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Prospects 2022 and random college ball talk.


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On 12/3/2021 at 10:53 PM, maury77 said:

If Saleh likes to play the "Seattle style" defense, I seem to remember that defense's heyday featured 2 very good safeties in Earl Thomas and Kam Chancellor. With Maye likely leaving, safety will likely be a hole. Do you guys think Hamilton is going to be a target in the top 10. I understand the argument that safety is a non premium position (and the Hamilton to Adams comparisons will likely get old quickly), but I have to imagine Hamilton might be in play (if he is as good as people say, I haven't watched Hamilton play). 

He's a much better fit for what we do than Adams because of his ability to play in the box but also be excellent in coverage.  He has great range at safety, and can cover man in the slot against TEs where his size is a real weapon (6'4 220).  Its possible he's in play, but the non premium position makes a big difference as JD has shown an aversion to paying safeties top dollar so one would think that he'd be adverse to selecting one top 5-10 in the draft.  But he's an excellent prospect and pretty much a top 5 talent in this draft. 

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On 12/5/2021 at 7:59 PM, derp said:

I think the off ball defensive needs can/should likely be addressed in FA or outside the first round. Especially if both picks are top ten.

The defense is running out a bunch of sub replacement level guys but I think that just means it’ll be easier to fill the non premium position holes in FA and make a big impact on the team. Edge makes sense to me early. Linebacker and safety less so.

This defense also looks a lot better with Carl Lawson and two veteran safeties. There’s no serious pocket push and the plan was clearly for the veteran safeties on the back end to help out there young corners and then both safeties got hurt.

Double defense in the first round with an iffy young QB just seems like you’re asking to continue that cycle of top five quarterbacks.

JD is committed to giving Zach everything possible to be successful.  That means surrounding him with tons of talent.  You can see it this year with how they drafted, but also with hiring Beck. If Zach fails, it wont be blamed on the organizations neglect of giving him resources.  You could always make that claim with Darnold early on.. the "but who is he throwing to?" or "the offensive line is terrible". I think addressing the defense will be paramount because of how poor the level of play has been from the fill in guys but it really depends what happens in FA.... 

There are only a few pieces on D that can be added in FA. 

Adding big price tickets like Barnett and Bates would allow JD to wait on Defense till round two and poach a second teir LB like a Harris to help that front 7 while taking a secondary player later on.  

Conversely, Adding a WR and TE in FA would allow them to take WR off the table in the draft and focus on maybe a OL and Defense in the first round like most of us think. 

Either way, JD has the resources to do both this year, its just a matter of if players in FA want to come here, and how much maneuverability there is in the draft. There are enough holes on this team where trading around in the draft makes too much sense. 

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14 hours ago, kdels62 said:

Alec Pierce, WR, Cincinnati

 

I really like pierce.  He's consistent, dynamic as an athlete, great hands. Route running will need work just because his break point is going to be different as that long of an athlete, but he's expected to put up great numbers at the combine in the 40 and 3 cone. 

I just fear he's going to be too big a riser during draft time.  I would have suggested looking at him in the 2nd, but I think he may be one of those ultra high risers after the combine where some teams are looking at him in the back half of the first.. Especially if there is a mid round run on WRs with Wilson, Burks, and London all going in that mid round range. 

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starting to wonder if JD will use a 1st on OL at all this year.  Obviously its still a need, but I struggle with the financial aspect of 3 1st rd picks on a single offensive line, all coming up on a 5th year option within one year of each other. I just dont see JD painting himself into this corner. 

Caveat to this is that the BPA at our spot is likely to be one of the top OL so we may just go it because there is not trade available. 

However, looking at mocks I'm seeing good OT talent slip to the second round.  Could JD manuever in the draft for a WR and Edge in the first only to go select a Petit-Frere or Rasheed Walker in RD 2, Possibly Penning who may still be there too... OR at guard look at a Lecitus Smith or Zion Johnson later on?  

Not really up to date on all of the OL prospects so I may be missing some, but its just an interesting discussion to have when you take cap implications and team building into account.  One would argue that to fix the OL now it would make more sense to add a higher priced FA or a 2-3rd rd Pick instead of a top 10 pick where those contract situations come up. 

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53 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

no body wants to say it... But a Lloyd or Dean upgrade this defense more than any other player probably outside of Hamilton.  A top notch edge is needed for sure, but as a rotational piece wont have the impact an every down player like lloyd or hamilton would have.  The problem is they just play non premium positions. 

If Quincy can develop and Mosley stays solid, you could have a really excellent LB group with LLoyd or Dean then taking over for Mosley in a year or two.  OR they're an upgrade over Quincy and we can rock and roll. 

