explain this to me

[rex-n-effect]

You haven't needed permission from other posters to complain about everything why start now.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

55 minutes ago, Kolchak said:

I take it as a positive that the GM will cut his picks.  It's one thing to make a pick.  It's another to stick with the pick regardless of their poor showing or poor fit.  Seems to me that's how you keep Hackenberg and pass on Mahommes and Watson. 

Belichick would cut bait on someone not working out.  JD should too.

Belichick was willing to cut WR sensation Braxton Berrios, so he knows when it's time to cut bait. 

[FidelioJet]

23 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

Honestly can't tell if this is serious are not.

Whether someone's a contributor or a starter directly correlates to how good or bad the roster is. Blessuan Austin was a starter last year and is without a job this year. So by your amazing logic he was a fantastic pick until 2 days ago.

Any punter who is drafted is going to start. Any kicker who is drafted is going to start. To include Mann as if he's some amazing find in the later rounds is actually discrediting to any point you're trying to make. Mann has actually underperformed to justify using a pick. Any punter worth a draft pick should be at least top half of the league in most categories and Mann came nowhere close. 

Again. Huff wasn't drafted. He's not a draft pick. He does not count. At all.

So I guess Mims has gotten considerably worse this year seeing as he's dropped from "starter" to "contributor". We should be worried about such a decline because obviously such classifications have nothing to do with the external context and are totally reflective of the players quality. All of Mims, Davis, Perine are further down the depth chart than they were this time a year ago. 

Nonsense. All of it. The draft has been a debacle to this point.

Look, honestly I'm not declaring this draft a success...I've actually been pretty clear about that in many posts.

I think it's premature to do that - but I also think it's FAAAAAAR to premature to say it's bad...

Especially considering the fact that so many of these players will be contributing.  We know JD isn't afraid to cut his own guys so it's telling me if they're on the roster, starting or prepared to play big roles than there must be something there.

Stop with the Huff thing - You're grasping there.   You can call him an UDFA all you want - he's part of the 2020 draft class - you know it, I know it and any realistic person knows it.  

Now, to the HOF statement.  If  (and I agree it's a big IF) these 4 players actually do become long term starters and 2 become high level contributors - Yes, an 86% hit rate is HOF level GMing....

 

[Green Truth]

Douglas's 2020 3rd and 4th round were an absolute mess.   Morgan and Perine were a waste.  Ahstyn Davis was not on anyone's mind on this board.  Zuniga is a waste.  In the 3rd round we needed OL, WR, TE on this team.  Damien Lewis started all 16 games for Seattle and graded out really well in his first season.  We needed a center Cushenberry was still on the board,  Duvernay at WR was still there.  Lucas Niang,  who will be starting in KC at OT was still there.  Harrison Bryant was available also.

The Jets needed 2 WR's in that draft and OL.  What did the Jets get.  Davis who has never seen a training camp,  Zuniga,  James Morgan and a dime a dozen running back in Perine.

Joe Douglas's 2020 3rd and 4th round in 2020 was an absolute waste.  Lets hope this was all on Gase.

[JetsFanatic]

2 hours ago, kmnj said:

many of the folks that refuse to admit Joe's first draft was poor say you cant evaluate a pick just after one year -if that is an accurate statement then why has Joe already cut some of these player?

I mean surely a GM would know that it takes a few years before you can evaluate players so why didnt Joe wait on the guys he cut?-

the reality ,which some refuse to accept even though Joe already has ,  the players were not good and all of the time in the world would not help. 

p.s I hope Joe's second draft turns out to be historically good but his first one was not ..

 

His draft wasn't poor, it's too early to give a  grade:

Round 1 a hit

Round 2 Mims is taleneted and shows it when he plays, I'm optimistic this will be a hit

Round 3 (A)Ashtyn Davis was playing better until he got hurt. Too early to grade

               (B)Zuniga appears to likely be a miss, though it's only his 2nd season

Round 4 (A)Lamical Perine too early to grade

              (B) James Morgan a miss 

              (C) Cameron Clark too early to grade

Round 5 Bryce Hall, shows promise, too early to grade

Round 6 Braden Mann a hit

 

 

 

 

 

[Integrity28]

2 hours ago, The Crusher said:

Seems to be a factor and nice job bringing it up, 

This + I’m okay with the totality of how JD fills the roster. Draft stinks? Okay, what else did he do to get better and how long did he force bad picks in the coaches? 

