Jump to content

How long does it take to fix a offensive line?


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 188
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

The chargers were ranked bottom five in pretty much every offensive line category last year. To put into context they gave up 196 pressures which ranked 2 worse last year, the Jets for how bad th

The C is typically the "leader" of the O line. The Jets have been a mostly pretty bad to mediocre team over the last 50 years, but they've almost always had good O lines. Why? Because they almost alwa

If you draft the way Mangini and Tanny did and you use FA the way Mangini and Tanny did, you have an elite offensive line in a year.  Brick, Faneca, Mangold, Moore, Woody.   If you draft and use FA th

Posted Images

4 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

Did you watch him play on Sunday? He was a freaking turnstile. 

You have no idea what a turnstile looks like.  This is ridiculous 

  • Thumb Down 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

You don't bring in Lafleur and then give up on zone blocking week 1. The only way they will get better is for them to keep doing it until they master it. Abandoning it week 1 (even for a few plays) so they can play marginally better in the short term is not the right move imo. 

I re-watched the condensed game last night on NFL Gamepass.   38 mins pretty cool.  I concentrated on the O Line.  Totally agree with Bart Scott.  Play after play Becton, instead of power blowing vertically, would lift up and try to move horizontally for the zone block.   He looked slow and lost.  Not sure what you do in this case, it is another cost associated with changing to a CS that employ a new scheme that requires different attributes.   Hopefully they can get it straightened out and try to maximize the strengths of our current players (at least until they can be replaced) because our O line and Bechton in particular looked totally lost and out of synch. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Fantasy Island said:

cleveland-boom-goes-the-dynamite-gif-1.gif

The Chargers had a QB who set every rookie record for a QB.  Had 4300+ yards passing and 31 TDs.  They won 7 games, anyone who thinks they had as many holes to fit in the past offseason as the Jets has no idea what theyre talking about and should take a moment to think instead of giving people thumbs down for being more up to date than you are.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Barton said:

Jets didnt even sniff Corey Linsley. Too busy offering big contracts to "edge rushers" with 4 career sacks.

Who are these "edge rushers" with 4 career sacks that they offered big contracts to?

Curious where theyre hiding and isnt he one of those that were injured a year ago, blew a knee out, the kind of often injured player people are saying you should never sign all across this board?

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, southparkcpa said:

Hire Mangini as a consultant.    He got us Mangold.  Brick.  Faneca.    
 

Tanny is a puppet.   Don’t tell me he did it.  His drafts all suck except under mangini.  

He also got us a lost year of Adrien Clarke at LG.  If Tanny is a puppet, Mangini is a muppet.  

  • Post of the Week 1
  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

People are writing off the OL prematurely. Just like we don’t know what we have at corner, we don’t yet know what we have along the OL. The first game just put the OL on the watch list. 

Probably need to revisit the debate in mid to late October. Our guys need to continue getting experience and the coaches need to continue coaching. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, The Crusher said:

I think there may be a little more to adding pieces for us. Like installing a new system this year and guys out of camp not getting reps. Plus snap retirements and  guys injured.
 

But Joe Ds fantasy of building through the draft is getting tiresome. I still remember the difference a year made once we added Big Red between Mangold and Brick. Adding Feeney this year may be the biggest clue to how bad Douglas really is at this. 

Ah yes Jet Fans...

 

Yeah look i get it we are doing it the right way but I really dont like waiting lets just go with what we did before so we have a decent line for a year or two !! 

 

It was 1 GAME!! the first game these guys played together and sure it looked bad especially with injury but all this the world is falling crap is crazy. Joe is doing exactly what he is supposed to do! Relax we are fine. 

 

The charger example is just the best also, so one team did it so it must just be easy to do. 

 

Yall need to relax! and Feeney as much as you dont like the mullet is not a starter he is a back up that has previously started, pretty good move imo

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a writeup from last year when Tony Pauline reported Gase was switching to "wide splits" in their blocking scheme

https://forums.footballsfuture.com/topic/26225-jets-new-blocking-schemeswot-analysis/

I'm not an X & O's expert. The above link explains the Wide Splits. 

