Jets Handling of Denzel Mims Reaches Point of Absurdity

[Chrebetfan80]

41 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

I read those comments and it reinforces what I was seeing in camp regarding Mims.   Seeing him line up in the wrong positions during walk through was damning.   Doing it multiple times in the same session and LaFleur yelling at him for that was even more damning.  
 

At this point he can either commit to the process or he’ll find himself on the street next season.  I would hope the staff at least gives him a chance to dig himself out of this hole and just doesn’t bury him on the bench, especially when Cole and Crowder return.  

I think theres a vested interest in making sure he does well, its just taking longer than they anticipated.  I think we'll see more of him as time goes on. 

[#27TheDominator]

For all this chatter and his missing so much time in camp this year, Mims is averaging more yards per game in 2021 than he did in 2020. 

[IndianaJet]

2 minutes ago, peekskill68 said:

Well, he threw him one pass on Sunday and that seemed to work, so, what's your point?

One pass, on a broken play, on a simple go route that he happened to be wide open on, yet still somehow looked lost.

 

What's your point?  

[Augustiniak]

Just now, IndianaJet said:

One pass, on a broken play, on a simple go route that he happened to be wide open on, yet still somehow looked lost.

 

What's your point?  

The broader point is that if wilson is going to be running for his life so much, guys who can improvise and make plays when the pocket breaks down (which seems like every pass play) are valuable.  The ability to run a precision route from the slot for mims becomes less important.  He’s big and can catch.  He averaged 15.5 ypc last year so the long gains are not a fluke.

[Paradis]

2 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

Ehhh i think im gonna diverge from you on this one.  I also ask my guys to know every position because rotationally its very hard to make subs when only certian guys know certain things.  Can he still get on the field?  yea sure, but its much easier to get on the field the more you know because you can sub in for anyone not just one specific spot. 

 

Say he was only subbing in for Davis.  With the length of the offensive drives we were having how many times do you think davis needed a blow? If mims could only go to that spot it limits his ability to play more snaps, unless you shift davis over to another spot for a substitution to get mims in, not a crazy notion, just gets complicated sometimes.

I get what youre saying, and theres value in it for sure, but also as a coach, one that specifically coaches WR's I can tell you that salehs comments have merrit. 

And this is coming from someone who wants mims to succeed.

Look, it's not a matter of whether there's partial truth to it. I'm not pushing back on the assessment - at least not in its entirety. I'm looking at WHAT the CS is doing about it. And it goes beyond Mims... feels like LaFleur & Co are making some pretty novice mistakes rn trying to force the scheme out of the gate.

[Chrebetfan80]

3 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Every play guys are subbing in and out, it’s hard to believe they can’t figure out how to keep mims in a position where he can function.  I imagine that the good offensive teams would get him on the field and use what he can do best.

Like i said its not impossible, it just gets tricky when calling plays having guys sub and not having everyone able to do every job. Call it what you want, having first hand experience with it I see the importance in an offense of having guys be interchangeable and know the offense inside and out.  

I think we'll end up seeing mims on the field more as the season goes on, Im sure the offense going three and out repeatedly had a lot to do with it as well. 

[Augustiniak]

Just now, Paradis said:

Look, it's not a matter of whether there's partial truth to it. I'm not pushing back on the assessment - at least not in its entirety. I'm looking at WHAT the CS is doing about it. And it goes beyond Mims... feels like LaFleur & Co are making some pretty novice mistakes rn trying to force the scheme out of the gate.

This.  And the 4th and 1 run epitomized this, everyone knew they were running it including the carolina d. The jets clearly didn’t have the OL to get that done.  The play should have been a play action fake to let wilson, their best player, do something . Instead they were damn stubborn and clung to this philosophical offensive mindset that the jets are nowhere near ready to execute.

[IndianaJet]

1 minute ago, Augustiniak said:

The broader point is that if wilson is going to be running for his life so much, guys who can improvise and make plays when the pocket breaks down (which seems like every pass play) are valuable.  The ability to run a precision route from the slot for mims becomes less important.  He’s big and can catch.  He averaged 15.5 ypc last year so the long gains are not a fluke.

