.... then dropped off so much in 2011.... then went back to great in 2012? or is it the QB. 

if Sam was a good QB he would have looked better with his one legit WR. i wonder how many teams really have one legit WR but because there QB is so good they make all there WRs look legit.

Pat Mahomes will make 50 mil a season . and KC will be fine because even though they have a lot less cap room to stack the team, they know that they can give him one legit WR and 2 ok guys and pat will make all 3 look great. they will win 10-11 games a year and make the playoffs. thats what great QBs do.

if Sam was that guy he would have done it with the Jets. 

 

[kelticwizard]

21 minutes ago, doitny said:

Sam will play better with a better team. but that doesn't mean he doesn't suck. it means he is Mark Sanchez. 

a QB is suppose to make his team better, not the other way around.

do you think any of the top teams don't have injuries? they all do. but when your QB is good/great they make it work.

have you ever seen Rodgers, Ben or any other top QB have there team fall off so much they have a 2 win season cause of injuries to the WRs? no that never happens.

the 2010 Colts in Peyton's last season went 10-6 and ended with a loss to us. 

in 2011 Peyton gets hurt and Painter started 9 games and they went 2-14

then in 2012 they draft Luck and go 11-5.

 

 

A.  You just saw Mahomes suck in the Super Bowl because both of his starting tackles were out of the game.  So much for injuries not making the difference.

 

B.  As far as quality QBs NEVER allowing their team to collapse, I saw YA Tittle, who had led the Giants  to the title game 3 times previously, lead them to the title game again and the next year the team went 2-10 with two ties.

For that matter,  I saw a Len Dawson led KC  team, who went to 2 Super Bowls and winning one, collapse to 2 or 3 wins the next season.

 

Collapses happen, even to good QBs.

[doitny]

1 hour ago, kelticwizard said:

A.  You just saw Mahomes suck in the Super Bowl because both of his starting tackles were out of the game.  So much for injuries not making the difference.

 

B.  As far as quality QBs NEVER allowing their team to collapse, I saw YA Tittle, who had led the Giants  to the title game 3 times previously, lead them to the title game again and the next year the team went 2-10 with two ties.

For that matter,  I saw a Len Dawson led KC  team, who went to 2 Super Bowls and winning one, collapse to 2 or 3 wins the next season.

 

Collapses happen, even to good QBs.

A. that is one game. i bet if he lost both for the season they still win 10-11 games. and Mahomes would still produce great numbers.

B. YA Tittle won 2 titles then went 1-8-2........at 38 yrs old. he retired after that. maybe his skill went down? not everybody can play in there 40s like TB12.

and as for Dawson i can only assume your talking about the 1963 season they went 5-7 after winning the championship the year before as the Dallas Texans. Dawson lead the league in TDs with 26 in 1963. 

maybe i didnt say this right but even if a team collapses a good QB doesnt. like Dawson who still played good. Watson who won 4 games last year and was tops in almost every QB category. 

not like sam who didnt produce even when the team collapsed. 

good QBs dont fall off the map when there teams do. i should have made that more clear.

 

[jgb]

6 hours ago, kelticwizard said:

Your analysis is based on three years.  For the first two years, Sam's record, (with a team nobody considered talented), was 11-15. Not half bad, considering. Then the  roof fell in last year when, among other things, they left him with only one legit receiver.

 

Why are you so certain that he cannot perform considerably better with a new, more talented team?

First of all, he will probably improve — how can he not, it’s hard to be worse than the worst QB in the NFL. But that’s not the measure. The measure is does he improve enough to be a good NFL QB. Who cares it he improves from the #35 rated QB to #28? Although I can already see the Darnold defenders proclaiming some type of pyrrhic victory at a result like that and pumping his “positive trajectory.”
 

Am I “certain” (interesting standard to apply to my opinion, lol) Sam will never be a good NFL QB? No, I am not. I am just very confident. The last QB to be let go during his rookie deal and become a FQB elsewhere is Brett Favre (who only threw 4 attempts with his original team). It just doesn’t happen in today NFL, or at least hasn’t in the last 30 years. There is a serious flaw in the argument that Sam’s bad situation indicates he will be a good player elsewhere. Every QB drafted in the top of the draft goes to a bad team. What makes him different or special compared to all the others who never became anything after busting for their original team? Those who think Sam will do something no other QB has done in the last 30 years have got to bring more to the table than “his situation was bad” or “Gase [mic drop].”

[jgb]

2 hours ago, kelticwizard said:

A.  You just saw Mahomes suck in the Super Bowl because both of his starting tackles were out of the game.  So much for injuries not making the difference.

