Belichick without Brady...

[rangerous]

10 hours ago, nyjunc said:

The Browns made the AFC Championship Game 3 times in the 5 years before Belichick, they won a Super Bowl as the Ravens 5 years after Belichick- all with that same bad owner.

Bernie Kosar was 28 years old when Belichick took over.

 

kosar was also quite finished as a qb.  his arm, never great, was shot.  as for the owner, he created a whole lot of team turmoil with his moving to baltimore.  as i recall it wasn't pretty.  and then marchibroda won 4, 4 and 6 before getting launched for billick.

[rangerous]

5 hours ago, RevisIsland610 said:

Last 2 years he's 8-12 without Brady and his record all time without Brady is below .500. Brady has always been the reason he's going to HOF. 

like i said we'll see.  he's pretty much free of any ties to those brady teams.  now he has a chance to win without those guys.  it'll be interesting because we never did see what lombardi could do after moving from green bay to washington.

[Dunnie]

The comparison was to show how bad the "number of titles" argument is, which it is. 
You're saying Brady is/was a better QB at his peak than Mahomes, which is patently absurd. Brady could only dream about making some of the throws Mahomes can. That's a fact. 
The fact one has one title and the other has seven doesn't mean Brady is or was a better QB than Mahomes, just means one has had the greatest coach of all time in his corner for most of his career, and then got to hand pick a team laden with talent where he could go to after his Pats career finished. 

Time will tell if Maholmes is in the running ... hes off to a great srart ... but there is a long road ahead for the kid.

Currently Maholmes is a spermatazoa in the conversation.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[Dunnie]

Peyton changed the way the game was played though, Brady didn't. 
Brady was made into Brady by Belichick, there's a reason he was picked in the 6th round. In 2007 he had arguably the greatest roster ever assembled to play with but couldn't close the deal. 
I'm not saying he isn't great, inarguably he is, IMO he isn't the GOAT. 

Lol your making me expurgate coffee from my nasal passages this morning ... you must be trolling on an early Tuesday.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[isired]

It was also raining all game and Brady was missing wide open receivers

Brady's not usually too bad in the elements. Career in precipitation (includes Sunday night's 70.8 QBR / 0 TD etc.):

[Albaniajet]

2 hours ago, PLO said:

Titles isn't a good argument though. Never has been, never will be. 

Name another stat where Brady isn’t at the top or near the top all time for QB?  I’m having a difficult time of finding one

[nyjunc]

12 hours ago, isired said:

 

They were 4-4 and tied for 1st in the AFC Central with Pittsburgh when Modell told the team, the night before a divisional home game vs the Oilers. I don't know who knew what before then. Ozzie Newsome is the only one that I recall saying he k ew before Modell told the team. It was publicly announced on Nov 8.

I'm not aware he told the team before that game, is there any links for that?  Either way after the good start they were struggling big time before they found out. They were not on their way to a SB before the announcement.  It's another in a long line of excuses for Belichick.

 

 

[nyjunc]

3 hours ago, rangerous said:

kosar was also quite finished as a qb.  his arm, never great, was shot.  as for the owner, he created a whole lot of team turmoil with his moving to baltimore.  as i recall it wasn't pretty.  and then marchibroda won 4, 4 and 6 before getting launched for billick.

Kosar was still only 28.

 

They won 4,4 and 6 with the talent left behind from the Belichick era.  Took them some time to rebuild the team.  They won a SB with one holdover from the Belichick years

[Albaniajet]

3 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

I'm not aware he told the team before that game, is there any links for that?  Either way after the good start they were struggling big time before they found out. They were not on their way to a SB before the announcement.  It's another in a long line of excuses for Belichick.

 

 

Belichick has made the playoffs once without Tom Brady.  And that was in 1994

[nyjunc]

11 hours ago, batman10023 said:

Agree.  Is he good or is it the system?

surprised he lasted that long 

The system hasn't won with anyone other than Brady and that includes with belichy as HC or any of his former assistants.

