Jump to content

Rewatched the game focusing on the O-Line. My thoughts:


Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Columbia Jet Fan said:

One thing I'm fairly certain about is Joe D needs to just suck it up and pay retail price for one member of the OL this offseason. Enough with the bargain bin hunting and relying on draft picks. I'm optimistic that Becton and AVT will be guys - but outside of 1-2 guys every year it takes time to develop. We don't have that luxury with a rookie QB. We passed on Conklin who all the fans wanted - he's been great for Cleveland. We passed on Corey Lindsley this offseason - he and the Chargers OL were great yesterday. We passed on Trent Williams whos the best tackle in the league. 

Just overspend on one fn established great player for the love of god b/c I'm going to die watching CMG and GVR get Zach killed. 

Agreed - they need to get a Trent Williams or Joe Thuney type here.  Veterans matter when you have a young QB, they are the types of players that change cultures.  Remember when the Jets brought in Pete Kendall in 2004?  They were the best OL in the league that year.

  • Upvote 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, LIJetsFan said:

Great post OP except I think you were a bit hard on Becton and AVT re pass blocking.  Again, great post, thanks.  

I am becton supporter, but he seemed pretty bad on his pass blocking assignments. Got beat a couple of times. It's year 2, he should be the one player that gives up zero pressures.  Given the weakness at C/RG, we can't have a LT that is just OK. 

  • Upvote 2
  • Thumb Down 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I missed the first half. 
 

can anyone comment on how much this offense uses cut blocks on the back side?

chop blocks made shanahans offense go until they were outlawed. 
 

cut blocks take time to learn because they are too dangerous to practice. 
 

there is also a new cut block rule this year limiting it further 

 

so does this offense use cut blocks?

that could explain some of the problems 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Larz said:

I missed the first half. 
 

can anyone comment on how much this offense uses cut blocks on the back side?

chop blocks made shanahans offense go until they were outlawed. 
 

cut blocks take time to learn because they are too dangerous to practice. 
 

there is also a new cut block rule this year limiting it further 

 

so does this offense use cut blocks?

that could explain some of the problems 

Don't think I saw many cut blocks.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Columbia Jet Fan said:

One thing I'm fairly certain about is Joe D needs to just suck it up and pay retail price for one member of the OL this offseason. Enough with the bargain bin hunting and relying on draft picks. I'm optimistic that Becton and AVT will be guys - but outside of 1-2 guys every year it takes time to develop. We don't have that luxury with a rookie QB. We passed on Conklin who all the fans wanted - he's been great for Cleveland. We passed on Corey Lindsley this offseason - he and the Chargers OL were great yesterday. We passed on Trent Williams whos the best tackle in the league. 

Just overspend on one fn established great player for the love of god b/c I'm going to die watching CMG and GVR get Zach killed. 

I don't think McGovern was bargain bin. He was very much going rate - top 10 at the time - for his position. For a RT, so was Fant. 

Where he went into his shell was then-overpaying at RT (which I whined about plenty at the time) for Conklin. Especially since he was expected to fetch upwards of $18MM before Cleveland signed him for $4MM/year less. Rationalizing Fant at the time, as a lower salary risk (lower guaranteed $) and probably a better fit at LT if that was needed for 1 season (heading into the draft), was not compelling.

In seeing how much of a disappointment McGovern was at center, it was upsetting to not see Douglas even make an offer for Linsley, which would have pushed McGovern over to RG for this season. 

This, honestly, is part of the downside of hoarding all those draft picks (yes, there is one). A GM like Douglas then doesn't want to get too wedded to an expensive veteran with 2+ guaranteed seasons, figuring he'll fill that position through the draft at a fraction of the cost. It's a fine plan if it works out, but only if it works out. 

  • Upvote 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Has anyone on the CS explained why Fant got the RT job over Moses?

I haven’t heard anything and was wondering this myself.  My theory is they think/thought that Fant is a better pass blocker and offers more agility in the run game.  So they likely thought he’d be better at “protecting” Wilson.

If that is the case, I think the big part they missed is Fant is a liability in the run game and a decent run game protects Wilson far more than any minimal perceived upgrade In pass blocking that Fant offers. 

  • Upvote 2
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Becton is a bust.  

We need to move on and find a way to trade for a T.   Because jeeze if Moses is worse than Fant we're in a lot of trouble.

Not even talking about his talent but he can't stay healthy and can't be counted on 

  • Confused 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Columbia Jet Fan said:

One thing I'm fairly certain about is Joe D needs to just suck it up and pay retail price for one member of the OL this offseason. Enough with the bargain bin hunting and relying on draft picks. I'm optimistic that Becton and AVT will be guys - but outside of 1-2 guys every year it takes time to develop. We don't have that luxury with a rookie QB. We passed on Conklin who all the fans wanted - he's been great for Cleveland. We passed on Corey Lindsley this offseason - he and the Chargers OL were great yesterday. We passed on Trent Williams whos the best tackle in the league. 

