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Zach represented by Bosa's team and JD won't budge..


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30 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

And it wont make a bit of difference.  

I disagree.  If one or three practices make a difference, hes a bust 

 

19 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Is Zach Wilson such a fringe prospect that the loss of a day will ruin him this year?  

No one said anything about him being a bust. That doesn’t mean it’s good to have him on a different page than the rest of the offense.  That’s bad.  This isn’t rocket science guys.

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When Zach forces his way to Seattle you’ll all be cheering Joe Douglas as a genius for getting draft picks.   SAR I

You’re a master in the art of bad posting, but this might be your opus.      

It's a problem of motivation Bob. I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime, so where's the motivation? And here's another thing, I have eight different bosses ri

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1 minute ago, slats said:

I don’t. Basically, putting off signing bonus money has zero cap effect, it’s just about withholding funds from the player that you eventually will have to pay. So that’s all about ownership, nothing about the GM’s job.

Yes, I am aware.  I have not described this as a Cap issue or a GM Issue (per se). 

The GM IS responsible for signing the player, so it is by definition a GM issue, but I don't have any concern with JD for it.

1 minute ago, slats said:

And offset money is pennies. It’s basically some insurance that if Zach Wilson sucks so bad that they cut him, they get back whatever another team gives him at that point.

Yes, exactly.  I'm 100% behind this idea.

1 minute ago, slats said:

How much could that possibly be?

I presume it would depend on what the other teams pays him.

1 minute ago, slats said:

And if Zach sucks somewhat, they can trade him to another team that absorbs his contract like we just saw with Darnold.

A possibility to be sure.

1 minute ago, slats said:

It’s petty, ugly, and looks bad for the Jets.

If that's how you want to feel about it, that's your right.  Nobody outside a small part of NY/NJ cares, they're all too busy caring about their own teams.  League-side, it (as others have noted) is a larger Ownership issue where ownership is trying to hold a line on this concept.  So it doesn't look bad to the league.

1 minute ago, slats said:

 Like I said, the precedent they should be trying to set is not having the #2 pick in the draft anytime soon.

He could be here any time, if he gave in on this minor issue.  

Tell me slats, you've made it sound like nothing, pennies as you say, so why is it worth so much to Zach that he's willing to hold out to have it his way?  You said "he gets paid it anyway", so what is the loss to Zach by giving in?

1 minute ago, slats said:

That probably involves getting the kid you deemed worthy of this year’s #2 pick into camp and at work. 

We'd all like that.  

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I've been on the Zach Wilson bandwagon since around Thanksgiving, but if he doesn't have the confidence in himself  to be sure he won't be cut before his contract is up, he's the wrong man for the job.

If he won't sign for some other reason, then he's full of sh-t.  

All he's been talking about is bonding with his WR's, and getting together to get their timeing down.  TEAM GUY

Elijah Moore's dad tweeted a week ago for everyone to relax, Wilson would be signed by Friday.  I strongly suspect that Wilson told Moore that he'd be there.

This guy needs to get his butt in camp................Tomorrow   

Take the money up front, and screw the offsets. 

It isn't making him a leader by tweeting pictures of him and his hot girl friend having fun while all his team mates are busting their butts in camp

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

 

No one said anything about him being a bust.

No, you never said bust.  But you were expressing great concern over him missing a day.  

I expect a great prospect to be able to absorb missing a day.  Do you not?

7 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

That doesn’t mean it’s good to have him on a different page than the rest of the offense.  That’s bad.  This isn’t rocket science guys.

Is a single day going to put him "on a different page" in a lasting way?

Is that something a great prospect cannot recover form over all the other days of practice and preseason before opening day?

I'd agree it's not rocket science.  If Zach misses a week or more, thats a problem.  A day?  Even I think Zach can overcome the loss of a single day or two, and I'm one of the biggest Zach "show me" guys on this site.

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2 minutes ago, GangGreened said:

Isn’t part of the issue is the Jets don’t want to pay him “upfront?”