11 hours ago, PLO said:

He took Matt Cassel to a 11 and 5 record. 

For me, others will disagree, he's the GOAT coach and for me, also, Brady is the one who is over-rated. There are few, very few, seasons where I can definitively state Brady was the best QB in the league for that season, let alone the best of all time. Not saying he's not a great, just not the greatest. I think title wins are largely over-rated for QBs especially given its a 46 man game. 

There have been big games where Brady's deficiencies have been well on display and he's been exposed. I think he was exposed the other day vs the Patriots who are not exactly awash with talent on either side of the ball these days. 

This is not to deny Belichick is also a cheat. 

He took Matt Cassel to losing 5 more games than the year before and missing the playoffs despite a much easier schedule.  The same Matt Cassell who led the Chiefs to a division title and made a pro bowl just 2 years later.

 

Belichick's results are below average without Brady.  Brady made his awful personnel decisions work and made up for his choking D's too many times to count.  Without Brady Belichick would never been fired within a year or two.

10 hours ago, PLO said:

Brady isn't the best QB ever though, for me that's not even close. Brady won the SB last year but was he a better QB than Rodgers or Mahomes for the season? Not even close. Takes 46 players out of a 53 man roster to win games. 

Brady is the best of all time and he's lapped the field.  Mahomes is off to a great start but has a long way to go to even get in the conversation.

3 hours ago, PLO said:

Peyton changed the way the game was played though, Brady didn't. 

Brady was made into Brady by Belichick, there's a reason he was picked in the 6th round. In 2007 he had arguably the greatest roster ever assembled to play with but couldn't close the deal. 

I'm not saying he isn't great, inarguably he is, IMO he isn't the GOAT. 

That 07 roster was the best he played with but it was an average roster that Peyton played with throughout his career.

Brady made Belichick not the other way around.  

Belichick without Brady: 8 seasons, 6 losing seasons, 1 WC appearance.

Peyton's head coaches without him:

Mora: 4 playoff appearances including division title

Dungy: 4 playoff appearances with division title and NFC Championship Game appearance

Caldwell: 2 playoff appearances in DETROIT

Fox: 4 playoff apps, 3 division titles, 2 NFC Championship Games, Super Bowl(where his offense put up 29 on Belichick's D not some guy named Brady prevented him from winning)

Kubiak: 2 division titles with the Texans 

 

 

[nyjunc]

10 minutes ago, Albaniajet said:

Belichick has made the playoffs once without Tom Brady.  And that was in 1994

It's funny to me how people think Peyton was better because Brady had Belichick yet every one of Peyton's coaches had more success without him then Belichick without Brady.  Even Jim Caldwell ??

[Albaniajet]

2 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

The system hasn't won with anyone other than Brady and that includes with belichy as HC or any of his former assistants.

He took Matt Cassel to losing 5 more games than the year before and missing the playoffs despite a much easier schedule.  The same Matt Cassell who led the Chiefs to a division title and made a pro bowl just 2 years later.

 

Belichick's results are below average without Brady.  Brady made his awful personnel decisions work and made up for his choking D's too many times to count.  Without Brady Belichick would never been fired within a year or two.

Brady is the best of all time and he's lapped the field.  Mahomes is off to a great start but has a long way to go to even get in the conversation.

That 07 roster was the best he played with but it was an average roster that Peyton played with throughout his career.

Brady made Belichick not the other way around.  

Belichick without Brady: 8 seasons, 6 losing seasons, 1 WC appearance.

Peyton's head coaches without him:

Mora: 4 playoff appearances including division title

Dungy: 4 playoff appearances with division title and NFC Championship Game appearance

Caldwell: 2 playoff appearances in DETROIT

Fox: 4 playoff apps, 3 division titles, 2 NFC Championship Games, Super Bowl(where his offense put up 29 on Belichick's D not some guy named Brady prevented him from winning)

Kubiak: 2 division titles with the Texans 

 

 

20 years of ESPN garbage soundbytes have people believing Bill Belichick sharts gold nuggets

[Albaniajet]

3 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

It's funny to me how people think Peyton was better because Brady had Belichick yet every one of Peyton's coaches had more success without him then Belichick without Brady.  Even Jim Caldwell ??