Just overspend on one fn established great player for the love of god b/c I'm going to die watching CMG and GVR get Zach killed. 

All of this. He tried to do it the "right" way now he should do it the way that actually works. This idea that being cheap is being smart needs to ******* go. He's been here long enough that he should have had better players in the positions being currently occupied by McGovern and Van Roten. At least ONE of them should have been history by now.

He brings in the ******* Mullet for Christ's sakes when he was one of the worst OL in football last year.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, dbatesman said:

Has anyone on the CS explained why Fant got the RT job over Moses?

I doubt they're going to specify reasons, but the best two rationalizations I came up with are:

  1. Rightly or wrongly, Fant was considered more of a pass blocker than Moses, and they were starting a rookie QB.
  2. More returning consistency on the OL. 4/5 of yesterday's starting line was then returning from the latter half of 2020 (when they still weren't so great, but clearly weren't nearly as bad as they started out, nor as bad as they looked yesterday). 

And I'd throw in a 3rd possible rationalization, which is maybe they felt Fant was a better and/or more experienced zone blocker. Of course if they felt Moses was such a poor scheme fit, though, then it's curious why they'd have gone after him in the first place. 

  • Upvote 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Becton is a bust.  

We need to move on and find a way to trade for a T.   Because jeeze if Moses is worse than Fant we're in a lot of trouble.

Not even talking about his talent but he can't stay healthy and can't be counted on 

I wouldn't  label  him a bust just yet, moreover he's unlucky. 

  • Upvote 1
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

And I'd throw in a 3rd possible rationalization, which is maybe they felt Fant was a better and/or more experienced zone blocker. Of course if they felt Moses was such an poorer fit, though, then it's curious why they'd have gone after him in the first place. 

Exactly.  The very fact they signed Moses was an indictment on Fant.  Fant's cap # is over $9 million this year, he's one of the most overpaid people on the team.  Moses was a respected player in Washington, give him a chance.

  • Upvote 1
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, jetscrazey said:

3) 3rd takeaway is the left side (AVT + Becton) actually had a decent day run blocking, but a bad day pass blocking.  They were the only 2 guys getting decent push on running plays, and I don't think the Jets stayed committed enough to running behind these 2 guys specifically.  I'd like to see more downhill blocking and less outside zone with these maulers,.  However on pass blocking they were not very good.  Becton singlehandedly killed 2 drives in the first half allowing bad sacks (one was a mental breakdown where he didn't even block anyone.)  AVT also had a bad miscue not picking up a blitzing DB thru his gap (focusing on a double team with McGovern instead) which blew up a drive.

It's called "I have a scheme and by god, we're going to run it even if we don't have the personnel to do it." plan aka "The Gase." 

This is why I didn't like the hire of a 1st year offensive coordinator over someone more experienced with a track record of being able to use whatever personnel you have. 

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, More Cowbell said:

I wouldn't  label  him a bust just yet, moreover he's unlucky. 

I agree, using the Bust" term was premature...

But...let's see about this injury...If he can't play a minimum of 12 games this year - he's getting into bust territory.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:


 

slightly deceiving as he tried to throw a ton of money at Thuney to most likely replace one of the guards so I dont think the plan was to run it back with GVR.  McGovern is a different story, Douglas did not even go after any of the centers on the market and was not seemingly looking at any in the draft.  I think that may change this year however. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

This was the first game. 
New scheme, AVT didn’t have much of a training camp either, so we shouldn’t be that surprised with yesterday.

6 sacks were too many but half of them could have been avoided if Zack got rid of the ball quicker.

they will improve, let’s hope Becton isn’t done for the year.

 

  • Upvote 1
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, CanadienJetsFan said:

This was the first game. 
New scheme, AVT didn’t have much of a training camp either, so we shouldn’t be that surprised with yesterday.

6 sacks were too many but half of them could have been avoided if Zack got rid of the ball quicker.

they will improve, let’s hope Becton isn’t done for the year.

 

It also could have been a lot more if Zach didn't miraculously avoid pressures. The kid needs to trust his oline enough to go through his progressions.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I'm not sitting through watching this again, but for those that did, what did the o-line do differently in the second half as they seemed to improve on both run and pass blocking after Becton went down.

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I haven’t heard anything and was wondering this myself.  My theory is they think/thought that Fant is a better pass blocker and offers more agility in the run game.  So they likely thought he’d be better at “protecting” Wilson.

