How long does it take to fix a offensive line?

[Barry McCockinner]

18 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Didn't  Gase run a zone blocking scheme? 

All linemen know man blocking and zone blocking at this level. Usually linemen are better suited for one or the other. The offensive system is different though. It looked like a lot of the pressure came from not knowing who was blocking what gap and also just not picking up/identifying an extra rusher. I don't remember who said it in the "our rb's are trash" thread but they said the Shanahan system is particularly difficult to pick up. So between a rookie OC and the difficulty level it's probably going to take a few weeks here before the o-line gets it's ish together. Becton going down doesn't help matters, obviously.

[Jet Nut]

6 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

It's  not nonsense. We lost one guy to retirement. I wouldn't  call Lewis the glue that was holding that unit together. Anyone could see the OL clearly regressed. 

When Rex took over from Mangini, the OL was not a problem like it is now. 

One guy to retirement and the other G is still recovering and missed all of the preseason.

2 5ths of the line.  40% of the line.  

Anyone who thinks they know the OL has regressed off of one game is kidding themselves.  Funny part is the OL last year started off worse, given time working together improved as the season went on.  Pretty much what most are saying the OL needs, time together

[Claymation]

2 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

So the players should be familiar  with the concept, no?

AVT?

Carolina confused the hell out of the Line and Zach. The speed of the game was faster than they were used to. LaFleur's gameplan was excrement. They settled down in the 2nd half after making adjustments. And for the record Fant sucks, not sure why Saleh and LeFleur felt compelled to start him.

[Smashmouth]

10 hours ago, Guilhermezmc said:

1 year for the Chargers.

Does it piss you off? It should.

everyone needs to calm down and give this a few games . It takes time for an OL to get in sync especially with a new offense new coaching staff and 2 new players on the line one being a rookie. If we had a RB that could actually run the football that would have helped..... all the panthers did the entire game was tee off on our young QB who handled it extremely well when he could have just crumbled. Judge the line after a few more games. Play action does not work when you can't run the football and its a big reason for a QB's success and yes I also think LeFleur needs to max protect when sh*t like that is happening and he made some adjustments in the second half that helped give Zach some time and he responded 

[Barry McCockinner]

Creed Humphrey over Elijah Moore would have gone a long, long way. Hopefully the Moore hype is real. His debut was fugly.

[Barkus]

Trey Smith was a 6th round rookie drafted by KC, he started at RG and had a %100 win rate in pass blocking yesterday. You think he could have been an upgrade over GVR?? The Packers started TWO later round rookies at center and guard and both graded well. JD needs to do better with this o-line! 

[Sperm Edwards]

23 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

I think there may be a little more to adding pieces for us. Like installing a new system this year and guys out of camp not getting reps. Plus snap retirements and  guys injured.
 

But Joe Ds fantasy of building through the draft is getting tiresome. I still remember the difference a year made once we added Big Red between Mangold and Brick. Adding Feeney this year may be the biggest clue to how bad Douglas really is at this. 

I said this yesterday that, for all the giddiness over draft pick hoarding (myself included) - with fan cries to trade down even more, and not trade up on top of that - this is the potential downside to that strategy. The GM who orchestrated the accumulation of all those picks (especially one who prides himself on being an OL guru) doesn’t want to get himself too wedded to expensive veterans on the OL who play over the cheap+young guys he drafts.

The result? Douglas (outside of McGovern, ironically) only picks up veterans who can’t command more than 1 year fully guaranteed at signing: Fant and Moses at tackle; GVR and Feeney at guard. Then when his draft picks become starter-worthy or better, he’s not sitting on a bunch of dead cap for over-guaranteed veteran deals.

It’s a fine strategy on paper, but that’s only if he’s batting 1.000 on each of his OL draft picks (since he only makes one non-project OL pick per draft so far), and if they’re performing as hoped right out of the gate and stay that way, and if as a group the OL is performing at a passable level along the way while each year he swaps out one veteran for one draft pick and if the blocking scheme doesn’t change right a year into the OL rebuild.

So if these picks are slow to start out or have other downturns along the way, while holding tryouts among several lower-priced veterans, also while the rookie OC is trying to install a scheme that commands experience & consistency within it and with one another? Yeah, it looks like what we just fielded on opening day. 

The only disturbing surprise would be if he is surprised by these results.

It’ll improve with some more time, but admittedly it’s hard to watch in the meantime. Especially when they are fielding a rookie QB they’ve gone all-in on from game 1.

[Smashmouth]

6 minutes ago, Claymation said:

AVT?

Carolina confused the hell out of the Line and Zach. The speed of the game was faster than they were used to. LaFleur's gameplan was excrement. They settled down in the 2nd half after making adjustments. And for the record Fant sucks, not sure why Saleh and LeFleur felt compelled to start him.

