The “rebuild” isn’t working

[SAR I]

15 hours ago, Ghost said:

Bro, we are two games in ???

On opening day 1997, Bill Parcells went to Seattle with the same 1-15 team that Rich Kotite had and annihilated the Seahawks 41-3.

If there were this "culture change" predicated on "all gas" we would be seeing it immediately.  Maybe not in W's but in effort, in execution, in attitude.  Saleh's Jets look no better than Gase's Jets or Bowles' Jets or the (late era) Ryan Jets.  Dumb mistakes, lack of accountability, stupid penalties, missed assignments, undisciplined play.

SAR I

[The Crusher]

20 hours ago, SAR I said:

EVERYTHING is Adam Gase's fault.

That's the platform that these people jumped on.  And now that it's abundantly clear that their GM savior isn't good at, you know, picking players, the excuse machine is going into overdrive.  Two years from now it'll be "but but but those were Saleh's players".  You can't make this stuff up.

The problem, dear friends, has always been the players.  The ones who play the games.  Our GM's sucked and still do.  And this guy is the worst one, ever, because he was grossly irresponsible, trading away the 5-6 good players he inherited, deliberately making us far worse for no reason other than his own vanity.  He has picked at the top of every round since he got here, he accumulated a ton of extra picks and cap space too, and he sucks at this.  My mother and a dartboard could have done better.

SAR I

Joe Douglas draft picks leave us all wanting? Absolutely! Joe Douglas traded away 5-6 good players he inherited? If you say so but honestly it’s not the ones he’s traded it’s the ones he drafted with the picks he got. He got rid of the right players IMO, but he he just isn’t hitting his picks. Hopefully this years draft pick start making progress this year and Becton comes back to be at least capable of playing a few games in a row.

At the end of the day nothing you are saying is incorrect just overplaying the traded away good players thing. I can’t help but think this would be even worse with Leo’s and Adams  contracts  intact and I do not see them helping us get wins. Sam will have to beat some good teams and bring his team back to win a couple games before  I even allow myself to here have that conversation. Robby, is the one Joe let Joe I would have kept. He got cute there and it but him in his fat ass. 

[The Crusher]

24 minutes ago, SAR I said:

On opening day 1997, Bill Parcells went to Seattle with the same 1-15 team that Rich Kotite had and annihilated the Seahawks 41-3.

If there were this "culture change" predicated on "all gas" we would be seeing it immediately.  Maybe not in W's but in effort, in execution, in attitude.  Saleh's Jets look no better than Gase's Jets or Bowles' Jets or the (late era) Ryan Jets.  Dumb mistakes, lack of accountability, stupid penalties, missed assignments, undisciplined play.

SAR I

Yeah, this is the most disappointing part for me. I didn’t expect this team to win much but I expected them to look much better coached and managed. I expected much better honestly! FREE DENZEL!

[JoJoTownsell1]

16 hours ago, Ghost said:

Bro, we are two games in ???

 

24 minutes ago, SAR I said:

On opening day 1997, Bill Parcells went to Seattle with the same 1-15 team that Rich Kotite had and annihilated the Seahawks 41-3.

If there were this "culture change" predicated on "all gas" we would be seeing it immediately.  Maybe not in W's but in effort, in execution, in attitude.  Saleh's Jets look no better than Gase's Jets or Bowles' Jets or the (late era) Ryan Jets.  Dumb mistakes, lack of accountability, stupid penalties, missed assignments, undisciplined play.

SAR I

You are both right. It is just 2 games in and we obviously need to give Saleh time, but watching these games the team looks no different than the last 2 years. We play non competitive games and we do not see progress from a rookie QB, in fact, we see him get worse from week 1 to week 2. 

I am relatively OK with being 0-2 but I did expect this team to be competitive late in games. Maybe have a lead once. So far we have been down 10-0 and 16-0 before scoring our first points. Would be nice to have a lead in a game this year before we are mathematically eliminated from playoff contention and start winning meaningless games in November. 

