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Heres Why Guidry at Outside CB Might Make Sense Week 1...


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Another thing to note, could this be why we're not announcing who will be our #2 CB opposite Hall yet? I'm sure Joe Brady and the Panthers would try and add some extra things into their gameplan to take advantage of that height difference if he knew we are indeed putting Guidry out there. Either way you can't hide Guidry's height in this game. So if you're going to play him you might as well get Carter out there too imo

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53 minutes ago, Litez said:

As Saleh said, he believes both Guidry and Carter II are starters in this league. I think based off what we've seen and heard from Camp and preseason, Hall and those 2 are our best 3 Defensive Backs we have right now. That would be the case even if we still had Bless imo. I think Echols and Dunn do have some good potential. But Guidry and Hall both have at least some NFL experience from last year and Michael Carter honestly looks really good in the slot. As much as I like Hall, I think Michael Carter might already be our best CB on the team.

Now with Guidry.. he's one of the fastest players in the entire NFL and that's great to have on the field with the Panthers having speed everywhere. Unfortunately he is very small at 5'9. Makes sense why he's a Nickel going against typically smaller, quicker, shifty slots. And you don't really want him against those big bodied Outside WRs that have a high catch radius. So why would we want him on Robby or Moore? Because to me, with Terrace Marshall (Panthers rookie #3 WR) being 6'3, he's going to get picked on even easier in the middle of the field on high throws where Sam is more comfortable throwing to the slot than the deep sideline. Also when Robby was in the slot last year, Joe Brady liked to run fades (from the slot to the sideline) to expose that 1on1 matchup and I fully believe he's going to have Marshall do that a lot this year.

I think our best bet is Guidry on Moore, Hall on Robby with Safety help, and MCII in the slot. Carter's not much bigger than Guidry, but at least we get our 3 best out there and when we do go man coverage on 3rd down we have the ability to occasionally win those reps if Sam doesnt have much time. Our cornerbacks play 1 side of the field so Guidry would be on Robby a lot also.. but atleast he has the speed to stay with him and would force Sam to make accurate throws outside the numbers. Those are the throws I want to see him try to make with pressure coming up the middle.

Saleh did say he wanted to find a way to get Carter II and Guidry on the field at the same time. And with them having a tall slot receiver, its not like we can hide Javelin's height regardless of where he is. So why not get our best 3 out there? This is assuming Guidry can make the adjustment to outside instead of inside. I wouldn't bring it up if Saleh didn't mention his name as 1 of the guy's fighting for the spot. 

What do you guys think?

Solid argument. You make a good case.

I like Echols a lot too. Will be interesting to see.

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Its an interesting thought - and given Carolinas outside WRs are not big (Moore - only 6'0 - Robby tall but thin) - it may be a good matchup to try it. However, I'm pretty wary of starting a guy who was an UDFA in a position he has no experience in for the first game of his second season. If they want to try it - great - but they better be ready to adjust quick if its not working. 

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1 hour ago, Litez said:

As Saleh said, he believes both Guidry and Carter II are starters in this league. I think based off what we've seen and heard from Camp and preseason, Hall and those 2 are our best 3 Defensive Backs we have right now. That would be the case even if we still had Bless imo. I think Echols and Dunn do have some good potential. But Guidry and Hall both have at least some NFL experience from last year and Michael Carter honestly looks really good in the slot. As much as I like Hall, I think Michael Carter might already be our best CB on the team.

Now with Guidry.. he's one of the fastest players in the entire NFL and that's great to have on the field with the Panthers having speed everywhere. Unfortunately he is very small at 5'9. Makes sense why he's a Nickel going against typically smaller, quicker, shifty slots. And you don't really want him against those big bodied Outside WRs that have a high catch radius. So why would we want him on Robby or Moore? Because to me, with Terrace Marshall (Panthers rookie #3 WR) being 6'3, he's going to get picked on even easier in the middle of the field on high throws where Sam is more comfortable throwing to the slot than the deep sideline. Also when Robby was in the slot last year, Joe Brady liked to run fades (from the slot to the sideline) to expose that 1on1 matchup and I fully believe he's going to have Marshall do that a lot this year.