It’s a dance.

[chirorob]

2 hours ago, Bronxville Jets Fan said:

What about Bryce Hall?

If he becomes a quality starter, and Mims shows something, all of a sudden this is a good draft.

 

[sirlancemehlot]

3 hours ago, kmnj said:

many of the folks that refuse to admit Joe's first draft was poor say you cant evaluate a pick just after one year -if that is an accurate statement then why has Joe already cut some of these player?

I mean surely a GM would know that it takes a few years before you can evaluate players so why didnt Joe wait on the guys he cut?-

the reality ,which some refuse to accept even though Joe already has ,  the players were not good and all of the time in the world would not help. 

p.s I hope Joe's second draft turns out to be historically good but his first one was not ..

 

Joe's first draft what an absolute cluster****.  His second, much better.

[FidelioJet]

47 minutes ago, JetsFanatic said:

His draft wasn't poor, it's too early to give a  grade:

Round 1 a hit

Round 2 Mims is taleneted and shows it when he plays, I'm optimistic this will be a hit

Round 3 (A)Ashtyn Davis was playing better until he got hurt. Too early to grade

               (B)Zuniga appears to likely be a miss, though it's only his 2nd season

Round 4 (A)Lamical Perine too early to grade

              (B) James Morgan a miss 

              (C) Cameron Clark too early to grade

Round 5 Bryce Hall, shows promise, too early to grade

Round 6 Braden Mann a hit

Good post.

What's interesting is, outside of injuries, the "too early to grade" guys are expected to get plenty of playing time so we'll have a pretty good sense of who they are soon.

[sirlancemehlot]

2 hours ago, Dunnie said:

If only someone would make a thread evauating Joe D's performance.

I know this was a joke, but there's actually merit to it.  Joe D's first draft was a dumpster fire.  I don't care how many ways people try to justify it.  Wasted picks on crappy players outside of Becton, who at this point looks inferior to Wirfs.  That doesn't make him a bad GM.  He gets three or four drafts to figure it out, in all fairness.  The evaluation comes from the rest of what being a GM entails.  Contracts, trades, acquiring draft capitol, managing the cap, placing value on players (his and other teams') and not getting fleeced.  Outside of screwing up Robby Anderson's deal, he's been above average and has given the team a philosophy and direction.  In the short term, yes, he sh*t the bed in the draft 2020.  But it takes more than 1 good draft to build a team.  He may have been too married to unique, moneyball "point system" to see the actual players in front him last year.  Perhaps it was a learning experiences.  Either way, I like Douglass for the Jets going forward.  He just needs to adjust his draft strategy.  Because 2020 was Idzik bad.

[kevinc855]

If mimms doesn’t ever materialize it was an awful Draft.

You are just being stubborn at this point if you can’t concede that 

[nycdan]

Just an anecdotal article from nfl.com.

Spoiler: They ranked Jets draft #14 out of 32 teams after the season.

https://www.nfl.com/news/2020-nfl-rookie-report-card-ranking-each-team-s-class-1-to-32

Not saying it's the gospel, but when you look at HOU and TEN drafts, that is the definition of awful.  MIA limped in at #25.  NYG at #23.  

So was it a great draft?  Not at this point.  Was it worst in the league, not by any possible objective measure.  But everyone trying to sell that narrative, you do you.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

2 hours ago, JetsFanatic said:

(B)Zuniga appears to likely be a miss, though it's only his 2nd season

Zuniga was a free agent. Once he was cut, he could have been picked up by any team, and nobody wanted him. The moment you cut a third rounder, the pick is automatically a failure.

Let's hope that JD found a diamond in the rough with this underachieving kid he found on the scrap heap. 

[Dunnie]

....
Because 2020 was Idzik bad.

Im not saying your wrong .... but could part of the problem be that the coaching staff was so horrid the kids were never developed properly ????

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[Jet Nut]

5 hours ago, kmnj said:

so joe drafted guys that didnt fit into his coaches system? why would he do that-that is worse then saying they needed time to develop

Maybe because Saleh wasnt the coach for that draft?

 

[FidelioJet]

1 hour ago, kevinc855 said:

If mimms doesn’t ever materialize it was an awful Draft.

You are just being stubborn at this point if you can’t concede that 

So, if...