Belichick is a great defensive coordinator. He was phenomenal here under Parcells.  He is not the greatest head coach ever just because he got to tell Brady for 20 years to go take back the lead in the 4th quarter

 

I wouldn’t be shocked if this is his last season and his son takes over as head coach.  A lot of the additional coverage of Steve leads me to believe this Kraft and Goodell setting up the narrative for succession. If the pats finish 5-12 or worse in a not great division it starts to become obvious to everyone it was always Brady

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, Albaniajet said:

20 years of ESPN garbage soundbytes have people believing Bill Belichick sharts gold nuggets

I thought he'd be smart enough to retire when Brady was done in New England.

[nyjunc]

Just now, Albaniajet said:

Belichick is a great defensive coordinator. He was phenomenal here under Parcells.  He is not the greatest head coach ever just because he got to tell Brady for 20 years to go take back the lead in the 4th quarter

 

I wouldn’t be shocked if this is his last season and his son takes over as head coach.  If the pats finish 5-12 or worse it starts to become obvious to everyone it was always Brady

He's a brilliant football mind but even as a DC he's a little overrated.  His teams have melted in big moments far too often without LT including the 1998 AFC Championship Game.

He was very fortunate to have the best defensive player of all time as a DC and the next QB of all time as a HC

[Albaniajet]

4 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

I thought he'd be smart enough to retire when Brady was done in New England.

He believes his own hype

[Albaniajet]

3 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

He's a brilliant football mind but even as a DC he's a little overrated.  His teams have melted in big moments far too often without LT including the 1998 AFC Championship Game.

He was very fortunate to have the best defensive player of all time as a DC and the next QB of all time as a HC

Great defensive play caller but that’s what he is.  I’m just so sick and tired of this media narrative that Belichick mumbling during press conferences is why the patriots win

 

No they won because the greatest qb ever did basically everything for Belichick for 20 years

[Jet Nut]

4 hours ago, PLO said:

Titles isn't a good argument though. Never has been, never will be. 

It’s the only argument that counts.  I can argue for Montana, Marino, Manning, Brady, Rodgers as the best until we get to post season and 10 SBs, 7 SB wins.  To argue against his post season accomplishments is kind of mind numbing.  As much as I hate him

[Jet Nut]

2 hours ago, isired said:

Brady's not usually too bad in the elements. Career in precipitation (includes Sunday night's 70.8 QBR / 0 TD etc.):

He also isn’t usually playing a team he was a part of for 18 years.  I think it was uncomfortable for him.   Whatever the reason he was off that night.  
I doubt BB could throw him anything he hasn’t seen before.

[Jet Nut]

4 hours ago, PLO said:

Peyton changed the way the game was played though, Brady didn't. 

Brady was made into Brady by Belichick, there's a reason he was picked in the 6th round. In 2007 he had arguably the greatest roster ever assembled to play with but couldn't close the deal. 

I'm not saying he isn't great, inarguably he is, IMO he isn't the GOAT. 

How did Manning change anything in the game?  He was a great QB but he changed nothing.  Their were great QBs before Manning and will be great QBs after him.  
 

[isired]

I'm not aware he told the team before that game, is there any links for that?  Either way after the good start they were struggling big time before they found out. They were not on their way to a SB before the announcement.  It's another in a long line of excuses for Belichick.
 

It's in the 'A Football Life' episode on the 95 Browns.

Edit: From various accounts, it looks like Modell and minority owner Brian Lerner started talking 'in secret' with the Maryland Stadium Authority in July 1995; Modell told Carmen Policy in September. Probably around when he told Newsome. Rumors "swirled" in Cleveland in October.

