Do the offensive additions from this off season make a better starting lineup than any Jet offense in the last 5 years?

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, slats said:

I think one position that has been unfairly-for lack of a better word- relegated to non-premium status for too long is Tight End. Unlike RBs and Safeties, TEs at least need to bring size to the table, making them a scarcer commodity. As the Kelces and Kittles produce and get paid, and guys like Belichick keep paying them, I think the position could be the next one to start seeing better compensation- much like interior OL who used to get paid much less than the average RB. If that starts to happen, maybe you’ll see more power forwards go out for their football teams, and the surge in value will feed itself. And yeah, the 6’5” and/or 4.3 guys at WR who produce at high levels will continue to get paid, but the 6’ 4.45 guys are just gonna be replaced by cheaper labor. What the Jets paid Cole was part of their leverage against Crowder. 
 
As far as defense is concerned, the Jets are now operating a good one to bring in secondary players on the cheap. Most teams drafting CBs are looking for shutdown man guys, while this system likes the bigger, longer zone guys. I don’t think this offseason was a aberration, I think they really hope to have their CB jobs filled with late picks and UDFAs, and will continue to fill them that way.  
 
I think the trends will continue to be dominated by the offenses, though. More teams looking to feature power running games against these smaller, faster defenses, for instance, requiring defenses to adjust again. 

The TE point reminds me Parcells’ “world guys” philosophy. There’s only so many guys in the world who can do all facets of a TE’s responsibilities well.

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, slats said:

I continue to believe that the WR position is in for a downward price adjustment as colleges keep producing NFL ready guys at rookie prices. A downturn similar to, but not as severe, as the one RBs are going thru. 

At first glance I agreed but am not so sure.  The game has become such a passing game, QBs are more dependent on their WRs than ever.  Even more so with teams quickly moving on from on from QBs like Darnold and Allen for another draft pick. Nothing helps a QB develop like a good veteran WR.  

I think WR might be a position where team shouldnt be looking to save money on

[jgb]

15 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

At first glance I agreed but am not so sure.  The game has become such a passing game, QBs are more dependent on their WRs than ever.  Even more so with teams quickly moving on from on from QBs like Darnold and Allen for another draft pick. Nothing helps a QB develop like a good veteran WR.  

I think WR might be a position where team shouldnt be looking to save money on

I think he’s onto something. There will always be those top guys like prime Julio who get borderline top-12 QB money. But is there enough difference between any of the guys below elite level to justify a huge contract? Guys like Corey Davis are relatively fungible IMHO. Cost is closely linked to supply.

[peekskill68]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

I actually think after a decade or more of NFL being an “offensive/passing league” we may be about to experience a defensive revolution. As the league all goes one way, the relative cost of going the other decreases. We saw this when teams that bucked the trend 25-30 years ago and went 3-4, were able to get “elite” players suited to the 3-4 for “cheaper” than elite 4-3 guys as they were in less demand. As more teams adopted 3-4, this balanced out and the built-in advantage closed and eventually reversed. I don’t have a prediction as to specifics, but one could see from a resource-allocation perspective there may be an advantage in relative cost/benefit to over-allocate on defense. It’s just cheaper to build an elite defense than an elite offense (largely skewed by elite QB cost). Of course, Jets have basically done this (whether by design or accident) from 2000 to JD and we all know the results.

Interesting premise.  The problem I'm having with it is that the genie is out of the bottle when it comes to league rules pushing offense to better sell the product.  Similar to a MLB team investing heavy in undervalued Gold Glove outfielders with a juiced baseball...

[Jet Nut]

16 minutes ago, jgb said:

I think he’s onto something. There will always be those top guys like prime Julio who get borderline top-12 QB money. But is there enough difference between any of the guys below elite level to justify a huge contract? Guys like Corey Davis are relatively fungible IMHO. Cost is closely linked to supply.

Its a really interesting idea and debate and I keep going back and forth with it.  I just think even the second tier WRs are worth it to teams.  You cant just have a Julio Jones.   Look at the Jets, they drafted a top college WR this year, Mims last year and still they made sure they supplemented it with Davis and Cole.

 

[jgb]

10 minutes ago, peekskill68 said:

Interesting premise.  The problem I'm having with it is that the genie is out of the bottle when it comes to league rules pushing offense to better sell the product.  Similar to a MLB team investing heavy in undervalued Gold Glove outfielders with a juiced baseball...

I’m also not sold on it  

7 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Its a really interesting idea and debate and I keep going back and forth with it.  I just think even the second tier WRs are worth it to teams.  You cant just have a Julio Jones.   Look at the Jets, they drafted a top college WR this year, Mims last year and still they made sure they supplemented it with Davis and Cole.