I really hope we get to trade down with one of our two picks. There is just so many quality players that are going to be available in the back half of round 1 and day 2. Linebacker is a huge weakness and like you've alluded to, team speed needs upgraded. As much as the main board would lose their crap, we really do need linebacker and safety upgrades badly. If we leave this draft with a quality safety, edge, linebacker, and a tight end, I would feel like we at least addressed our most critical needs.

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22 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

starting to wonder if JD will use a 1st on OL at all this year.  Obviously its still a need, but I struggle with the financial aspect of 3 1st rd picks on a single offensive line, all coming up on a 5th year option within one year of each other. I just dont see JD painting himself into this corner. 

Caveat to this is that the BPA at our spot is likely to be one of the top OL so we may just go it because there is not trade available. 

However, looking at mocks I'm seeing good OT talent slip to the second round.  Could JD manuever in the draft for a WR and Edge in the first only to go select a Petit-Frere or Rasheed Walker in RD 2, Possibly Penning who may still be there too... OR at guard look at a Lecitus Smith or Zion Johnson later on?  

Not really up to date on all of the OL prospects so I may be missing some, but its just an interesting discussion to have when you take cap implications and team building into account.  One would argue that to fix the OL now it would make more sense to add a higher priced FA or a 2-3rd rd Pick instead of a top 10 pick where those contract situations come up. 

OT feels deep to me in this draft and I would 100% go there at some point for insurance at a minimum in case Becton can't stay healthy and they need to move Fant over to LT long-term.

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2 hours ago, sec101row23 said:

The Williams-Gardner match up is going to be fun to watch.   

So everyone is saying Alabama is gonna destroy Cincinnati but it’s a pretty decent matchup. Cincinnati might have more players selected in the first few rounds than Alabama this year and it’s at crucial positions. Round 1 CB, round 1 Edge, round 2 WR, Round 1 QB, Round 2/3 TE, the team is nothing to scoff at.

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34 minutes ago, Jets Voice of Reason said:

I really hope we get to trade down with one of our two picks. There is just so many quality players that are going to be available in the back half of round 1 and day 2. Linebacker is a huge weakness and like you've alluded to, team speed needs upgraded. As much as the main board would lose their crap, we really do need linebacker and safety upgrades badly. If we leave this draft with a quality safety, edge, linebacker, and a tight end, I would feel like we at least addressed our most critical needs.

It just comes down to impact in my mind.. Who makes more of an impact on this team next year.  A starting 4 down Lloyd or Dean alongside Mosley.

or a rotating karlaftis. 

To me its no comparison.  We're probably out of the running for one of Thibs or Hutchinson so you maybe kick edge down the road a little bit to rd 2 or even FA.. Then its all about looking at impact right away.  While not premium positions every year we see how an impact LB changes a defense.  Steelers with Bush, Bucs with White... Makes a big big difference. 

Im not saying thats definitely the way id go with this thing, but it certainly makes a lot of sense.  Trade down, get more picks.  Hell trade both picks down if you can and select a WR and LB in round 1 and then a Edge, OL, and TE in round 2 (hopefully one of those trade downs gives you another second). Youre sitting pretty there then after 2 days. 

Also have to expect at least one hole of TE/S/EDGE is filled in FA. 

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1 hour ago, kdels62 said:

So everyone is saying Alabama is gonna destroy Cincinnati but it’s a pretty decent matchup. Cincinnati might have more players selected in the first few rounds than Alabama this year and it’s at crucial positions. Round 1 CB, round 1 Edge, round 2 WR, Round 1 QB, Round 2/3 TE, the team is nothing to scoff at.

I hope its close, I just have so much respect for how good saban is at designing defenses and that whole staff is experienced nfl coaches. It's hard to bet against them.

 

Ooooo and they have some of the best talent in the country lol 

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You know what too... Interesting thought i just gave myself. 

 

Who are the two greatest coaches of hte modern era of football?  Saban, Bellicheck.. Both Defensive guys.  Everyone wants to prop of offensive coaches as being the way to go because they can work with the QB. 

Id argue that Defensive coaches may be more valuable to a qb development than offensive ones even.  

Think about it.. no one knows defensive keys and vulnerabilities better than the guys that design it.  For a QB to sit down with their HC and go through film and understand indicators, understand theories behind defenses and why things are done the way they are done with that level of detail is extremely beneficial.  

Just a random rant. 

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1 hour ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

It just comes down to impact in my mind.. Who makes more of an impact on this team next year.  A starting 4 down Lloyd or Dean alongside Mosley.

or a rotating karlaftis. 