Fant does not suck, this was a preparation thing more than anything else . The reason for the horrible grades was obviously the first half when we should have adjusted to some quick slants and some runs to the outside to at least keep the defense thinking . LaFleur did something we have not seen here in a very long time I'll say way back to Charlie Weiss and that was make adjustments at the half that actually worked. After such a bad half of football you have to have some optimism when we actually put ourselves in a position to win the game. This team will be fine once they find their Identity. Just look at the Cowboys in their first year of the Jimmy Johnson rebuild and then look at what they did moving forward. All I have to say is I hope this team uses one of its #1 picks next year on a RB that can strike fear into the opposition . Perfect example Christian McCaffery look what he did for a crappy QB in Darnold

[Integrity28]

44 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

I think there may be a little more to adding pieces for us. Like installing a new system this year and guys out of camp not getting reps. Plus snap retirements and  guys injured.
 

But Joe Ds fantasy of building through the draft is getting tiresome. I still remember the difference a year made once we added Big Red between Mangold and Brick. Adding Feeney this year may be the biggest clue to how bad Douglas really is at this. 

Chargers - we need to protect our QB, Feeney has to go.

Jets - we need to protect our WB, sign Feeney.

[Smashmouth]

23 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Creed Humphrey over Elijah Moore would have gone a long, long way. Hopefully the Moore hype is real. His debut was fugly.

Was it really ? Didn't look like he got many targets. Would have loved to see him get some quick slants over the top of those blitzes that might have helped things early

[Barry McCockinner]

1 minute ago, Smashmouth said:

It was only was it really ? Didn't look like he got many targets. Would have loved to see him get some quick slants over the top of those blitzes that might have helped things early

It was just his first game and I'm not making any conclusions off it. He just looked awkward to me trying to catch the ball, and that worries me. I thought center was a higher priority than WR too.

[Integrity28]

8 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Creed Humphrey over Elijah Moore would have gone a long, long way. Hopefully the Moore hype is real. His debut was fugly.

This. I also think we would have been best not trading up for AVT, not that I doubt him - I like him - but, pragmatically our draft could have been:

1. Zach

2. Elijah Moore (let’s face it, this is where they wanted to take him)

#66 and #86 could have address OL with two picks. The prospects were strong all the way thru R4. Plus, guys like Friermuth were there.

[Integrity28]

I think Elijah will be good. I still love that pick. I just don’t expect him to be a day 1 stud.

[Smashmouth]

4 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I said this yesterday that, for all the giddiness over draft pick hoarding (myself included) - with fan cries to trade down even more, and not trade up on top of that - this is the potential downside to that strategy. The GM who orchestrated the accumulation of all those picks (especially one who prides himself on being an OL guru) doesn’t want to get himself too wedded to expensive veterans on the OL who play over the cheap+young guys he drafts.

The result? Douglas (outside of McGovern, ironically) only picks up veterans who can’t command more than 1 year fully guaranteed at signing: Fant and Moses at tackle; GVR and Feeney at guard. Then when his draft picks become starter-worthy or better, he’s not sitting on a bunch of dead cap for over-guaranteed veteran deals.

It’s a fine strategy on paper, but that’s only if he’s batting 1.000 on each of his OL draft picks (since he only makes one non-project OL pick per draft so far), and if they’re performing as hoped right out of the gate and stay that way, and if as a group the OL is performing at a passable level along the way while each year he swaps out one veteran for one draft pick and if the blocking scheme doesn’t change right a year into the OL rebuild.

So if these picks are slow to start out or have other downturns along the way, while holding tryouts among several lower-priced veterans, also while the rookie OC is trying to install a scheme that commands experience & consistency within it and with one another? Yeah, it looks like what we just fielded on opening day. 

The only disturbing surprise would be if he is surprised by these results.

It’ll improve with some more time, but admittedly it’s hard to watch in the meantime. Especially when they are fielding a rookie QB they’ve gone all-in on from game 1.

Good thing is that rookie QB never let it get to him even after the beating he played very well in the second half when he could have had happy feet and folded ( like every other Jets QB of the last decade). For that matter the OL got a little better as well. Once again though I'm not sure why we didn't go into hurry up earlier might have saved us some precious time if we did. If you are down 2 scores in the 4th just go hurry up every second counts. That brings me to the point we were actually in a position to win this game which most of us would have and did laugh at after the first half debacle.

[More Cowbell]

21 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

One guy to retirement and the other G is still recovering and missed all of the preseason.

2 5ths of the line.  40% of the line.  