Entering the 1995 season, the Browns, coached by Bill Belichick, were coming off a playoff season in which the team finished 11–5 and advanced to the second round of the playoffs. Sports Illustrated predicted that the Browns would represent the AFC in Super Bowl XXX at the end of the season, and the team started 3–1, but they then lost their next three games.[10][11]
While this was happening, Browns minority owner Al Lerner was privately prodding Modell to consider moving to Baltimore. He urged Modell to contact newly installed Maryland Stadium Authority chairman John Moag. Earlier in the year, the league had told Moag that Baltimore would get a team–either an expansion team or a relocated existing team–if a stadium were already in place. Elected officials in Baltimore and Maryland were still smarting from the Colts moving to Indianapolis after the 1983 season, and refused to commit any money towards a new stadium unless the Stadium Authority secured a deal with a team. With this in mind, Moag made several calls to Modell that went ignored for much of 1995. Finally, in late July, Modell allowed Lerner to meet with Moag, provided that Lerner stress that Modell was not serious about moving. At that meeting, Moag laid out an offer in which the Browns would get the rights to a new, $220 million stadium if they moved to Baltimore. However, Moag told Lerner to take the offer back to Modell only if he was serious about considering a move.[8]
Negotiations continued in secret until September, when Moag told Lerner that if the Browns were serious about moving, "you need to act and act now." A few days later, Lerner, Modell and Moag met at Lerner's Midtown Manhattan office. At that meeting, Moag presented a memorandum of understanding that was almost identical to what he'd offered the Cincinnati Bengals a few months earlier–a deal that ultimately led Cincinnati voters to pass a referendum that built what would become Paul Brown Stadium. Indeed, some paragraphs still referred to "Cincinnati" rather than "Cleveland." Modell still had some trepidation about the deal, but signed after Moag assured him that Baltimore fans would hail him as a hero.[8]
Soon afterward, Modell told San Francisco 49ers president Carmen Policy that he was moving the Browns to Baltimore. Policy had been well aware that relations between Modell and Cleveland had become rather strained, and was secretly working with Pittsburgh Steelers owner Dan Rooney to keep the Browns in Cleveland. Policy urged Modell to sit down with NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue in hopes of resolving the situation, but Modell rejected it out of hand.[8]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Browns_relocation_controversy

The day that it was no longer rumor that the team were indeed going to relocate to the City of Baltimore will remain etched into every die-hard Browns fan. You remember where you were, what you were doing, how you felt, and your gut reaction.

Cleveland had just reeled off a remarkable 11-5-0 season under fourth-year head coach Bill Belichick. The outlook was rosy and upbeat for the 1995 Browns. Sports Illustrated had predicted a Cowboys – Browns Super Bowl appearance during the preseason. 1995 was also the 50th Anniversary of the franchise, founded in 1946. The Browns began the year 3-1-0 and on top of the AFC Central Division just weeks into the season.

Then the rumors began to swirl. The Browns lost three straight including a 23-15 loss to the hapless Jacksonville Jaguars in front of just over 64,000 fans whereas just three weeks earlier 74,280 crammed the stadium to witness a 35-17 victory over the Chiefs. After a win over the Bengals, the Browns were bludgeoned 37-10 by the Oilers at home with a 57,881 gate. The very next day, it became official: Modell announced that the Browns were indeed moving to Baltimore the following season.


Part of the perks Modell got from the City of Baltimore was a spanking new $200 million stadium rent-free for 30 years plus a $50 million cash signing bonus just for moving. At the press conference, Maryland governor Parris Glendening gleefully held up a document and stated, “Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a signed contract in hand. The Browns are indeed coming to Baltimore.”

The Baltimore Browns?

The team collapsed and lost six of seven games to finish 5-11-0. At first it was speculated that the team would be christened the “Baltimore Browns”, but the NFL stepped in and allowed the history, colors, uniform designs and namesake, among other things, to remain in Cleveland. In March of 1996 at an outdoor press conference, Modell held up a small sign which displayed the moniker “Ravens.”

