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We have another Darnold...AKA Zack Wilson


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3 minutes ago, jgb said:

Yep. Could've had a Trubisky or Minshew. Just like we could've had Tannehill a couple years ago. Also, I'm just going to leave this here:

******

Scouting Report: QB Zach Wilson 6’3” 209 (BYU)

Zach Wilson is a polished and erratic athletic quarterback who broke out in his junior season against a weak schedule and inferior level of competition. There is a lot of hype surrounding this kid, but in reality, he only looks like a glorified high school quarterback who excels at sandlot football. Operates exclusively out of shotgun formation.

Well schooled in terms of quarterback mechanics and fundamentals. However, overuses play-action fake — does it all the time and he does not hide the ball well. Often it looks like a wasted motion. Good pocket poise and toughness. Good mobility and athleticism — can step up and roll in either direction, but far more effective and has a tendency to roll out to his right. Smart and makes quick decisions with the ball. Looks really good overall in the pocket, but that is where referring to him as “good” ends.

I watched every one of his throws and runs in 2020 and I am not seeing it or feeling it with this guy in terms of arm strength, touch, ball placement, or accuracy. Half of his throws look great and half of them look receiver “unfriendly,” or downright bad. Many passes were high or low and were either incomplete or he gave the receivers literally no chance to pick up additional yards. It literally and consistently was like watching two different quarterbacks throw. He will be an interception machine in the NFL. 

I really question how he will do throwing a larger NFL regulation football opposed to the smaller college regulation football he has been throwing. Seemed to do best throwing to wide open receivers or against zone defenses. I counted a good number of throws when receivers literally had to stand there and wait on the ball to get to them. Tends to put too much air under passes, they look like they take too long to get there and did not show much zip or mustard on the football in his junior season. Tends to work short and deep routes with mixed results. Deep passes are a 50-50 jump ball half the time. Covers up for lack of arm strength, touch and accuracy in the intermediate level by primarily only working sidelines. Tends to stay out of working the middle of the field in that range, especially in tight man. I was not impressed with his downfield results whatsoever.

Clearly and undoubtedly lacks consistency. Gives off a quirky vibe and energy. Absolutely at his best inside the 10-yard line. Throws excellent fade routes in those situations. Fades inside the 10 are his best pass. Has the ability to take off and run, but only averaged 3.0 yards per carry in his college career. However, I was more impressed with him as a runner than a thrower. Tends to do best when ad-libbing and has some Houdini to his game with a shovel and sidearmed passes. There is absolutely nothing dominant to his game combined with average arm and accuracy. Classic overhyped player. Manufactured quarterback. Surefire bust.

Where would I draft Zach Wilson?

Daniel Kelly’s Draft Board: 3rd round — and I would not select him if I was a GM. He would not even be on my draft board. It would be foolish to take him in the first round. He will get everybody fired. Best chance to succeed is in an offense filled with trick plays. 

Probability of being a bust: Extremely high. 

If I were a GM, this is the question I need to be answered in my mind about Zach Wilson: His uncle owns Jet Blue airlines. I would need to get a clear understanding and feel for his level of entitlement whether it is low or high, that would be a must. 

My Top 10 concerns about Wilson:

-Accuracy and ball placement. Lacks consistent touch. Erratic. All over the road in these three areas throughout the 2020 season. This is as clear as day on the game film. 

-Approximately half of the deep passes are “50-50” jump balls. At least that is how it seemed watching him throw. That story will not have a happy ending in the NFL. 

-He will now have to throw a larger-sized football. He struggled enough throwing a smaller regulation-sized football, I can not imagine how much he will struggle to go to the NFL and now having to throw an even larger regulation-sized football. 

