Belichick without Brady...

[isired]

Without Brady he is gone after his 3rd year.
I wasn't being literal...just on his way to getting fired.  Say what you want - the facts are the facts, that he has not been a good HC without Brady.
You can love the guy or hate the guy, or make all the excuses in the world for the guy....doesn't really matter to me.
It seems people keep making excuses fo his sh*tty seasons.  Strange that multiple time cheater seems to get given all the excuses in the world.

That's why I don't count him out. He's got his system QB, it's going to suck if he's back competing for the division again next year.

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, isired said:

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

All teams and HC's have to deal with adversity.  Making excuses for BB is ridiculous.
BB is far under .500 has a HC without Brady.
He was on his way to being fired from NE before Bledsoe got hurt.

2 games into his second season? Come on. We all hate the guy but be logical. Even Pete Carroll got 3 seasons as he backslid from Parcells' roster (10-6, 9-7, 8-8)...

There were reports that he was getting fired.  He came from Cleveland with an influential owner calling him all kinds of names, shlt on the Jets because he was paranoid and was failing in NE.  
Pete Carrol never had a losing season.  He had 2 winning seasons and then was fired after an 8-8 season

[FidelioJet]

50 minutes ago, isired said:

 

That's why I don't count him out. He's got his system QB, it's going to suck if he's back competing for the division again next year.

It’s a QB league and he’ll have the 3rd best QB in the division.  
Yes, he might be able to cheat his way, but not sure he gets away with it without Brady.  Brady is the golden child.  Not so much BB. 

[Albaniajet]

2 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

All teams and HC's have to deal with adversity.  Making excuses for BB is ridiculous.

BB is far under .500 has a HC without Brady.

He was on his way to being fired from NE before Bledsoe got hurt.

14 games under .500 without TB12 and that number is going to get bigger

[Albaniajet]

1 hour ago, isired said:

 

That's why I don't count him out. He's got his system QB, it's going to suck if he's back competing for the division again next year.

We’re still doing this with the “system?”

 

Jones is better than trash heap bums like Matt Cassell and Ryan Mallett but he’s not good enough.  Only hope is if Belichick gets Jimmy G back in a trade and he stays healthy

[PLO]

13 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

How did Manning change anything in the game?  He was a great QB but he changed nothing.  Their were great QBs before Manning and will be great QBs after him.  
 

The hurry up offense and the 2 minute drill, while not "invented" by Peyton, were certainly perfected by him. Every QB who uses the hurry-up today, including Brady, owe Manning a massive debt. He most certainly changed the way the game is played. Can't say the same for Brady....if you were being unkind you would say Brady is the greatest system QB in the games history, but definitely not the GOAT overall. 

In my lifetime there have been very few players who have changed the game: Lawrence Taylor is obviously one, Peyton is another. 

[PLO]

13 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

It’s the only argument that counts.  I can argue for Montana, Marino, Manning, Brady, Rodgers as the best until we get to post season and 10 SBs, 7 SB wins.  To argue against his post season accomplishments is kind of mind numbing.  As much as I hate him

It isn't though, its a terrible sole argument for GOAT status, especially in a league with huge relative roster sizes (compared to other sports) where coaching is massively important (again, compared to other sports given the importance of pre-planned plays for basically every snap). 

[FidelioJet]

9 hours ago, Albaniajet said:

We’re still doing this with the “system?”

 

Jones is better than trash heap bums like Matt Cassell and Ryan Mallett but he’s not good enough.  Only hope is if Belichick gets Jimmy G back in a trade and he stays healthy

Mac Jones was asked once this season to carry the team and have to score real point to win...and in that game he threw 3 int's.

They've been able to really protect him and. not ask him to do too much.  

[Jet Nut]

On 10/5/2021 at 11:36 PM, PLO said:

The hurry up offense and the 2 minute drill, while not "invented" by Peyton, were certainly perfected by him. Every QB who uses the hurry-up today, including Brady, owe Manning a massive debt. He most certainly changed the way the game is played. Can't say the same for Brady....if you were being unkind you would say Brady is the greatest system QB in the games history, but definitely not the GOAT overall. 