[NYJ37/12]

37 minutes ago, SAR I said:

On opening day 1997, Bill Parcells went to Seattle with the same 1-15 team that Rich Kotite had and annihilated the Seahawks 41-3.

If there were this "culture change" predicated on "all gas" we would be seeing it immediately.  Maybe not in W's but in effort, in execution, in attitude.  Saleh's Jets look no better than Gase's Jets or Bowles' Jets or the (late era) Ryan Jets.  Dumb mistakes, lack of accountability, stupid penalties, missed assignments, undisciplined play.

SAR I

You know I love ya brother, we are section mates but I think this is a bit harsh.  The 96' Jets were a talented team with a very bad coach.  The 20' Jets were not talented. Coach Parcells and coach Saleh are not equals in terms of walk in the building immediate respect types. Saleh needs three SB appearances with two wins first. 

I do see guys going all out but yes, they are missing assignments and last week had some dumb penalties. Some were also bad calls.  Lets see how the year unfolds.

See you next week

[joewilly12]

When an NFL team is in the "rebuild process" we should at least see competitive football we should see positives we should see better football week to week. So far none of the above has happened. 

[kevinc855]

24 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

 

You are both right. It is just 2 games in and we obviously need to give Saleh time, but watching these games the team looks no different than the last 2 years. We play non competitive games and we do not see progress from a rookie QB, in fact, we see him get worse from week 1 to week 2. 

I am relatively OK with being 0-2 but I did expect this team to be competitive late in games. Maybe have a lead once. So far we have been down 10-0 and 16-0 before scoring our first points. Would be nice to have a lead in a game this year before we are mathematically eliminated from playoff contention and start winning meaningless games in November. 

Yes, plus one on this. 

The most frustrating thing is we are not even in these games. There wasn't one moment in the last 2 games I thought maybe we win. That type of bad is not sustainable or excusable. Hoping Saleh fixes it fast. The NY media market will start feasting if we go winless into the bye. 

[SAR I]

33 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Joe Douglas draft picks leave us all wanting? Absolutely! Joe Douglas traded away 5-6 good players he inherited? If you say so but honestly it’s not the ones he’s traded it’s the ones he drafted with the picks he got. He got rid of the right players IMO, but he he just isn’t hitting his picks. Hopefully this years draft pick start making progress this year and Becton comes back to be at least capable of playing a few games in a row.

At the end of the day nothing you are saying is incorrect just overplaying the traded away good players thing. I can’t help but think this would be even worse with Leo’s and Adams  contracts  intact and I do not see them helping us get wins. Sam will have to beat some good teams and bring his team back to win a couple games before  I even allow myself to here have that conversation. Robby, is the one Joe let Joe I would have kept. He got cute there and it but him in his fat ass. 

What I know is that if we had the players we lost right now we would be 2-0 and feeling great instead of 0-2 and feeling like crap.

The concept of getting cheaper and rebuilding is predicated on using the money towards less expensive players who can perform at a similar level.  Joe Douglas has failed at this.  Miserably.  When you think of all the years of patience and sucking we suffered through to have the right to draft the likes of Jamal Adams, Leonard Williams, and Sam Darnold, and finding the likes of Robbie Anderson, we just threw away 3 draft classes and just drafted 2 awful draft classes.  It's unfathomable.

SAR I

[kmnj]

30 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

When an NFL team is in the "rebuild process" we should at least see competitive football we should see positives we should see better football week to week. So far none of the above has happened. 

our rebuild we get worse not better, our roster gets worse not better-then we are told it is part of the plan and we need to be patient. Joe has been on the jets payroll for three years now-each year has seen regression and players let go to be replaced by worse players.

I think any fan would be okay with incremental progress and showing signs of life. We dont have that  as you have noted.   We have nothing but excuses over and over again and people defending management and coaches both who are unproven at best.

I attended 300+ games in person and now I have no desire to go to a game for a variety of reasons but one of them is there is no entertainment value at all

[varjet]

3 minutes ago, SAR I said:

and finding the likes of Robbie Anderson, we just threw away 3 draft classes and just drafted 2 awful draft classes.  It's unfathomable.