 

The below link to a recent SI article I have posted before but it goes into the outside zone the Jets are now running.  

https://www.si.com/nfl/2021/08/16/why-its-hard-to-copycat-the-shanahan-style-offense-daily-cover

The difference with Shanahan’s offense and its various clones is that it’s extraordinarily difficult to teach, especially up front, because, for offensive linemen, most of the required movements are unique to this scheme. Blocking schemes require specific personnel that exclude a lot of standard, lumbering type linemen. Some of the most critical blocks cannot be practiced, because the backside “cutting” techniques, which ask an offensive lineman to dive at the turf, tripping a chasing defender at the hips, are too dangerous to try out on fellow teammates who could easily sustain lower body injuries.

From the SI article pertaining to the Jets:

It’s a blistering Wednesday afternoon in Florham Park, N.J., and Benton, the Jets’ offensive line coach and run game coordinator, is standing to the side of a five-man sled watching his starting unit surge out of its stance together.

When timed perfectly, the angular reaching steps are like a well-coordinated dance. Everyone moves diagonally to the left and upward toward the outside shoulder of the sled dummy positioned slightly in front of them. The scheme thrives on the marriage of run and pass, essentially making every play look like a stretch run to the outside, which means every play is blocked like an aggressive running play. This gives offensive linemen an obvious advantage on passing downs because they’re not forced to drop back and single themselves out against the leverage of a surging edge rusher or defensive tackle.

At its core, outside zone is a scheme that asks a running back to make a single cut. The running back has a predetermined point that he is sprinting to laterally and, at that point, plants his foot and accelerates upfield. Unlike other runs (inside zone, which asks running backs to make multiple cuts), it takes away some of the guesswork, with the trade-off being more athleticism demanded of the offensive line.

Linemen on the play side have to “run” with the back. It’s a quick movement with the direction of the play where a lineman may be initiating contact within a step or two out of their stance. Linemen blocking on the backside “cut” defenders, which is an easier and more effective block that eliminates defenders trying to run the back down and rally to the ball.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, sec101row23 said:

Obviously this year needs to play out before we draw any definitive conclusions about this O-line.   But, going into 2022 McGovern and Fant will have 2 of the top 5 highest cap numbers on the Jets roster.   Combine that with Becton and AVT who were the 11th and 14th overall picks in their drafts, it wouldn’t be unfair to criticize JD if this O-line is still struggling.  It’s great he’s dedicating resources to the line, but if those players don’t perform JD will own those results.  

McGovern and Fant are likely goners.  We can cut ties with McGovern for $1.3 million in dead money and we will.  We can cut ties with Fant for $1 million in dead money and we will.   I have not seen play that justifies their $10 million salaries.   I expect Moses to leave for greener pastures as he is an unrestricted free agent.  We still have Van Roten under contract for $3.5 million on the cap next year.  Edoga's contract is also up. 

Next year we can count on Becton, AVT and Van Roten.  On the bench there is McDermott, Clark and Feeney.  We also have the UDFAs like Grant Hermanns under contract.  I do not know about you, but I would like to upgrade the personnel. 

McDermott I like.  We have to replace Clark as a prospect since we have no idea how he will heal.  Becton and AVT ARE the future.

It is a fair statement that the Jets need to bring in three starting prospects next year.  None of them need be 1st or 2d round picks.  Interior lineman seldom are.  One in the 3d, another in the 4th and another in the 5th would give us possible answers.  The guy in the fifth is likely a "guard only" player.  One of them has to be a Center. 

We should sign free agents too.  Even as starters.  Perhaps even our own after a salary cut.  But I want draft picks on the bench who have a future for this win tomorrow team.    I do not want retreads on the bench when our 1s are not average starters. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

He also got us a lost year of Adrien Clarke at LG.  If Tanny is a puppet, Mangini is a muppet.  

:lol:  Muppet.  He IS a muppet.

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Ah yes Jet Fans...

 

Yeah look i get it we are doing it the right way but I really dont like waiting lets just go with what we did before so we have a decent line for a year or two !! 

 

It was 1 GAME!! the first game these guys played together and sure it looked bad especially with injury but all this the world is falling crap is crazy. Joe is doing exactly what he is supposed to do! Relax we are fine. 

 

The charger example is just the best also, so one team did it so it must just be easy to do. 