In my lifetime there have been very few players who have changed the game: Lawrence Taylor is obviously one, Peyton is another. 

The hurry up offense has nothing to do with Peyton, its from the Bengals under Sam Wyche and Boomer Esiason.  Not one single QB owes a single ounce of debt, never mind a massive one.  Wyche did it to catch defenses before they could substitute. 

You are out of your mind for even attempting to give Manning credit for the hurry up.  Manning changed nothing, he was a great QB.  Thats it.  Thats all it has to be stop making him out to being a system or approach changer.  

[PLO]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

The hurry mop offense has nothing to do with Peyton, its from the Bengals under Sam Wyche and Boomer Esiason.  Not one single QB owes a single ounce of debt, never mind a massive one.  Wyche did it to catch defenses before they could substitute. 

You are out of your mind for even attempting to give Manning credit for the hurry up.  Manning changed nothing, he was a great QB.  Thats it.  Thats all it has to be stop making him out to being a system or approach changer.  

Not if you ask actual people in the league. Peyton definitely changed the QB position. That's a fact. Can't say the same about Tom "I fell into the best situation possible with the best coach of all time" Brady. 

[Jet Nut]

9 minutes ago, PLO said:

Not if you ask actual people in the league. Peyton definitely changed the QB position. That's a fact. Can't say the same about Tom "I fell into the best situation possible with the best coach of all time" Brady. 

Not if you ask anyone who was around for Sam Wyches Bengals.  
Playing close to GOAT level QB isn’t changing the game.  Stop already.  Manning didn’t change a thing in the game, no one in the league is saying that the hurry up offense is due to Manning.  Stop taking the credit away from the guy who made it a thing, Sam Wyche 

[PLO]

40 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Not if you ask anyone who was around for Sam Wyches Bengals.  
Playing close to GOAT level QB isn’t changing the game.  Stop already.  Manning didn’t change a thing in the game, no one in the league is saying that the hurry up offense is due to Manning.  Stop taking the credit away from the guy who made it a thing, Sam Wyche 

You're a good poster, but this take is embarrassing. Peyton most definitely changed the game. Don't decide to die on a hill that isn't defendable. Retreat, take another position, because all of this is easily researchable. Brady as the GOAT is like taking Kanye West over the Beatles. Like I said, embarrassing. 

I can't believe some of the takes in this thread, but then, given the influence of social media (anti-certain-scientific-fact-stances etc) its understandable. 

[Jet Nut]

29 minutes ago, PLO said:

You're a good poster, but this take is embarrassing. Peyton most definitely changed the game. Don't decide to die on a hill that isn't defendable. Retreat, take another position, because all of this is easily researchable. Brady as the GOAT is like taking Kanye West over the Beatles. Like I said, embarrassing. 

I can't believe some of the takes in this thread, but then, given the influence of social media (anti-certain-scientific-fact-stances etc) its understandable. 

How did Peyton change the game?

 You mentioned the hurry up were wrong.  Now you don’t tell us how he did . 

Social media?  What

[PLO]

1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

How did Peyton change the game?

 You mentioned the hurry up were wrong.  Now you don’t tell us how he did . 

Social media?  What

Peyton basically invented the hurry up/audible/two minute offence used across the league today. You can paint it anyway you want, but the way its used today was first done by Peyton, that's a fact.  What did Brady come up with? Playing with a GOAT coach and fantastic rosters? 

Don't get me wrong, Brady is a very good QB, but come on. 

Social media and the Press has a massive influence on GOAT conversations, sometimes for good, often for bad. For example for the bad, the Ringer website would have Brady as the GOAT because their owner is a massive Pats fan. These types overly influence GOAT conversations without looking at the actual facts and appeal to recency bias above all. A bit like picking Khalil Mack over Lawrence Taylor as a player because Mack has the most recent sack numbers. Both in a tier of excellence but only one in a tier of fantastic supremacy. 