-Level of competition. After two very domestic statistical seasons at BYU, he “broke out” in his junior season against a weak schedule, inferior level of competition who played a lot of zone. It seemed like the schedule was made to purposely make him artificially shine. I was not impressed even watching his full body of work at the college level he played at — I believe he will struggle mightily with competition in the NFL, which will be dramatically more skilled, faster, and more complex. This is a grave concern. Out of all the games in 2020, looked best vs. UCF. I have watched the game for 40 years and Wilson looks very average when I compare him to all the quarterbacks I have seen play in the NFL. He is nowhere near as good as RGIII when he was drafted. It is not even a comparison, to be honest. If this kid had played his college football in the SEC, we would not know his name. 

-Throwing arm (shoulder injury) and previous surgeries. Watching him throw I think this is a lot bigger issue than anyone is admitting. He puts air, sometimes too much air under a majority of the passes he throws. The film does not lie. Rarely put much heat on passes. Lacks consistent zip on the football. 

-At BYU he ranks 9th all-time on an extremely average list of their schools’ top 10 list in yardage. Outside of Steve Young (who was a star in the NFL), he ranks behind an extremely mediocre group of names; Ty Detmer, Max Hall, John Beck, Robbie Bosco, John Walsh, and Kevin Fiterik. That is an awful sign. I remember watching Detmer, who was a career NFL back-up. Detmer was dramatically better in my mind. That is alarming. 

-Lack of instincts for the position of quarterback. He looks like a “manufactured QB,” In other words, he looks like a good athlete who was trained and well-coached to be a quarterback. He does not at all look like someone who was born to be a quarterback.

-Ran offense exclusively out of shotgun formation. There will be a real adjustment period if the team that drafts him plans on playing in a traditional drop-back system. 

-A number of times his receivers literally had to stand there and wait for football to arrive on shorter intermediate routes. Those will be pick-sixes in the NFL. 

-Can take off and run but only averaged 3.0 yards per carry in his college career. Nobody will ever mistake Wilson with Randall Cunningham or Michael Vick. He is not a quarterback who will beat any teams in the NFL with his feet. Not remotely elusive.

-How NFL defenses will beat him: Play tight man coverage, bracket coverages, and force him to funnel throws to the middle of the field. Send heavy array of blitzes off the defense’s left side and take away his ability to roll out to his right, which he loves to do. Hit him hard early and often, bully him, talk a lot of trash and get under his skin. Dare him to respond. Take away fade inside the 10 — and take away his ability to run a play-action and to try to run it in.

Daniel Kelly is a former NFL scout with the New York Jets. He was hired on the regime which featured Bill Parcells, Bill Belichick, Scott Pioli, and Dick Haley. He currently writes for Sports Illustrated Detroit Lions and he is a contributing evaluator for Draft Diamonds. For more information about him visit his website at whateverittakesbook.com. He can be followed on Twitter @danielkellybook and his Facebook page is WHATEVER IT TAKES NFL TALK. 

https://www.nfldraftdiamonds.com/2021/03/zach-wilson-4/

Ridiculous analysis tbh. Zach has already proven some his points are nonsense. 

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Damn I never saw so many QB gurus on one message board. 

No denying it..throwing into coverage instead of laying it out of bounds..hello Darnold once again..failing to make decisions that a decent high school QB knows to make..the MVP being the field goal k

Laughable. TWO games in and he's a bust? He almost single handedly beat Carolina last week and had a 4th quarter 93 yeard drive in crunch time against a above-average defense.That same defense pretty

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1 minute ago, Irish Jet said:

Ridiculous analysis tbh. Zach has already proven some his points are nonsense. 

I'm not a scout nor am I endorsing this scouting report. However, those that blast people for overreacting and calling Wilson a bust already are equally overreacting calling him a future star already.

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Not all interceptions are equal..conversely, there were wide open receivers all day long that Wilson either didn't see or more likely, was laser focused on the ones that were not the best choices...the pattern here is not good and IMO he is not ready to be a starter.
Laser focus is a commonality among rookie QBs ... its innate.

Up to ML and QB Coavh to help this kid.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

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11 hours ago, Mogglez said:

If it was bad on TV, I can assure you that it was worse live.  After today I worry if we drafted the Josh Rosen of this class.