SAR I

I don’t get the drafted 2 awful draft classes.  2020 looks awful.  2021 does not look awful, two games, in.

Wilson got good reviews game 1, and bombed game 2 against BB.  That is not awful.

AVT was the other way around, as was MC1.  That is not awful.

Elijah Moore looked brilliant in preseason and somehow needs to get traction.  Jury still out. 

The DBs and LBs have looked decent and played well.  They are doing the job they are supposed to do.  

I believe JD whiffed on the OL in particular and could have fine tuned his FA in 2021, but 2021 is not awful.

And the players JD got rid of from Maccagnan’s draft were not worth the money they received.  

[kmnj]

6 minutes ago, SAR I said:

What I know is that if we had the players we lost right now we would be 2-0 and feeling great instead of 0-2 and feeling like crap.

The concept of getting cheaper and rebuilding is predicated on using the money towards less expensive players who can perform at a similar level.  Joe Douglas has failed at this.  Miserably.  When you think of all the years of patience and sucking we suffered through to have the right to draft the likes of Jamal Adams, Leonard Williams, and Sam Darnold, and finding the likes of Robbie Anderson, we just threw away 3 draft classes and just drafted 2 awful draft classes.  It's unfathomable.

SAR I

Sar I feel your frustration and sadly the jets will break you like everybody else. In the past two years you were excited about them and exciting about your seats-both I understand but you now are living the same thing fans with 20+30+40 years of history with the Jets-two years back you could not understand that negative folks but now you are slowly seeing and feeling the pain

 

[SAR I]

31 minutes ago, NYJ37/12 said:

You know I love ya brother, we are section mates but I think this is a bit harsh.  The 96' Jets were a talented team with a very bad coach.  The 20' Jets were not talented. Coach Parcells and coach Saleh are not equals in terms of walk in the building immediate respect types. Saleh needs three SB appearances with two wins first. 

I do see guys going all out but yes, they are missing assignments and last week had some dumb penalties. Some were also bad calls.  Lets see how the year unfolds.

See you next week

If you put yourself back in '97, we didn't know that the youngsters on the Kotite team that Parcells inherited were going to be any good, it was Parcells who brought that out in them.  Starting in his very first game.  Great coaches and culture-changers can do that.  They can get heretofore moribund players to get over their skis.

And I am not saying Saleh should have won either of these first two games, but we got annihilated, it wasn't even close, we were trailing badly in both games and meekly put up garbage points.  And players we expected to flash-  Moore, Quinnen, Carter, AVT, Becton, Mims, they look no different than last year or the guys who preceded them.

What I know is that I was feeling good about the rebuild in late 2019 and 2020 and 2021 shouldn't be going backwards.  This team was significantly gutted by Maccagnan who had the same idea as Douglas and Douglas has done nothing with the head start he was given.  2 drafts and 2.5 FA periods is more than enough to have gotten this team to show more fight in them then they have in the last two weeks.  Something is wrong.

See you next Sunday.  That is, if I'm not apple picking instead of watching Derrick Henry set the NFL record for most all-purpose yards in a single NFL game.

SAR I

 

[SAR I]

40 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

When an NFL team is in the "rebuild process" we should at least see competitive football we should see positives we should see better football week to week. So far none of the above has happened. 

Exactly.

Give me Michael Carter with 100 yards and 2 TD's last week in a loss and I'm good.

Give me Zach Wilson with 300 yards and 1 TD last week in a loss and I'm good.

Give me Quinnen Williams with 5 pressures and 2 sacks last week in a loss and I'm good.

We are losing and no one is flashing and no one seems to be responding to Robert Saleh's "all gas no brake".  Instead, they seem to be comfortably relaxed to Joe Douglas' "the goal is to get better".

SAR I

[Claymation]

42 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

When an NFL team is in the "rebuild process" we should at least see competitive football we should see positives we should see better football week to week. So far none of the above has happened. 

How is the defense playing? Is it better, worse or the same as last year?

If it is better is that a positive?

