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The first TD to Krofty, uses his eyes and head to move the safety to the right opening the play up and throws a perfect pass on Krofts back shoulder away from coverage for the TD was awesome.  I don’t care about who’s a  backup on D.  Those are subtle moves and details you don’t see often from rookies

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31 minutes ago, WowOhWow said:

.....and this QB is unlike any other QB we've had in here.  He is literally built for the modern NFL.  Quick twitch, great/natural thrower of the ball.

If you added in something about "elite accuracy" and "better than Rodgers", this could be a literal quote from dozens of posters during Sam Darnold's first season.

This is the trouble I have with the analysis here at JN, the (generally) complete lack of objectivity combined with the massive hype of new exciting players, leads to bulk numbers of hyperbolic glowing posts just like the one above, declaring how amazingly special and great player X is before he's really proven anything at all.

I do like what I've seen from Wilson (said, I'll remind, as a Wilson doubter who wouldn't have picked him), it's been very impressive.  But we cannot just slip past that yes, it's been almost all against backups or 3rd stringers, and yes, it's vanilla preseason when coverages are about as bland and easy as they come.

It's why I keep repeating, Week 1 is the REAL first test of who Zack Wilson is and where he is in his development.  No vanilla.  No backups.  No clean pockets free of the blitz.  No (or minimal) scripted play-calling on either side.

If Wilson looks in Week 1 like he's looked in Preseason, that's gonna be a great start, a real reason for some measured excitement.  But I'm not buying into hype based on preseason.

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7 minutes ago, Warfish said:

If you added in something about "elite accuracy" and "better than Rodgers", this could be a literal quote from dozens of posters during Sam Darnold's first season.

This is the trouble I have with the analysis here at JN, the (generally) complete lack of objectivity combined with the massive hype of new exciting players, leads to bulk numbers of hyperbolic glowing posts just like the one above, declaring how amazingly special and great player X is before he's really proven anything at all.

I do like what I've seen from Wilson (said, I'll remind, as a Wilson doubter who wouldn't have picked him), it's been very impressive.  But we cannot just slip past that yes, it's been almost all against backups or 3rd stringers, and yes, it's vanilla preseason when coverages are about as bland and easy as they come.

It's why I keep repeating, Week 1 is the REAL first test of who Zack Wilson is and where he is in his development.  No vanilla.  No backups.  No clean pockets free of the blitz.  No (or minimal) scripted play-calling on either side.

If Wilson looks in Week 1 like he's looked in Preseason, that's gonna be a great start, a real reason for some measured excitement.  But I'm not buying into hype based on preseason.

Name me another QB we've had in here that so early in his career, confronted with the same set of circumstances (pre season only, vanilla defenses, etc.) that has shown the capabilities Zach has?  

That was my point.  He's an agile, extremely athletic, natural thrower.  If you can't see that you're blind.

Who else have we had in here with those characteristics that's displayed what he's displayed in the same circumstances?

I can't predict the future.  As Parcells used to say you gotta go with what you see.  What I've seen is extremely encouraging and unique from a Jets QB perspective.

 

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23 minutes ago, nycdan said:

When we won that first game and watched T-Law vanish in a puff of smoke before our QB-starved eyes, I was pretty upset.  At the time, I was thinking, well Fields isn't a bad consolation prize.  

Then it became clear that Wilson was going to be our consolation prize and I started to adjust, still lamenting the loss of Lawrence when we were so close...

Flash forward to now.  I think winning those two games might be the best thing that ever happened to this franchise.  Not saying Lawrence will not be very good or great, and not saying Wilson will be better, but at this point, there's nothing to suggest Wilson won't be a fantastic quarterback for us, hopefully for a very long time and I could not be more pleased.  Honestly, if I could switch Wilson for Lawrence straight up right now, I'm pretty sure I'd say no.

We've come along way since last December.

Brandon Mann has gone from goat to hero in my book.

The punter makes a tackle that changes the future of the franchise.

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1 minute ago, WowOhWow said:

If you can't see that you're blind.