To me its no comparison.  We're probably out of the running for one of Thibs or Hutchinson so you maybe kick edge down the road a little bit to rd 2 or even FA.. Then its all about looking at impact right away.  While not premium positions every year we see how an impact LB changes a defense.  Steelers with Bush, Bucs with White... Makes a big big difference. 

Im not saying thats definitely the way id go with this thing, but it certainly makes a lot of sense.  Trade down, get more picks.  Hell trade both picks down if you can and select a WR and LB in round 1 and then a Edge, OL, and TE in round 2 (hopefully one of those trade downs gives you another second). Youre sitting pretty there then after 2 days. 

Also have to expect at least one hole of TE/S/EDGE is filled in FA. 

Yeah, plus I trust that Saleh knows what he needs to fix the defense. If I remember correctly, he was a linebacker coach along the way and Fred Warner was a big fan of his impact on his career development. Fans just assume everyone is an idiot if the results are bad and it's easiest to blame the coach because he's one person, but at least in this case, I think he understands what's missing from the defense to run properly. Saleh has made a bunch of rookie mistakes to me, but that's not an area where I'm concerned long-term. It's not a Bowles situation where he's given complete control up to Kacy Rodgers.

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1 minute ago, Jets Voice of Reason said:

Yeah, plus I trust that Saleh knows what he needs to fix the defense. If I remember correctly, he was a linebacker coach along the way and Fred Warner was a big fan of his impact on his career development. Fans just assume everyone is an idiot if the results are bad and it's easiest to blame the coach because he's one person, but at least in this case, I think he understands what's missing from the defense to run properly. Saleh has made a bunch of rookie mistakes to me, but that's not an area where I'm concerned long-term. It's not a Bowles situation where he's given complete control up to Kacy Rodgers.

Ulbrich said everything you need to hear in his presser. 

"It’s a subtle thing where it’s like, you want to create some schematic issues for your opponent, but at the same time, you want to make it simplistic enough for these younger players to really grasp and play fast and confident and operate at a high level. It’s finding that balance, which has been difficult this year for sure, of doing enough schematically where they have answers and that we can put these guys in the best position to be successful. But at the same time, not do too much where they don’t fully grasp what we’re asking them to do. So, it’s trying to continue to find that balance"

The teams youth, and lack of talent, holds back things youd do to create an schematic advantage because if you try, the kids are then out of position, then mistakes compound each other. 

I thought that was the most telling honest statement about the state of the defense we've heard all year and it speaks to exactly what I've been saying.  They dont have the horses to give themselves a consistent shot right now

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2 hours ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

starting to wonder if JD will use a 1st on OL at all this year.  Obviously its still a need, but I struggle with the financial aspect of 3 1st rd picks on a single offensive line, all coming up on a 5th year option within one year of each other. I just dont see JD painting himself into this corner. 

Caveat to this is that the BPA at our spot is likely to be one of the top OL so we may just go it because there is not trade available. 

However, looking at mocks I'm seeing good OT talent slip to the second round.  Could JD manuever in the draft for a WR and Edge in the first only to go select a Petit-Frere or Rasheed Walker in RD 2, Possibly Penning who may still be there too... OR at guard look at a Lecitus Smith or Zion Johnson later on?  

Not really up to date on all of the OL prospects so I may be missing some, but its just an interesting discussion to have when you take cap implications and team building into account.  One would argue that to fix the OL now it would make more sense to add a higher priced FA or a 2-3rd rd Pick instead of a top 10 pick where those contract situations come up. 

The contract flip side is that a second/third round guy actually expires with AVT - a first round guy staggers it.

I think there are always individual players - draft or FA - that make sense to me. James Daniels at RG for a year and a center option following, a developmental tackle day 2 or 3  and/or a developmental iOL day 3 solves the early need, let’s them figure out Becton/Fant, adds depth, and leaves built in plug ins for next offseason which they haven’t had to do yet on the OL which I think they want to do.

1 hour ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

It just comes down to impact in my mind.. Who makes more of an impact on this team next year.  A starting 4 down Lloyd or Dean alongside Mosley.

or a rotating karlaftis. 

To me its no comparison.  We're probably out of the running for one of Thibs or Hutchinson so you maybe kick edge down the road a little bit to rd 2 or even FA.. Then its all about looking at impact right away.  While not premium positions every year we see how an impact LB changes a defense.  Steelers with Bush, Bucs with White... Makes a big big difference. 

Im not saying thats definitely the way id go with this thing, but it certainly makes a lot of sense.  Trade down, get more picks.  Hell trade both picks down if you can and select a WR and LB in round 1 and then a Edge, OL, and TE in round 2 (hopefully one of those trade downs gives you another second). Youre sitting pretty there then after 2 days. 

Also have to expect at least one hole of TE/S/EDGE is filled in FA. 