 

[kevinc855]

6 minutes ago, SAR I said:

comfortably relaxed to Joe Douglas' "the goal is to get better".

This statement infuriated me. How as a leader of an organization do you set the bar so low. 

There is no confidence or lets go win a superbowl swagger. Just "get better" 

Unbelievable 

[Claymation]

5 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Exactly.

Give me Michael Carter with 100 yards and 2 TD's last week in a loss and I'm good.

Give me Zach Wilson with 300 yards and 1 TD last week in a loss and I'm good.

We are losing and no one is flashing and no one seems to be responding to Robert Saleh's "all gas no brake".  Instead, they seem to be comfortably relaxed to Joe Douglas' "the goal is to get better".

SAR I

Zach gave you 250+ and 2 TDs in the 1st week.

He was careless with the ball last week. It happens. He is also a rookie, rookies make dumb mistakes.

[phill1c]

On 9/21/2021 at 5:59 PM, kevinc855 said:

I’m not freaking about about Zach. But I’m also not going to chalk his poor choices and throws up to some great defensive scheme.

He needs to learn check downs 

And he will. I think he will be better as he gains experience. You know, like that other loser, Sam Darnold.

[SAR I]

Just now, Claymation said:

Zach gave you 250+ and 2 TDs in the 1st week.

It was garbage time against a team with a 16 point lead at home who knew the game was in the bag.

QB is a tough job and my expectations for Zach are very different than, say, Quinnen (not a rookie), AVT (not a skill position), Moore (find a way to get open), Mims (find a way to get on the field), and on and on.

This team looks like Ryan/Bowles/Gase.  It looks like more of same.  When Torre came to the Yankees, instant culture change.  When Keenan came to the Rangers, instant culture change.  When Parcells came to the Jets, instant culture change.  That's what should be happening now.  No, not necessarily wins.  But attitude, execution, discipline, passion, heart.  

SAR I

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

56 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

When an NFL team is in the "rebuild process" we should at least see competitive football we should see positives we should see better football week to week. So far none of the above has happened. 

There has been one single solitary "week to week" so far.  So every NFL team improves week to week?  If the Jets beat Denver, should Denver fans scream for their CS and GM to be fired because they did not get better from week to week. With 32 teams playing 16 games a week, how exactly does this week to week improvement work?  

[The Crusher]

29 minutes ago, SAR I said:

What I know is that if we had the players we lost right now we would be 2-0 and feeling great instead of 0-2 and feeling like crap.

The concept of getting cheaper and rebuilding is predicated on using the money towards less expensive players who can perform at a similar level.  Joe Douglas has failed at this.  Miserably.  When you think of all the years of patience and sucking we suffered through to have the right to draft the likes of Jamal Adams, Leonard Williams, and Sam Darnold, and finding the likes of Robbie Anderson, we just threw away 3 draft classes and just drafted 2 awful draft classes.  It's unfathomable.

SAR I

Paying Jamal and Leo long term might kinda help is get to 2-0? Let’s see what Sam does when he plays a team  that can score and force him to play from behind. I guess if 2-0 is your ultimate goal? You and I will look at Jamal and Leo are both on high paid cruise control and pretty sure they stay there. So if you wanted to pay them and celebrate 2-0 rocking your Trumaine Johnson jersey then more power to you. Just because Joe Douglas sucks at drafting doesn’t mean keeping those two are a good idea. 

[jamesr]

53 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

When an NFL team is in the "rebuild process" we should at least see competitive football we should see positives we should see better football week to week. So far none of the above has happened. 

Our O line looked far better Wk 2 vs. Wk 1. Our running game looked night and day Wk 2 vs. Wk 1. Our D played better Wk 2 vs. Wk 1.

Our QB played far, far worse Wk 2 vs. Wk 1. Our WRs probably played worse Wk 2 vs. Wk 1.

Some of this may have been due to the opponent and how they were defending us / attacking us etc, some may have been due to the home venue (both good and bad aspects of that). But some may have been due to watching Wk 1 tape and working on things ahead of Wk 2.

