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The real reason Denzel Mims is buried on the New York Jets’ depth chart


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1 hour ago, Augustiniak said:

I think the thing they don’t want to say is that he’s a poor scheme fit with this offense and douglas doesn’t know what to do.  They clearly value quicker wrs who change direction quicker which is why berrios played way more last week.  Mims may have trade value, but they would need to have him play to establish it.  So they’re in a bind.  Right now they’re blaming it on knowing the offense.  

It's both. He's a poor scheme fit as the situational player he can be right now. As pointed out, it would require supplementing the playbook specifically for him to be able to excel occasionally. But if they can put some pressure on him to work at being more, maybe he will be the kind of guy that will play well in any scheme you ask. Again, it's early. Let's see if a fire can be lit. Too soon to give up.

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34 minutes ago, Barton said:

This quote from Saleh today says it all. This is his comment about Crowder and Cole returning to the team for Week 2. 

"Those guys do things the right way, they're where they are supposed to be, they're all gas 100% of the time and they're reliable," Saleh said. "For a quarterback, you can't ask for much more than that. To have two more options on the football field for [Wilson] is priceless."

 

 

They "do things the right way and they are where they are supposed to be, reliable, all gas 100% of the time".

These are DIRECT shots at Mims, IMO.

There’s def something there.  
 

I mean it feels like he was actually speaking to the fans, explaining why Mims isn’t playing. I hope Saleh isn’t one of those guys that really cares what us lunatics think.  

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6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Berrios was obviously playing the slot.  Were they supposed to move Davis to the slot so Mims could play the only position he understands?  Assuming he even fully knows that? 

I was more thinking Moore to the slot Mims opposite Davis. In the other thread I mentioned that the nuance of the differences between the outside guys is not something I purport to know. So am I totally off? I figure boldin/Fitz types can coexist which Mims/Davis I imagine are similar to in terms of their physical stature etc (obviously not production haha). Again open to being very wrong on this. 

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10 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

I understand  that this system has a steep learning  curve but hopefully they can dumb it down for Mims a bit to get him on the field. 

Reading between the lines it is an effort issue. In which case JD needs to be better. There are effective ways to elucidate character in interviews. It's a well researched topic. Between dudes like Mims and zuniga it feels a bit like a weakness in his process. 

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9 minutes ago, TheMo said:

I was more thinking Moore to the slot Mims opposite Davis. In the other thread I mentioned that the nuance of the differences between the outside guys is not something I purport to know. So am I totally off? I figure boldin/Fitz types can coexist which Mims/Davis I imagine are similar to in terms of their physical stature etc (obviously not production haha). Again open to being very wrong on this. 

I also do not purport to know all the distinctions in this offense. I do know that they like to run multiple slots and Shanahan supposedly ran a "position-less offense" which would allow them to run multiple plays from the same formation.  Presumably Mims not being able to run anything but one thing would be problematic.  You also have to consider the number of plays they ran without 3 WRs and the fact that you'd still be asking the rookie to move around.  I would imagine they feel the best message to send would be for Mims to learn his sh*t if he wants to get on the field. 

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1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

I also do not purport to know all the distinctions in this offense. I do know that they like to run multiple slots and Shanahan supposedly ran a "position-less offense" which would allow them to run multiple plays from the same formation.  Presumably Mims not being able to run anything but one thing would be problematic.  You also have to consider the number of plays they ran without 3 WRs and the fact that you'd still be asking the rookie to move around.  I would imagine they feel the best message to send would be for Mims to learn his sh*t if he wants to get on the field. 

Ya I only feel for him if it's not an effort issue. Seems like it might be effort. In which case he can kick rocks, but also JD with a miss there. 

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I was also wondering what is going on with Mims and his lack of playing time. This article makes perfect sense tbh. He needs to learn a complex system and needs some time. The article was also pretty spot on when it mentioned jets fans have no patience which is absolutely true. Hopefully as he becomes more familiar with with the details that this system requires the more he will be play and be targeted. He has the physical talent to be a solid contributor in this offense. 