The particularly tricky thing with the linebacker situation is that they’ve got Mosley-Williams-Sherwood-Nasirildeen-Cashman-Phillips signed next year as a 4-3 defense that runs a ton of nickel. I’d argue that they could use two guys who can start in that nickel package but they don’t have a dearth of bodies to the point they need depth like WR, TE, or safety and I think they could stagger the upgrades there so that they can add that second serious option when Mosley expires. I kind of think it’s a draft/FA either/or. And they could probably make a huge upgrade in the second or third round.

Tight end they can and I imagine for sure will add bodies in FA. I’d expect a reclamation like Njoku but if Schultz or Gesicki shakes loose that would be cool. Think the depth of this class, the status of the depth chart, and how much 12 personnel they run means they can draft a guy basically whenever and have him be a meaningful contributor. I’d love two but that feels unrealistic.

Safety I know they haven’t spent on but is that because of the demands or because of how they value the position? They could offer a serious three year deal to a few of the good safeties that allows them to hit FA pre-30. I could see that being the big FA signing. A WR is possible too but feels more likely to be depth addition and draft there.

This roster is also bad but it finally has depth. They really need talent. I’m pretty sure they only need to turn over 15-20 roster spots this offseason so it’s pretty evident where they need to add FA’s for depth purposes which means FA and draft and where they just need talent which could be a serious FA or the draft.

Wilson is also the only QB signed next year so that could be a veteran or a veteran and a mid round pick.

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26 minutes ago, derp said:

The contract flip side is that a second/third round guy actually expires with AVT - a first round guy staggers it.

I think there are always individual players - draft or FA - that make sense to me. James Daniels at RG for a year and a center option following, a developmental tackle day 2 or 3  and/or a developmental iOL day 3 solves the early need, let’s them figure out Becton/Fant, adds depth, and leaves built in plug ins for next offseason which they haven’t had to do yet on the OL which I think they want to do.

The particularly tricky thing with the linebacker situation is that they’ve got Mosley-Williams-Sherwood-Nasirildeen-Cashman-Phillips signed next year as a 4-3 defense that runs a ton of nickel. I’d argue that they could use two guys who can start in that nickel package but they don’t have a dearth of bodies to the point they need depth like WR, TE, or safety and I think they could stagger the upgrades there so that they can add that second serious option when Mosley expires. I kind of think it’s a draft/FA either/or. And they could probably make a huge upgrade in the second or third round.

Tight end they can and I imagine for sure will add bodies in FA. I’d expect a reclamation like Njoku but if Schultz or Gesicki shakes loose that would be cool. Think the depth of this class, the status of the depth chart, and how much 12 personnel they run means they can draft a guy basically whenever and have him be a meaningful contributor. I’d love two but that feels unrealistic.

Safety I know they haven’t spent on but is that because of the demands or because of how they value the position? They could offer a serious three year deal to a few of the good safeties that allows them to hit FA pre-30. I could see that being the big FA signing. A WR is possible too but feels more likely to be depth addition and draft there.

This roster is also bad but it finally has depth. They really need talent. I’m pretty sure they only need to turn over 15-20 roster spots this offseason so it’s pretty evident where they need to add FA’s for depth purposes which means FA and draft and where they just need talent which could be a serious FA or the draft.

Wilson is also the only QB signed next year so that could be a veteran or a veteran and a mid round pick.

all valid points.  Its just such an interesting dynamic with this team.  I dont know if its been this open for ways to go for improving the team in years. Just both in terms of talent strength of the draft. multiple firsts, and a ton of money in fa.  I suppose you could say last year, but we were locked in at QB and OL and knew that was provably the way the first was going.  This year you could make a legitimate case to go S, LB, OL, WR, EDGE with either of the 1sts. combine that with a decent FA class and a large cap increase and this gets very very interesting. 

I agree I think they feel good enough about their LBs to not make a premier investment in a lloyd or Dean, but I do believe he offers that kind of versatility that he could pair excellently with mosley and then also develop into the leader of the defense going forward. Chances are like you said they'll make a smaller upgrade.. let next year play out and hope they get more out of sherwood, nisreldeen and williams all who they really like and go from there and make the investment when mosley's time is up. 

Safety i would bet they are going to make an investment in FA in someone they really like. Bates fits this defense and that seems to be the guy I would imagine they would target if they are going to do that 3 year deal. if its not him then it has to be the draft probably, i just dont know if i see them going with Hamilton in the spot he's going to get drafted.  Philly is going to take him undoubtedly with one of their top picks. He does make for a very interesting fit here in this defense though.  A guy that can play centerfield when necessary or fill that cam chancelor role (they are basically the same size) from Seattle is a very appealing prospect.  I could see JD Saleh and Ulbrich falling in love with the kid and going with it. 