I got called blind re: not seeing the brilliant uniqueness of elite skills possessed by Darnold too. 

Sanchez before that.  Geno as well, albeit less.

Time has shown quite clearly who the real blind folks, who rushed to judgement, were.

To be clear, I'm not even being critical of Wilson here, he's given precious little to be critical of to-date.  I'm just not anointing him some great player till he does it against real opponents in real games that count.  Seems reasonable enough.

1 minute ago, WowOhWow said:

What I've seen is extremely encouraging and unique from a Jets QB perspective.

Encouraging yes, I agree. 

Unique?  No.  

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Just now, FidelioJet said:

I don't expect him to look as good in the regular season as he does in the pre-season.  I expect it to be much more mistake riddled, much less success....but I do expect to see many of the same traits, patience, progressions through reads and good instincts.  But the speed of the game, the blitzing, he's going to get hit for the first time etc...All of those things are overwhelming.

I agree.

Just now, FidelioJet said:

But we shouldn't judge him based on week 1 of a real NFL game or even the entire rookie season by expecting it to look as good as he does in the pre-season.  There are going to be A LOT of growing pains and we should all be prepared for them.

I agree.  

We can start forming some real analysis of his skills and quality of play, but it's going to require (IMO) two seasons to "know what we have" in Zack Wilson.

Just now, FidelioJet said:

We need to judge him on what we see on film, not stats and not W's and L's this year.  Is he making the right choices? Is he making accurate throws? his he decisive? how's his footwork etc...

Players who make the right choices, make accurate throws in a decisive way with good footwork.......usually produce stats. :)

W's and L's are team Stats.  So I agree there.

But we absolutely should evaluate Wilson based on his production of tangible results, yards, TD's, compl. %, etc.

Such an eval. should be reasonable, i.e. a good starting point would be vs. other recent rookie QB's and of course this year's crop as well.  

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33 minutes ago, nycdan said:

When we won that first game and watched T-Law vanish in a puff of smoke before our QB-starved eyes, I was pretty upset.  At the time, I was thinking, well Fields isn't a bad consolation prize.  

Then it became clear that Wilson was going to be our consolation prize and I started to adjust, still lamenting the loss of Lawrence when we were so close...

Flash forward to now.  I think winning those two games might be the best thing that ever happened to this franchise.  Not saying Lawrence will not be very good or great, and not saying Wilson will be better, but at this point, there's nothing to suggest Wilson won't be a fantastic quarterback for us, hopefully for a very long time and I could not be more pleased.  Honestly, if I could switch Wilson for Lawrence straight up right now, I'm pretty sure I'd say no.

We've come along way since last December.

I followed a similar path to the one you just outlined.  But the only way we were going to Get TL was to go 0-16.  We have enough bad stats/games/years associated with the Jets. There have only been two teams in HISTORY to go 0-16; we did NOT need to be #3.  whether TL or Zach wind up being better, I much prefer the way it turned out.

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17 minutes ago, Warfish said:

If you added in something about "elite accuracy" and "better than Rodgers", this could be a literal quote from dozens of posters during Sam Darnold's first season.

 

Yes and no.  

I was as excited by the Darnold pick as anyone.  I wanted him over Mayfield (but I was also high on Rosen which shows what I know and don't know).  Pre-draft, I would go as far as to say I was much higher on Darnold at that time than I was on Wilson this time around.

But I do not recall anyone using 'elite accuracy' with respect to Darnold.  And as far as NFL comps, it was another GB great who people compared Darnold to.  He was all Brett Favre.  Gunslinger who could make plays on the scramble.  But he was never comped to Rodgers.  

Wilson is a different cat.  He shows more accuracy, touch and judgment at this point than Sam did.  I'll be the first to say that he probably has far better talent around him and without doubt has a better coach and system in place.  Sam may have done far better in another place and will get that chance perhaps this year (although I'm not sure CAR is a big step up in terms of those things).  But the feeling this time is different.  

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3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

 

Players who make the right choices, make accurate throws in a decisive way with good footwork.......usually produce stats. :)

But we absolutely should evaluate Wilson based on his production of tangible results, yards, TD's, compl. %, etc.