I think our best bet is Guidry on Moore, Hall on Robby with Safety help, and MCII in the slot. Carter's not much bigger than Guidry, but at least we get our 3 best out there and when we do go man coverage on 3rd down we have the ability to occasionally win those reps if Sam doesnt have much time. Our cornerbacks play 1 side of the field so Guidry would be on Robby a lot also.. but atleast he has the speed to stay with him and would force Sam to make accurate throws outside the numbers. Those are the throws I want to see him try to make with pressure coming up the middle.

Saleh did say he wanted to find a way to get Carter II and Guidry on the field at the same time. And with them having a tall slot receiver, its not like we can hide Javelin's height regardless of where he is. So why not get our best 3 out there? This is assuming Guidry can make the adjustment to outside instead of inside. I wouldn't bring it up if Saleh didn't mention his name as 1 of the guy's fighting for the spot. 

What do you guys think?

Great post.   Logical with a thought towards this week's personnel.   Bully.

I too think Guidry is the most likely starter based on pre-season minutes - or lack therof.  All we heard from the coaches was praise along with early indications that Guidry was having an excellent camp. 

Fellas let's not forget that Guidry STARTED the last two games of the season on the outside and it was not due to injury.  It was due to excellent play.  It is evidence that the Jets think he is more than just a nickel back.  I noted last season that Guidry is a good tackler.  A sine qua non for coach Saleh.

As for MC2, I think he rotated equally with Echols and Dunn in pre-season snaps.  I have not been able to discern a difference in playing time between them but they were clearly running ahead of Pinnock.      

One of the things I expect the Jets to do if they decide to start Guidry on the boundary is move him on third down.  When the Jets go to the nickel, they should move Guidry and put the third corner - whether it is MC2, Echols, Dunn or Pinnock - on the outside.  Nickel is a complicated position to play due to the lack of sideline.  Boundary is more difficult because the bigger better players can be found there, not because of the complexities of the scheme.  That is not true at nickel.  Not only is poor tackling deadly inside, but the player must guard both sides.  If we are playing matchup zone - and we will - then the possibilities become complex at nickel.  You need the experienced player.  That player is Guidry. 

That is what I think. 

Coach Saleh has truly kept the information from leaking out.  Good for him.  Good for the Jets too.

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Make Darnold run for his life and all our CBs will look decent.  If he is give time they will all look bad.

Our LBs and safeties better tackle well this game, I see a lot of short stuff and dump offs to mccaffery.

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Saleh seems to be a “talk it into existence, power of positive thinking “ guy

i wouldn’t go by what he says until we’ve seen at least 4 games. 
 

 

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32 minutes ago, Larz said:

Saleh seems to be a “talk it into existence, power of positive thinking “ guy

i wouldn’t go by what he says until we’ve seen at least 4 games. 
 

 

I will give him the entire year to learn how to adapt our personnel to his schemes.  There are so many young players.  Coach Lombardi would have trouble with this many rookies.  And Saleh is coming to implement the latest thing in NFL defensive coaching.  It is not like Rex and "simulated pressure" which was always a bit of a gimmick (yes, I saw it work too).  This pass defense is the NFL trend and has spread from Seattle where it began.  I feel we are on the right track here.  But this season awaits. 

I do not know about you @Larz, but I am fearful we are going to have problems stopping the run.  So much depends on the secondary to come up and fill gaps. 

There are going to be full fledged growing pains.  And more than a few WTF running plays.  I just hope it is not the opening play of the season like last year.  Please, no cold water until the second quarter at least.  

We are undefeated and in first place.  Zack is MVP.  Just look at his PACE!