If this is in fact the case, then JD would be in serious trouble.  I hope this is just growing pains for Zack. BYU and the competition was certainly different than the NFL and he can't just throw the rock around the yard.  He needs to get rid of hero ball mentality and take what is there.  Hard to know if he "missed" the wide open or was being greedy looking for more, the quick score.

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I know... battered fan syndrome.  He could have came out and lit the world on fire and the same people would be saying "woah, it's just his 2nd game" blah blah.  Just remember that Aaron Rodgers is a washed up hack.. right?  That's what we saw last week.  People have bad games, Zach will have a breakout game at some point this season looking like a pro-bowler.  We shouldn't crown him then, and we shouldn't send him packing now.  

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12 minutes ago, Claymation said:

Zach is on pace to throw 3978 yards this year.

The most Sam threw for the Jets is 3094.

While I have always been a big fan of Sam and I am glad he is doing well in Carolina, he is not as good as Zach.

Yards don't mean much without context.  Two data points don't make a straight line, but Sam is on pace for near 5,000 yards this year.

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1 hour ago, Irish Jet said:

Ridiculous analysis tbh. Zach has already proven some his points are nonsense. 

Draft diamonds is pure clickbait.  Actually go to their site and look at some of the most ridiculous takes imaginable being preached as gospel.  To quote anything they do is the same as quoting some conspiracy nut writing from his basement.

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18 minutes ago, rtnelson said:

Draft diamonds is pure clickbait.  Actually go to their site and look at some of the most ridiculous takes imaginable being preached as gospel.  To quote anything they do is the same as quoting some conspiracy nut writing from his basement.

A convenient way to throw out the analysis without actually addressing it. The writer has a legitimate NFL pedigree. It would be unwise to disregard the report because you don't like its content. 

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7 hours ago, Green Ghost said:

Today was his “you get one of these” games. He has another one like this, it’s not an outlier. It’s who he is.

We went through the same bs with Darnold, the excuses, passing the blame everything and one but him. I don’t think that will fly again, fair or not with this kid.

Meanwhile Darnold is playing much better with his new team.   Maybe those “ excuses” were legit.

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7 minutes ago, jgb said:

A convenient way to throw out the analysis without actually addressing it. The writer has a legitimate NFL pedigree. It would be unwise to disregard the report because you don't like its content. 

So then how do you dismiss the opinions of Simms, Young, Baldy and other NFL players that think Wilson will be great?

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3 minutes ago, jgb said:

A convenient way to throw out the analysis without actually addressing it. The writer has a legitimate NFL pedigree. It would be unwise to disregard the report because you don't like its content. 

I'm not going to go down point by point addressing all of his issues with Zach.  Mostly because at this stage it is completely moot.  Zach has been drafted, is on the team and is our starting QB.

All I'll say is, if you want to take that guys word for it.  That is up to you.  However in my opinion, he is a hack clickbait writer.  Not just because of his opinions on Zach.

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52 minutes ago, Claymation said:

Zach is on pace to throw 3978 yards this year.

The most Sam threw for the Jets is 3094.

While I have always been a big fan of Sam and I am glad he is doing well in Carolina, he is not as good as Zach.

How many interceptions is he on pace for? I think it's 42, though in fairness that extra game bumps it up a bit.

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4 minutes ago, Bowles Movement said:

So then how do you dismiss the opinions of Simms, Young, Baldy and other NFL players that think Wilson will be great?

Nope. I think they are all valid data points.

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7 minutes ago, rtnelson said:

I'm not going to go down point by point addressing all of his issues with Zach.  Mostly because at this stage it is completely moot.  Zach has been drafted, is on the team and is our starting QB.

All I'll say is, if you want to take that guys word for it.  That is up to you.  However in my opinion, he is a hack clickbait writer.  Not just because of his opinions on Zach.