If that is the case, I think the big part they missed is Fant is a liability in the run game and a decent run game protects Wilson far more than any minimal perceived upgrade In pass blocking that Fant offers. 

 

17 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I doubt they're going to specify reasons, but the best two rationalizations I came up with are:

  1. Rightly or wrongly, Fant was considered more of a pass blocker than Moses, and they were starting a rookie QB.
  2. More returning consistency on the OL. 4/5 of yesterday's starting line was then returning from the latter half of 2020 (when they still weren't so great, but clearly weren't nearly as bad as they started out, nor as bad as they looked yesterday). 

And I'd throw in a 3rd possible rationalization, which is maybe they felt Fant was a better and/or more experienced zone blocker. Of course if they felt Moses was such an poorer fit, though, then it's curious why they'd have gone after him in the first place. 

Thanks—that all makes sense (your explanations, I mean)

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1) The first takeaway is that if we ever want an elite OL, McGovern and Van Roten need to go.  These guys are JAGs with no upside who consistently get pushed into the backfield, whether it's a run or pass.  Particularly McGovern who does not have great upper body strength seems to be 2 yards into the backfield after every snap.  Van Roten is never gonna be a guy you feel good running behind either, he's just very mediocre.  The Jets have 4 picks in the first 2 rounds and I fully expect them to draft/sign a new guard and center this offseason.
 
2) 2nd takeaway is that George Fant is not a good pass blocker from the RT position, got beat a quite a bit, and he also needs to go.  It's hard to see how Morgan Moses could have been any worse than Fant, at least Moses brings more upside in the running game.  Fant can do neither run or pass blocking that well, so I'm not sure why he was out there.  It was bad coaching to start Fant over Moses.  We know what we have in Fant and it's nothing great.
 
3) 3rd takeaway is the left side (AVT + Becton) actually had a decent day run blocking, but a bad day pass blocking.  They were the only 2 guys getting decent push on running plays, and I don't think the Jets stayed committed enough to running behind these 2 guys specifically.  I'd like to see more downhill blocking and less outside zone with these maulers,.  However on pass blocking they were not very good.  Becton singlehandedly killed 2 drives in the first half allowing bad sacks (one was a mental breakdown where he didn't even block anyone.)  AVT also had a bad miscue not picking up a blitzing DB thru his gap (focusing on a double team with McGovern instead) which blew up a drive.
 
4) 4th takeaway is that Mike LaFleur likes to use tight formations (meaning WRs are not split out wide - they are close to the OL) on inside running plays, which makes no sense to me because it makes it easier for the defensive backfield to converge on the runner more quickly.  LaFleur did a terrible job of giving the RBs space to work with on the play designs.  He also needs to call more downfield running behind Becton/AVT, the outside zone thing is not going to work as well with guys like these.
 
5) 5th takeaway is that Tevin Coleman blew a key 3rd down blitz pickup that also killed a drive.  Coleman on the whole seems slower, I look for Michael Carter to take the starting job and run with it soon.
 
Overall, the OL, tight ends, and receivers did not look like they wanted it as bad as the Panthers defense.  They were consistently losing the point of attack and missing on blocks.  There just didn't seem to be much fire in this unit.  It was a team effort of crappy play, however I feel better about AVT and Becton than I do about McGovern, Van Roten, and Fant, who all need to go.
Great ... now i have to rewatch ... because i remember the run blocking as attrocious on all sides in the first half.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Columbia Jet Fan said:

One thing I'm fairly certain about is Joe D needs to just suck it up and pay retail price for one member of the OL this offseason. Enough with the bargain bin hunting and relying on draft picks. I'm optimistic that Becton and AVT will be guys - but outside of 1-2 guys every year it takes time to develop. We don't have that luxury with a rookie QB. We passed on Conklin who all the fans wanted - he's been great for Cleveland. We passed on Corey Lindsley this offseason - he and the Chargers OL were great yesterday. We passed on Trent Williams whos the best tackle in the league. 

Just overspend on one fn established great player for the love of god b/c I'm going to die watching CMG and GVR get Zach killed. 

I love this optimism.  I truly do.  And I believe a priority must be to build the offensive line.

But Jack Conklin, Corey Lindsley and Trent Williams were never going to come to a bottom five NFL team.  These are desirable starters with plenty of tread on the tire.  Why on earth would they sign with the Jets when they will get comparable offers elsewhere?  Especially for an offensive lineman.  They know it is a five to six man dance, not one-on-one.  When there are weak links getting pushed around, guys get rolled up just like our expensive young Mr. Becton.  Had Trent Williams decided to sign with the Jets, the exact same thing would have happened to him.   The left tackle cannot block the interior too.  I note that the Panther Center - Matt Paradis - refused to sign with us and we ended up with McGovern who was the second best guy on the market.  We paid up for him too.  Paradis beat the snot out of us yesterday.  Bad teams cannot sign the good players unless they back up the truck.  After Trumaine Johnson, Bell and - yes - CJ Mosley we know a single player cannot turn things around.   We need to draft and extend our own people.    

