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U.S. Supreme Court Strikes First Nail in the NCAA Coffin


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Will be interesting to see where this goes long term.  I fear for the student athletes on the fringe  of things. 

And as much as I love sports and college sports to be honest the whole scholarships for being a good athlete has always seemed dodgy to me.

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excited for people to vociferously defend the “sanctity” and “purity” of what is essentially a massive workers comp avoidance scheme

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/supreme-court-ncaa-student-athlete-decision https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/21/politics/ncaa-supreme-court/index.html TLDR:  NCAA loses in a unanimous Supreme Cour

In my ideal world, colleges can be what they're supposed to be, institutions of education.  Not professional sports leagues with an uncompensated labor force. Sports activities, including and esp

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3 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

I agree.

I personally like the setup baseball has. Kids in baseball have options. Go to college and play baseball. Go to the minors and focus only on baseball. Or go to the minors and take college courses part-time. Kids can take the road that best fits them.

It’s even great from a fan perspective. Minor league games are family friendly and can be supported by a small city.

The only baseball players that go directly into the minors are ones that are taken within the first 3 rounds or so (because the money makes it worth it vs a college education), or they have no aspirations of college, and probably would not be able to find admission.

That is hardly a worthy alternative.

If you are a good baseball player that has true mlb skills, and a decent student, and you are not a top 100 pick, your best choice is go to school, have the majority of your college paid for, hone your craft, and then get re-drafted as a junior. 

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Used to mock old people who clung to the past and seemed afraid of new ideas. 
 

Now I completely understand their perspective. Society is changing so fast. Don’t get me wrong, plenty of good and bad changes. Still scary.

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2 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Will be interesting to see where this goes long term.  I fear for the student athletes on the fringe  of things. 

And as much as I love sports and college sports to be honest the whole scholarships for being a good athlete has always seemed dodgy to me.

It has paid for 60% of my youngest son's tuition. But trust me, he has worked hard for it. The practice time put in, the travel, the need to keep up with classes when you are on the road, if you were to put an hourly wage on it, it would probably be near minimum wage. 

But he wouldn't trade the experience for anything. And he is in a fringe sport.

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32 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

I would like to think that your way would have a chance, but it can't. There are huge economies that actually subsist as feeders because of this system. Towns like State College, Pa, Ann Arbor, MI, and hundreds of other towns that would be holes, were it not for "non-professional athletes".

And just like the Steel industry, change can still happen, and those towns will either A. go back to just being college towns, or B. dry up, like the Steel towns before them, and those people will move away to some other town where work exists for them.

"We must protect the economy of State College PA" is not a compelling argument really, outside of State College PA.

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And let's not forget the universities that exist because of this system as well. Do yourself a favor some time and walk on a campus university in the summer some time. What you will see are construction and maintenance jobs in hyper drive. These universities are rapidly growing small cities. Being driven in part by college spending. Being driven in part by college subsidies including large athletics and merchandise.

Being intimately familiar with University budgets, I can tell you, no, Sports isn't building the rest of the college mate, lol, don't buy the propaganda.  College Sports, even the most profitable, feed mostly....themselves.  They don't in fact pay for girls field hockey to exist, or the new Dorm building for non-sports students, or the new lunch room and library annex in BMOC Hall.  

They just tell you that, to create fear, so you'll never question the status quo.

And lets also be clear, most of these schools, State ones included, have so much money sitting in their endowment funds, they don't need the profit for all those non-football/basketball nice-for-students items.  Mostly, the profit from college sports goes into Head Coach jobs, coaching staff jobs, coaching staff travel budgets, opulent sports facilities most students only see on gameday or never see at all, fancy offices for Administrators, Administration salaries and the like.  

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No one, no matter how stupid they are, is willing to kill that golden goose. Our economy as a whole needs it.

LOL no, it really doesn't.  At all.  In any way whatsoever.

But even if it did, a change at colleges doesn't mean you eliminate the economic opportunities.

There is a clear need for Minor League or Developmental League Professional Sports in America.  For both Football and Basketball (Mens and Womens).  The fact schools do make what they make shows that to be unquestionable true.  

Done right, with the appropriate markets and profit motive, the economic impact could be materially greater than it is today in private (non-governmental), for-profit hands.  For both Owners and players and Pro Leagues alike.  

People think just because something has "always been done that way" it can and should never change, and can't ever be better.  It's a very silly way of thinking honestly.  Sure, State College PA may not like it if Penn State is back to just being an agricultural school in nowhere PA, but small cities like Richmond, or Nashville, or their ilk will love it when they have new arenas and football stadiums for their local minor league sports franchises.  