This year has to improve the overall starting talent of this team big time, but as you said this team has depth now.. If you replace key positions with starting caliber players, the guys starting now are really good backups which is what I think JD has been trying to accomplish.. Build the floor before the roof so to speak. 

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4 hours ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

starting to wonder if JD will use a 1st on OL at all this year.  Obviously its still a need, but I struggle with the financial aspect of 3 1st rd picks on a single offensive line, all coming up on a 5th year option within one year of each other. I just dont see JD painting himself into this corner. 

Caveat to this is that the BPA at our spot is likely to be one of the top OL so we may just go it because there is not trade available. 

However, looking at mocks I'm seeing good OT talent slip to the second round.  Could JD manuever in the draft for a WR and Edge in the first only to go select a Petit-Frere or Rasheed Walker in RD 2, Possibly Penning who may still be there too... OR at guard look at a Lecitus Smith or Zion Johnson later on?  

Not really up to date on all of the OL prospects so I may be missing some, but its just an interesting discussion to have when you take cap implications and team building into account.  One would argue that to fix the OL now it would make more sense to add a higher priced FA or a 2-3rd rd Pick instead of a top 10 pick where those contract situations come up. 

Depends on FA.

I'd love to draft Linderwhatever, but if JD signs a right guard, and keeps Fant, they won't really need another O Lineman 1st rounder.

IF we are in the position to draft a pass rusher, I'd do that with the 1st pick.  The 2nd first rounder I would trade down, get extra picks the following drat, and take whatever you want, WR, Corner, LB, Safety, the Jets need them all.  

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5 hours ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

all valid points.  Its just such an interesting dynamic with this team.  I dont know if its been this open for ways to go for improving the team in years. Just both in terms of talent strength of the draft. multiple firsts, and a ton of money in fa.  I suppose you could say last year, but we were locked in at QB and OL and knew that was provably the way the first was going.  This year you could make a legitimate case to go S, LB, OL, WR, EDGE with either of the 1sts. combine that with a decent FA class and a large cap increase and this gets very very interesting. 

I agree I think they feel good enough about their LBs to not make a premier investment in a lloyd or Dean, but I do believe he offers that kind of versatility that he could pair excellently with mosley and then also develop into the leader of the defense going forward. Chances are like you said they'll make a smaller upgrade.. let next year play out and hope they get more out of sherwood, nisreldeen and williams all who they really like and go from there and make the investment when mosley's time is up. 

Safety i would bet they are going to make an investment in FA in someone they really like. Bates fits this defense and that seems to be the guy I would imagine they would target if they are going to do that 3 year deal. if its not him then it has to be the draft probably, i just dont know if i see them going with Hamilton in the spot he's going to get drafted.  Philly is going to take him undoubtedly with one of their top picks. He does make for a very interesting fit here in this defense though.  A guy that can play centerfield when necessary or fill that cam chancelor role (they are basically the same size) from Seattle is a very appealing prospect.  I could see JD Saleh and Ulbrich falling in love with the kid and going with it. 

This year has to improve the overall starting talent of this team big time, but as you said this team has depth now.. If you replace key positions with starting caliber players, the guys starting now are really good backups which is what I think JD has been trying to accomplish.. Build the floor before the roof so to speak. 

Yeah totally agree. One thing I’d clarify in terms of what I intended to get across - I don’t think they necessarily go light at linebacker in terms of how seriously they invest in a guy, I just don’t think it can be multiple. Could be Dean, Lloyd, I’d think Smith or Harris is maybe more likely, maybe the free agent from Atlanta as a half measure though this free agent class looks a lot weaker than the draft class so I’d guess draft before free agency. I just think they only add one guy. But I’d think they’d want to get a potential starter who impacts the defense. I just don’t see them adding two, three linebackers even if the talent level at the position might support that. Think one impact guy and once the depth deteriorates a little they expand.

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12 hours ago, derp said:

Yeah totally agree. One thing I’d clarify in terms of what I intended to get across - I don’t think they necessarily go light at linebacker in terms of how seriously they invest in a guy, I just don’t think it can be multiple. Could be Dean, Lloyd, I’d think Smith or Harris is maybe more likely, maybe the free agent from Atlanta as a half measure though this free agent class looks a lot weaker than the draft class so I’d guess draft before free agency. I just think they only add one guy. But I’d think they’d want to get a potential starter who impacts the defense. I just don’t see them adding two, three linebackers even if the talent level at the position might support that. Think one impact guy and once the depth deteriorates a little they expand.