Former NFL great and head coach Iron Mike Ditka was quoted as saying, “These are some of the best fans in the NFL. I said that when I came here with my Bears. They (the Cleveland sports fans) don’t deserve this. If Modell had any sort of sense of dignity, he would have sold the team.”

In 2001, the Ravens defeated the Giants 34-7 in Super Bowl XXXV in Tampa. The following season, Bill Belichick’s Patriots captured Super Bowl XXXVI. The significance of these two championships was the Browns’ old team and the Browns’ old coach had found Super Bowl success.

Just not with Cleveland.

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2020/3/26/21193496/art-modell-10-poisons-he-inflicted-on-the-browns

[nyjunc]

17 minutes ago, isired said:

It's in the 'A Football Life' episode on the 95 Browns.

Even if accurate they were struggling at that time.  This was not a SB team that got derailed by the announcement.  The AFC was really weak back then and yet they were 4-4 if what they are saying is true that he let the team know the night before they lost their 5th game and they had lost 3 straight then need ot a week before against the Bengals to get to 4-4.

[nyjunc]

22 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

How did Manning change anything in the game?  He was a great QB but he changed nothing.  Their were great QBs before Manning and will be great QBs after him.  
 

Well the colts did whine to the league about Pats DBs mugging colts WRs after the 2003 AFC Championship Game where they lost 24-14.  That rule change ushered in a new era of ridiculous QB numbers.

Of course 2 weeks after that game the great Jake Delhomme put up 29 points against the same Pats D and a year later with the new rules Peyton put up 3 points in a rematch with NE in the divisional Rd?

[Biggs]

Bill Walsh was the greatest HC in modern NFL history.   BB wasn't in the same catagory as Walsh.  Walsh reinvented the modern passing game.  BB was a great DC and with Brady running the O has an unmatched record.  Everything almose every great defensive coach does in the NFL was a reaction to what Bill Walsh drew up.

[isired]

Even if accurate they were struggling at that time.  This was not a SB team that got derailed by the announcement.  The AFC was really weak back then and yet they were 4-4 if what they are saying is true that he let the team know the night before they lost their 5th game and they had lost 3 straight then need ot a week before against the Bengals to get to 4-4.

Added some corroboration above. Anyone can feel any way about that team, but there's no doubting they were affected.

After 3-1 their home attendance dropped more than 10k fans - why would this happen to a 3-1 team tied for the lead in their division?

Of course attendance then plummeted further after the public announcement. All accounts I've read and from what I recall (I was in my late 20s) this was all directly attributed to the move.

Debating whether Cleveland was a sure-fire SB team is pointless, they were a good team with a great shot at winning their division, so they were in the hunt.

[Jet Nut]

52 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Well the colts did whine to the league about Pats DBs mugging colts WRs after the 2003 AFC Championship Game where they lost 24-14.  That rule change ushered in a new era of ridiculous QB numbers.

Of course 2 weeks after that game the great Jake Delhomme put up 29 points against the same Pats D and a year later with the new rules Peyton put up 3 points in a rematch with NE in the divisional Rd?

But the rules were changed because the Pats were at fault.  The rule change wasn’t a case of Manning changing the game.  Which I still don’t see

[Jet Nut]

25 minutes ago, isired said:

Added some corroboration above. Anyone can feel any way about that team, but there's no doubting they were affected.

After 3-1 their home attendance dropped more than 10k fans - why would this happen to a 3-1 team tied for the lead in their division?

Of course attendance then plummeted further after the public announcement. All accounts I've read and from what I recall (I was in my late 20s) this was all directly attributed to the move.

Debating whether Cleveland was a sure-fire SB team is pointless, they were a good team with a great shot at winning their division, so they were in the hunt.

It’s the HCs job to hold his team together, not to blame a pending move for his team going into the tank

[WowOhWow]

Player arguments aside - what I find very, very interesting is the fact that for the first time I can recall a network actually started to put a chink in Belli's armor by coming right out and showing the facts...Belli has been way below ave as a HC without Brady.