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I was a huge fan of and had high hopes for Mims from college, even before we drafted him.  I think at this point it’s obvious that he simply hasn’t put in the work necessary for the NFL.  There’s a clip out there of him doing a drill in practice today on Twitter and he looks slow, aloof, disinterested, and like he’s half a**ing it.  You wanna practice like a dog?  You’ll hangout with the dogs on game day.

The thing that frustrates me the most is Mims didn’t have this reputation in college.  By all accounts he was a hard worker.  At this point this is more than smoke though.  It’s a shame because everything I’ve heard behind the scenes was positive.  In the off-season I heard things like they envision him putting in a Deebo Samuel role, but recently I’ve heard that he’s struggling to pick up the facets of being in the slot.  I don’t know if it’s definitively from a lack of effort, but it’s really hard to ignore what Saleh said today.

*EDIT*

Found it:


 

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6 hours ago, JiFapono said:

This is where the stupidity and hypocrisy of the offseason come into play.  We didnt want to sign a veteran CB because it takes away from reps/learning the playbook but we're going to bury Mims behind 3 veterans and 2 sh*tty holdovers?  

Totally illogical 

I think Mike is in over his head. He and @Warfish can felate each other all day, but the evidence is starting to mount. 

 

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9 hours ago, JiFapono said:

This is where the stupidity and hypocrisy of the offseason come into play.  We didnt want to sign a veteran CB because it takes away from reps/learning the playbook but we're going to bury Mims behind 3 veterans and 2 sh*tty holdovers?  

Totally illogical 

J E T S Jets Jets Jets!!!!!

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9 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Let's assume he's dumb as a box of rocks. So, the Coaching staff is unable to find a handful of plays that he can run? He's played football his whole freaking life, their are clearly some plays he is capable of running. Pitiful excuse for the staff not making the most of his talents. 

but your suppose to play the best player. not the best player on paper. or choose favorites because of draft status.

maybe the coaches are right, hes not getting the plays. so now the CS has to make special plays just so Mims can get on the field? and for what, so the fans can see for themselves? 

and its better that way. maybe it will light a fire under Mims ass to get it. if he wants to play then make him earn it. 

i got to trust that Saleh is playing the best guys he has. 

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9 hours ago, NYJ1 said:

Well, the CS isn't necessarily right this time. Mims may not know enough about the Z, F, and X options but he still offers an enormous talent with go routes. You're trying to tell me the Jets CS couldn't utilize Mims more than 3 times? They couldn't just design more go routes and install Mims as part of those plays??

but then you reward a guy whos not performing well. 

i dont think Davis and Cole ran this offense where they were last year. and we know Crowder, Berrios and the Smiths didnt run it here. in 7 weeks since training camp started Mims is the only WR that doesn't get it? 

sorry but this isnt pee wee football where everyone gets to play cause your mommy brought your uniform. 

 

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3 hours ago, doitny said:

but your suppose to play the best player. not the best player on paper. or choose favorites because of draft status.

maybe the coaches are right, hes not getting the plays. so now the CS has to make special plays just so Mims can get on the field? and for what, so the fans can see for themselves? 

and its better that way. maybe it will light a fire under Mims ass to get it. if he wants to play then make him earn it. 

i got to trust that Saleh is playing the best guys he has. 

The coaching staff should be doing this for all players.  Build your system around the players.

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13 hours ago, NYJ1 said:

Crowder is a goner after this season. Mims has an opportunity to take the number 2 job....

good point.  i don't know what truly motivates any player.  sometimes it seems like they feel hurt by not starting or getting their time on the field.  imo if mims want to play more it's all in his hands.  he's got the physical talent.

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8 hours ago, Mogglez said:

I was a huge fan of and had high hopes for Mims from college, even before we drafted him.  I think at this point it’s obvious that he simply hasn’t put in the work necessary for the NFL.  There’s a clip out there of him doing a drill in practice today on Twitter and he looks slow, aloof, disinterested, and like he’s half a**ing it.  You wanna practice like a dog?  You’ll hangout with the dogs on game day.