I'm not doing that nor advocating that. The world is not black and white. There are voices who believe Zach is going to be the best draft pick in the class, and others -- like this guy -- former scout for Parcells and Belichick -- who think he's a "surefire bust." The conclusion is that no conclusions about what Zach will be as an NFL QB can be drawn, yet. I caution both those who have convinced themselves that he's a slam dunk FQB and those that have already written him off. Both are equally unwise.

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13 hours ago, Cut Jet Penalty Makers said:

No denying it..throwing into coverage instead of laying it out of bounds..hello Darnold once again..failing to make decisions that a decent high school QB knows to make..the MVP being the field goal kicker in this game....receivers can't catch, defense making tackles high on the body instead of cutting the legs out from under...looks like 2 and 14 for the season...poor drafts by JD...again  

After one bad game.

Dont look now but every rookie QB other than the one playing on a playoff roster did the same.

 

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2 minutes ago, Claymation said:

Are you not good at arithmetic and you need me to help you with 4th grade math?

42.5 interceptions. Are you taking the over or under?

rhetorical question

noun

a question asked in order to create a dramatic effect or to make a point rather than to get an answer.

"the presentation was characterized by impossibly long sentences and a succession of rhetorical questions"

Just now, Jet Nut said:

After one bad game.

Dont look now but every rookie QB other than the one playing on a playoff roster did the same.

 

So what

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2 minutes ago, Claymation said:

Are you not good at arithmetic and you need me to help you with 4th grade math?

42.5 interceptions. Are you taking the over or under?

Gee. That's the amount I put in there. I must be good at 4th grade math. I'll take the over. I have confidence in Hackenzack 

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7 minutes ago, jgb said:

I'm not doing that nor advocating that. The world is not black and white. There are voices who believe Zach is going to be the best draft pick in the class, and others -- like this guy -- former scout for Parcells and Belichick -- who think he's a "surefire bust." The conclusion is that no conclusions about what Zach will be as an NFL QB can be drawn, yet. I caution both those who have convinced themselves that he's a slam dunk FQB and those that have already written him off. Both are equally unwise.

Absolutely a reasonable take, and the same as mine.  Nobody knows what will happen with any of these QB's.  But posting a scathing review of Zach in the draft is just as questionable as posting a glowing review or quoting Simms or Romo at this stage.

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7 minutes ago, jgb said:

 

So what

The suicide watch compared to understanding that rookie QBs need more than 2 games to develop and wanting to dump out is stupid 

All the whining after a rookie has a terrible game is such a f'n waste of time.

 

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4 minutes ago, jgb said:

rhetorical question

noun

a question asked in order to create a dramatic effect or to make a point rather than to get an answer.

"the presentation was characterized by impossibly long sentences and a succession of rhetorical questions"

So what

"Is the Pope Catholic?" is a Rhetorical question. The interception answer is skewed because of yesterday's performance and how few games the Jets played. Therefore not a rhetorical question. Are you taking the over then?

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3 minutes ago, rtnelson said:

Absolutely a reasonable take, and the same as mine.  Nobody knows what will happen with any of these QB's.  But posting a scathing review of Zach in the draft is just as questionable as posting a glowing review or quoting Simms or Romo at this stage.

Exactly, one scathing review over the 95+% that were positive proves what exactly?  

How many said that Josh Allen was horrid and never would be anything in the NFL over a large contingent who lover Josh Rosen

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8 minutes ago, rtnelson said:

Absolutely a reasonable take, and the same as mine.  Nobody knows what will happen with any of these QB's.  But posting a scathing review of Zach in the draft is just as questionable as posting a glowing review or quoting Simms or Romo at this stage.

Disagree. All data points are considered by those who seek truth rather than the thin comfort of puffery.

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8 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

The suicide watch compared to understanding that rookie QBs need more than 2 games to develop and wanting to dump out is stupid 

All the whining after a rookie has a terrible game is such a f'n waste of time.

 

So you find these fans "stupid" and engaging in a "waste of time." Weren't you just excoriating me (falsely) for "telling Jet fans what to think?"