Never has been before, if the player accepts the off sets.  

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3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Tell me slats, you've made it sound like nothing, pennies as you say, so why is it worth so much to Zach that he's willing to hold out to have it his way?  You said "he gets paid it anyway", so what is the loss to Zach by giving in?

I’d say it’s mostly agent driven, but rightly so. They’re looking to set their own precedent. These contracts have been negotiated to be fully guaranteed. This is the Jets trying to chip away at that in case their GM made a disastrous choice at #2, but still think someone else might sign him at that point (whenever it is) that it will somehow *offset* some of the $35M they’ve guaranteed he’ll get one way or the other. Keeping in mind that if someone picks him up on waivers, they absorb the entire contract. It’s a petty clause that I think you’d have a tough time finding an example where the team made out. I have no example. 

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2 minutes ago, slats said:

I’d say it’s mostly agent driven, but rightly so. They’re looking to set their own precedent. These contracts have been negotiated to be fully guaranteed. This is the Jets trying to chip away at that in case their GM made a disastrous choice at #2, but still think someone else might sign him at that point (whenever it is) that it will somehow *offset* some of the $35M they’ve guaranteed he’ll get one way or the other. Keeping in mind that if someone picks him up on waivers, they absorb the entire contract. It’s a petty clause that I think you’d have a tough time finding an example where the team made out. I have no example. 

So it's agents and owners fighting over precedent and pennies (your word) that has no effect on the player himself or how much he will get paid.

And that is why Zach has chosen not be here on Day 1.

Got it.

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27 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

People need to Relax. This is all part of the plan. The other players need a few days of practice to catch up with Zach, who has already digested the new playbook, and the Jets coaching staff is still figuring out how to allocate Gregg Knapp's job duties.

If there ever was a time and a QB who could afford to miss his first 2 or 3 days of pro practice, this is it. 

I have to agree with you on the Gregg Knapp comment, we now have an inexperienced Offensive coaching staff as well.  First year OC , first year QB Coach ,Knapp was going to oversee Zach and the offense with Matt LF.  The most experienced offensive coaches are TE coach Ron Middleton and run game coordinator Jon Benton. Happy to Have Leon Washington on the staff he understands this sh*t.

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On 7/19/2021 at 6:44 PM, Dinamite said:

Our second round pick hasn't signed either (although he has the same agent as AVT and maybe even Joe D I believe).

Yes he has signed. 

 

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54 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

If there ever was a time and a QB who could afford to miss his first 2 or 3 days of pro practice, this is it. 

zachlaguh.gif

SAR I

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54 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I didn't see that post, do you have a link to it (or the article).  Appreciated in advance.

I assume this is the article that he is referring to -- written before Lance agreed to terms this AM.  I really do not understand eitehr side in this one.  How they could be dug in on two relatively inconsequential issues for three months with no resolution.  But here we are.

https://overthecap.com/wilson-and-lance-remain-unsigned/

With every team reporting to camp we still have two rookie who remain unsigned- Zach Wilson of the New York Jets and Trey Lance of the San Francisco 49ers. It is really inexcusable for teams at this stage to not have their rookies signed. Every year we project the contracts and are usually within $100 of the entire four year total so there is nothing that goes into that part of the process. So let’s look at what the issues could be.

Guarantee Language- This was an issue before with the Jets when they drafted Sam Darnold in 2018. Basically team’s have various terms by which the guarantees in a contract can void. Recent issues have regarded things like suspensions for helmet to helmet type of stuff which is a vastly different scenario than being suspended for drugs. If I remember correctly the Jets issue with Darnold was that they wanted a fine by the league to also constitute a violation of the guarantee. 
Overall, this is basically meaningless. If a player is good it doesn’t matter if he does or does not have a guaranteed salary and you should be going into this with all positive thoughts. How many players in the top 10 had their guarantees void, thus protecting the team?  Since 2011 just three- Dion Jordan, Justin Gilbert, and Leonard Fournette. Of the three only Fournette’s was for something that might be an issue with a guarantee clause while the other two were hit for standard stuff.