 

Yall need to relax! and Feeney as much as you dont like the mullet is not a starter he is a back up that has previously started, pretty good move imo

Yes, in theory we are doing it right. Building through the draft is fine, but you have to hit on draft hits. Are we doing that part?  

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Guilhermezmc said:

The fact that we lost conklin to the browns and gave george fant 10m a year is mindbogglin

...gave Fant $9MM/yr and then gave Moses ~$4MM/year. Cost the same freaking thing. 

Even in this worst-case, unplanned scenario with Becton suddenly injured, they could have used another backup LT temporarily (if they felt Conklin was purely suited for RT), or just as temporarily, shifted AVT to LT where he played last year. Or any other number of things, after inking Conklin, between 3/15/2021 and 8/31/2022.

How about sign Conklin for RT, and re-sign Beachum to the same GVR/Moses-level contract he gave to Moses (which is what he settled for for Arizona), whether he also drafts Becton or not. Risks/asses covered; upside maintained; same pricetag. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

...gave Fant $9MM/yr and then gave Moses ~$4MM/year. Cost the same freaking thing. 

Even in this worst-case, unplanned scenario with Becton suddenly injured, they could have used another backup LT temporarily (if they felt Conklin was purely suited for RT), or just as temporarily, shifted AVT to LT where he played last year. Or any other number of things, after inking Conklin, between 3/15/2021 and 8/31/2022.

How about sign Conklin for RT, and re-sign Beachum to the same GVR/Moses-level contract he gave to Moses (which is what he settled for for Arizona), whether he also drafts Becton or not. Risks/asses covered; upside maintained; same pricetag. 

But but but, Fant played TE for the seahawks too

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, clayton163v said:

I am not giving Joe Douglas cover (nor do I want to fire him - I prefer continuity). 

But I am pissed that our OL cupboard is bare.  Do I give him a pass on expensive free agents?  Yeah.  Nobody builds a team that way and our expensive free agents have not moved the needle for the Jets.  Who was our last decent free agent?  LaRon Landry?   Expensive free agents are for contenders and we are not contenders.  And that is not speculation.

You can fill one OL spot with jetsom and flotsom from around the league.  The rest has to be draft picks and homegrown players from your pipeline.  We had room for four young starters.  We brought in one.   It is just unacceptable.   

Whoa, I am not advocating Douglas gets fired. Nothing of the sort. But speculating that no one would have signed here, without any proof or basis for it, is giving him unearned and undeserved cover.

I'm happy to give Douglas credit for the good things he's done - and there are a number of them - but it's equally honest to point out where he's gone wrong.

For example, the most likely reason he didn't sign Conklin has nothing to do with Conklin's imagined burning desire to sign what was then believed to be a below-market contract with Cleveland, who was even worse than we were at the time.

Most likely it's because Douglas is a hedge-bet type of GM by nature (which BTW is not inherently a bad thing): he signed Fant because he didn't know which tackle would fall to him in the draft a month later, let alone whether that tackle would be ready to start at LT week 1, and figured if a LT starter was needed then Fant is a better LT fit for the season than Conklin. I'll bet a considerable-sized wager that's all it was, unless he could get Conklin to agree to come here for $11MM/yr or something similarly unrealistic (in which case maybe he would have made an attempt to get both, and then go WR in round 1 instead).

The problem with his pure hedge rationale above is he could have also re-signed Beachum, who was very available (and not for big guaranteed bucks either), to satisfy such a hedge in a worst-case scenario. Then in a best-case scenario (i.e. he signs both veteran tackles and his OT draftee worked out early, so he didn't need Beachum to play LT last year), I'm confident Beachum could've instead played LG or RG as well as the lesser of the stiffs who started at G for the Jets last year. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Guilhermezmc said:

But but but, Fant played TE for the seahawks too

Seriously, he wasn't even starting for them either. I don't follow Seattle's OL that closely, but it seems he was a swing tackle / 6th lineman who got beat out for the RT job by Ifedi in a head to head competition in the summer of 2019. 

So to recap:

  1. Ifedi beat out Fant for the starting tackle job.
  2. Ifedi, the starter, then only got a veteran minimum FA contract.
  3. Fant - Ifedi's backup - got a $9MM/year FA contract from the Jets.

ffs

  • Upvote 1
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

Seriously, he wasn't even starting for them either. I don't follow Seattle's OL that closely, but it seems he was a swing tackle / 6th lineman who got beat out for the RT job by Ifedi in a head to head competition in the summer of 2019. 