If we can have Wk 2 OL / RB / D and Wk 1  QB / WR, we could give Denver a tough game. If we get Wk 2 QB / WR and Wk 1 OL / RB / D then we'll stink. Things are likely to be a bit Jekyll & Hyde for a while but we should see the real team emerge ... just hope it's All Jekyll, No Hyde when it does.

[kevinc855]

1 minute ago, The Crusher said:

Paying Jamal and Leo long term might kinda help is get to 2-0? Let’s see what Sam does when he plays a team  that can score and force him to play from behind. I guess if 2-0 is your ultimate goal? You and I will look at Jamal and Leo are both on high paid cruise control and pretty sure they stay there. So if you wanted to pay them and celebrate 2-0 rocking your Trumaine Johnson jersey then more power to you. Just because Joe Douglas sucks at drafting doesn’t mean keeping those two are a good idea. 

My gripe is when you cut your roster of talent for picks because you dont want to pay them you need to hit on your picks. 

We picked Ashyton Davis with the Leo pick. So we traded Leo for a guy who cant get on the field. I like to have that back thank you.

That's why I always said this approach to the rebuild is extremely RISKY. If you aren't hitting on picks and "value" FA signings (Hi Perriman) your team is going to be badddd

[UntouchableCrew]

1 hour ago, SAR I said:

  Saleh's Jets look no better than Gase's Jets

See, I just don't think this is true at all.

They're still bad, but they look very different to me.

[The Crusher]

7 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

My gripe is when you cut your roster of talent for picks because you dont want to pay them you need to hit on your picks. 

We picked Ashyton Davis with the Leo pick. So we traded Leo for a guy who cant get on the field. I like to have that back thank you.

That's why I always said this approach to the rebuild is extremely RISKY. If you aren't hitting on picks and "value" FA signings (Hi Perriman) your team is going to be badddd

100% agreed. But, keeping Jamal and Leo at those contracts wasn’t helping this team do anything but be worse longer. Jamal just seems expensive for 14 tackles in two games. Leo also seems  a bit out priced for 4 tackles in two games as well. 

[kevinc855]

1 minute ago, UntouchableCrew said:

See, I just don't think this is true at all.

They're still bad, but they look very different to me.

How? Sloppy QB play. Uncreative play calling. Down by double digits early in both games? 

I will say the defense looks slightly better. But man, its kinda bad right now. 

[chirorob]

1 hour ago, The Crusher said:

Joe Douglas draft picks leave us all wanting? Absolutely! Joe Douglas traded away 5-6 good players he inherited? If you say so but honestly it’s not the ones he’s traded it’s the ones he drafted with the picks he got. He got rid of the right players IMO, but he he just isn’t hitting his picks. Hopefully this years draft pick start making progress this year and Becton comes back to be at least capable of playing a few games in a row.

At the end of the day nothing you are saying is incorrect just overplaying the traded away good players thing. I can’t help but think this would be even worse with Leo’s and Adams  contracts  intact and I do not see them helping us get wins. Sam will have to beat some good teams and bring his team back to win a couple games before  I even allow myself to here have that conversation. Robby, is the one Joe let Joe I would have kept. He got cute there and it but him in his fat ass. 

This team would be much worse off with Leo and Adam's contracts, not to mention the lack of picks for Adams.

Leo is a guy who plays to get paid, and stops playing.  Didn't we just get out of a bad contract given to a DE who stopped playing right after he got paid?   And Adams?   I'm sorry, but grossly over paying for a blitzing safety is not a solid football move.

[Claymation]

8 minutes ago, SAR I said:

It was garbage time against a team with a 16 point lead at home who knew the game was in the bag.

QB is a tough job and my expectations for Zach are very different than, say, Quinnen (not a rookie), AVT (not a skill position), Moore (find a way to get open), Mims (find a way to get on the field), and on and on.

This team looks like Ryan/Bowles/Gase.  It looks like more of same.  When Torre came to the Yankees, instant culture change.  When Keenan came to the Rangers, instant culture change.  When Parcells came to the Jets, instant culture change.  That's what should be happening now.  No, not necessarily wins.  But attitude, execution, discipline, passion, heart.  