Such an eval. should be reasonable, i.e. a good starting point would be vs. other recent rookie QB's and of course this year's crop as well.  

Of course stats are a reasonable measuring stick - but that shouldn't be the primary focus.  There are just too many variables involved.  We should judge him on his tape.  Sure if his tape looks good he should produce but if we really want to judge the kids potential it should be deeper than a stat line.

OL - we really don't know what we have right now.  We had the worst OL in the NFL last year and, as of right now, it's looking like we've only upgraded one spot and that is with a rookie who may or may not be healthy.

Score of the game - Too early to judge but our corners aren't looking very good and the Jets will likely be playing from behind a lot - will change the dynamic of the offense.  

 

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9 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I got called blind re: not seeing the brilliant uniqueness of elite skills possessed by Darnold too. 

Sanchez before that.  Geno as well, albeit less.

Time has shown quite clearly who the real blind folks, who rushed to judgement, were.

To be clear, I'm not even being critical of Wilson here, he's given precious little to be critical of to-date.  I'm just not anointing him some great player till he does it against real opponents in real games that count.  Seems reasonable enough.

Encouraging yes, I agree. 

Unique?  No.  

All true. I remember Sanchez’s first pass was a bomb down the sideline and we were all gaga. I was very excited about Darnold as well and that first game against Detroit was great. His accuracy and ability to protect the football was always a concern though going back to college, and he had a hitch in his throwing motion.  Wilson protected the football great in college and he seems so poised, with a very smooth throwing motion, which to me seems unique from our past QB prospects. Obviously time will tell. Even Hackenberg led a great TD drive his first preseason game. I’m not going to temper my enthusiasm though. Until proven wrong I’m all in on the idea that he’s going to be a great QB. I can take it if I’m wrong, I’m a Jet fan. 

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A lot of work to do for Zach but if we can't be excited with what we've seen then people are crazy.  We've been burned before so I understand if fans are nervous but I think we are entering an era that will be really fun.

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2 hours ago, nycdan said:

But I do not recall anyone using 'elite accuracy' with respect to Darnold.  And as far as NFL comps, it was another GB great who people compared Darnold to.  He was all Brett Favre.  Gunslinger who could make plays on the scramble.  But he was never comped to Rodgers. 

Funny how memory works, isn't it?  The search feature is there if you'd like to be reminded of what was said about Sam back then. 

In fairness, "dozens of posters" is likely hyperbole on my part, it's likely closer to a handful of loud posters, lol, with others just agreeing/not contesting the claim.

Quote

Wilson is a different cat.  He shows more accuracy, touch and judgment at this point than Sam did.  I'll be the first to say that he probably has far better talent around him and without doubt has a better coach and system in place.  Sam may have done far better in another place and will get that chance perhaps this year (although I'm not sure CAR is a big step up in terms of those things).  But the feeling this time is different.  

Well said, and agreed.  He does have materially better talent supporting him, but he also looks quite a bit more "real" than Darnold did.

There is nothing about what we've seen from Wilson to be mad or doubtful or otherwise critical of, as yet.  As a huge doubter of him, I'm impressed so far.  But he's not special or unique (lol) just yet.

We get our first look at that possibility week 1.  Not in preseason.

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37 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Of course stats are a reasonable measuring stick - but that shouldn't be the primary focus.  There are just too many variables involved.  We should judge him on his tape.  Sure if his tape looks good he should produce but if we really want to judge the kids potential it should be deeper than a stat line.

OL - we really don't know what we have right now.  We had the worst OL in the NFL last year and, as of right now, it's looking like we've only upgraded one spot and that is with a rookie who may or may not be healthy.

Score of the game - Too early to judge but our corners aren't looking very good and the Jets will likely be playing from behind a lot - will change the dynamic of the offense.  

 

Agree with much of what you have said in this thread, but I think I am with Warfish on the stats argument.  Since we drafted Sanchez in 2009, there have been 34 QBs who started 10+ games as a rookie, including 3 Jets.  All 3 Jets, Darnold, Sanchez and Geno ranked in the bottom 3rd in QB rating.  And for the most part, we rationalied it away.  