Anyone who thinks they know the OL has regressed off of one game is kidding themselves.  Funny part is the OL last year started off worse, given time working together improved as the season went on.  Pretty much what most are saying the OL needs, time together

When you have a bunch of rookies coming into the league, I agree there is an adjustment period. AVT is experiencing that but everyone else on that line was on this team last year. Becton, Fant, McGovern, Van Roten were all here last season and have played together. The problem is apparently  they all suck including Becton. These players were hand picked for this scheme. 

[Smashmouth]

6 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

It was just his first game and I'm not making any conclusions off it. He just looked awkward to me trying to catch the ball, and that worries me. I thought center was a higher priority than WR too.

He looked awkward because 1 the timing did not seem to be there and 2 because he was underthrown a few times due to the pressure on the QB. It will correct itself and keep in mind he missed a lot of camp and valuable time getting in sync with his QB. Everyone here has to understand we have a lot of rookies and its going to take some time when we play against the better Units in the NFL and Carolina happens to have a pretty good defense.

[rangerous]

imo it's going to take about 4 games to be good enough but the whole season and continuity into next season to be a difference maker.

[Smashmouth]

5 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

I think Elijah will be good. I still love that pick. I just don’t expect him to be a day 1 stud.

Especially when the QB has not time to get him the ball

[More Cowbell]

26 minutes ago, Claymation said:

AVT?

Carolina confused the hell out of the Line and Zach. The speed of the game was faster than they were used to. LaFleur's gameplan was excrement. They settled down in the 2nd half after making adjustments. And for the record Fant sucks, not sure why Saleh and LeFleur felt compelled to start him.

I think Fant started for continuity. I also agree he is a back up at best. 

If the Jets OL found the Panthers confusing,  they are in for it this week with BB. 

[Claymation]

13 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Fant does not suck, this was a preparation thing more than anything else . The reason for the horrible grades was obviously the first half when we should have adjusted to some quick slants and some runs to the outside to at least keep the defense thinking . LaFleur did something we have not seen here in a very long time I'll say way back to Charlie Weiss and that was make adjustments at the half that actually worked. After such a bad half of football you have to have some optimism when we actually put ourselves in a position to win the game. This team will be fine once they find their Identity. Just look at the Cowboys in their first year of the Jimmy Johnson rebuild and then look at what they did moving forward. All I have to say is I hope this team uses one of its #1 picks next year on a RB that can strike fear into the opposition . Perfect example Christian McCaffery look what he did for a crappy QB in Darnold

Who is a better run blocker, Fant or Moses?

And I don't want the Jets to draft a RB, because for every Christian McCafferey there is a Trent Richardson.

[Jet Nut]

11 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

When you have a bunch of rookies coming into the league, I agree there is an adjustment period. AVT is experiencing that but everyone else on that line was on this team last year. Becton, Fant, McGovern, Van Roten were all here last season and have played together. The problem is apparently  they all suck including Becton. These players were hand picked for this scheme. 

AVT had a pectoral injury that cost him a large portion of camp and every preseason game robbing him of time to work with his OL and to keep his strength up. 

When you say Becton sucks you sound like a fool

[Smashmouth]

1 minute ago, Claymation said:

Who is a better run blocker, Fant or Moses?

And I don't want the Jets to draft a RB, because for every Christian McCafferey there is a Trent Richardson.

Moses 

About for the other comment you can make that argument about every position. If we had a Kamara/McCaffery/Hunt/Jones ..... that game would have looked very different Rookie RB's can usually make an immediate impact and keep a defense honest. Even though some of those guys were 2nd and thrid round picks you still have a much better chance at landing a stud in round one then you do a guy who fell to round 4

[Sperm Edwards]

35 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Creed Humphrey over Elijah Moore would have gone a long, long way. Hopefully the Moore hype is real. His debut was fugly.

I can’t fault them for taking a top 20s WR prospect at #34 over a mid-to-late 2nd round center prospect who was projected to get drafted as late as the late 50s and ended up going way down at #63. 

However… More than one here questioned the trade-up for AVT when he did it, though. If AVT is the 1st team AP guard he was drafted to be, no complaints of course. But he’d have to be to justify a 3-for-1 trade like that.

Otherwise? Douglas could’ve stayed pat at 23 and used the pair of 3s (or maybe their high 3 and as low as a 5th, as it turned out) to trade up enough to grab Humphrey after drafting Moore. Then end up with a legit 1st round OL pick and Moore and Humphrey. (Or in place of Moore, since they couldn’t know he’d slide ahead of time, some other true 1st round prospect who fell as teams drafted for other/bigger needs).