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1 hour ago, clayton163v said:

I will give him the entire year to learn how to adapt our personnel to his schemes.  There are so many young players.  Coach Lombardi would have trouble with this many rookies.  And Saleh is coming to implement the latest thing in NFL defensive coaching.  It is not like Rex and "simulated pressure" which was always a bit of a gimmick (yes, I saw it work too).  This pass defense is the NFL trend and has spread from Seattle where it began.  I feel we are on the right track here.  But this season awaits. 

I do not know about you @Larz, but I am fearful we are going to have problems stopping the run.  So much depends on the secondary to come up and fill gaps. 

There are going to be full fledged growing pains.  And more than a few WTF running plays.  I just hope it is not the opening play of the season like last year.  Please, no cold water until the second quarter at least.  

We are undefeated and in first place.  Zack is MVP.  Just look at his PACE!

I’ve been trying not to crap in every thread,lol but I think this defense is in trouble without Lawson and Davis.  You can hide one or two weak links, but not 4+. 

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3 hours ago, Litez said:

Another thing to note, could this be why we're not announcing who will be our #2 CB opposite Hall yet? I'm sure Joe Brady and the Panthers would try and add some extra things into their gameplan to take advantage of that height difference if he knew we are indeed putting Guidry out there. Either way you can't hide Guidry's height in this game. So if you're going to play him you might as well get Carter out there too imo

There have been numerous CB's in the NFL throughout its history that were 5-9 and were pro bowlers and all-pros if you have to be 2 inches taller to make a difference in whether you start or you don't then you're simply not a good corner. Guidry is quick and fast and I'm sure he has the leg strength to jump pretty damn high. I think we have a good group of young corners and the coaching staff seems to think so as well. 

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14 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

This is a Cover 3 scheme, not M2M.  I don’t know why so many continue to talk about which CB will cover who on Sunday.  That’s not how any of this is going to work here.  

Exactly what I was going to say. If the argument is get Guidry on the field because he’s good and fast, great! Let the best players play. But these guys are going to be primarily running their zone. We’re gonna see a lot of Echols and Dunn because the teams running this defense like big, rangy corners who can tackle. The DBs are gonna have an area of the field to cover for the most part, not a man. They’re gonna have five DBs on the field a lot every week, and we’ll see different mixes. I think they’ll be looking to go large quite a bit as part of trying to stop the run. Best thing the Jets could possibly do in this game is force the Panthers to pass. 

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5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

This is a Cover 3 scheme, not M2M.  I don’t know why so many continue to talk about which CB will cover who on Sunday.  That’s not how any of this is going to work here.  

You think we're going to be in a cover 3 drop zone every down? No. We will definitely play man especially on 3rd downs. Not every 3rd down but we will be in man more than you're thinking. Whether that be straight man from the jump, cover 3 match, quarters, cover 6,etc. It still winds up being some sort of defense that converts to man in many cases. Most of our blitzes will be a defense that winds up being man. Difference is we wont ever send the Greg Williams 6 and 7 zero blitzes. It will be scheming up 4 man blitzes or 5 man blitzes. But those D's are usually man or match so guys will be manned up but there will also be help in the middle and/or deep. Still need to win vs the guy you're guarding though

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4 minutes ago, Litez said:

You think we're going to be in a cover 3 drop zone every down? No. We will definitely play man especially on 3rd downs. Not every 3rd down but we will be in man more than you're thinking. Whether that be straight man from the jump, cover 3 match, quarters, cover 6,etc. It still winds up being some sort of defense that converts to man in many cases. Most of our blitzes will be a defense that winds up being man. Difference is we wont ever send the Greg Williams 6 and 7 zero blitzes. It will be scheming up 4 man blitzes or 5 man blitzes. But those D's are usually man or match so guys will be manned up but there will also be help in the middle and/or deep. Still need to win vs the guy you're guarding though


Right but this idea that even when we’re in man any CB we have is going to be tasked with covering the same guy on Carolina consistently makes no sense.  