I completely agree with that.  Thats why If they trade down a Lloyd or Dean make a lot of sense, even if its not a premium position, youre getting an impact starter at a position of need day one, You can continue to develop williams, nisrealdeen, and sherwood, and then when mosley is gone in another year or two those guys youve been grooming are ready to fill in and Lloyd/Dean are the centerpiece of the D. 

 

The more i think about it the more it just makes sense as a move to make in a trade down.  This team is probably better off trading down and drafting a Lloyd and Wilson/Burks than it is drafting a Neal/Karlaftis/whatever edge would be around in that spot.  Just the way my mind is kind of working now thinking about it. 

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57 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

interesting comparison.  I think its not too far off from a size altheticism standpoint.  Burks is way more fluid than enunwa was, but its certainly a similar game. 

I think Burks is a more explosive athlete with better coaching and competition. It’s why Burks will be a first rounder and Enunwa was a 6th rounder.  Enunwa would’ve been a great fit in this offense so obviously I think Burks will fit like a glove opposite Moore.

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8 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

I think Burks is a more explosive athlete with better coaching and competition. It’s why Burks will be a first rounder and Enunwa was a 6th rounder.  Enunwa would’ve been a great fit in this offense so obviously I think Burks will fit like a glove opposite Moore.

I think he definitely fits the offense and what they want to do with guys being able to work multiple layers of the field.  

When looking at WR's for this offense a few things need to be taken into account. 

1. Footwork.. route running and mechanics of this are insanely important to marry up to the drop of the QB so this is a huge portion of what they'll be looking for. 

2. The ability to work all 3 levels of the field.  the flexibility of not pigeon holing a guy into one role is a big part of what Lafluer and many that use a similar system do formationally to stress defenses.  Look at the Rams for instance.  Kupp/Woods all can work 3 layers of the field (short intermediate and deep). this allows the Rams to move pieces around and create unbalanced formations and motion like crazy and have guys play in different spots.  

3. The ability to play inside and outside.  I know some people criticized the moore pick early because they viewed him as only a slot player, but that was never the case.  He is exactly what this offense looks for and it is why he was very high on their list coming out.  Great footwork, excellent route running and releases, can work all 3 areas of the field, and play inside and outside. 

 

This is also why people misconstrue the situation with Mims.. Yes can he have a role on this team?  yea absolutely, but until he learned to be able to play all positions its tough because it limits what you can do formationally and motion wise with your personnel groups. Mims route running and releases from different positions had to get better and he had to learn to play from tight in the box.  A staple of this offense is using tight formations to stress the field laterally in the pass game getting defenders out of position.  

 

So when scouting WR's this year those are important traits to keep an eye on.  Also why I have Wilson slighttlllyyy ahead of Burks 

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2 hours ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

I completely agree with that.  Thats why If they trade down a Lloyd or Dean make a lot of sense, even if its not a premium position, youre getting an impact starter at a position of need day one, You can continue to develop williams, nisrealdeen, and sherwood, and then when mosley is gone in another year or two those guys youve been grooming are ready to fill in and Lloyd/Dean are the centerpiece of the D. 

 

The more i think about it the more it just makes sense as a move to make in a trade down.  This team is probably better off trading down and drafting a Lloyd and Wilson/Burks than it is drafting a Neal/Karlaftis/whatever edge would be around in that spot.  Just the way my mind is kind of working now thinking about it. 

The trade down if they can do it makes a ton of sense. I’m just not convinced they can. I also know we waffle on edge early but I’m sure they have a feel on Lawson’s recovery and likelihood of returning to form than we do. They think he won’t be the same and edge early shoots up. But that’d just mean trading down with one instead of both.

1 hour ago, kdels62 said:

I think Burks is a more explosive athlete with better coaching and competition. It’s why Burks will be a first rounder and Enunwa was a 6th rounder.  Enunwa would’ve been a great fit in this offense so obviously I think Burks will fit like a glove opposite Moore.

The fluidity is definitely different and Enunwa really lacked natural hands. Could make some great catches but looked awkward a lot. Burks body catches some but plucks better. I agree he fits like a glove. There are a few natural fits.

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49 minutes ago, derp said:

The trade down if they can do it makes a ton of sense. I’m just not convinced they can. I also know we waffle on edge early but I’m sure they have a feel on Lawson’s recovery and likelihood of returning to form than we do. They think he won’t be the same and edge early shoots up. But that’d just mean trading down with one instead of both.

The fluidity is definitely different and Enunwa really lacked natural hands. Could make some great catches but looked awkward a lot. Burks body catches some but plucks better. I agree he fits like a glove. There are a few natural fits.

The trade down scenario gets more interesting the more we win, and i think the more we win the more likely a trade down could become.  I know people are down on the QBs but SOMEONE is going to take a shot on one. Especially because trading up for one this year will be less costly than in other years. 