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1 minute ago, Warfish said:

And just like the Steel industry, change can still happen, and those towns will either A. go back to just being college towns, or B. dry up, like the Steel towns before them, and those people will move away to some other town where work exists for them.

"We must protect the economy of State College PA" is not a compelling argument really, outside of State College PA.

Being intimately familiar with University budgets, I can tell you, no, Sports isn't building the rest of the college mate, lol, don't buy the propaganda.  College Sports, even the most profitable, feed mostly....themselves.  They don't in fact pay for girls field hockey to exist, or the new Dorm building for non-sports students, or the new lunch room and library annex in BMOC Hall.  

And lets also be clear, most of these schools, State ones included, have so much money sitting in their endowment funds, they don't need the profit for all those non-football/basketball nice-for-students items.  Mostly, the profit from college sports goes into Head Coach jobs, coaching staff jobs, coaching staff travel budgets, opulent sports facilities most students only see on gameday or never see at all, fancy offices for Administrators, Administration salaries and the like.  

LOL no, it really doesn't.  At all.  In any way whatsoever.

But even if it did, a change at colleges doesn't mean you eliminate the economic opportunities.

There is a clear need for Minor League Professional Sports in America.  For both Football and Basketball (Mens and Womens).

Done right, with the appropriate markets and profit motive, the economic impact could be materially greater than it is today in private (non-governmental), for-profit hands.  For both Owners and players and Pro Leagues alike.  

People think just because something has "always been done that way" it can and should never change, and can't ever be better.  It's a very silly way of thinking honestly.  Sure, State College PA may not like it if Penn State is back to just being an agricultural school in nowhere PA, but small cities like Richmond, or Nashville, or their ilk will love it when they have new arenas and football stadiums for their local minor league sports franchises.  

Forgive me if I construe your ideal world as bordering on naive. But you are welcome to that opinion and it is refreshing.

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4 minutes ago, Warfish said:

And just like the Steel industry, change can still happen, and those towns will either A. go back to just being college towns, or B. dry up, like the Steel towns before them, and those people will move away to some other town where work exists for them.

"We must protect the economy of State College PA" is not a compelling argument really, outside of State College PA.

Being intimately familiar with University budgets, I can tell you, no, Sports isn't building the rest of the college mate, lol, don't buy the propaganda.  College Sports, even the most profitable, feed mostly....themselves.  They don't in fact pay for girls field hockey to exist, or the new Dorm building for non-sports students, or the new lunch room and library annex in BMOC Hall.  

They just tell you that, to create fear, so you'll never question the status quo.

And lets also be clear, most of these schools, State ones included, have so much money sitting in their endowment funds, they don't need the profit for all those non-football/basketball nice-for-students items.  Mostly, the profit from college sports goes into Head Coach jobs, coaching staff jobs, coaching staff travel budgets, opulent sports facilities most students only see on gameday or never see at all, fancy offices for Administrators, Administration salaries and the like.  

LOL no, it really doesn't.  At all.  In any way whatsoever.

But even if it did, a change at colleges doesn't mean you eliminate the economic opportunities.

There is a clear need for Minor League Professional Sports in America.  For both Football and Basketball (Mens and Womens).

Done right, with the appropriate markets and profit motive, the economic impact could be materially greater than it is today in private (non-governmental), for-profit hands.  For both Owners and players and Pro Leagues alike.  

People think just because something has "always been done that way" it can and should never change, and can't ever be better.  It's a very silly way of thinking honestly.  Sure, State College PA may not like it if Penn State is back to just being an agricultural school in nowhere PA, but small cities like Richmond, or Nashville, or their ilk will love it when they have new arenas and football stadiums for their local minor league sports franchises.  

https://www.sportico.com/leagues/college-sports/2020/college-footballs-billions-1234610808/

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1 minute ago, Scott Dierking said:

Forgive me if I construe your ideal world as bordering on naive. But you are welcome to that opinion and it is refreshing.

I'm sure the big U.S. steel magnates said the same things to folks who saw their ultimate economic demise coming, lol.

I'm not sure which aspect is naïve per se, but I should point out:  At no point have I argued that the Beast that is NCAA Sports and Big School University Administrators will not do everything in their collective powers to stop this and future change.. 

Because they absolutely will do everything possible to protect themselves and their own economic interests.

And sure, such a sea change seems and feels like an impossibility today, even after this early ruling.

But look around you, look how many other previously presumed-impossible-things are currently and recently becoming the new norm.  

The one consistent thing about our world and culture is change.  Eventually, change will come to professional college sports industry, one way, or the other.  

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57 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

 

As mentioned in other comments this will open the door for developmental leagues that should already be a thing.

Minor League Baseball Player Salaries

According to The Athletic, the average player salary for a minor league player was $6,000 in Single-A, $9,350 in Double-A and $15,000 in Triple-A in 2018. The aforementioned pay bump will increase player pay at least a little bit.