He literally only ran straight down the field.  He didn't improvise anything and Wilson saw him just as he was getting into the soft part of the zone.  Wilson threw the ball short which forced Mims to stop his route.

Mims did nothing special on that play at all.

If he doesn't know the plays, he shouldn't be on the field.  If the proposal is well just let him run deep...fine. 

[Chrebetfan80]

2 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Look, it's not a matter of whether there's partial truth to it. I'm not pushing back on the assessment - at least not in its entirety. I'm looking at WHAT the CS is doing about it. And it goes beyond Mims... feels like LaFleur & Co are making some pretty novice mistakes rn trying to force the scheme out of the gate.

understandable point. I think being flexible is obviously paramount as a coach, but there is also some merritt in having a plan and sticking to it in an effort to have an identity.  

for instance. I am a big power/counter guy, the team we came to was a very big zone team. We wanted to push power/counter more and felt we had the dudes for it.  It looked very sloppy for the first few weeks, and there was a lot of push back to go back to zone (which we use still but we're talking a base philosophy here). 

Long story short, we're an excellent power counter team because we committed to something, drilled it, learned it, got better.  While I 100% agree with you that you cant FORCE things ala gase, I do think you have to give things a chance to either fail or succeed.  I'm not sure im at the point to say its beating our head against a wall. 

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, IndianaJet said:

He literally only ran straight down the field.  He didn't improvise anything and Wilson saw him just as he was getting into the soft part of the zone.  Wilson threw the ball short which forced Mims to stop his route.

Mims did nothing special on that play at all.

If he doesn't know the plays, he shouldn't be on the field.  If the proposal is well just let him run deep...fine. 

I don’t know the answer to this and I’m not sitting here disagreeing with what the coaches see.  But, on the other hand, he’s tall, fast and can catch.  Maybe his role isn’t running funky routes all the time.  Maybe his role is to find a space when wilson is running around.  He’s not like Stephen hill where he has hands of stone.  And it’s not like the other wrs were lighting it up either.  Davis and berrios were the offense.  

[Paradis]

1 minute ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

understandable point. I think being flexible is obviously paramount as a coach, but there is also some merritt in having a plan and sticking to it in an effort to have an identity.  

for instance. I am a big power/counter guy, the team we came to was a very big zone team. We wanted to push power/counter more and felt we had the dudes for it.  It looked very sloppy for the first few weeks, and there was a lot of push back to go back to zone (which we use still but we're talking a base philosophy here). 

Long story short, we're an excellent power counter team because we committed to something, drilled it, learned it, got better.  While I 100% agree with you that you cant FORCE things ala gase, I do think you have to give things a chance to either fail or succeed.  I'm not sure im at the point to say its beating our head against a wall. 

Don't disagree, but again. LaFleur and company are not reading the tea leaves. The avg age of our offense is what - 24 yrs old? Most have never played in scheme like his, and we're trying not to get our F QB murdered. 

Maybe he should take a moment to reflect on what exactly is going to build confidence and momentum on the O right now. 

[sec101row23]

8 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

I think theres a vested interest in making sure he does well, its just taking longer than they anticipated.  I think we'll see more of him as time goes on. 

I just wonder how much of a vested interest this staff has in developing Mims.  This staff inherited Mims, JD drafted him, so I wonder just how much “pressure” JD may be placing on them to make it work with Mims.  

[Paradis]

19 minutes ago, Warfish said:

What an empty "fan answer" that is, lol.  

Mims has shown himself either dumb or lazy or both.  Those are the reasons, in plain language, why a guy with physical talent superior to others is behind those others on the depth chart.  One catch doesn't make him a starter.  He's exactly where he's earned being, in the eyes of our new Coaches. 

