The "phone booth" offense seems to be killing Zach Wilson. Was it really a staple in San Francsico?

[jetscrazey]

In Saleh's interview with Michael Kay today he acknowledged LaFleur's system is built on tight formations, with receivers inside the numbers and working in high traffic areas "in a phone booth."  Watching the tape I rarely see a Jets WR split out at the numbers.  The receivers are mostly standing right next to the OL.  This bunches 15-16 players in a tight area, which inevitably makes it harder to run and makes the passing windows very narrow for a rookie QB.  I really question the merit of building an entire system around these tight formations.  Clearly none of the players seem all that comfortable trying to execute it.  This is what we mean when we say the coaches are not putting the players in position for success.  Why put this stress on Wilson?

Why not split the WRs out wide, where you can get them in 1 on 1 matchups vertically, where guys like Corey Davis and Mims can use their size to catch back-shoulder, and let Moore operate in more space over the middle?  Let Wilson run 3 step drops with larger passing windows.

I think Saleh has become so obsessed with the idea of culture change and is maybe a little apprehensive about his offensive expertise, so he is being very rigid with "the system" and making everyone adapt to it for the sole reason of "it worked elsewhere."  LaFleur too.  They have this bias and it's preventing them from taking a step back and realizing they have to work with the talent they have.

Is this really what Kyle Shanahan did in SF?  Tight formations all the time?  It's not what I remember TBH but I could be wrong.

[Nixhead]

Whatever the system in San Fran was it should of been based on the players talents - unlike what's going on here. If this system was gonna work there should be some indications - I dont see any. Jets are making things easy on opposing defenses and our coaches refuse to change up. Its gonna be a long season.

[Atlantajet333]

SF version has more motion and jet sweeps plus they utilize the TE's, something that we either don't have or do. Our TE's are crummy blockers, something that must be addressed in the next off season.

[jetspenguin]

In Saleh's interview with Michael Kay today he acknowledged LaFleur's system is built on tight formations, with receivers inside the numbers and working in high traffic areas "in a phone booth."  Watching the tape I rarely see a Jets WR split out at the numbers.  The receivers are mostly standing right next to the OL.  This bunches 15-16 players in a tight area, which inevitably makes it harder to run and makes the passing windows very narrow for a rookie QB.  I really question the merit of building an entire system around these tight formations.  Clearly none of the players seem all that comfortable trying to execute it.  This is what we mean when we say the coaches are not putting the players in position for success.  Why put this stress on Wilson?
Why not split the WRs out wide, where you can get them in 1 on 1 matchups vertically, where guys like Corey Davis and Mims can use their size to catch back-shoulder, and let Moore operate in more space over the middle?  Let Wilson run 3 step drops with larger passing windows.
I think Saleh has become so obsessed with the idea of culture change and is maybe a little apprehensive about his offensive expertise, so he is being very rigid with "the system" and making everyone adapt to it for the sole reason of "it worked elsewhere."  LaFleur too.  They have this bias and it's preventing them from taking a step back and realizing they have to work with the talent they have.
Is this really what Kyle Shanahan did in SF?  Tight formations all the time?  It's not what I remember TBH but I could be wrong.

Having plays for Davis and Mims doesn't matter.

Davis can't catch
Mims can't see the field from his livingroom

Sent from the NY Jets /Zack Wilson Suicide Watch desk.

[peebag]

1 hour ago, Atlantajet333 said:

SF version has more motion and jet sweeps plus they utilize the TE's, something that we either don't have or do. Our TE's are crummy blockers, something that must be addressed in the next off season.

 

"Must be addressed in the next off season"  The New York Jets team motto

[rtnelson]

The defenses aren't doing all that much to confuse Zach.  Rushing 4 and man cover 2.  We don't send enough receivers in routes, so they always have safety help.  Our receivers aren't good enough to get open on a 3 step against man.  And our OLine isn't good enough to hold until a guy can get open in longer developing routes.

This offense is bad.  It's not just Zach, it's the offense as a whole.  Let's just hope it's the defenses we have been playing and not the overall ineptitude, but I'm pretty sure it's just bad.

[Irish Jet]

I was watching and a play stood out to me where we just had a bunch of guys within 10 yards absolutely surrounded by defenders. I seen the Jets reddit page had already highlighted it...