Say Jets picks are around that 6-12 range (Jets pick and Seattles pick). That may be the sweet spot for a QB this year.  Also too, I think people may be aggressive trading up for OL talent this year which seems odd since theres a decent amount of depth in the draft in spots on the OL but those early guys are either 1. undeniably excellent (Linderbaum). or 2. extremely versatile (Ekonwu./Neal). so i could see a team possibly trying to move up for one. 

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44 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

Also as we've been focused on the top 2 passrushers, it now seems that Ojabo is sliding into that third spot and may be in contention for the jets pick if they are in that 6-12 range

Another couple maybe mid teens, early 20's are the USC  kid and the FLA St guy.That's with a possible trade down.

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36 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

Also as we've been focused on the top 2 passrushers, it now seems that Ojabo is sliding into that third spot and may be in contention for the jets pick if they are in that 6-12 range

Ojabo overtaking Karlaftis is a tricky proposition to me. Ojabo is a quicker more dynamic athlete but Karlaftis has the reps and was the focal point of his defense. 667 snaps for Karlaftis to 500 for Ojabo. 

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4 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Ojabo overtaking Karlaftis is a tricky proposition to me. Ojabo is a quicker more dynamic athlete but Karlaftis has the reps and was the focal point of his defense. 667 snaps for Karlaftis to 500 for Ojabo. 

I think its going to come down to what youre looking for.  To me just on the surface Ojabo projects as more of speed passrusher who uses his athleticism to get to the QB and may have more upside as a player.  Karlaftis seems a little more balanced but also possibly close to tapped as a product, Im not sure how much higher his ceiling goes, conversely I think his floor is very high.  I honestly could see karlaftis going to the pats and just hunkering down and being a 8 sack a year guy but who also just handles the run extremely well.  

I guess maybe its just how i feel over reality but to me ojabo is more of the projection type player who has those raw tools to be a star, while karlaftis is more of a sure bet to be at minimum a good player, but maybe never special. 

 

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Just now, Chrebetfan80 said:

I think its going to come down to what youre looking for.  To me just on the surface Ojabo projects as more of speed passrusher who uses his athleticism to get to the QB and may have more upside as a player.  Karlaftis seems a little more balanced but also possibly close to tapped as a product, Im not sure how much higher his ceiling goes, conversely I think his floor is very high.  I honestly could see karlaftis going to the pats and just hunkering down and being a 8 sack a year guy but who also just handles the run extremely well.  

I guess maybe its just how i feel over reality but to me ojabo is more of the projection type player who has those raw tools to be a star, while karlaftis is more of a sure bet to be at minimum a good player, but maybe never special. 

 

Unrelated to those two but the future Patriot looks like Drake Jackson to me. Versatile dude who can move in space and then crash downhill when necessary. Smart player with better lateral mobility than pass rush moves. 

As for Karlaftis and Ojabo, I mostly agree. However did you know that Karlaftis is younger than Ojabo? His name has been out there for so long that it doesn’t seem true. I heard that it’s possible that Karlaftis could pack on 15+ lbs and transition to being a super athletic odd front 3 tech. Personally I see that as a waste. Ojabo is a speed dude with great mobility, I just have questions about him doing it without Hutchinson drawing attention. I’d be more comfortable with Ojabo in the mid teens to 20s range than taking him top 10 instead of taking Karlaftis. 

Could you imagine on rushing downs subbing into package that goes 

Karlaftis…Foley…Quinnen… JFM 

Thats size and pass rush in a sub package

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1 minute ago, kdels62 said:

Unrelated to those two but the future Patriot looks like Drake Jackson to me. Versatile dude who can move in space and then crash downhill when necessary. Smart player with better lateral mobility than pass rush moves. 

As for Karlaftis and Ojabo, I mostly agree. However did you know that Karlaftis is younger than Ojabo? His name has been out there for so long that it doesn’t seem true. I heard that it’s possible that Karlaftis could pack on 15+ lbs and transition to being a super athletic odd front 3 tech. Personally I see that as a waste. Ojabo is a speed dude with great mobility, I just have questions about him doing it without Hutchinson drawing attention. I’d be more comfortable with Ojabo in the mid teens to 20s range than taking him top 10 instead of taking Karlaftis. 

Could you imagine on rushing downs subbing into package that goes 

Karlaftis…Foley…Quinnen… JFM 

Thats size and pass rush in a sub package

Havent watched enough of jackson but its easy to envision anyone as a patriot lol they're annoying at finding guys that work eventually.  The nice thing about Ojabo is that if you select him you have the luxury of developing him since we have guys at those spots already.  he can come in and just be a speed rusher initially. Either way you could take either guy and make it work. 

id rather sub into a package of Lawson quinnen JFM and Karlaftis lol Foley is nice but get him out of there on rush downs and kick JFM inside.  Kind of what the 9ers did when they added Dee Ford.