And one week in, either you as a fan trust the Coaches to make this team theirs and make personnel calls, their way, or you don't.  And if you don't even trust them to make starter decisions, well, you simply don't trust them at all and must want them gone.  Hard to see a middle ground here, logically.

So far, Mims is mostly fan hype, little actual performance.  If I'm gonna defer, it's to Saleh right now (till he proves he is unworthy of it), not hype-filled fans.

lol yea, cause VP and EDs love it when their managers tell them, hey - this is Donnie in accounting's fault. I told him to figure it out. 

[Chrebetfan80]

Just now, Paradis said:

Don't disagree, but again. LaFleur and company are not reading the tea leaves. The avg age of our offense is what - 24 yrs old? Most have never played in scheme like his, and we're trying not to get our F QB murdered. 

Maybe he should take a moment to reflect on what exactly is going to build confidence and momentum on the O right now. 

I mean no one wants to do things and not be successful.  The real telling thing will be how they come out in week 2.  What did week 1's film teach this staff and these players about themselves that they can take and adapt to the next plan. 

Short yardage game was bad, ok maybe roll out, after 2 unsuccessful attempts to get a short yardage conversion, it was play action to get wilson outside. I think alot of this is a learning curve, rookie OC, rookie QB rookies everywhere. I dont mind being stingy on principals now to get the philosophical base of the system in, but if we're beating out head against a wall week in week out then yea you have every point proven in the world in your posts. 

Frankly, i was encouraged seeing a change from one half to the next, and I am hoping to see a change from week 1 to week 2. Thats what this is all about, learning what the team can do and what the team is good at in real live games. Lets see what these guys have learned after 1 week of mistakes. 

[peekskill68]

6 minutes ago, IndianaJet said:

One pass, on a broken play, on a simple go route that he happened to be wide open on, yet still somehow looked lost.

 

What's your point?  

Not to get into a debate that's going nowhere.  Agree to disagree...

[Chrebetfan80]

4 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

I just wonder how much of a vested interest this staff has in developing Mims.  This staff inherited Mims, JD drafted him, so I wonder just how much “pressure” JD may be placing on them to make it work with Mims.  

I have heard they all like him and like what he can bring to the offense, just seems they're disappointed its taking him a long time to come around on everything. 

[Paradis]

Just now, Chrebetfan80 said:

I mean no one wants to do things and not be successful.  The real telling thing will be how they come out in week 2.  What did week 1's film teach this staff and these players about themselves that they can take and adapt to the next plan. 

Short yardage game was bad, ok maybe roll out, after 2 unsuccessful attempts to get a short yardage conversion, it was play action to get wilson outside. I think alot of this is a learning curve, rookie OC, rookie QB rookies everywhere. I dont mind being stingy on principals now to get the philosophical base of the system in, but if we're beating out head against a wall week in week out then yea you have every point proven in the world in your posts. 

Frankly, i was encouraged seeing a change from one half to the next, and I am hoping to see a change from week 1 to week 2. Thats what this is all about, learning what the team can do and what the team is good at in real live games. Lets see what these guys have learned after 1 week of mistakes. 

Indeed. I'm at least flirting with skeptical given that those tea leaves have been steeped as such all summer and he still went out there with no lube and tried to throw it in... but, let's see what sunday brings. This is NE, Mike... get the ball in the endzone, but any means necessary

[peekskill68]

Can't wait for the Aiyuk for Mims trade rumors to start.   Doghouse swap...

 

 

[Chrebetfan80]

1 minute ago, Paradis said:

Indeed. I'm at least flirting with skeptical given that those tea leaves have been steeped as such all summer and he still went out there with no lube and tried to throw it in... but, let's see what sunday brings. This is NE, Mike... get the ball in the endzone, but any means necessary

yeah but you would have said things looked pretty good in preseason, team was able to do some nice things.  

But at the end of the day its always different game 1 with live bullets.  They tried a lot of things in the first half.. nothing worked, they mixed it up in the second, found some success.  now its about making adjustments again to hopefulyl start better.  