What the actual f*ck is this? Talk about not giving a QB a chance. How in the hell could that have ever resulted in a first down?

[Jets Things]

[KO91]

4 hours ago, Atlantajet333 said:

SF version has more motion and jet sweeps plus they utilize the TE's, something that we either don't have or do. Our TE's are crummy blockers, something that must be addressed in the next off season.

This 100 percent correct. The strength of the offense is its WR depth. They should not be running so many two TE sets where they only get 2 WRs on the field. 

[BP]

Playing to a system and not to the strengths of your players is a recipe for failure. Here we go again.

[Dunnie]

This team should run a basic offense until we have the players to support whatever the **** a 'phonebooth offense' is.

Install it 2 plays a week so next year Zach is comfortable and we have more appropriate talent.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[Uncle Nicco]

SF has two offensive geniuses running their scheme in Shanahan and Mike McDaniel. 

Salah and LaFleur are naive enough to think that it’s simply a matter of copying the “scheme” because it’s “proven” to be successful 

No, idiots, you need to be able to adapt your scheme to your personal. You need to be able to game plan your scheme against the defenses you are going against. You need to be able to use protections that your OL can actually excecute. You need to be able to call plays to make the game easier for your young QB. 
 

just because you know the best computer programming language doesn’t automatically make you able to create great software 

[Uncle Nicco]

1 hour ago, KO91 said:

This 100 percent correct. The strength of the offense is its WR depth. They should not be running so many two TE sets where they only get 2 WRs on the field. 

We need the TE on the field to help Zach stay alive. The difference is that SF has Kittle and Jueyzeck to fill those roles. Not to mention their receivers and backs have absolute rockets up their ass so they can tear the field and get open from a bunch formation. Night and ******* day.

[JustInFudge]

2 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

I was watching and a play stood out to me where we just had a bunch of guys within 10 yards absolutely surrounded by defenders. I seen the Jets reddit page had already highlighted it...

What the actual f*ck is this? Talk about not giving a QB a chance. How in the hell could that have ever resulted in a first down?

Someone else showed this play in another thread and I think this play perfectly displays the questionable scheme and Zach's struggles.

Yes, this design is bad but Corey Davis is open.  Look at stills 2 and 3 (you can see him getting ready to throw on 3).  That is a very easy 10 yard throw, ball should be out in 2 seconds to his favorite target and should be a completion.   The first receiver in this set is covered, Davis has a LB'er playing 7 yards off him and then the 3 receiver is doubled.  The pocket is perfect, Zach doesnt pull the trigger, maybe Davis gets to the 35, maybe he doesnt, but Zach doest give him a chance because he pulls the ball down and is sacked.  

So it's a triple doozy, terrible play design, terrible receivers and a QB scared to throw the ball.

 

[Augustiniak]

13 minutes ago, Pichula said:

SF has two offensive geniuses running their scheme in Shanahan and Mike McDaniel. 

Salah and LaFleur are naive enough to think that it’s simply a matter of copying the “scheme” because it’s “proven” to be successful 

No, idiots, you need to be able to adapt your scheme to your personal. You need to be able to game plan your scheme against the defenses you are going against. You need to be able to use protections that your OL can actually excecute. You need to be able to call plays to make the game easier for your young QB. 
 

just because you know the best computer programming language doesn’t automatically make you able to create great software 

I get the feeling that saleh is the joe judge version of belichick’s disciple.  They think you copy everything and you have success.  

[Augustiniak]

Just now, JiFapono said:

Someone else showed this play in another thread and I think this play perfectly displays the questionable scheme and Zach's struggles.

Yes, this design is bad but Corey Davis is open.  Look at stills 2 and 3 (you can see him getting ready to throw on 3).  That is a very easy 10 yard throw, ball should be out in 2 seconds to his favorite target and should be a completion.   The first receiver in this set is covered, Davis has a LB'er playing 7 yards off him and then the 3 receiver is doubled.  The pocket is perfect, Zach doesnt pull the trigger, maybe Davis gets to the 35, maybe he doesnt, but Zach doest give him a chance because he pulls the ball down and is sacked.  

So it's a triple doozy, terrible play design, terrible receivers and a QB scared to throw the ball.