 

I think slat’s point is that you can get that second-tier performance from rookies who are cheap so why pay big second contracts for those guys? It’s not a question of whether those guys are important, it’s one of replacement value.

[Billyg]

21 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yep.  And 1 year, $3.5M is a small price to pay for a guy who impacts the culture and provides depth in the interior OL, the area on the roster which was our biggest need entering the offseason.  

I was highly disappointed when Douglas didn't end up landing Corey Linsley (who may have had little interest in being here anyways), but everything he's done since then for the IOL has been a bigtime positive.  

On season ticket holder call a couple of weeks ago, coach Saleh spoke highly of Dan Feeney for his leadership, play and hard work during training camp. Coach also commented on his behavior at the Islanders games saying that he was impressed with the beer chugging and crushing of cans on his head. Coach declined to comment on his hair since coach doesn't have any hair so it was inappropriate for him to comment. Sounds like the coaching staff really likes him. 

[Alka]

On 6/25/2021 at 9:41 PM, 32EBoozer said:

Who’s Corey Levin?

He sounds like a comedian.  This is the Corey Levin show on HBO!

 

[flgreen]

2 minutes ago, Billyg said:

On season ticket holder call a couple of weeks ago, coach Saleh spoke highly of Dan Feeney for his leadership, play and hard work during training camp. Coach also commented on his behavior at the Islanders games saying that he was impressed with the beer chugging and crushing of cans on his head. Coach declined to comment on his hair since coach doesn't have any hair so it was inappropriate for him to comment. Sounds like the coaching staff really likes him. 

I mentioned this in another thread, and was loudly booed.  LOL

Feeney is not a great physical specimen, and is not super Athletic, but he has started 57 straight games at three different OL spots.  He has made a career out of beating out JAGS.  The interior of the Jets OL last year was one of the worst I have seen.  Lewis was awful.  The G spot settled down a bit after Lewis was benched and replaced by freaking Pat Elflein, who stinks.

IMO if Clark (long shot) or Van Roten (very bad year) don't step up, Feeney has an excellent shot at being the "hold the fort guy"

[Jet Nut]

On 6/26/2021 at 7:02 AM, PepPep said:

Maybe? Its a weird comparison to make. You're comparing an older team with a team of rookies that hasnt played a single game yet and TBD free agents. I mean, if all goes well this year, yeah, maybe you could make a case. This is certainly an undeniably large influx of talent on the offense in one offseason.

What older team are you thinking of?

Sounds like youre thinking about 2015 but that was 6 years ago

[32EBoozer]

46 minutes ago, jgb said:

I think he’s onto something. There will always be those top guys like prime Julio who get borderline top-12 QB money. But is there enough difference between any of the guys below elite level to justify a huge contract? Guys like Corey Davis are relatively fungible IMHO. Cost is closely linked to supply.

Alpha WR like Diggs, Julio, Hopkins and Adams are worth the big $ contracts. If you have one of them then you supplement with the Shepherd, Godwin,Sanders etc.

If you don’t have one you load up on multiple guys like Davis and Crowder and Cole and get a true #1 in the draft

[slats]

10 minutes ago, flgreen said:

I mentioned this in another thread, and was loudly booed.  LOL

Feeney is not a great physical specimen, and is not super Athletic, but he has started 57 straight games at three different OL spots.  He has made a career out of beating out JAGS.  The interior of the Jets OL last year was one of the worst I have seen.  Lewis was awful.  The G spot settled down a bit after Lewis was benched and replaced by freaking Pat Elflein, who stinks.

IMO if Clark (long shot) or Van Roten (very bad year) don't step up, Feeney has an excellent shot at being the "hold the fort guy"

Feeney was the guy I expected to win the job before they signed Moses, now I’m not sure. Could still happen if the plan is to start Moses  at RT, though. 

[Jet Nut]

37 minutes ago, jgb said:

I’m also not sold on it  

I think slat’s point is that you can get that second-tier performance from rookies who are cheap so why pay big second contracts for those guys? It’s not a question of whether those guys are important, it’s one of replacement value.

I know its not the same NFL anymore but its always been said that WRs need time to develop into productive NFL WRs.  2-3 years was the golden rule.  Again, I know the clocks been moved up but for all the college receivers who are productive theres still quite a few who need some development time.  Not so sure a team thats past the initial rebuild stage wants to wait for a second tier WR talent to develop when they can get one other ways and get immediate production without the guesswork with a rookie.  

[flgreen]

4 minutes ago, slats said:

Feeney was the guy I expected to win the job before they signed Moses, now I’m not sure. Could still happen if the plan is to start Moses  at RT, though. 

Could be, but I'll be really surprized if Moses has agreeded to play G in a "show me" one year deal.  

[TMAC]

At least on paper, beyond any reasonable doubt.  