The thing that frustrates me the most is Mims didn’t have this reputation in college.  By all accounts he was a hard worker.  At this point this is more than smoke though.  It’s a shame because everything I’ve heard behind the scenes was positive.  In the off-season I heard things like they envision him putting in a Deebo Samuel role, but recently I’ve heard that he’s struggling to pick up the facets of being in the slot.  I don’t know if it’s definitively from a lack of effort, but it’s really hard to ignore what Saleh said today.

*EDIT*

Found it:


 

What are we supposed to be seeing in this video evidence?  Looks like a bunch of dudes lined up doing the same drill.  

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13 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

Plus they spent money on 2 FA wrs and kept crowder so it’s not as if they were planning on having mims in there at least right away.  The writing was on the wall with mims when they kept crowder.

They "kept Crowder" by threatening him with getting outright released if he didn't take a 50% pay cut. In exchange for the pay cut, it's likely that remaining $ became fully guaranteed once he agreed to it. That all preceded July camp.

The bigger surprise, to me, was signing Cole. With the coaches now leaking about Mims not knowing the playbook (in so many words), it's not far-fetched that Gase also told Douglas the same, and how often Mims may have run the wrong route. So maybe it wasn't just injury depth that made the GM acquire two more veteran starters, even before drafting Moore. Neither Crowder nor Cole should've been any threat to Mims, as they're more quick than fast (it's possible neither one has run a sub-4.5 40 in his life) & can't win the footraces or contested passes that Mims can.

The thing is, their comparatively slower straightline speeds can seem a lot faster after the ball is snapped - and often get better separation than faster players - if they more consistently pick the right route from their tree based on what the covering DB is doing, where the DB's weight/momentum is leaning, and how suddenly & sharply the receiver makes his move to exploit that. 

If Mims can pick up that neck-up stuff, he could become a very dangerous receiver, instead of just winning a couple height battles or the occasional a 40 yd reception when a DB absentmindedly decides not to cover him at all. Most don't become those special players, even armed with his size/speed/athleticism combo. Mims could be deadly, and (since it's in their interest) it seems the coaches are trying to make him just that instead of letting him skate by on his physical skill alone. 

Funny thing is, if/when he does (and then deservedly earns more playing time - hopefully back to starting - because of it), plenty of fans will simplistically presume that the resulting production would've happened the whole time, if only these foolish coaches realized earlier that Mims was long & fast. What'll be conveniently ignored is that the player's big leap forward wouldn't have happened if they just let him play (never mind start) without putting in the other work to master the playbook and better himself.

I look at it as tough love, or help-me-help-you, from the coaches. Mims turns just 24 in October so (since they have plenty of depth at WR now, and aren't contenders this year anyway) this is as good a time as any to do it. Unlike last year, when there was no one else to put on the field, on this roster he won't get out there just by being healthy.

He'll either rise to this challenge or he won't. If he doesn't, his resulting temporary, borderline-WR2/3 career will fade as some long seasons, injury, or father time shaves 0.1 seconds off his straightline speed, and the last remaining coaches (once wow'd by his upside themselves) are finally fed up with him too often being in the wrong place. That'd be a shame, because it seems he has the talent to be so much more.

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10 hours ago, Mogglez said:

I was a huge fan of and had high hopes for Mims from college, even before we drafted him.  I think at this point it’s obvious that he simply hasn’t put in the work necessary for the NFL.  There’s a clip out there of him doing a drill in practice today on Twitter and he looks slow, aloof, disinterested, and like he’s half a**ing it.  You wanna practice like a dog?  You’ll hangout with the dogs on game day.

The thing that frustrates me the most is Mims didn’t have this reputation in college.  By all accounts he was a hard worker.  At this point this is more than smoke though.  It’s a shame because everything I’ve heard behind the scenes was positive.  In the off-season I heard things like they envision him putting in a Deebo Samuel role, but recently I’ve heard that he’s struggling to pick up the facets of being in the slot.  I don’t know if it’s definitively from a lack of effort, but it’s really hard to ignore what Saleh said today.

*EDIT*

Found it:


 

I’m not sure I ever heard anyone saying that Mims could play the Deebo role, maybe the Kendrick Bourne role.   Deebo has an entirely different skill set.   Moore is probably the best candidate to fill that role.   