 

The problem is that there’s so many defenders in the middle of the field, wilson probably hesitated.  Watch the BYU games and guys are running all over the field leaving him with 1 on 1 matchups to exploit.  Like with mims.

[LionelRichie]

3 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

I was watching and a play stood out to me where we just had a bunch of guys within 10 yards absolutely surrounded by defenders. I seen the Jets reddit page had already highlighted it...

What the actual f*ck is this? Talk about not giving a QB a chance. How in the hell could that have ever resulted in a first down?

That play looks so much different when Kittle runs it 

[JustInFudge]

Just now, Augustiniak said:

The problem is that there’s so many defenders in the middle of the field, wilson probably hesitated.  Watch the BYU games and guys are running all over the field leaving him with 1 on 1 matchups to exploit.  Like with mims.

I understand and I get what he's comfortable with but that's really not a complex play, not a good one but not complex and I'm confident, that's not the first time he's ever run the play.  Again, the design is not good but the play was there.  Windows are tight in the NFL and that really wasnt that tight of one.  It was a 3 step drop, the second that last foot drops the ball should be out...but Wilson has terrible pocket presence and mechanics.  When you watch it full speed, when the 3rd foot drops and he's still shuffling his feet backward out of the pocket, which leads to him not getting rid of the ball and a sack moments later....because that's the NFL.  You have to get the ball out and Zach had a chance to on that play.  

 

[Dunnie]

Someone else showed this play in another thread and I think this play perfectly displays the questionable scheme and Zach's struggles.
Yes, this design is bad but Corey Davis is open.  Look at stills 2 and 3 (you can see him getting ready to throw on 3).  That is a very easy 10 yard throw, ball should be out in 2 seconds to his favorite target and should be a completion.   The first receiver in this set is covered, Davis has a LB'er playing 7 yards off him and then the 3 receiver is doubled.  The pocket is perfect, Zach doesnt pull the trigger, maybe Davis gets to the 35, maybe he doesnt, but Zach doest give him a chance because he pulls the ball down and is sacked.  
So it's a triple doozy, terrible play design, terrible receivers and a QB scared to throw the ball.
 

Yea ... it was a sh*t play.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[Uncle Nicco]

11 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Someone else showed this play in another thread and I think this play perfectly displays the questionable scheme and Zach's struggles.

Yes, this design is bad but Corey Davis is open.  Look at stills 2 and 3 (you can see him getting ready to throw on 3).  That is a very easy 10 yard throw, ball should be out in 2 seconds to his favorite target and should be a completion.   The first receiver in this set is covered, Davis has a LB'er playing 7 yards off him and then the 3 receiver is doubled.  The pocket is perfect, Zach doesnt pull the trigger, maybe Davis gets to the 35, maybe he doesnt, but Zach doest give him a chance because he pulls the ball down and is sacked.  

So it's a triple doozy, terrible play design, terrible receivers and a QB scared to throw the ball.

 

Yes when you freeze frame the play with a magnifying glass it looks like he has a small window to throw to Davis. That is a ridiculous way to play football. In real time that is absolute cluster****. Also if Davis isn’t the first read on that play it’s not possible to even get to him because there is a free rusher down the middle. 
 

Believe it or not if the OL can protect on this play I think it’s a TD because berrios cuts up field and is wide open with daylight 

 

[Augustiniak]

12 minutes ago, Pichula said:

Yes when you freeze frame the play with a magnifying glass it looks like he has a small window to throw to Davis. That is a ridiculous way to play football. In real time that is absolute cluster****. Also if Davis isn’t the first read on that play it’s not possible to even get to him because there is a free rusher down the middle. 
 

Believe it or not if the OL can protect on this play I think it’s a TD because berrios cuts up field and is wide open with daylight 

 

Sadly, i think this type of flawed play design is why they’re not playing mims.  They think the Elijah moore types are better suited for the short quick cut routes while someone like mims is a long strider who can win the 1 on 1 battles outside.  So instead of using mims to exploit mismatches, they throw in Jeff smith, berrios and even cole who don’t get the separation and lead to situations like this.  But in practice, saleh and lafleur watch the wrs and love how these lesser guys run routes.  I think they’re only starting to realize that it does not translate well to the actual games or to scoring.  