So to recap:

  1. Ifedi beat out Fant for the starting tackle job.
  2. Ifedi, the starter, then only got a veteran minimum FA contract.
  3. Fant - Ifedi's backup - got a $9MM/year FA contract from the Jets.

ffs

I am going to post this three times in a row, but it is appropriate.

that is true stephen colbert GIF by Obama

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Seriously, he wasn't even starting for them either. I don't follow Seattle's OL that closely, but it seems he was a swing tackle / 6th lineman who got beat out for the RT job by Ifedi in a head to head competition in the summer of 2019. 

So to recap:

  1. Ifedi beat out Fant for the starting tackle job.
  2. Ifedi, the starter, then only got a veteran minimum FA contract.
  3. Fant - Ifedi's backup - got a $9MM/year FA contract from the Jets.

ffs

Dude when you say it out loud like that makes me even pissed off, JD sucks until proven otherwise.

Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Guilhermezmc said:

Dude when you say it out loud like that makes me even pissed off, JD sucks until proven otherwise.

That transaction bugged me a lot. How many non-Seahawks fans had even heard of Fant before Douglas gave him an established starter's salary? And the rationalizations aplenty here, at the time, about how smart it actually was (e.g. this is his area of expertise, Fant's versatility, etc.). All of them from posters who'd never heard of Fant until Douglas signed him. 

Whatever, it's done.

In fairness to JD, it's entirely possible that - while they may still not look top-notch - the line wouldn't have looked nearly this bad in a more conventional scheme without such a steep learning curve. It's not as though they had the 5 starters' names locked in, getting all the 1st team snaps themselves, and all of them were healthy all summer as they practiced in this system every day. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

That transaction bugged me a lot. How many non-Seahawks fans had even heard of Fant before Douglas gave him an established starter's salary? And the rationalizations aplenty here, at the time, about how smart it actually was (e.g. this is his area of expertise, Fant's versatility, etc.). All of them from posters who'd never heard of Fant until Douglas signed him. 

Whatever, it's done.

In fairness to JD, it's entirely possible that - while they may still not look top-notch - the line wouldn't have looked nearly this bad in a more conventional scheme without such a steep learning curve. It's not as though they had the 5 starters' names locked in, getting all the 1st team snaps themselves, and all of them were healthy all summer as they practiced in this system every day. 

I had heard of him and I liked him.  It still seemed like a ton of money to me and the fact that he wasn't the LT seemed even odder.  I kind of expected them to play Fant on the left and draft Wirfs.  Might be better off now, no? 

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I had heard of him and I liked him.  It still seemed like a ton of money to me and the fact that he wasn't the LT seemed even odder.  I kind of expected them to play Fant on the left and draft Wirfs.  Might be better off now, no? 

OK fine. Other than you, nobody heard of him.

Pain in the ass lol.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Lith said:

I hope he is right.  I also hope he realizes that the proper tense of the word is "dominant."  I guess maybe he could dominate if he avoids going out of bounce.

Not really what a saw,  Fant mostly lost his one on ones, and lost bad. Mekhi too. The inside was just a mess all over the place

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Chewy and the Jets said:

I re-watched the condensed game last night on NFL Gamepass.   38 mins pretty cool.  I concentrated on the O Line.  Totally agree with Bart Scott.  Play after play Becton, instead of power blowing vertically, would lift up and try to move horizontally for the zone block.   He looked slow and lost.  Not sure what you do in this case, it is another cost associated with changing to a CS that employ a new scheme that requires different attributes.   Hopefully they can get it straightened out and try to maximize the strengths of our current players (at least until they can be replaced) because our O line and Bechton in particular looked totally lost and out of synch. 

Becton has barely practiced - he missed most, it not all, of OTAs and Saleh said he has barely practiced the past couple of weeks because of his concussion.

AVT has only practiced the past couple of weeks.

Edoga just started practicing after his early August knee surgery...

Lewis, when healthy physically & mentally was a serviceable OG.

Clark, due to injuries, can't develop like everyone has hoped.

McDermott, who does have some experience at OT & OG is on IR

 

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...