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52 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

They "kept Crowder" by threatening him with getting outright released if he didn't take a 50% pay cut. In exchange for the pay cut, it's likely that remaining $ became fully guaranteed once he agreed to it. That all preceded July camp.

The bigger surprise, to me, was signing Cole. With the coaches now leaking about Mims not knowing the playbook (in so many words), it's not far-fetched that Gase also told Douglas the same, and how often Mims may have run the wrong route. So maybe it wasn't just injury depth that made the GM acquire two more veteran starters, even before drafting Moore. Neither Crowder nor Cole should've been any threat to Mims, as they're more quick than fast (it's possible neither one has run a sub-4.5 40 in his life) & can't win the footraces or contested passes that Mims can.

The thing is, their comparatively slower straightline speeds can seem a lot faster after the ball is snapped - and often get better separation than faster players - if they more consistently pick the right route from their tree based on what the covering DB is doing, where the DB's weight/momentum is leaning, and how suddenly & sharply the receiver makes his move to exploit that. 

If Mims can pick up that neck-up stuff, he could become a very dangerous receiver, instead of just winning a couple height battles or the occasional a 40 yd reception when a DB absentmindedly decides not to cover him at all. Most don't become those special players, even armed with his size/speed/athleticism combo. Mims could be deadly, and (since it's in their interest) it seems the coaches are trying to make him just that instead of letting him skate by on his physical skill alone. 

Funny thing is, if/when he does (and then deservedly earns more playing time - hopefully back to starting - because of it), plenty of fans will simplistically presume that the resulting production would've happened the whole time, if only these foolish coaches realized earlier that Mims was long & fast. What'll be conveniently ignored is that the player's big leap forward wouldn't have happened if they just let him play (never mind start) without putting in the other work to master the playbook and better himself.

I look at it as tough love, or help-me-help-you, from the coaches. Mims turns just 24 in October so (since they have plenty of depth at WR now, and aren't contenders this year anyway) this is as good a time as any to do it. Unlike last year, when there was no one else to put on the field, on this roster he won't get out there just by being healthy.

He'll either rise to this challenge or he won't. If he doesn't, his resulting temporary, borderline-WR2/3 career will fade as some long seasons, injury, or father time shaves 0.1 seconds off his straightline speed, and the last remaining coaches (once wow'd by his upside themselves) are finally fed up with him too often being in the wrong place. That'd be a shame, because it seems he has the talent to be so much more.

I think it’s a combo of keeping crowder and signing Cole. Clearly this coaching staff wanted wrs with experience who didn’t need that much adjustment time to this system, and for grooming a new qb, that makes sense.  

The incongruity is that they jettisoned bless Austin saying the secondary is a youth movement (even though he’s what, 25?) while sitting mims saying he’s got to learn everything before they put him out there.  The logic doesn’t fly especially when he averaged 15.5 ypc last year and he’s clearly a threat downfield.

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3 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

I think it’s a combo of keeping crowder and signing Cole. Clearly this coaching staff wanted wrs with experience who didn’t need that much adjustment time to this system, and for grooming a new qb, that makes sense.  

The incongruity is that they jettisoned bless Austin saying the secondary is a youth movement (even though he’s what, 25?) while sitting mims saying he’s got to learn everything before they put him out there.  The logic doesn’t fly especially when he averaged 15.5 ypc last year and he’s clearly a threat downfield.

Someone already answered this. The logic "flies" because they're starting a rookie QB on offense, not on defense. IMO it's not a subtle difference, either. Plus Crowder & Cole were no more in this system than Mims back in March. 

Also there's no tying of the release of Austin to a CB youth movement. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Further, it would seem if they could've gotten any pick in return for Austin he'd have been traded instead of released; getting extra picks is the one thing Douglas is great at so far.

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2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Someone already answered this. The logic "flies" because they're starting a rookie QB on offense, not on defense. IMO it's not a subtle difference, either. Plus Crowder & Cole were no more in this system than Mims back in March. 

Also there's no tying of the release of Austin to a CB youth movement. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Further, it would seem if they could've gotten any pick in return for Austin he'd have been traded instead of released; getting extra picks is the one thing Douglas is great at so far.