He's been a great DC.  Literally great.  But as a HC he's been average.  

I've been making this argument for years and now that Brady has won and Belli is struggling (even with tons of guys coming back) it's great to see the national media start to talk some sense.

[batman10023]

4 hours ago, Albaniajet said:

Belichick is a great defensive coordinator. He was phenomenal here under Parcells.  He is not the greatest head coach ever just because he got to tell Brady for 20 years to go take back the lead in the 4th quarter

 

I wouldn’t be shocked if this is his last season and his son takes over as head coach.  A lot of the additional coverage of Steve leads me to believe this Kraft and Goodell setting up the narrative for succession. If the pats finish 5-12 or worse in a not great division it starts to become obvious to everyone it was always Brady

isn't the head coaching job already spoken for?

[nyjunc]

3 hours ago, isired said:

Added some corroboration above. Anyone can feel any way about that team, but there's no doubting they were affected.

After 3-1 their home attendance dropped more than 10k fans - why would this happen to a 3-1 team tied for the lead in their division?

Of course attendance then plummeted further after the public announcement. All accounts I've read and from what I recall (I was in my late 20s) this was all directly attributed to the move.

Debating whether Cleveland was a sure-fire SB team is pointless, they were a good team with a great shot at winning their division, so they were in the hunt.

In the home opener their attendance was 61,083

In the home game that dropped them to 3-3 the attendance was 64,405

In the last home game before official announcement attendance was 57,881.

 

No outrageous drop in attendance

[isired]

In the home opener their attendance was 61,083
In the home game that dropped them to 3-3 the attendance was 64,405
In the last home game before official announcement attendance was 57,881.
 
No outrageous drop in attendance

I guess you have a different source than the SB Nation article:
The Browns began the year 3-1-0 and on top of the AFC Central Division just weeks into the season.

Then the rumors began to swirl. The Browns lost three straight including a 23-15 loss to the hapless Jacksonville Jaguars in front of just over 64,000 fans whereas just three weeks earlier 74,280 crammed the stadium to witness a 35-17 victory over the Chiefs. After a win over the Bengals, the Browns were bludgeoned 37-10 by the Oilers at home with a 57,881 gate. The very next day, it became official: Modell announced that the Browns were indeed moving to Baltimore the following season.

[isired]

It’s the HCs job to hold his team together, not to blame a pending move for his team going into the tank

Well on this we agree 100%. Not really surprising that Belichick doesn't excel at the 'ray-rah-rally-the-troops' moments.

[FidelioJet]

All teams and HC's have to deal with adversity.  Making excuses for BB is ridiculous.

BB is far under .500 has a HC without Brady.

He was on his way to being fired from NE before Bledsoe got hurt.

[isired]

All teams and HC's have to deal with adversity.  Making excuses for BB is ridiculous.
BB is far under .500 has a HC without Brady.
He was on his way to being fired from NE before Bledsoe got hurt.

2 games into his second season? Come on. We all hate the guy but be logical. Even Pete Carroll got 3 seasons as he backslid from Parcells' roster (10-6, 9-7, 8-8)...

[FidelioJet]

8 minutes ago, isired said:

46 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

All teams and HC's have to deal with adversity.  Making excuses for BB is ridiculous.
BB is far under .500 has a HC without Brady.
He was on his way to being fired from NE before Bledsoe got hurt.

2 games into his second season? Come on. We all hate the guy but be logical. Even Pete Carroll got 3 seasons as he backslid from Parcells' roster (10-6, 9-7, 8-8)...

Without Brady he is gone after his 3rd year.

I wasn't being literal...just on his way to getting fired.  Say what you want - the facts are the facts, that he has not been a good HC without Brady.

You can love the guy or hate the guy, or make all the excuses in the world for the guy....doesn't really matter to me.

It seems people keep making excuses fo his sh*tty seasons.  Strange that multiple time cheater seems to get given all the excuses in the world.