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12 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

This is a Cover 3 scheme, not M2M.  I don’t know why so many continue to talk about which CB will cover who on Sunday.  That’s not how any of this is going to work here.  

Definitely true.   The scheme is a team defense concept.  Nevertheless, the opening post had two facets.  One was to guess which Jet corners would start outside and inside.  Beyond Hall, it is a mystery.  The other was to suggest that - of the chosen starters - which ones would do well guarding who.  I agree we will not be in man-to-man much at all.  But I think he is right about Guidry being the starter over the others.   

12 hours ago, slats said:

Exactly what I was going to say. If the argument is get Guidry on the field because he’s good and fast, great! Let the best players play. But these guys are going to be primarily running their zone. We’re gonna see a lot of Echols and Dunn because the teams running this defense like big, rangy corners who can tackle. The DBs are gonna have an area of the field to cover for the most part, not a man. They’re gonna have five DBs on the field a lot every week, and we’ll see different mixes. I think they’ll be looking to go large quite a bit as part of trying to stop the run. Best thing the Jets could possibly do in this game is force the Panthers to pass. 

All true.  We will play the matchup zone ala Seattle. 

However, certain types of players present problems for zone defenses and you have to mix in some man-to-man.  Guys like Tyrek Hill drive zones nuts..  Many of the big wideouts must have a large corner on them or they will call for the ball and post them up.  And so on.  While Echols and Dunn have lots of zone experience in college, MC2 and Pinnock played a lot of man-to-man.   I believe they were brought in to add that dimension to the Jets backfield.    We are going to need some of it.  I agree that we will "see different mixes" depending on opposing personnel.  Much as the opening post suggested.     

It is my hope that going large is going to work against the run on the early downs.  But we had a hard time setting the edge during preseason.  That opens up the running game inside and out.    

12 hours ago, Litez said:

You think we're going to be in a cover 3 drop zone every down? No. We will definitely play man especially on 3rd downs. Not every 3rd down but we will be in man more than you're thinking. Whether that be straight man from the jump, cover 3 match, quarters, cover 6,etc. It still winds up being some sort of defense that converts to man in many cases. Most of our blitzes will be a defense that winds up being man. Difference is we wont ever send the Greg Williams 6 and 7 zero blitzes. It will be scheming up 4 man blitzes or 5 man blitzes. But those D's are usually man or match so guys will be manned up but there will also be help in the middle and/or deep. Still need to win vs the guy you're guarding though

We will use some man-to-man but the Seattle defense we will run is primarily a matchup zone.  It is a philosophy of this defense to seldom blitz and instead drop everybody into coverage aside from the four down lineman.   The flip is that the four lineman must get to the QB or  . . . 

We will employ all kinds of zones, not just cover 3.  But our defenders will end up in man to man after an opposing player has entered their deep zone..  So I see what you are saying.  There is also the truth that you must NOT create a mismatch by ignoring personnel strengths and weaknesses.  Certain wideouts have to have a strong guy on them.   Other guys are so shifty that man-to-man is unwise.   Wayne Cherbet was notoriously difficult to cover man-to-man.  It depends upon who you are trying to cover, where you are on the field and what you are trying to take away.

Like the other posters, I doubt that we will switch to a pure man scheme.  But we will mix it in as needed.    

I think you are right about Guidry.  And about some of the advantages that our starters enjoy as compared to theirs.  Nice opening post. 

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On 9/10/2021 at 3:04 PM, Litez said:

As Saleh said, he believes both Guidry and Carter II are starters in this league. I think based off what we've seen and heard from Camp and preseason, Hall and those 2 are our best 3 Defensive Backs we have right now. That would be the case even if we still had Bless imo. I think Echols and Dunn do have some good potential. But Guidry and Hall both have at least some NFL experience from last year and Michael Carter honestly looks really good in the slot. As much as I like Hall, I think Michael Carter might already be our best CB on the team.