Sanchez (26th ranked) was great in late game, pressure situations and led us to road wins in the playoffs.  He is going to be the real deal despite his below average numbers.  Geno (29th) was not expected to start as a rookie, but Sanchez got hurt, he was forced in before he was ready, but the Jets won 3 of 4 in December.  He is going to be the real deal despite below average numbers.  Same story for Sam (24th), struggled at times but was one of the highest rated QBs in NFL last month of his rookie year.  He is going to be the real deal despite average numbers.

I am excited by what I have seen from Wilson so far, but I want him to have a rookie year where we don't have to rationalize his numbers like many fans (not necessarily you) have done with the last 3 guys. He absolutely will have some bad games, but on the whole, I hope he puts numbers that are good enough that we don't have to make excuses.

I hiope the tape and the process look good, but I also hope he finishes with a passer rating of 90+ which would put him in the top half of historical rookie QBs.

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51 minutes ago, Warfish said:

If you added in something about "elite accuracy" and "better than Rodgers", this could be a literal quote from dozens of posters during Sam Darnold's first season.

This is the trouble I have with the analysis here at JN, the (generally) complete lack of objectivity combined with the massive hype of new exciting players, leads to bulk numbers of hyperbolic glowing posts just like the one above, declaring how amazingly special and great player X is before he's really proven anything at all.

I do like what I've seen from Wilson (said, I'll remind, as a Wilson doubter who wouldn't have picked him), it's been very impressive.  But we cannot just slip past that yes, it's been almost all against backups or 3rd stringers, and yes, it's vanilla preseason when coverages are about as bland and easy as they come.

It's why I keep repeating, Week 1 is the REAL first test of who Zack Wilson is and where he is in his development.  No vanilla.  No backups.  No clean pockets free of the blitz.  No (or minimal) scripted play-calling on either side.

If Wilson looks in Week 1 like he's looked in Preseason, that's gonna be a great start, a real reason for some measured excitement.  But I'm not buying into hype based on preseason.

It's is not about the stats or TD's for me that is building excitement. It's the ability to go through progressions. The coach coming out and saying he is light years ahead of where a rookie should be. The ability to change speeds regarding throws. A lightning fast release as advertised. He looks like he has "it". I never saw that from Sam. You saw "it" immediately from Mahomes and Rodgers regardless of results. Those two are special talents. They had great teachers and talent around them. Is Lafleur a great teacher? We will have to wait and see. I tell you what, the loss of Knapp is a big for this kid, can't be denied. The scheme/talent/coaching has to equal his ability or he will struggle more than he should. That is the true question in my eyes. IMO Davis/Moore/Crowder/Cole/Barrios and Kroft are a talented unit of targets. Add Carter and Coleman and he has the weapons to succeed, not KC weapons obviously, but talented. It comes down to the coaching to develop his advanced and stout skillset.

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6 minutes ago, Lith said:

Agree with much of what you have said in this thread, but I think I am with Warfish on the stats argument.  Since we drafted Sanchez in 2009, there have been 34 QBs who started 10+ games as a rookie, including 3 Jets.  All 3 Jets, Darnold, Sanchez and Geno ranked in the bottom 3rd in QB rating.  And for the most part, we rationalied it away.  

Sanchez (26th ranked) numbers was great in late game, pressure situations and led us to road wins in the playoffs.  He is going to be the real deal despite his below average numbers.  Geno (29th) was not expected to start as a rookie, but Sanchez got hurt, he was forced in before he was ready, but the Jets won 3 of 4 in December.  He is going to be the real deal despite below average numbers.  Same story for Sam (24th), struggled at times but was one of the highest rated QBs in NFL last month of his rookie year.  He is going to be the real deal despite average numbers.

I am excited by what I have seen from Wilson so far, but I want him to have a rookie year where we don't have to rationalize his numbers like many fans (not necessarily you) have done with the last 3 guys. He absolutely will have some bad games, but on the whole, I hope he puts numbers that are good enough that we don't have to make excuses.