I keep talking myself in and out of game plans in the draft.  Ive all but talked myself into LB and WR until now talking about passrushers and dreaming of 2 platoon rotations where you have JFM and Lawson then sub out and bring in Rookie X and Huff and just have fresh speedy pass rushers coming at you non stop. 

I cant make up my mindddddddddd

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2 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

Havent watched enough of jackson but its easy to envision anyone as a patriot lol they're annoying at finding guys that work eventually.  The nice thing about Ojabo is that if you select him you have the luxury of developing him since we have guys at those spots already.  he can come in and just be a speed rusher initially. Either way you could take either guy and make it work. 

id rather sub into a package of Lawson quinnen JFM and Karlaftis lol Foley is nice but get him out of there on rush downs and kick JFM inside.  Kind of what the 9ers did when they added Dee Ford.

I keep talking myself in and out of game plans in the draft.  Ive all but talked myself into LB and WR until now talking about passrushers and dreaming of 2 platoon rotations where you have JFM and Lawson then sub out and bring in Rookie X and Huff and just have fresh speedy pass rushers coming at you non stop. 

I cant make up my mindddddddddd

The one thing I will say is that stocking up in this year's draft was definitely a smart move. There are lot of really good prospects even if the cream is very thin at the top. I feel like JD does a good job of building depth on the roster, but we just lack the high-end talent in a lot of positions, so really, as long as the players pan out we can really go in a lot of places and come out successful.

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27 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

Havent watched enough of jackson but its easy to envision anyone as a patriot lol they're annoying at finding guys that work eventually.  The nice thing about Ojabo is that if you select him you have the luxury of developing him since we have guys at those spots already.  he can come in and just be a speed rusher initially. Either way you could take either guy and make it work. 

id rather sub into a package of Lawson quinnen JFM and Karlaftis lol Foley is nice but get him out of there on rush downs and kick JFM inside.  Kind of what the 9ers did when they added Dee Ford.

I keep talking myself in and out of game plans in the draft.  Ive all but talked myself into LB and WR until now talking about passrushers and dreaming of 2 platoon rotations where you have JFM and Lawson then sub out and bring in Rookie X and Huff and just have fresh speedy pass rushers coming at you non stop. 

I cant make up my mindddddddddd

Yeah that’s a more run heavy sub package. On passing down I’d imagine they run 

Lawson… Karlaftis… JFM… Huff

My mock drafts have started to be focused on different concepts. Connor Hughes said in his most recent podcast that vibe at 1 Jets Drive is that the offense will keep improving and that’s because it received a talent injection this past offseason, and they intend to do the same to the defense next offseason. With that in mind I secure the LB in rounds 1/2 and try to get 2 Edge by round 4.

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23 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Yeah that’s a more run heavy sub package. On passing down I’d imagine they run 

Lawson… Karlaftis… JFM… Huff

My mock drafts have started to be focused on different concepts. Connor Hughes said in his most recent podcast that vibe at 1 Jets Drive is that the offense will keep improving and that’s because it received a talent injection this past offseason, and they intend to do the same to the defense next offseason. With that in mind I secure the LB in rounds 1/2 and try to get 2 Edge by round 4.

The thing about a Ojabo is he really doesn’t know what he’s doing yet and he’s still insanely productive. I know Karlaftis is dealing with a lot more attention but 4.5 sacks in college that high in the draft…you’re always running a risk they don’t close.

I also think as both continue to mature and fill out Ojabo fits better in the Lawson role and Karlaftis in the JFM role. I kind of struggle with which makes more sense. My inclination is that it’s the Lawson role right now - who knows how he’s going to come back from injury and he’s not signed as far out. Lawson-Karlaftis-JFM-Huff works but so does Lawson-JFM-Q-Ojabo, and I’m not sure you want both DE’s to be DT’s on passing downs.

I do think a guy who can mix and match with JFM makes sense but I’d think that’s more Leal or Walker to be able to kick inside not just on passing downs. It would be cool to run out one of those guys instead of Fatukasi and move that guy and JFM around, but I’d think that means they’re not that committed to Williams long term. I’d rather see that day two than day one. 

It’s really not straightforward, because if you told me that maybe it makes sense to have JFM play more base DT and add Karlaftis and run out Lawson-Williams-JFM-Karlaftis as a base defense that could make sense too.

Also hope Hughes is wrong, I wouldn’t be surprised if he is. I think the more important positions to draft are offense and they can go a long way towards improving this defense in FA and on day two.

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