Now with Guidry.. he's one of the fastest players in the entire NFL and that's great to have on the field with the Panthers having speed everywhere. Unfortunately he is very small at 5'9. Makes sense why he's a Nickel going against typically smaller, quicker, shifty slots. And you don't really want him against those big bodied Outside WRs that have a high catch radius. So why would we want him on Robby or Moore? Because to me, with Terrace Marshall (Panthers rookie #3 WR) being 6'3, he's going to get picked on even easier in the middle of the field on high throws where Sam is more comfortable throwing to the slot than the deep sideline. Also when Robby was in the slot last year, Joe Brady liked to run fades (from the slot to the sideline) to expose that 1on1 matchup and I fully believe he's going to have Marshall do that a lot this year.

I think our best bet is Guidry on Moore, Hall on Robby with Safety help, and MCII in the slot. Carter's not much bigger than Guidry, but at least we get our 3 best out there and when we do go man coverage on 3rd down we have the ability to occasionally win those reps if Sam doesnt have much time. Our cornerbacks play 1 side of the field so Guidry would be on Robby a lot also.. but atleast he has the speed to stay with him and would force Sam to make accurate throws outside the numbers. Those are the throws I want to see him try to make with pressure coming up the middle.

Saleh did say he wanted to find a way to get Carter II and Guidry on the field at the same time. And with them having a tall slot receiver, its not like we can hide Javelin's height regardless of where he is. So why not get our best 3 out there? This is assuming Guidry can make the adjustment to outside instead of inside. I wouldn't bring it up if Saleh didn't mention his name as 1 of the guy's fighting for the spot. 

What do you guys think?

Saleh said they were both starting nickel backs.

Starting Guidry on the outside after not taking a look at him for one single rep for the entirety of the offseason would set off alarm bells.  Either the guys they have behind him are hopeless piles of trash or the coaching staff did nothing to prepare him for a job they would eventually hand him on opening day.

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On 9/10/2021 at 10:04 AM, Litez said:

As Saleh said, he believes both Guidry and Carter II are starters in this league. I think based off what we've seen and heard from Camp and preseason, Hall and those 2 are our best 3 Defensive Backs we have right now. That would be the case even if we still had Bless imo. I think Echols and Dunn do have some good potential. But Guidry and Hall both have at least some NFL experience from last year and Michael Carter honestly looks really good in the slot. As much as I like Hall, I think Michael Carter might already be our best CB on the team.

Now with Guidry.. he's one of the fastest players in the entire NFL and that's great to have on the field with the Panthers having speed everywhere. Unfortunately he is very small at 5'9. Makes sense why he's a Nickel going against typically smaller, quicker, shifty slots. And you don't really want him against those big bodied Outside WRs that have a high catch radius. So why would we want him on Robby or Moore? Because to me, with Terrace Marshall (Panthers rookie #3 WR) being 6'3, he's going to get picked on even easier in the middle of the field on high throws where Sam is more comfortable throwing to the slot than the deep sideline. Also when Robby was in the slot last year, Joe Brady liked to run fades (from the slot to the sideline) to expose that 1on1 matchup and I fully believe he's going to have Marshall do that a lot this year.

I think our best bet is Guidry on Moore, Hall on Robby with Safety help, and MCII in the slot. Carter's not much bigger than Guidry, but at least we get our 3 best out there and when we do go man coverage on 3rd down we have the ability to occasionally win those reps if Sam doesnt have much time. Our cornerbacks play 1 side of the field so Guidry would be on Robby a lot also.. but atleast he has the speed to stay with him and would force Sam to make accurate throws outside the numbers. Those are the throws I want to see him try to make with pressure coming up the middle.