I hiope the tape and the process look good, but I also hope he finishes with a passer rating of 90+ which would put him in the top half of historical rookie QBs.

Agreed.  If we are sitting here in week 12 and Zach is at 54% completion, 12TDs/14INTs then there are problems.  Given this system and the supporting cast around him, Zach should put up good stats, if he’s they guy that everyone is proclaiming him to be, then the numbers need to match those expectations.  I’m not saying he needs to put up the same season statistically that Justin Herbert did, but we should have the same feeling that Charger fans had at the end of last season, and that is we finally have our guy.   No rationalizations, excuses, blaming coaches, weapons etc, etc.  we should KNOW he’s the guy.  

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3 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Agreed.  If we are sitting here in week 12 and Zach is at 54% completion, 12TDs/14INTs then there are problems.  Given this system and the supporting cast around him, Zach should put up good stats, if he’s they guy that everyone is proclaiming him to be, then the numbers need to match those expectations.  I’m not saying he needs to put up the same season statistically that Justin Herbert did, but we should have the same feeling that Charger fans had at the end of last season, and that is we finally have our guy.   No rationalizations, excuses, blaming coaches, weapons etc, etc.  we should KNOW he’s the guy.  

Those rationalizations are real things though. The Jets did in fact, have awful coaching, they had the worst skill position players in the league, they did have the worst OL in the NFL.    

We can know he's our guy and not have the stats to support it.  Sam never really flashed, never really showed anything that got me excited.  He had maybe two games in three years that got me excited. 

While the talent level on the Jets has clearly gotten better (we think) it's still relying on very young and unproven talent.  

I would love to see him put up great numbers - and he very well might, I expect him too....but circumstances matter. 

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The concern that we have to have at this point is  with our defense reeling, we are probably going to be giving up more points, leading to a more pass-heavy offense, which puts Zach at a distinctive disadvantage.  One of the reasons Sanchez had so much success was a strong defense and running game. 

It is what it is but it's definitely unfortunate.

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Going back to my original post here's another NFL pundit whose opinion I value summarizing my exact sentiment.

I realize we haven't played games yet, some may have felt warm and fuzzy about Darnold, etc.  

With QB being the most important position it's great to see our rookie showing very positive signs.  No more, no less.  

image.png.9210029d066cc907dfdedc3ff9c373ef.png

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We have been so tortured as a fan base with horrible QB play and offensive design these last few years. It should be a real treat watching a real nfl system and quality QB play. Amazingly Zach has not a single 3 and out drive yet in the preseason. These past few years it has seemed like a major accomplishment just to get a freaking first down!😂

sign me up for some 35-31 shootout loses😃

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I think it's naïve to read to much into his overall performance/stats from the preseason -- obviously he's largely playing with our #1 offense against mainly #2 defenses playing a vanilla scheme.

But I'd echo what others have said -- physically he looks like he belongs. He doesn't look overwhelmed. The ball pops our of his hand, he's made quick decisive decisions. Seems to be comfortable and command.

Generally it's okay to feel good about it. Who knows how it will play out but the early returns are good and the idea that he's physically not up to snuff or would look totally lost against NFL players having played at BYU (which were probably the two biggest concerns about him) don't seem to be accurate.

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We can only go by what we see.  All we have is preseason camp and these two preseason games.

No one is putting him in Canton.  We're just commenting on what others are saying and what we've seen.

The same can be said about the Jet coaching staff.  So far they seem to be doing a very good job.

The QB and coaching staff seem competent, in command.  It's been eons since that's been the case.

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I am a huge ZW guy ... but let's all hold our water a bit ... the kid hasn't seen a 1st team defense yet. I have full confidence and am exciting to see where he takes us.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

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I don't care that it's against 2's the bigger thing is that it's vanilla looks.  

Once he builds up a visual library of the regular season NFL defenses, Iook out.  Then he will be able to play like this in prime time. 

It's what allows the greats like Rodgers to pick defenses apart and Wilson clearly has it.  

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