The only way out of our offensive line hell is the draft.  What I saw yesterday convinced me that AVT may be part of the answer in the long run, but he is not going to be a force anytime soon.  The draft capital we spent on him would have yielded three starters had we simply kept to the value board.  We would not have had to throw them into the game either.  We could have still started Lewis, McGovern and Van Roten.  But at least there would be a  $$&^ing backup plan.  My problem is not with AVT - though I do question the wisdom of starting Becton and AVT after missing all or part of preseason.  They were not ready and it showed..  Not that we had any choice whatsoever.  Can you imagine if we threw in the backups?  And there were answers in the draft THIS SEASON.  Just kills me.

Look at the Chiefs.  They took their C Creed Humphrey in the 2d, their RT Louis Niang in the 3d and their RG Trey Smith in the 6th.  They also signed Thuney (he was NEVER coming here fellas) and traded for Orlando Brown.  A whole starting offensive line in one shopping spree.  A good one too (for gap schemes).   Could the Jets have gotten Brown and Thuney?  Not if either of them had any say in it.   Could we have drafted Humphrey, Niang and Smith?  Yes.  And it is exactly the sort of heavy - yet shrewd - investment we need if our line is ever going to gel.  Now Niang and Smith are not fits for the zone scheme, but there were multiple guys available who were fits and who went in the 3d round.  Wonderful Guard/Centers like Menerz and Green and the RT candidate Spencer Brown went in the third.  The Bills did not even need Brown and put him into the wine celler for seasoning.  These guys would have been bona-fide possible answers for the Jets if our 1s fail.  We have no answers, just veterans who are worse than the starters.  

Another whole season where we are playing band aids like Van Roten and people who are VERY likely to depart in free agency next year in Fant and Moses.  A whole year of snaps given to people who will not even be on the $^$&*%$ing team next season.  It doesn't have to be this way.  Our bench lacks any decent starting prospects.  I love what I saw from Grant Hermanns in the preseason, but he is still an UDFA.  Yet he is the best young OL prospect on the Jets this season after AVT.  That is just unacceptable.   We were not a good line.  How can you rebuild the #^&$%$ing team if your bench lacks decent starting prospects?  

Of all the teams in the league the Jets were the one team that should not have moved up early in the draft.   We just had too many needs.  Those two third round picks and the late first would have yielded all the help we needed.  Yes, I know we got back a late 4th (63 spots behind the late 3d we gave up).  But the starting interior prospects were gone by then (we could have taken Drew Dalman in the 4th instead of MC1).  We had the backs but we lacked interior OL prospects and Ray Charles could see it.  Instead, we play Van Roten who is not part of the future.  We also start both Moses and Fant and they are going to leave. 

Just criminal not to have some decent draft picks to insert as plan B.  

 

  • Post of the Week 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Barry McCockinner said:

I've been screaming about the need to draft a center for a few years now. It can't be ignored any longer.

Same. This was my #1 problem with the offseason. There were opportunities there to upgrade and it went ignored. This to me was one of the most critical things that needed to be addressed. McGovern is horrible.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think JD figured, incorrectly, that Lewis or Clark would win the RG position battle and McGovern would be the weak link. An O line can survive with one weak inside lineman. It can not survive with two weak linemen shoulder to shoulder. It was a horrible miscalculation on JD's part and one I would hope will be given the highest priority to fix. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I wanted Conklin badly, too...but as has been pointed out, maybe guys like him and Thuney really don't want to sign and play with teams like the Jets. Still, Conklin signed for less than expected, IIRC, so why was that?

I was among those hoping JD would double dip at OL and WR in JD's first draft in the third round...there were still quality players on the board...but he got "cute" and ended up taking two guys on defense who are looking like total busts and can't even get on the field now. He tried to draft "a little bit of everything" a round too early.  He should be drafting three OL per draft until he gets a "good" line in place.  Instead, he's drafting at half that rate. Many of us have been hoping for a young stud C to be drafted.

To his credit, he has taken first round OL in each of his first two drafts, but after that seems to want go to relatively "on the cheap" like Mac did.  The OL probably will look a bit better as the season goes on, but with Becton out, there's just one young promising OL starting, and none of the other young guys looks particularly promising.  A bunch of JAGs and worse. He seems to really overrate McGovern, who needs to move to G.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...