Bonus Payment Schedules- A big deal was made a few weeks ago when the Jaguars agreed to pay Trevor Lawrence his entire signing bonus with two weeks of signing. This was a concession by Jacksonville as it is a big amount to pay at once. I could see this being a legit hang up except, as noted by Joel Corry, both the Jets and 49ers have done this already.

So if this is the issue for either team they are either breaking with precedent or are simply waiting until the last second to avoid making a payment until it is absolutely necessary, which is not really in the best interest of the team.

Offsets- Salary offsets allow a team to avoid paying out a guarantee if the player, after being released, earns a salary with another team. This has generally been the biggest hang up over rookie contracts even though it is just a fight for the sake of having a fight. In reality it does little for both sides. If the player is great, which everyone thinks the player is when they draft them, he won’t be released so offsets do not come into play. If the player is so bad that he is going to be cut, well the offset isn’t going to come into play then either because nobody will want the player. Essentially you have to have a player who is not good enough to play for you but is good enough to get a look elsewhere. More often than not the player only receives the minimum salary from another team in that scenario so at most you are looking at insuring $1.055 million of a contract worth $34 to $35 million dollars.
Here is the reality- it almost never comes into play. I looked at every top 10 selection since 2011 and determined their rookie contract outcome. Of the 71 draft picks who have already reached a rookie contract outcome guess how many an offset would have come into play? One. Ereck Flowers. That is it. Of the other players who were released outright they had already voided their guarantees or simply never were signed to play anywhere else. So really what are you fighting over?  A 1 to 3% chance to recover about 3% of the entire contract value. I’m sure you can pat yourself on the back for that while sitting on the couch after you were fired for drafting a bust.

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6 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So it's agents and owners fighting over precedent and pennies (your word) that has no effect on the player himself or how much he will get paid.

And that is why Zach has chosen not be here on Day 1.

Got it.

It’s pennies for the owners, dollars for the player. He’s signing a contract that’s gonna amount to about 1.5% of their salary cap. The amount of money he might make if they deem him to be a bust and he signs somewhere else will be minuscule in that respect, but still potentially meaningful to the individual. Even if it’s just the couple million dollars, that is literally chump change to an NFL franchise. Obviously not to the player. 
 
But that’s if it’s just about offset language. If it’s about not paying the signing bonus at signing, then that’s 100% on ownership and the player/agent should dig in. You’re calling this a signing bonus? Oh, cool, I’d like that at signing then please. 

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14 minutes ago, slats said:

I’d say it’s mostly agent driven, but rightly so. They’re looking to set their own precedent. These contracts have been negotiated to be fully guaranteed. This is the Jets trying to chip away at that in case their GM made a disastrous choice at #2, but still think someone else might sign him at that point (whenever it is) that it will somehow *offset* some of the $35M they’ve guaranteed he’ll get one way or the other. Keeping in mind that if someone picks him up on waivers, they absorb the entire contract. It’s a petty clause that I think you’d have a tough time finding an example where the team made out. I have no example. 

your right it is about precedent. that why JD has to stick to him guns.

this isnt all about Zach. this is about the next guy. if you gave it to Zach you can bet FAs and guys like QW will demand it in there contracts too.

im not sure about the cap space but i would guess if another teams picks up some of a players salary it lessens our cap.

 

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1 minute ago, doitny said:

your right it is about precedent. that why JD has to stick to him guns.

this isnt all about Zach. this is about the next guy. if you gave it to Zach you can bet FAs and guys like QW will demand it in there contracts too.

im not sure about the cap space but i would guess if another teams picks up some of a players salary it lessens our cap.

 

This negotiation has zero to do with future  veteran negotiations. It has to do with negotiations with the next player the Jets pick #2 because they’re again/still that bad. QW will either get franchised or a market based contract when he’s up. 