SAR I

They were a defensive stop from having a chance to win the game. But by all means continue with this narrative.

This team has only played two games - 2.

I don't give a flying eff what Parcell's did, that was almost 25 years ago. You don't want to be patient, don't be. But tell this forum you would be happy with a 300 yard 1 TD performance and get something close to that in the 1st game and then cry that it was garbage time. 

Also, Torre? The team was already good because of Stick Michaels. For the love of all things holy.

[The Crusher]

Just now, chirorob said:

This team would be much worse off with Leo and Adam's contracts, not to mention the lack of picks for Adams.

Leo is a guy who plays to get paid, and stops playing.  Didn't we just get out of a bad contract given to a DE who stopped playing right after he got paid?   And Adams?   I'm sorry, but grossly over paying for a blitzing safety is not a solid football move.

You don’t think Leo’s 4 tackles in 2 games wouldn’t launch us from 10th best defense to at least 9th best?  I mean in 2 games Jamal has no sacks, but those 14 tackles were the highest energy tackles I’ve seen in a bit. 

[varjet]

17 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

My gripe is when you cut your roster of talent for picks because you dont want to pay them you need to hit on your picks. 

We picked Ashyton Davis with the Leo pick. So we traded Leo for a guy who cant get on the field. I like to have that back thank you.

That's why I always said this approach to the rebuild is extremely RISKY. If you aren't hitting on picks and "value" FA signings (Hi Perriman) your team is going to be badddd

Jamal picks were used for AVT, and if he turns out to be good, that will be worth it.

The Leo pick should have been used for an OL. 

[kevinc855]

4 minutes ago, varjet said:

Jamal picks were used for AVT, and if he turns out to be good, that will be worth it.

The Leo pick should have been used for an OL. 

Sure, no dispute on that. JA trade may work out. We will see

The Leo trade certainly did not. 

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

54 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Exactly.

Give me Michael Carter with 100 yards and 2 TD's last week in a loss and I'm good.

Give me Zach Wilson with 300 yards and 1 TD last week in a loss and I'm good.

Give me Quinnen Williams with 5 pressures and 2 sacks last week in a loss and I'm good.

We are losing and no one is flashing and no one seems to be responding to Robert Saleh's "all gas no brake".  Instead, they seem to be comfortably relaxed to Joe Douglas' "the goal is to get better".

SAR I

Have you tried watching the game? You would have noticed the flashes.

[Joe W. Namath]

I have never felt better about the future of this team.  

Thank you Joe Douglas!  Thank you!!

[phill1c]

8 minutes ago, varjet said:

Jamal picks were used for AVT, and if he turns out to be good, that will be worth it.

The Leo pick should have been used for an OL. 

Here's my issue: 

Leo is doing great ON THE GIANTS. He was very average here. So, to get anything for an average guy you overdrafted (if performance is the justification for draft position). Put Leo somewhere else and he becomes average again.

Football is a team sport. Because a guy can't get on the field here or performs badly here doesn't automatically mean he's not good. It means that he didn't perform here, where A LOT of players underperform: Demario Davis, Leonard Williams, Danny Woodhead, James Farrior.

And you bring in a guy like Mosely, for example, and you get, pffft for two years. Is he a bad player or is your organization sh!tty? Can an organization that has an idiot for a coach (Gase) ever develop anything decent, teamwise or player wise?

It's going to take a while to get the franchise back to competing. At this point, it's about gaining confidence in each other and gaining reps so that playing is instinctual. that can only be accomplished with time, and patience.

[FootballLove]

After burning our top 6 picks in 2021 on Offense, JD could switch gears in 2022 and draft D. That would essentially put the same offense on the field next year as this year. Scary.

[Icer]

9 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

Sure, no dispute on that. JA trade may work out. We will see

The Leo trade certainly did not. 

The Leo trade worked out because you dont want to pay average players 20 million dollars a year. Getting anything back and avoiding that foolish extension is a win in it of itself. Regardless of Ashtyn Davis being injured