[slats]

41 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Its a really interesting idea and debate and I keep going back and forth with it.  I just think even the second tier WRs are worth it to teams.  You cant just have a Julio Jones.   Look at the Jets, they drafted a top college WR this year, Mims last year and still they made sure they supplemented it with Davis and Cole.

 

Like I said, Davis got the second largest WR contract in free agency this offseason, and after the third highest there was a huge drop off. Cole, I think, is a really nice player - and the  best he could do was a one year, $5M deal. We seem to have a, “generational WR draft class,” every couple of years now. I think that’s just the new norm with all the wide open offenses in college nowadays. From there, it’s a matter of supply and demand. Why would you give your #2/3, 700 yards/year guy $8M a year when you can draft one and pay him $5M over four? 
 
The Jets have been aggressive at OL and WR with JD at the helm because those position groups were wastelands. What they need to start doing is drafting those positions in the middle rounds to develop over the course of a year or two. 

[slats]

4 minutes ago, flgreen said:

Could be, but I'll be really surprized if Moses has agreeded to play G in a "show me" one year deal.  

Yeah, I don’t know. It wouldn’t be much of a shock to me. He’d be demonstrating versatility at a time when he’s 31 and looking for maybe his last payday. He’ll also be backing up the RT spot, and (unfortunately) likely see playing time there. It’s not like guards don’t get paid. LT is still the priority position on the OL, but LG to RT are all pretty much in the same pay range. 

[Warfish]

On 6/25/2021 at 9:22 PM, HawkeyeJet said:

I think you could make that case for sure(minus a LT ) which is both amazing and sad.  What a makeover by Douglas this Off-Season.

QB: Zach Wilson

RB: Michael Carter

RB: Tevin Coleman

WR: Elijah Moore 

WR: Corey Davis

WR: Keelan Cole 

OG: Alijah Vera-Tucker

OG: Dan Feeney

OG/C: Corey Levin

OT: Morgan Moses

TE: Tyler Kroft

It certainly could be.

But I'd just like, and this may seem crazy, to actually see them all take at least a single snap in a game that counts together BEFORE I start blowing them up with hype.

I mean look at the list, a QB who'se never taken a snap, #1 WR brand new, #2 WR brand new, RB whose never taken a snap, Slot WR whose never taken a snap, OG whose never taken a snap, OT who is brand new, etc.

On paper, yes, it looks materially better than recent years, unquestionably.

But that is ALOT of new (in a new system to boot) to presume anything.  I VERY much look forward to seeing them actually play.  

[HawkeyeJet]

9 minutes ago, Warfish said:

It certainly could be.

But I'd just like, and this may seem crazy, to actually see them all take at least a single snap in a game that counts together BEFORE I start blowing them up with hype.

I mean look at the list, a QB who'se never taken a snap, #1 WR brand new, #2 WR brand new, RB whose never taken a snap, Slot WR whose never taken a snap, OG whose never taken a snap, OT who is brand new, etc.

On paper, yes, it looks materially better than recent years, unquestionably.

But that is ALOT of new (in a new system to boot) to presume anything.  I VERY much look forward to seeing them actually play.  

Don't get me wrong, I am with you on letting them play.  I'm probably overly cautious/slow to judge based on letting players have time to develop.

This was more just bored out of my mind in June post.

[isired]

Looks like, at minimum, a small upgrade in talent vs. what we got performance-wise out of last year's O (which looked better on paper than on the field).

It a looks like a sizeable upgrade in upside/ceiling, so hopefully we'll see improvement over the course of the year for a change.

[Jet Nut]

6 minutes ago, slats said:

Why would you give your #2/3, 700 yards/year guy $8M

Because you have a good idea of what you'll get and the #2 is pretty important, is really counted on to be an actual #2, not a projected two without a track record you can count on.

 

[Jet Nut]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

I'd just like, and this may seem crazy, to actually see them all take at least a single snap in a game that counts together BEFORE I start blowing them up with hype.

I get it.  But this is a fan page, this is what every sport fan does.  We're discussing what could be.  Thats the fun of sports.  

No one thinks waiting for the season to end and then just rehashing what a player did is more interesting than discussing what he could be before the season starts.  Just revisiting stats is boring, takes no imagination or thought

[peebag]

All depends on the QB position and how the 1st year OC handles himself.

The additon of Moses on the OL really helps the confidence level.

[JohnnyLV]

Seems to me there are 3 factors to consider.