• Becton becomes a all-pro LT (the talent seems to be there)
• Hall becomes a legit #1 CB (will be #1 on the Jets this year)
• Huff becomes a legit starting DE (will be starting this year)
• Mann - becomes a pro-bowl punter (was last year)

Then this draft is awful?

btw...none of those things are stretches at all.  Not saying that will happen long term but there's still a ton of potential in this draft.  The over reactions around here are insane.

[Jet Nut]

2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

So, if...

• Becton becomes a all-pro LT (the talent seems to be there)
• Hall becomes a legit #1 CB (will be #1 on the Jets this year)
• Huff becomes a legit starting DE (will be starting this year)
• Mann - becomes a pro-bowl punter (was last year)

And if Davis comes off of the IR and starts?

When exactly did Idzik have this kind of draft?

[Origen]

Would it make it easier if you visualize Huff and Guidry being Drafted in the Zuniga and Morgan spots?  Same results, just less money spent on them.  People so damn bent out of shape about those 2 draft 'misses', put the undrafted 'hits' in those spaces in your minds and move on.  Geez.  

p.s.  Everything last year is on a weird curve because of covid and no preseason for those rookies.  I give them all this year as a ReRookie to prove their pick.  Not gonna waste my time freaking out about this idiotic b.s.

[kevinc855]

8 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

So, if...

• Becton becomes a all-pro LT (the talent seems to be there)
• Hall becomes a legit #1 CB (will be #1 on the Jets this year)
• Huff becomes a legit starting DE (will be starting this year)
• Mann - becomes a pro-bowl punter (was last year)

Then this draft is awful?

btw...none of those things are stretches at all.  Not saying that will happen long term but there's still a ton of potential in this draft.  The over reactions around here are insane.

Huff wasn’t drafted

Hall is 1 on the Jets because we have the worst secondary in the NFL

Becton will only become an all pro if he can stay on the field

and finally look at Mann’s stats. He was an average to below average punter. You aren’t making assessment on fan pro bowl voting are you? ?‍♂️

[chirorob]

6 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

So, if...

• Becton becomes a all-pro LT (the talent seems to be there)
• Hall becomes a legit #1 CB (will be #1 on the Jets this year)
• Huff becomes a legit starting DE (will be starting this year)
• Mann - becomes a pro-bowl punter (was last year)

Then this draft is awful?

btw...none of those things are stretches at all.  Not saying that will happen long term but there's still a ton of potential in this draft.  The over reactions around here are insane.

If huff or hall become legit starters, Mann continues the improvement he has shown in preseason that's not a bad draft.

If Mims gets healthy and produces anything, it becomes pretty good.   3 starters among LT, corner, DE and WR plus a punter is a quality draft.

[Jet Nut]

8 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

Huff wasn’t drafted

Hall is 1 on the Jets because we have the worst secondary in the NFL

Becton will only become an all pro if he can stay on the field

and finally look at Mann’s stats. He was an average to below average punter. You aren’t making assessment on fan pro bowl voting are you? ?‍♂️

And when did Idzik have this kind of draft?

His point is valid.  Your isnt 

 

[FidelioJet]

7 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

Huff wasn’t drafted

Hall is 1 on the Jets because we have the worst secondary in the NFL

Becton will only become an all pro if he can stay on the field

and finally look at Mann’s stats. He was an average to below average punter. You aren’t making assessment on fan pro bowl voting are you? ?‍♂️

You are completely missing the point.  
this post was about someone stating that if Mims isn’t good this draft is awful.  
I was just pointing out that if what we have already holds true - then this is a good draft. 
It’s like our fans are making judgements based on Cimini Tweets. 
 

Let’s see how our four 2nd year starters and two or three 2nd year contributors do before calling this draft a bust. 

[Jet Nut]

2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

You are completely missing the point.  
this post was about someone stating that if Mims isn’t good this draft is awful.  
I was just pointing out that if what we have already holds true - then this is a good draft. 
It’s like our fans are making judgements based on Cimini Tweets. 
 

Let’s see how our four 2nd year starters and two or three 2nd year contributors do before calling this draft a bust. 

The Jets signed two FA WRs.  One to be their #1.  They drafted a highly regarded collegiate WR with their 2nd round pick.  Higher than Mims.  They have a starting slot receiver

Why is anyone shocked or takes as a slight that Mims in 2nd string? 