 

B.  As far as quality QBs NEVER allowing their team to collapse, I saw YA Tittle, who had led the Giants  to the title game 3 times previously, lead them to the title game again and the next year the team went 2-10 with two ties.

For that matter,  I saw a Len Dawson led KC  team, who went to 2 Super Bowls and winning one, collapse to 2 or 3 wins the next season.

 

Collapses happen, even to good QBs.

The limitation of arguing via extreme and infrequent outlier is that all it “proves” is that a thing is possible. No one is arguing it’s impossible for Sam to suddenly become good. We are saying it’s extremely unlikely. By citing YA Tittle (wasn’t his top WR a velociraptor?) do you see how you’re actually making our point?

[slats]

14 hours ago, chirorob said:

True.

It also took some time, and all time great head coach, and the all time great WR.

Yeah, iirc, he was sitting behind a slightly above average QB, too. 

[slats]

@jgb and @Jetsfan80 : Jets fans are obsessed with Sam Darnold. 
 
Also jgb and Jetsfan80: nearly half the posts in the posts in this thread. 

[jgb]

15 minutes ago, slats said:

@jgb and @Jetsfan80 : Jets fans are obsessed with Sam Darnold. 
 
Also jgb and Jetsfan80: nearly half the posts in the posts in this thread. 

Welcome. Have a drink and some pretzels.

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, slats said:

@jgb and @Jetsfan80 : Jets fans are obsessed with Sam Darnold. 
 
Also jgb and Jetsfan80: nearly half the posts in the posts in this thread. 

 

Call it fascination with people who still pine for the worst QB in the league because of a secret skillset they think he has. 

If you want this thread to die its probably best to not come back in here and complain about beating a dead horse, eh?

[jgb]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Call it fascination with people who still pine for the worst QB in the league because of a secret skillset they think he has. 

If you want this thread to die its probably best to not come back in here and complain about beating a dead horse, eh?

It's also comparing apples to oranges. When 2 are facing 10, yeah we're gonna get the most touches.

[Jetsfan80]

10 hours ago, kelticwizard said:

No, it's not stupid.  And I guess I missed the "shredding" of the 2019 season.  Yes, I know the last few opponents were not the best, but they're NFL teams and his team beat them.

 

11-15 isn't a terrible record for a roster and coaching the Jets had in 2018-2019, especially considering it was his first two years in the league.  In 2020 he had no breakaway WR, no breakaway runner, and no tight end play worth mentioning.  So the Jets collapsed,  his stats looked terrible, and the Jets took the #2 pick and moved on.  Still doesn't mean he won't succeed in a better circumstance, which he presently seems to be in Carolina.

 

The 7-9 season came against one of the easiest schedules in recent history.  The NFC East was impossibly bad that year and the Jets faced the likes of Mason Rudolph, Devlin Hodges, Matt Barkley, Dwayne Haskins, and rookie Daniel Jones (who fumbled 18 times along with 12 INTs that year) in 5 of their games.  If you were posting at all in the 2019-20 span you couldn't have possibly missed this.  

But moving on from this fairly worthless W-L discussion which is clearly a flawed approach when analyzing Darnold's career in NY, What does "success" look like to you for Darnold in Carolina?  What are your expectations there?

[jgb]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

What does "success" look like to you for Darnold in Carolina?  What are your expectations there?

Doesn't matter how they define "success." Either Sam performs or his supporting cast sucks. Prepare to hear one or more of the following:

• "CAR has no true #1 WR"
• "CAR lacks a weapon at the TE position"
• "CAR's OL was rebuilt in the off-season and needs time to gel"

And if CMAC misses significant time, it just wouldn't be "fair" to evaluate Sam at all.

Besides, if Sam succeeds can't we just attribute it all to CMAC anyway? That's the narrative of people who refuse to admit they were even a little wrong about Tannehill.

[Larz]

20 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And yet.... half retired Joe Flacco looked competent in the same bad situation while Sam Darnold pooped his pants.  

That’s the thing for me. Sane system, sane players etc. Sam gets himself in trouble with hero balls and bad decisions.  

Last season he was still running out of bounds with the ball in his hand instead of throwing it away. That’s not good for high school and it wasn’t one meaningless time late in the game. 
he just gets brain freeze 

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Larz said:

That’s the thing for me. Sane system, sane players etc. Sam gets himself in trouble with hero balls and bad decisions.  

Last season he was still running out of bounds with the ball in his hand instead of throwing it away. That’s not good for high school and it wasn’t one meaningless time late in the game. 
he just gets brain freeze 

Personally likeable Geno Smith. Slow football brain disease.