 

If it were my kid I would much rather he gets a $250,000 +- free education, then ride on buses 30-40 hours a week from site to site, and live like a dog.  Minor league BB is horrible on the players.

The only real ones who will benefit from this are the 5 star player who are going to make millions in a few years anyway.  Outside of basketball, womens sports will be gone.  Many smaller schools who are not drawing 20 + thousand fans will probably drop football.

But yeah, this will make everything fair for all college players.  

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35 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I'm sure the big U.S. steel magnates said the same things to folks who saw their ultimate economic demise coming, lol.

I'm not sure which aspect is naïve per se, but I should point out:  At no point have I argued that the Beast that is NCAA Sports and Big School University Administrators will not do everything in their collective powers to stop this and future change.. 

Because they absolutely will do everything possible to protect themselves and their own economic interests.

And sure, such a sea change seems and feels like an impossibility today, even after this early ruling.

But look around you, look how many other previously presumed-impossible-things are currently and recently becoming the new norm.  

The one consistent thing about our world and culture is change.  Eventually, change will come to professional college sports industry, one way, or the other.  

I am not sure how US Big Steel and their dominance being diminished by foreign entities and their battles with unions equate to the NCAA.

Will Japanese baseball and universities diminish the NCAA and the athletes into submission?

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1 hour ago, Scott Dierking said:

I am not sure how US Big Steel and their dominance being diminished by foreign entities and their battles with unions equate to the NCAA.

It's an example of how change can come to even the strongest and most entrenched economic power.

In the case of the NCAA, change is coming.  This is only the first of what I predict will be many court defeats for them in the next few decades, losses that will greatly diminish their power over student athletes and the economics of college athletics.  

I could also be 100% wrong, admittedly.  Only time will tell.

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1 hour ago, Scott Dierking said:

The only baseball players that go directly into the minors are ones that are taken within the first 3 rounds or so (because the money makes it worth it vs a college education), or they have no aspirations of college, and probably would not be able to find admission.

That is hardly a worthy alternative.

If you are a good baseball player that has true mlb skills, and a decent student, and you are not a top 100 pick, your best choice is go to school, have the majority of your college paid for, hone your craft, and then get re-drafted as a junior. 

But I see that as a good thing. There are different avenues you can take in baseball. If you are good enough to get drafted high, you can benefit monetarily by going to the minors.

If you are not, you can still play in college. Not everyone should take the same route. And not every athlete will benefit monetarily.

In football, players are being funneled through one system and forced to play college for 2 years before being eligible for the NFL draft. Even those athletes who are highly marketable. 

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2 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

But I see that as a good thing. There are different avenues you can take in baseball. If you are good enough to get drafted high, you can benefit monetarily by going to the minors.

If you are not, you can still play in college. Not everyone should take the same route. And not every athlete will benefit monetarily.

In football, players are being funneled through one system and forced to play college for 2 years before being eligible for the NFL draft. Even those athletes who are highly marketable. 

They aren’t forced. They can play in Canada. That’s an NFL rule too not the NCAA.

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1 hour ago, flgreen said:
Minor League Baseball Player Salaries

According to The Athletic, the average player salary for a minor league player was $6,000 in Single-A, $9,350 in Double-A and $15,000 in Triple-A in 2018. The aforementioned pay bump will increase player pay at least a little bit.

 

If it were my kid I would much rather he gets a $250,000 +- free education, then ride on buses 30-40 hours a week from site to site, and live like a dog.  Minor league BB is horrible on the players.

The only real ones who will benefit from this are the 5 star player who are going to make millions in a few years anyway.  Outside of basketball, womens sports will be gone.  Many smaller schools who are not drawing 20 + thousand fans will probably drop football.

But yeah, this will make everything fair for all college players.  

Division 3 schools don’t offer athletic scholarships and usually have small attendance with free admission. Yet these schools have robust athletic offerings. I went to a D3 school that has 20+ sports offerings. College sports won’t go away.

I agree that some of these smaller D1 programs will change. Not sure they’ll need to drop football, but they may need to move down to division 2 or 3.

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2 hours ago, bgivs21 said:

With that you're getting into other legal issues. Think about how many recruitment scandals we've seen over the past few years, some with the FBI involved.

There's a lot more to it than "players get paid". And that statement in itself is also troubling because it makes it sound like every kid but the reality is the Mac Jones and Justin Fields will get paid, everyone else not so much. 

But they'd have the opportunity to get paid. Right now they do not. It's a fixed game for the kids. The elite players should get paid more because of the value they bring to their program. If the school makes money off the talent of the player then that player should share in the rewards. This will turn into teams bidding for top players, likely through boosters.