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6 minutes ago, slats said:

This negotiation has zero to do with future  veteran negotiations. It has to do with negotiations with the next player the Jets pick #2 because they’re again/still that bad. QW will either get franchised or a market based contract when he’s up. 

so there fighting for something veterans cant get? 

the NFL really messed up on this

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2 minutes ago, doitny said:

so there fighting for something veterans cant get? 

the NFL really messed up on this

They’re fighting over loopholes in the rookie cap. It has nothing to do with veteran players. 

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3 hours ago, Trotter said:

Maybe. But it is the truth. I will be fair and put it on the jets and not Joe D specifically. I do believe he is part of it though.

This situation and this team is actually a bit unique to the rest of the league. You already went through this exact situation 3 years ago with the # 3 pick. Your contract structure has not changed but you did not see this coming? If you did (I certainly hope so) why are we still doing this on the day of camp. This should have been resolved last week with either the Jets conceding on the critical points (might happen) or an ultimatum given to Zach's agent/team.

The fact that it is happening and not resolved this late is simply on the Jets.

 

 

However this ends up and 

turns out i was fed back intel... i believe 100% in my reasoning, but it wasn't about that... it's a matter of saying "I want what he has"... which happens in every work place ever since unions came into existence.

The real one at fault? Big Macc and his contract w/ Darnold. 

Go figure. Big Macc gets the last, last... last laugh. Again. 

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49 minutes ago, flgreen said:

 

It isn't making him a leader by tweeting pictures of him and his hot girl friend having fun while all his team mates are busting their butts in camp

 

 

That was a bit of a head scratcher.  He's been pretty good about this kind of stuff but that just reeked of lacking self awareness.

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Screw the precedents, probably worth it to have your rookie starting QB come into camp happy. I guess the front office would rather he show up feeling like he just lost in negotiations? I’m sure that will help everyone feel like they’re in this together 

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41 minutes ago, Lith said:

 

https://overthecap.com/wilson-and-lance-remain-unsigned/

 

Guarantee Language- This was an issue before with the Jets when they drafted Sam Darnold in 2018. Basically team’s have various terms by which the guarantees in a contract can void. Recent issues have regarded things like suspensions for helmet to helmet type of stuff which is a vastly different scenario than being suspended for drugs. If I remember correctly the Jets issue with Darnold was that they wanted a fine by the league to also constitute a violation of the guarantee. 
Overall, this is basically meaningless. If a player is good it doesn’t matter if he does or does not have a guaranteed salary and you should be going into this with all positive thoughts. How many players in the top 10 had their guarantees void, thus protecting the team?  Since 2011 just three- Dion Jordan, Justin Gilbert, and Leonard Fournette. Of the three only Fournette’s was for something that might be an issue with a guarantee clause while the other two were hit for standard stuff.

 

Actually the Guarantee language seems pretty serious here.  Maybe someone can explain this to me better.  

But does it mean if the player gets fined for something like a helmet to helmet hit he can lose his entire guarantee?

If I'm a player I wouldn't want to sign that either.  

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44 minutes ago, Fibonacci said:

Yeah

F the agents really. Doesn't Zach know he is being a toy in his agents long game? Shame on you kid.  

His family owns an airplane company and probably has more liquid than Woody.

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3 minutes ago, Flightattendant said:

Are people flying places right now? Probably needs every penny he can get.

Planes have been packed to the t!ts

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3 minutes ago, Flightattendant said:

Are people flying places right now? Probably needs every penny he can get.

Planes have been as packed to the t!ts

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38 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So it's agents and owners fighting over precedent and pennies (your word) that has no effect on the player himself or how much he will get paid.

And that is why Zach has chosen not be here on Day 1.

Got it.

exactly...

Zach through his agent has chosen not to be there....in hind sight 10 years from now, no one will remember BUT just stupid from the players side and to be given this bad advice. 

He should be here. 

 

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