[Integrity28]

LaFleur has only known and worked in one offensive system. 

Similar to Mangini when we hired him.

This is the cost of doing business when you hire kids with limited resumes.

Coaching hires need a scheme diverse track record if they’re going to tailor what they design to the talent they have. This is the #1 reason our offense set is a sh*t show. LaFleur only has the experience abs ability to view our players thru one lens.

As such, Saleh, being an inexperienced HC also doesn’t have the wherewithal to compensate for LaFleus inexperience.

[The Crusher]

Hmmmm, so he’s not perfect for this system? These damn coaches  need to make up their damn minds honestly. 

[Integrity28]

2 hours ago, BP said:

Playing to a system and not to the strengths of your players is a recipe for failure. Here we go again.

This.

[Uncle Nicco]

1 minute ago, Integrity28 said:

LaFleur has only known and worked in one offensive system. 

Similar to Mangini when we hired him.

This is the cost of doing business when you hire kids with limited resumes.

Coaching hires need a scheme diverse track record if they’re going to tailor what they design to the talent they have. This is the #1 reason our offense set is a sh*t show. LaFleur only has the experience abs ability to view our players thru one lens.

As such, Saleh, being an inexperienced HC also doesn’t have the wherewithal to compensate for LaFleus inexperience.

Saleh is equally as inexperienced on the defensive side 

[Integrity28]

Just now, The Crusher said:

Hmmmm, so he’s not perfect for this system? These damn coaches  need to make up their damn minds honestly. 

This is not a good implementation of the Shanny system. Like Mangini pretending to bring the Pats defense here.

LaFleur was a WR coach, right? He has no experience designing an offense.

He’s only 34. He probably still uses a Verizon family share plan with his parents.

[Sammybighead]

2 hours ago, BP said:

Playing to a system and not to the strengths of your players is a recipe for failure. Here we go again.

We were told by this coaching staff they would build a system to highlight player strengths.

If you can’t score 3 weeks in, you’re not doing a good job highlighting strengths and something needs to change

[Integrity28]

5 minutes ago, Pichula said:

Saleh is equally as inexperienced on the defensive side 

Not equally. Plus,His DC hire was at least complementary. The D isn’t a huge concern, no defense does well when the time of possession disparity looks like this.

Saleh should be learning to be a HC, instead he’s 3-weeks in realizing he has to either fire a friend or keep shielding him and hurting his own credibility in the process.

[The Crusher]

8 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

This is not a good implementation of the Shanny system. Like Mangini pretending to bring the Pats defense here.

LaFleur was a WR coach, right? He has no experience designing an offense.

He’s only 34. He probably still uses a Verizon family share plan with his parents.

Haha, ummmm, yeah. 

[sec101row23]

16 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

LaFleur has only known and worked in one offensive system. 

Similar to Mangini when we hired him.

This is the cost of doing business when you hire kids with limited resumes.

Coaching hires need a scheme diverse track record if they’re going to tailor what they design to the talent they have. This is the #1 reason our offense set is a sh*t show. LaFleur only has the experience abs ability to view our players thru one lens.

As such, Saleh, being an inexperienced HC also doesn’t have the wherewithal to compensate for LaFleus inexperience.

The “system” isn’t nearly as rigid as some people are making it out to be.  The “system” when Shanahan was at Atlanta looked different than the one he has in San Francisco.  Shanahan, like any competent coach would, tweaks and modifies it to his current personnel.  
 

Where you make a good point is that LaFleur may only be looking at this through the San Fran lens.   Hopefully he starts watching some Shanahan tape from his tenure in Atlanta.  That group is a little closer to the type of personnel the Jets currently have.

 

 Either way, baby LaFleur needs to totally re-examine his use of the current personnel because it’s dysfunctional right now.  His personnel groupings are poor and IMO, there are better options available to him. 

[FidelioJet]

30 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Sadly, i think this type of flawed play design is why they’re not playing mims.  They think the Elijah moore types are better suited for the short quick cut routes while someone like mims is a long strider who can win the 1 on 1 battles outside.  So instead of using mims to exploit mismatches, they throw in Jeff smith, berrios and even cole who don’t get the separation and lead to situations like this.  But in practice, saleh and lafleur watch the wrs and love how these lesser guys run routes.  I think they’re only starting to realize that it does not translate well to the actual games or to scoring.  