[FidelioJet]

20 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

The Jets signed two FA WRs.  One to be their #1.  They drafted a highly regarded collegiate WR with their 2nd round pick.  Higher than Mims.  They have a starting slot receiver

Why is anyone shocked or takes as a slight that Mims in 2nd string? 

Agreed.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mims ends up with being 2nd or 3rd in totals yards on the Jets...Davis, Moore and Mims is likely the way this is going to play out.  Mims will end up getting more snaps than Cole.

[Jet Nut]

46 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

and finally look at Mann’s stats. He was an average to below average punter. You aren’t making assessment on fan pro bowl voting are you?

Hes a rookie.  He was fine.  

Interesting how insignificant Pro Bowls are when its someone you want to dump on.  And how wrong it is to continually claim that the pro bowl is based on fan voting only.  Its fans, players and coaches doing the voting, I/3rd each

[vic]

If you get four starters from a draft it can’t be categorized as a bad draft.


Sent from my iPad using JetNation.com mobile app

[#27TheDominator]

3 minutes ago, vic said:

If you get four starters from a draft it can’t be categorized as a bad draft.


Sent from my iPad using JetNation.com mobile app

Who are the four starters?  How long do they have to start for?  Idzik's 2013 draft had 6 starters and it kind of sucked.  One is a punter.  The CB remains to be seen.  The WR and S look like they will contribute but don't look to be starters.  I don't even think the LT can be 100% counted as a win yet.  

[Jimmy 2 Times]

I think some people's definition of a good draft is unrealistic.   

A draft should be judged on if it produced seven long term pieces (4+ seasons) for your football team.  Yes, you prefer those pieces to be high end stars, but the pre-draft evaluation between the eventual super stars and the average players are so small that there's a ton of luck involved.  Most of the time it's what's inside the individual player that makes the difference or just a matter of being lucky on the injury front.  

When a GM trades down he gives himself more chances at finding those pieces, but he runs the risk of choosing from a smaller pool of players and less of the typical blue chip prospect.  Imo, a B draft is finding at minimum, 6 contributing players (at least 4 starters).   That grade raises to B+ through A+ if those starters are above average or even pro bowl-all pro levels.  Of course there's alway exceptions to getting a higher grade if you draft a hall of fame player and miss quite a few other picks.  It's pretty subjective.  

You cannot give a final grade on a draft until four years from it.  Yes, there are early signs on how good/bad it appears.  

 

JD traded down, thus allowing himself to take chances with the extra picks.  Some of them are already gone, but he's still in the mix for a very good grade with who's left.  

It's very early still and all of these guys could bust or bust out still, but he's my current evaluation:

 

1. Becton-  Contributor.  Starting LT, sky high potential.  

2. Mims-  Contributor.  Early injury bug, but when he plays he looks good.

3. Davis-  Contributor.  Rookie starter, but injured late last year, I'm very high on the kid still.

3. Zuniga-  Unknown.  He's still on the roster so we can't write him off yet.  

4. Perine-  Contributor.  RB depth

4. Morgan-  Non contributor. 

4. Clark- Unknown

5. Hall- Contributor.  rookie starter 

6. Mann- Contributor.  rookie starter 

 

This is a B draft simply if Becton stays on his current path, Mims and Davis get over the injury bug, and Perine keeps making the roster.

The potential to turn into a A+ is there still.  

We just need these guys to keep making the roster, stay healthy, and one of Becton/Mims/Davis reach their potential.  

 

[Jetsfan80]

10 hours ago, kmnj said:

so joe drafted guys that didnt fit into his coaches system? why would he do that-that is worse then saying they needed time to develop

lmao.  The 2020 draft happened nearly a year before Saleh and his staff were hired.  Their systems on both sides of the ball are completely different from Gase’s.  You are aware of this, no? 

[Jetsfan80]

9 hours ago, Beerfish said:

'Drafting for scheme' is very overrated as an excuse why guys suck.

So going from a M2M defend more dependent on corners than pass rushers to a Cover 3 system dependent on pass rushers over cover CBs is an “overrated” excuse to you?  Ok then.  

If our systems on both sides of the ball weren’t completely different from the ones from a year prior, I might be able to agree with you here.  But they are so I don’t.