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6 minutes ago, Claymation said:

"Is the Pope Catholic?" is a Rhetorical question. The interception answer is skewed because of yesterday's performance and how few games the Jets played. Therefore not a rhetorical question. Are you taking the over then?

Do you like to lose your money?

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2 hours ago, jgb said:

Yep. Could've had a Trubisky or Minshew. Just like we could've had Tannehill a couple years ago. Also, I'm just going to leave this here:

******

Scouting Report: QB Zach Wilson 6’3” 209 (BYU)

Zach Wilson is a polished and erratic athletic quarterback who broke out in his junior season against a weak schedule and inferior level of competition. There is a lot of hype surrounding this kid, but in reality, he only looks like a glorified high school quarterback who excels at sandlot football. Operates exclusively out of shotgun formation.

Well schooled in terms of quarterback mechanics and fundamentals. However, overuses play-action fake — does it all the time and he does not hide the ball well. Often it looks like a wasted motion. Good pocket poise and toughness. Good mobility and athleticism — can step up and roll in either direction, but far more effective and has a tendency to roll out to his right. Smart and makes quick decisions with the ball. Looks really good overall in the pocket, but that is where referring to him as “good” ends.

I watched every one of his throws and runs in 2020 and I am not seeing it or feeling it with this guy in terms of arm strength, touch, ball placement, or accuracy. Half of his throws look great and half of them look receiver “unfriendly,” or downright bad. Many passes were high or low and were either incomplete or he gave the receivers literally no chance to pick up additional yards. It literally and consistently was like watching two different quarterbacks throw. He will be an interception machine in the NFL. 

I really question how he will do throwing a larger NFL regulation football opposed to the smaller college regulation football he has been throwing. Seemed to do best throwing to wide open receivers or against zone defenses. I counted a good number of throws when receivers literally had to stand there and wait on the ball to get to them. Tends to put too much air under passes, they look like they take too long to get there and did not show much zip or mustard on the football in his junior season. Tends to work short and deep routes with mixed results. Deep passes are a 50-50 jump ball half the time. Covers up for lack of arm strength, touch and accuracy in the intermediate level by primarily only working sidelines. Tends to stay out of working the middle of the field in that range, especially in tight man. I was not impressed with his downfield results whatsoever.

Clearly and undoubtedly lacks consistency. Gives off a quirky vibe and energy. Absolutely at his best inside the 10-yard line. Throws excellent fade routes in those situations. Fades inside the 10 are his best pass. Has the ability to take off and run, but only averaged 3.0 yards per carry in his college career. However, I was more impressed with him as a runner than a thrower. Tends to do best when ad-libbing and has some Houdini to his game with a shovel and sidearmed passes. There is absolutely nothing dominant to his game combined with average arm and accuracy. Classic overhyped player. Manufactured quarterback. Surefire bust.

Where would I draft Zach Wilson?

Daniel Kelly’s Draft Board: 3rd round — and I would not select him if I was a GM. He would not even be on my draft board. It would be foolish to take him in the first round. He will get everybody fired. Best chance to succeed is in an offense filled with trick plays. 

Probability of being a bust: Extremely high. 

If I were a GM, this is the question I need to be answered in my mind about Zach Wilson: His uncle owns Jet Blue airlines. I would need to get a clear understanding and feel for his level of entitlement whether it is low or high, that would be a must. 

My Top 10 concerns about Wilson:

-Accuracy and ball placement. Lacks consistent touch. Erratic. All over the road in these three areas throughout the 2020 season. This is as clear as day on the game film. 

-Approximately half of the deep passes are “50-50” jump balls. At least that is how it seemed watching him throw. That story will not have a happy ending in the NFL. 

-He will now have to throw a larger-sized football. He struggled enough throwing a smaller regulation-sized football, I can not imagine how much he will struggle to go to the NFL and now having to throw an even larger regulation-sized football. 