I think the next few weeks will answer this, assuming both crowder and Cole play.  Do these guys make a difference to wilson?  While crowder and Cole were never in this particular system, they likely have a more advanced understanding of the routes, especially compared to someone like mims.  

Assuming wilson is not getting hit every pass play, we’ll see how much of a difference these experienced wrs make to the offense.  It would also help if moore got involved and contributed.  

‘At the end of the day’, if the jets are scoring and moving the ball and wilson looks good, not many here will complain who is catching the passes.  Maybe wilson is the type of qb who makes guys like berrios look good, and that would be great.  On the other hand, if the jets have another goose at halftime, this board will be lighting up with madness about why they’re not playing mims.  And that’s just how it is.  To be continued..

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10 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

The horror of players being made accountable and earning positions. I actually welcome this, as this has not been the mantra with this organization in many years.

Oh really?  We were forced to watch Jim Leonhard and Eric Smith both get torched by every TE on the planet for 10 years because multiple different head coaches thought they worked hard in practice

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1 minute ago, Augustiniak said:

I think the next few weeks will answer this, assuming both crowder and Cole play.  Do these guys make a difference to wilson?  While crowder and Cole were never in this particular system, they likely have a more advanced understanding of the routes, especially compared to someone like mims.  

Assuming wilson is not getting hit every pass play, we’ll see how much of a difference these experienced wrs make to the offense.  It would also help if moore got involved and contributed.  

‘At the end of the day’, if the jets are scoring and moving the ball and wilson looks good, not many here will complain who is catching the passes.  Maybe wilson is the type of qb who makes guys like berrios look good, and that would be great.  On the other hand, if the jets have another goose at halftime, this board will be lighting up with madness about why they’re not playing mims.  And that’s just how it is.  To be continued..

You'll never know the absence of a problem averted by keeping a wrong-route-running receiver off the field. 

If there's failure without Mims on the field, that is not proof of otherwise-success with Mims on it.

Agree on the to be continued part, though. That's a lot of what the season is all about: see which guys are legit players, which are legit talented players, and which are just talents. 

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7 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You'll never know the absence of a problem averted by keeping a wrong-route-running receiver off the field. 

If there's failure without Mims on the field, that is not proof of otherwise-success with Mims on it.

Agree on the to be continued part, though. That's a lot of what the season is all about: see which guys are legit players, which are legit talented players, and which are just talents. 

Agreed that if there’s a failure without mims, that does not imply that he would fix it.  However one inescapable conclusion would be that the coaching staff overestimated the importance of mims knowing the entire route tree, and may have underestimated the importance of having guys with his height/speed who have a huge catch radius who may be able to help a rookie qb in other ways.  

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11 hours ago, Paradis said:

I think Mike is in over his head. He and @Warfish can felate each other all day, but the evidence is starting to mount. 

No need to be a annoying little prick Paradis, as no one is "fellating" JD, least of all me. :rolleyes:

We both know the Jets Organization isn't going to do anything to JD during the 2021 season.  

So with that fact in hand, there is no harm (as a fan) in evaluating this team and it's results at year end.  

Be assured, if at year end all of JD's picks have underperformed and the team overall underperforms even my cynical expectations, I will not be "fellating" JD, I'll be calling for his replacement.

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1 hour ago, Augustiniak said:

The incongruity is that they jettisoned bless Austin saying the secondary is a youth movement (even though he’s what, 25?) while sitting mims saying he’s got to learn everything before they put him out there.  The logic doesn’t fly especially when he averaged 15.5 ypc last year and he’s clearly a threat downfield.

I think the difference is that we have a rookie QB.  They want versatile WRs who know the system and know the route tree that the QB can rely on.  Does not sound like Mims is there yet.  Appears as if he is taking a bit longer to learn the route tree than some of the other guys, so he is lower on the depth chart. 

I do think we see arole for him in the future, otherwise you send him to the practice squad, but it would appear they don't want to risk him being poached.  I think he can be a dangerous weapon for this team, and hope his role expands as the season goes on.

And I really want to be right about a player for a change.

 

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