Talent- We are dramatically more talented on offense QB 3WR G allowed starters possibly T and TE  if last year was 5 out of 10 this year is 8.5 to 9

Experience Rookie QB G RB WR possibly  TE, second year T WR RBs effectively Last year 6 This year 2

Scheme From complex system not fitted to players and without game planning to player friendly scheme good fit to our players and especially good  for QB like a 1 to 8

So will scheme and talent overcome Experience?  We will see. Maybe rough early in spots then co.ing together after but have to think it will bebeyyrrfrom Day 1 and potentially very good 

 

 

 

 

[Warfish]

4 hours ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Don't get me wrong, I am with you on letting them play.  I'm probably overly cautious/slow to judge based on letting players have time to develop.

This was more just bored out of my mind in June post.

Lol, I get you brother.

[Jetsfan80]

9 hours ago, slats said:

I think one position that has been unfairly-for lack of a better word- relegated to non-premium status for too long is Tight End. Unlike RBs and Safeties, TEs at least need to bring size to the table, making them a scarcer commodity. As the Kelces and Kittles produce and get paid, and guys like Belichick keep paying them, I think the position could be the next one to start seeing better compensation- much like interior OL who used to get paid much less than the average RB. 

TE's are definitely underpaid.  But part of that is the built-in injury risk, I think.  Kittle succumbed to the injury bug a lot last season.  As long as TE's have to spend at least a significant portion of their snaps close to the OL rather than lining up like WR's, they'll get hurt a lot and their careers won't last as long as WR's.  There aren't a lot of Tony Gonzalez and Antonio Gates iron men types out there.

[Billyg]

8 hours ago, flgreen said:

I mentioned this in another thread, and was loudly booed.  

Glad we heard the same thing.

[32EBoozer]

8 hours ago, slats said:

Feeney was the guy I expected to win the job before they signed Moses, now I’m not sure. Could still happen if the plan is to start Moses  at RT, though. 

interesting take at GGN

https://www.ganggreennation.com/2021/6/27/22540738/thoughts-after-jets-minicamp

George Fant Contract

I’m pretty sure the Jets will ask him to take a pay cut to do so; it seems like that is Joe Douglas’s modus operandi. The thing to remember about this is that Fant’s cap hit to the Jets this year is $9,829,5412. If the Jets were to cut him they only save $3,379,412 and eat $6,450,000 in dead money. Yet Fant will be 30 years old next year and has zero guaranteed money in his $9,250,000 salary in 2022. The Jets would only have a $1,000,000 dead cap hit from his prorated portion of his original signing bonus. 

So the way to do this (drop his 2021 cap hit) would be to prioritize Fant’s value to the team and pay him accordingly. Fant is a below average starter by any standard you may use. He is not horribly bad, but he is well below average especially in the run game where he gets no movement. He is though an above average swing tackle in that he can play both tackle positions and protect the edge against swift edge rushers. Fant is also a well liked teammate so keeping him on the roster is a positive move for the locker room. Good character players who provide a valuable service even if they are not starters and play an unappreciated role on all teams. 

So you offer Fant a contract extension (I never thought in a million years I would lobby for this) that will make him a Jet for the next 3 years. He currently has 18,550,000 of salary left on his contract over the next two years of which only $4,450,000 is guaranteed. If he were to be cut he would not be without suitors for his services, but at this point in the offseason there are few if any teams that would offer him any serious money. 

So you tear up his contract and sign him to a new contract for 3 years which takes him to his age 32 season. You give him a signing bonus of $3 million and a contract of $11 million with salaries of $2 million in 2021, $3 million in 2022 and $3 million in 2023. That would give him more money this year than if he was released. The low salaries the next two years would make it hard for the Jets to find a better replacement as a swing tackle who is reliable (not the Maccagnan approach) for less money. The cap hit this year is $4 million which only saves $450,000, but it gets the Jets out from under an unwieldy $18,550,000 salary the next two years and supplies the Jets with a viable swing tackle who would also has solid character on he roster. The last two years of the contract would have no guaranteed money so Fant would be investing in himself to make the team.

Fant would be gambling on the Jets keeping him, but he would also not have to worry about the wear and tear on his body as a starting player. The Jets could also add a provision that Fant gets a bonus depending on the amount of snaps he takes on offense. This way if one of the starting tackles goes down early in the season he will still be able to reap the rewards of his playing time.

[rex-n-effect]

Way, way too early to crown anything but this is the most optimistic I've been about the offense in probably more than five years. I was optimistic with Darnold that there was a start to rebuilding the offense but obviously he didn't pan out and the roster didn't get much better. The current roster has a lot of potential which is a different feeling--at least I'm not planning out other Sunday activities for the fall like I have the past couple years.

[rangerous]

we've seen these paper teams before.  the jets have been known to win the spring.  i does seem different this time and as others have said, last years draft are still pretty much rookies as far as team experience goes so this team has what amounts to a double draft of players.  some will work out and some won't.  i think the top choices will do well and are a great improvement over the guys they replaced.  can't wait for september.