 

 

[Alentador31]

This all comes down to one thing and one thing only. Wilson's development > Mim's development.

Receivers need to be where Wilson expects them to be. If a WR doesn't know the playbook and you just throw him out there and he runs the wrong route....interceptions happen. I will sacrifice Mim's development in favor of Wilson's every day of the week even if it means playing a less talented player because at least that player will be where he is supposed to be. 

Mistakes will obviously happen,  but if you can minimize them, then you do.

[Paradis]

3 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

yeah but you would have said things looked pretty good in preseason, team was able to do some nice things.  

But at the end of the day its always different game 1 with live bullets.  They tried a lot of things in the first half.. nothing worked, they mixed it up in the second, found some success.  now its about making adjustments again to hopefulyl start better.  

 

 

Wilson is the only thing I'm sure about rn, which is lightyears from where i was 6 months ago. What a relief lol.  He and Corey Davis look like they have some special there.... first time since what, Chad and Coles?

Figuring out a way to coach up the left side of the line and getting Mims on the field will go a long way to setting down everyone. 

[JetBlue]

3 hours ago, Biggs said:

LT was the best player on the Giants the first day he walked into camp.  LT wasn't a 2nd round talented WR.  He was the best defender in the NFL the day he was drafted.  LT needed very little coaching.  The coaches needed to figure out how to get out of his way.  

The point still stands you find away to get your talented, impact players on the field. Period. 

[Alentador31]

Lol can't wait to see this board next week when Cole gets more snaps than Mims. ???

[Biggs]

6 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

The point still stands you find away to get your talented, impact players on the field. Period. 

They should and frankly I'm concerned about Lefleur and the over commitment to install the "Shanahan" system ahead of basic protection for the rookie QB. 

This might be part of that stuborn long game the coaching staff is playing.  

Tough call.  I think the WR have to know the routes, where they are on the field in order to help the QB.  It's tought to know what's really going on with Mims.  He's raw but he's got some talent.  I agree with you they should be able to come up with at least a limited group of plays for him.   It's not like we have 5 guys ahead of him who are really good. 

[FidelioJet]

15 minutes ago, Alentador31 said:

Lol can't wait to see this board next week when Cole gets more snaps than Mims. ???

There is no doubt Cole will get more snaps than Mims - most will be okay with that, it's Jeff Smith getting more that's really pissing people off.

And Crowder will get more than Moore, as he should.

[Augustiniak]

21 minutes ago, Alentador31 said:

Lol can't wait to see this board next week when Cole gets more snaps than Mims. ???

If Cole produces it won’t matter that much.  If the jets don’t score in the first half there will be more complaining.

[Chrebetfan80]

35 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Wilson is the only thing I'm sure about rn, which is lightyears from where i was 6 months ago. What a relief lol.  He and Corey Davis look like they have some special there.... first time since what, Chad and Coles?

Figuring out a way to coach up the left side of the line and getting Mims on the field will go a long way to setting down everyone. 

That wr core was so underrated.  Great low end core we had with chad. If they could ever get a really tall target for chad man he would have feasted.  

Wilson looks the part right now which is refreshing, davis looked good after a slow start too.  Everything else needs to get up to speed.  Understandable that AVT is lagging behind missing basically the entire camp with the pec strain, and now with becton out its going to be another curveball.  Fant looked better on the left side than the right so hopefully we can get some consistency there and start to run the ball a little bit. that will make the whole operation better.  

[peekskill68]

How many posters, supporting the CS for dumping Mims in the dog house because he can't figure out the route trees,  were also throwing Douglas under the bus for not resigning Robbie (who was largely one dimensional and couldn't figure out the route trees either)?  You can't have it both ways.  Some guys just make plays...

[Alentador31]

15 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

If Cole produces it won’t matter that much.  If the jets don’t score in the first half there will be more complaining.

People will definitely complain no matter what. 

[Warfish]

18 minutes ago, Biggs said:

They should and frankly I'm concerned about Lefleur and the over commitment to install the "Shanahan" system ahead of basic protection for the rookie QB. 