Anyway, one game is way too early to write off Moore as an ill-advised pick over a center prospect who carried a full round lower grade (and further, lasted 29 picks longer on draft day). This isn’t like nitpicking that one guy at an extreme need position was projected at #25 and another guy at a non-need position was projected at #28, and we took the former because of some strict, pure-BAP idiocy that trumps even such extreme needs. This isn’t passing on Mahomes/Watson for a safety. 

*edit* I see @Integrity28 said the same thing, and got it in faster, because as usual someone uses half the words I do to get the same point across lol.

[Smashmouth]

 

[Barry McCockinner]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I can’t fault them for taking a top 20s WR prospect at #34 over a mid-to-late 2nd round center prospect who was projected to get drafted as late as the late 50s and ended up going way down at #63. 

However… More than one here questioned the trade-up for AVT when he did it, though. If AVT is the 1st team AP guard he was drafted to be, no complaints of course. But he’d have to be to justify a 3-for-1 trade like that.

Otherwise? Douglas could’ve stayed pat at 23 and used the pair of 3s (or maybe their high 3 and as low as a 5th, as it turned out) to trade up enough to grab Humphrey after drafting Moore. Then end up with a legit 1st round OL pick and Moore and Humphrey. (Or in place of Moore, since they couldn’t know he’d slide ahead of time, some other true 1st round prospect who fell as teams drafted for other/bigger needs).

Anyway, one game is way too early to write off Moore as an ill-advised pick over a center prospect who carried a full round lower grade (and further, lasted 29 picks longer on draft day). This isn’t like nitpicking that one guy at an extreme need position was projected at #25 and another guy at a non-need position was projected at #28, and we took the former because of some strict, pure-BAP idiocy that trumps even such extreme needs. This isn’t passing on Mahomes/Watson for a safety. 

I completely agree one game is too much to write off anyone as an ill-advised pick. I wanted Humphrey then and I'm kind of whining about it now given the interior of our o-line still looks like poopie. Maybe in a few weeks they clean things up and it won't look so bad.

I hope Moore is a stud.

[More Cowbell]

6 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

AVT had a pectoral injury that cost him a large portion of camp and every preseason game robbing him of time to work with his OL and to keep his strength up. 

When you say Becton sucks you sound like a fool

Did you watch him play on Sunday? He was a freaking turnstile. 

[Claymation]

4 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

I think Fant started for continuity. I also agree he is a back up at best. 

If the Jets OL found the Panthers confusing,  they are in for it this week with BB. 

I believe LaFleur will be better prepared this week with protection and game plan. Let's see what Saleh can dial up for Jones.

[Claymation]

8 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Moses 

About for the other comment you can make that argument about every position. If we had a Kamara/McCaffery/Hunt/Jones ..... that game would have looked very different Rookie RB's can usually make an immediate impact and keep a defense honest. Even though some of those guys were 2nd and thrid round picks you still have a much better chance at landing a stud in round one then you do a guy who fell to round 4

The Jets just drafted MC, let's see what he is before writing him off. They have gaping holes at edge, CB, IOL, TE and RT. 

[faba]

Lets try not to overreact to one game- it was ugly Sunday but lets see if we can improve and make adjustments in play calling

[Claymation]

6 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Did you watch him play on Sunday? He was a freaking turnstile. 

Becton?

 

[sec101row23]

Obviously this year needs to play out before we draw any definitive conclusions about this O-line.   But, going into 2022 McGovern and Fant will have 2 of the top 5 highest cap numbers on the Jets roster.   Combine that with Becton and AVT who were the 11th and 14th overall picks in their drafts, it wouldn’t be unfair to criticize JD if this O-line is still struggling.  It’s great he’s dedicating resources to the line, but if those players don’t perform JD will own those results.  

[Albaniajet]

52 minutes ago, Barkus said:

Trey Smith was a 6th round rookie drafted by KC, he started at RG and had a %100 win rate in pass blocking yesterday. You think he could have been an upgrade over GVR?? The Packers started TWO later round rookies at center and guard and both graded well. JD needs to do better with this o-line! 

We can’t draft OL.  At all. One ok draft pick in 15 years and he’s injured

[More Cowbell]

11 minutes ago, Claymation said:

Becton?

 

I don't  know what game you watched but if you think Becton had a solid performance  until he was hurt, it certainly wasn't  the Jets

[Albaniajet]

3 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

I don't  know what game you watched but if you think Becton had a solid performance  until he was hurt, it certainly wasn't  the Jets

Becton didn’t look great before getting hurt.  And I’m the guy’s biggest fan

[Greensleeves]

I just posted this in another thread: Bart Scott brought up a good point. The coaching staff may be partly responsible for the line performing the way they did. There is a lot of horizontal movement in a zone blocking scheme - said they should mix it up with a more 'man' vertical blocking scheme which would be more natural and easier with the line having so little experience together.