Yes, you still need to draft useful players for any system where possible, and that’s why Becton and Hall are still here, and why expectations are Mims and Davis can still contribute regardless of how much they’ve been written off. But for a lot of players, particularly later picks, system fit is crucial.  

[BROOKLYN JET]

Gase's fault.

[DepressedJetsFan23]

10 hours ago, shuler82 said:

Because there were better options on the roster? Because you can only hold onto 53 guys?

You can't judge a player after a single season - especially after one with no camp and preseason games. But this offseason brought in a new coaching staff with different schemes.  

That's not to say there aren't already warning signs - Morgan looked horrible in camp, Zuniga is a ghost, Clark can't stay on the field.   But as of today, we have a starting LT, starting CB, two developing players in Mims and Davis (yeah, another walking injury, but interested to see him in this system) and a punter.  It's an IF, but IF Mims and Davis pan out, it's suddenly looking like a really solid draft, regardless of what happens with Clark or Zuniga, or that we 'wasted' a 4th round pick on a QB who fell on his face.

 

Great post, not all of these players have to be 10 years starters but if JD can consistently get quality players Jets will be in good shape 

[phill1c]

IMO the first draft is like the first pancake...

[carlito1171]

11 hours ago, kmnj said:

so joe drafted guys that didnt fit into his coaches system? why would he do that-that is worse then saying they needed time to develop

Is the coach that Joe drafted those players for still on team? Or you just made up your mind that you want to run JD outta town already? 

[Sperm Edwards]

12 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

This is absurd.

• Huff wasn't drafted. 
• Mann is a punter. When you draft one the least you expect is that they're very good never mind starting. There's a reason most teams don't do that.
• Hall is a starter yes but that's more a reflection of the state of that unit - comfortably the worst in football. He's no further along that Blessuan Austin was the same stage. Proven nothing.
• Becton is the only starter of any quality and even there he couldn't really miss with Tristan Wirfs the alternative. Becton actually has to improve to justify passing on Wirfs. 

As for the others:

• Perine shouldn't have made the roster. Adams outplayed him at every turn. Worst pick of the bunch. Nothing player. 
• Mims was losing reps to guys who are no longer on the roster and he can't stay healthy. He's well behind where anyone would have hoped at this stage. 
• Davis has been a total crock - In fact just about everyone except Hall and the punter haven't been able to stay healthy. 

By any measure that draft has been catastrophe to this point. Mims and Davis are the best chance to turn it around but for now they can't even get themselves on the field. It's not a write off yet but the early signs are so horrible. Taking genuine trash like Perine with Gabriel Davis on the board, missing wildly on Morgan and Zuniga instead of double dipping at WR in a deep class. Horrible moves at the time that are even worse with hindsight. You need to get depth in those rounds and we got guys who will be out of the league in 3 years. 

I wish I could disagree with more of this. 

Calling a punter a “starter” is grading on a curve to say the least, seeing how teams don’t carry backup punters to differentiate from starting ones. Special teams players aren’t starters. He’s no more a starter than a regular “starting” gunner on the kick coverage unit.

So far it’s just Becton and Hall as starters, and your take on both is accurate.

• I can’t gripe over the Hall pick (or any pick this low). He was supposedly a borderline day 1 pick but for injuries, so it was as good a gamble as most of the scrub talents that go in that round. Considering the early extended injury and coaching, he looked pretty good for a rookie. But yeah it’s true he might only be starting because the Jets were and are so thin at corner.
• I’ve said exactly the same about the Becton pick many times. It’s not a knock on Becton; rather it’s just hard to give too much credit to Douglas for the selection: he saw to it the team only had 1 starting tackle entering the draft; so pigeonholed into a tackle, there were 4 eligible picks when the draft started, and by our pick 2 of them had been taken, with only Becton and Wirfs to choose from.

I’d like it if Mims turned it around fast, and it’s hardly far-fetched that can happen; but it’s also hard to classify his soph summer as anything but a disappointment.

Davis, it seems, was just fast and little more than that plus he was a high enough safety pick to justify shopping and ultimately in trading Adams. Looked through that lens alone the pick had that tangible use; if Douglas drafts another wideout or lineman here maybe that trade doesn’t happen. But in terms of drafting a productive football player, the pick is looking pretty bad. Like with Mims, hopefully he turns it around, but I’m more optimistic on Mims doing so than Davis thus far.