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3 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

But they'd have the opportunity to get paid. Right now they do not. It's a fixed game for the kids. The elite players should get paid more because of the value they bring to their program. If the school makes money off the talent of the player then that player should share in the rewards. This will turn into teams bidding for top players, likely through boosters.

How do you fairly compensate the player with Title IX? Wouldn’t every player be entitled to the same amount?

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1 hour ago, flgreen said:
Minor League Baseball Player Salaries

According to The Athletic, the average player salary for a minor league player was $6,000 in Single-A, $9,350 in Double-A and $15,000 in Triple-A in 2018. The aforementioned pay bump will increase player pay at least a little bit.

 

If it were my kid I would much rather he gets a $250,000 +- free education, then ride on buses 30-40 hours a week from site to site, and live like a dog.  Minor league BB is horrible on the players.

The only real ones who will benefit from this are the 5 star player who are going to make millions in a few years anyway.  Outside of basketball, womens sports will be gone.  Many smaller schools who are not drawing 20 + thousand fans will probably drop football.

But yeah, this will make everything fair for all college players.  

You can get an education AND get paid, those are not mutually exclusive with this type of change.

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3 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

How do you fairly compensate the player with Title IX? Wouldn’t every player be entitled to the same amount?

Allowing players to have sponsorship deals with companies, signing autographs, or giving them a portion of their jersey sales would not be unreasonable. 

I wouldn't suggest a straight salary but rather a percentage on the net so that it's to everyone's best interest that the sport grows. I don't know labor laws though, maybe that's not possible but that's gotta be better than not being paid at all.

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Tuition is no different than the NFL rookie salary cap.   All the NCAA has to do is what the NFL did.  Unionize the students and lock them out if they don't negiotate a crappy deal for the incoming class.   

 

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10 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Allowing players to have sponsorship deals with companies, signing autographs, or giving them a portion of their jersey sales would not be unreasonable. 

I wouldn't suggest a straight salary but rather a percentage on the net so that it's to everyone's best interest that the sport grows. I don't know labor laws though, maybe that's not possible but that's gotta be better than not being paid at all.

I know for example in Florida student athletes will be permitted to be paid off of their likeness beginning July 1st. I always felt that was the best compromise.

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7 hours ago, GreenFish said:

I agree.

I personally like the setup baseball has. Kids in baseball have options. Go to college and play baseball. Go to the minors and focus only on baseball. Or go to the minors and take college courses part-time. Kids can take the road that best fits them.

It’s even great from a fan perspective. Minor league games are family friendly and can be supported by a small city.

Exactly.  Gives an 18-year old kid the ability to go start his pro career right away or go to college.  The NBA 1-year system is horrifically bad by comparison.

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5 hours ago, Matt39 said:

How do you fairly compensate the player with Title IX? Wouldn’t every player be entitled to the same amount?

More inequity has been derived from the ostensible pursuit of “fairness” than from greed.

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18 hours ago, Scott Dierking said:

There will be good and bad that comes out of this. Good is that some of the college athletes will get some form of smaller amount of compensation. Bad that it will be the death knell for many of the non-revenue sports.

So basically say goodbye to women's collegiate sports.

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For those of you that do not believe that non-revenue sports will not be on the chopping block, just consider Lasalle University baseball. Because of COVID (and other reasons), Lasalle baseball (Division 1) along with 7 other sports just played their last season. The University is cutting the program. Claim they can't support it.

I mention Lasalle, because I know players on the team and they are local to me. The Lasalle story is just one of many schools that have done the same in the last year.

The NCAA, and ultimately the universities will use the excuse of needing to provide other subsidies to student athletes as the straw that breaks the camels back. Whether that is true of not (schools being broke), that will be the impetus.

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I like the idea of paying the players their fair share of the profits, but I don't think this will change the power structure.

The football factories are already paying their players under the table and barely require actual classes.  

If they make a "salary cap" these same schools will still find ways to entice the players to choose them.   

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What about doctorate students who work on university research teams? The list of inventions coming from this research is endless and the royalties huge. The graduate students working on the teams were eating Raman.

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Instead of paying the athletes, why not just allow them to earn money on endorsements and such? Those who have that value may cash in, those who don’t continue to benefit as they do today. The NCAA doesn’t have to take money out of their pocket and elite athletes get the compensation they deserve.


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2 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

Instead of paying the athletes, why not just allow them to earn money on endorsements and such? Those who have that value may cash in, those who don’t continue to benefit as they do today. The NCAA doesn’t have to take money out of their pocket and elite athletes get the compensation they deserve.


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This is a pretty fair compromise. But it will make the NCAA batcrap crazy

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