-Level of competition. After two very domestic statistical seasons at BYU, he “broke out” in his junior season against a weak schedule, inferior level of competition who played a lot of zone. It seemed like the schedule was made to purposely make him artificially shine. I was not impressed even watching his full body of work at the college level he played at — I believe he will struggle mightily with competition in the NFL, which will be dramatically more skilled, faster, and more complex. This is a grave concern. Out of all the games in 2020, looked best vs. UCF. I have watched the game for 40 years and Wilson looks very average when I compare him to all the quarterbacks I have seen play in the NFL. He is nowhere near as good as RGIII when he was drafted. It is not even a comparison, to be honest. If this kid had played his college football in the SEC, we would not know his name. 

-Throwing arm (shoulder injury) and previous surgeries. Watching him throw I think this is a lot bigger issue than anyone is admitting. He puts air, sometimes too much air under a majority of the passes he throws. The film does not lie. Rarely put much heat on passes. Lacks consistent zip on the football. 

-At BYU he ranks 9th all-time on an extremely average list of their schools’ top 10 list in yardage. Outside of Steve Young (who was a star in the NFL), he ranks behind an extremely mediocre group of names; Ty Detmer, Max Hall, John Beck, Robbie Bosco, John Walsh, and Kevin Fiterik. That is an awful sign. I remember watching Detmer, who was a career NFL back-up. Detmer was dramatically better in my mind. That is alarming. 

-Lack of instincts for the position of quarterback. He looks like a “manufactured QB,” In other words, he looks like a good athlete who was trained and well-coached to be a quarterback. He does not at all look like someone who was born to be a quarterback.

-Ran offense exclusively out of shotgun formation. There will be a real adjustment period if the team that drafts him plans on playing in a traditional drop-back system. 

-A number of times his receivers literally had to stand there and wait for football to arrive on shorter intermediate routes. Those will be pick-sixes in the NFL. 

-Can take off and run but only averaged 3.0 yards per carry in his college career. Nobody will ever mistake Wilson with Randall Cunningham or Michael Vick. He is not a quarterback who will beat any teams in the NFL with his feet. Not remotely elusive.

-How NFL defenses will beat him: Play tight man coverage, bracket coverages, and force him to funnel throws to the middle of the field. Send heavy array of blitzes off the defense’s left side and take away his ability to roll out to his right, which he loves to do. Hit him hard early and often, bully him, talk a lot of trash and get under his skin. Dare him to respond. Take away fade inside the 10 — and take away his ability to run a play-action and to try to run it in.

Daniel Kelly is a former NFL scout with the New York Jets. He was hired on the regime which featured Bill Parcells, Bill Belichick, Scott Pioli, and Dick Haley. He currently writes for Sports Illustrated Detroit Lions and he is a contributing evaluator for Draft Diamonds. For more information about him visit his website at whateverittakesbook.com. He can be followed on Twitter @danielkellybook and his Facebook page is WHATEVER IT TAKES NFL TALK. 

https://www.nfldraftdiamonds.com/2021/03/zach-wilson-4/

hate when a QB has very domestic statistical seasons

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6 minutes ago, jgb said:

So you find these fans "stupid" and engaging in a "waste of time." Weren't you just excoriating me (falsely) for "telling Jet fans what to think?"

Its stupid to think you know what a HC or a QB is because youre butt hurt after a horrible loss

And its not the same as constantly telling us what Jets fans say of think every season,  

I didnt just excoriating you for "telling Jet fans what to think?" I said stop with the barrage of "Jets fans think or say" all the time.  Especially when your points are we're just like every other fanbase of a team that hasnt won in a while.  

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2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Its stupid to think you know what a HC or a QB is because youre butt hurt after a horrible loss

And its not the same as constantly telling us what Jets fans say of think every season,  

I didnt just excoriating you for "telling Jet fans what to think?" I said stop with the barrage of "Jets fans think or say" all the time.  Especially when your points are we're just like every other fanbase of a team that hasnt won in a while.  

Again, I think you have me confused with one of your absinthe-induced fever dreams.

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