This might be part of that stuborn long game the coaching staff is playing.  

Over commitment?

Are you suggesting that the new rookie HC/O-Co should NOT install their systems, and should instead design a system on the fly in order to let a guy who lost the camp battle for a starting WR job get a starting job anyway, in a system where he doesn't need to know the route tree or run the right routes?

I mean it seems they had the desired "limited group of plays" for Mims you want, he played a few plays, and got a catch on one of the simpler routes to run.

 

[Alentador31]

10 minutes ago, peekskill68 said:

How many posters, supporting the CS for dumping Mims in the dog house because he can't figure out the route trees,  were also throwing Douglas under the bus for not resigning Robbie (who was largely one dimensional and couldn't figure out the route trees either)?  You can't have it both ways.  Some guys just make plays...

Please point me to the sources if I'm wrong but I never read/heard anything about Robby not knowing other routes or positions.

Also, he was the best receiver on the roster. That is not the case with Mims. 

[Biggs]

13 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Over commitment?

Are you suggesting that the new rookie HC/O-Co should NOT install their systems, and should instead design a system on the fly in order to let a guy who lost the camp battle for a starting WR job get a starting job anyway, in a system where he doesn't need to know the route tree or run the right routes?

I mean it seems they had the desired "limited group of plays" for Mims you want, he played a few plays, and got a catch on one of the simpler routes to run.

 

I'm suggesting that they protect their No. 1 assett ahead of installing a system.

[Warfish]

18 minutes ago, Biggs said:

I'm suggesting that they protect their No. 1 assett ahead of installing a system.

I'm honestly curious, do you think Coach Saleh or LaFleur think that they'd do a better job "protecting their No. 1 asset" by installing a system other than their own system......but chose to install their system anyway?

It's almost like you think they made a conscious, mutually exclusive, decision to not protect Wilson.  

What system would protect Wilson better, in your view, than the one these Coaches know and run? 

 

[Joe Jets fan]

34 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Over commitment?

Are you suggesting that the new rookie HC/O-Co should NOT install their systems, and should instead design a system on the fly in order to let a guy who lost the camp battle for a starting WR job get a starting job anyway, in a system where he doesn't need to know the route tree or run the right routes?

I mean it seems they had the desired "limited group of plays" for Mims you want, he played a few plays, and got a catch on one of the simpler routes to run.

 

They started two OL who both sucked in camp and preseason.  Guess they knew the playbook…

as for developing the rookie QB, does anyone think it’s better for the WR to run the exact route and drop the pass or the WR improvise and catch the ball?

 

I would think it better for the QB to catch the ball

[Warfish]

1 minute ago, Joe Jets fan said:

They started two OL who both sucked in camp and preseason.  Guess they knew the playbook…

as for developing the rookie QB, does anyone think it’s better for the WR to run the exact route and drop the pass or the WR improvise and catch the ball?

 

I would think it better for the QB to catch the ball

I presume you mean Becton and who?  And who were you starting ahead of Becton and the other whomever?

In terms of developing a WR, yes, I personally think having the WR run the right routes on the plays as called is pretty vital, especially in this system, so when the rookie QB runs a play and throws to a spot, that WR is actually there and we avoid an INT. This isn't backyard football, it's the NFL, and much of the passing is timing and location based for the first option.

Also, lets not inflate Mims one catch Sunday into something special or unique, it was a broken play by the CAR D and he was wide open.

Moore's drops were indeed very disappointing, given the hype on him, but he was where he was supposed to be on both plays, and both balls hit him in the hands.  100% on the rookie Moore for dropping them, a guy most here thought was the best WR on the field during camp.  We'll see if he addresses it in his 2nd ever pro-level game this week I guess.  

It seem tho like you're taking two different contradictory views of camp/preseason performance here, one for OL (bench the guy who sucked in camp!), one for WR (play the guy who sucked in camp and barely played because of bad salmon!).