You really hate to think this is true.  That men that have been around this game their entire lives and are professionals...

But, based on what's going on, your observation is the most logical conclusion.

[Chrebetfan80]

3 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

I was watching and a play stood out to me where we just had a bunch of guys within 10 yards absolutely surrounded by defenders. I seen the Jets reddit page had already highlighted it...

What the actual f*ck is this? Talk about not giving a QB a chance. How in the hell could that have ever resulted in a first down?

I think I know the concept, but wrs are doing an absolute sh*t job running it. 

 

Point man of the bunch should be running a shallow,  outside guy should be running the over/drag however you tag it in your offense, then the inside guy should be on a line at the safety looking to bend that to the opposite numbers deep.  

Problem is everyone track is way off to start the play and instead of getting on their proper track and beating the man coverage across the field, they all end up in the same space and start to adjust late as you can see in slide 5. 

I could be wrong and the play design may be bad, but if it is what I'm thinking it is, its fine design just piss poor execution. 

[Integrity28]

49 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

The “system” isn’t nearly as rigid as some people are making it out to be.  The “system” when Shanahan was at Atlanta looked different than the one he has in San Francisco.  Shanahan, like any competent coach would, tweaks and modifies it to his current personnel.  
 

Where you make a good point is that LaFleur may only be looking at this through the San Fran lens.   Hopefully he starts watching some Shanahan tape from his tenure in Atlanta.  That group is a little closer to the type of personnel the Jets currently have.

 

 Either way, baby LaFleur needs to totally re-examine his use of the current personnel because it’s dysfunctional right now.  His personnel groupings are poor and IMO, there are better options available to him. 

I think we’re saying similar things in different ways, obviously me with more style. ?

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, Pichula said:

Yes when you freeze frame the play with a magnifying glass it looks like he has a small window to throw to Davis. That is a ridiculous way to play football. In real time that is absolute cluster****. Also if Davis isn’t the first read on that play it’s not possible to even get to him because there is a free rusher down the middle. 
 

Believe it or not if the OL can protect on this play I think it’s a TD because berrios cuts up field and is wide open with daylight 

 

That's the NFL, amigo.  Not sure what else to tell you.  The play was designed for Zach to throw ball immediately when his foot drops on his 3rd step and he didnt, so the play was doomed and he was sacked.  He struggles with this badly.  JT O'Sullivan points it out in almost all of his breakdowns, Zach footwork is atrocious. He doent stop his drops, he just keeps fading.  That was not an impossible window at all.  He threw balls successfully into much tighter coverage.  There wasnt a free rusher down the middle until Zach pulled the ball down, which should never have happened because the ball should have been out.  Berrios breaking away?  That's not the call.  Again, look at the still, he was ready to throw it, Davis was clearly open and he hesitated and pulled the ball down and got sacked.. 

Look, I know everyone has to find the singular blame in every situation but as I said in my original post; that play is a perfect summary of sh*tty design, sh*tty QB, sh*tty WR's.   At all symptomatic of each other.

 

[Uncle Nicco]

22 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

That's the NFL, amigo.  Not sure what else to tell you.  The play was designed for Zach to throw ball immediately when his foot drops on his 3rd step and he didnt, so the play was doomed and he was sacked.  He struggles with this badly.  JT O'Sullivan points it out in almost all of his breakdowns, Zach footwork is atrocious. He doent stop his drops, he just keeps fading.  That was not an impossible window at all.  He threw balls successfully into much tighter coverage.  There wasnt a free rusher down the middle until Zach pulled the ball down, which should never have happened because the ball should have been out.  Berrios breaking away?  That's not the call.  Again, look at the still, he was ready to throw it, Davis was clearly open and he hesitated and pulled the ball down and got sacked.. 

Look, I know everyone has to find the singular blame in every situation but as I said in my original post; that play is a perfect summary of sh*tty design, sh*tty QB, sh*tty WR's.   At all symptomatic of each other.

 

How do you know what the call is? I see three receivers well behind the line, even if Davis catches the ball in am not sure he gets the first. Lastly, if Davis wasn’t the primary on that play your point is irrelevant 

here is another view, you really think Davis gets to the first down marker? That defender has good position