Saleh did say he wanted to find a way to get Carter II and Guidry on the field at the same time. And with them having a tall slot receiver, its not like we can hide Javelin's height regardless of where he is. So why not get our best 3 out there? This is assuming Guidry can make the adjustment to outside instead of inside. I wouldn't bring it up if Saleh didn't mention his name as 1 of the guy's fighting for the spot. 

What do you guys think?

I think I really can't wait for the point, a few games into the season, when people finally understand we no longer play man coverage most of the time

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1 hour ago, Doggin94it said:

I think I really can't wait for the point, a few games into the season, when people finally understand we no longer play man coverage most of the time

I understand that we're not in man most of the time especially on 1st and 2nd downs. A lot of Quarters and Cover 3 with some Cover 2 and Cover 6 to help confuse. Cover 3 seems like the Defense Saleh likes to go to when he is trying to defend the run. Based off what we did in the preseason and what Saleh did with the Niners, on 3rd downs we will go to man a lot though. Not every 3rd down but those big 3rd and shorts 3rd and mediums where you need to get off the field and cant give up anything quick and short. Cover 3 where everyone is dropping into zones is good bend but dont break vs the pass and solid vs the run. Which is why we'll use it on early downs. But to prevent a team from getting 5 or less yards when they know its Cover 3 I think its harder to do and get the stop than calling man and hoping the jam buys time for the D Line to eat or a schemed blitz to come in free. Its something we'll use but not as much as other teams.

Quarters was also our most used coverage in the preseason. At least thats what it seemed like to me. This is not a Seattle Cover 3 Defensive team where we are in single high looks all the time. We were in 2 high looks a lot or started in a single high and safety ran back before the snap. Which is really good and encouraging because we can show Cover 3 then right before the Qb hikes the ball we can be in honestly anything with 2 safeties rolling back there. Should give Darnold issues.

All I was saying with this thread is that we should get our best 3 corners out there. And for those concerned with Guidrys height and the mismatch that can be exploited out wide.. it would be almost as concerning when he's manned up or matched on Marshall in the slot. So its not something that is completely avoidable. At that point just get the best 3 out there. That could mean Echols I have no idea. I just like and want Michael Carter II on the field and if that means Guidry goes to Outside Cb then Im cool with it if Saleh is. 

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12 minutes ago, Litez said:

I understand that we're not in man most of the time especially on 1st and 2nd downs. A lot of Quarters and Cover 3 with some Cover 2 and Cover 6 to help confuse. Cover 3 seems like the Defense Saleh likes to go to when he is trying to defend the run. Based off what we did in the preseason and what Saleh did with the Niners, on 3rd downs we will go to man a lot though. Not every 3rd down but those big 3rd and shorts 3rd and mediums where you need to get off the field and cant give up anything quick and short. Cover 3 where everyone is dropping into zones is good bend but dont break vs the pass and solid vs the run. Which is why we'll use it on early downs. But to prevent a team from getting 5 or less yards when they know its Cover 3 I think its harder to do and get the stop than calling man and hoping the jam buys time for the D Line to eat or a schemed blitz to come in free. Its something we'll use but not as much as other teams.

Quarters was also our most used coverage in the preseason. At least thats what it seemed like to me. This is not a Seattle Cover 3 Defensive team where we are in single high looks all the time. We were in 2 high looks a lot or started in a single high and safety ran back before the snap. Which is really good and encouraging because we can show Cover 3 then right before the Qb hikes the ball we can be in honestly anything with 2 safeties rolling back there. Should give Darnold issues.

All I was saying with this thread is that we should get our best 3 corners out there. And for those concerned with Guidrys height and the mismatch that can be exploited out wide.. it would be almost as concerning when he's manned up or matched on Marshall in the slot. So its not something that is completely avoidable. At that point just get the best 3 out there. That could mean Echols I have no idea. I just like and want Michael Carter II on the field and if that means Guidry goes to Outside Cb then Im cool with it if Saleh is. 

Obviously I could be dead wrong. Im just going by what I seen in Preseason and what the Niners have done last 2 years

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