[bostonmajet]

Here in NE, they are still talking about the Patriots getting into the playoffs this year. LOL.

This week is a gimee game against Houston. If they loose to the Texans and go 1-4 - BB may be out the door sooner than we think. I would imagine he wins enough games this year - 6 or 8 to keep his job, but a loss to the Texans would sting - can't wait.

[isired]

We’re still doing this with the “system?”
 
Jones is better than trash heap bums like Matt Cassell and Ryan Mallett but he’s not good enough.  Only hope is if Belichick gets Jimmy G back in a trade and he stays healthy

Jimmy G will be a backup on his next team.

[isired]

There were reports that he was getting fired.  He came from Cleveland with an influential owner calling him all kinds of names, shlt on the Jets because he was paranoid and was failing in NE.  
Pete Carrol never had a losing season.  He had 2 winning seasons and then was fired after an 8-8 season

Carroll didn't do a good job in NY or NE. On ME he inherited a Parcells roster, Parcells went 11-5 and won the division, and Carroll proceeded to go 10-6, 9-7 then 8-8. That's gonna get you fired.

[nyjunc]

On 10/5/2021 at 5:55 PM, isired said:

I guess you have a different source than the SB Nation article:
The Browns began the year 3-1-0 and on top of the AFC Central Division just weeks into the season.

Then the rumors began to swirl. The Browns lost three straight including a 23-15 loss to the hapless Jacksonville Jaguars in front of just over 64,000 fans whereas just three weeks earlier 74,280 crammed the stadium to witness a 35-17 victory over the Chiefs. After a win over the Bengals, the Browns were bludgeoned 37-10 by the Oilers at home with a 57,881 gate. The very next day, it became official: Modell announced that the Browns were indeed moving to Baltimore the following season.

Home opener 9/10

61, 083

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/199509100cle.htm

 

10/22 fell to 3-4

64,405

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/199510220cle.htm

 

2 days before the announcement, fell to 4-5

57, 881

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/199511050cle.htm

 

Stop making excuses, Belichick did an awful job in Cleveland.  Lucky for the Ravens they got rid of all the players Belichick brought in except for one and would win a Super Bowl 5 years later.

 

[nyjunc]

On 10/5/2021 at 7:43 PM, isired said:

 

That's why I don't count him out. He's got his system QB, it's going to suck if he's back competing for the division again next year.

Brady was the system, he's never had any real success with any other QB

It's why Brady left and won a Super Bowl wow Belichick and all his former assistants all have failed without Brady in the NFL.

[nyjunc]

On 10/6/2021 at 10:16 PM, isired said:

On 10/5/2021 at 8:30 PM, Jet Nut said:

There were reports that he was getting fired.  He came from Cleveland with an influential owner calling him all kinds of names, shlt on the Jets because he was paranoid and was failing in NE.  
Pete Carrol never had a losing season.  He had 2 winning seasons and then was fired after an 8-8 season

Carroll didn't do a good job in NY or NE. On ME he inherited a Parcells roster, Parcells went 11-5 and won the division, and Carroll proceeded to go 10-6, 9-7 then 8-8. That's gonna get you fired.

Then Belichick took over and with that inherited roster started his time there 5-13 until Brady was forced to start and saved his career.

[nyjunc]

On 10/6/2021 at 11:16 AM, PLO said:

Peyton basically invented the hurry up/audible/two minute offence used across the league today. You can paint it anyway you want, but the way its used today was first done by Peyton, that's a fact.  What did Brady come up with? Playing with a GOAT coach and fantastic rosters? 

Don't get me wrong, Brady is a very good QB, but come on. 

Social media and the Press has a massive influence on GOAT conversations, sometimes for good, often for bad. For example for the bad, the Ringer website would have Brady as the GOAT because their owner is a massive Pats fan. These types overly influence GOAT conversations without looking at the actual facts and appeal to recency bias above all. A bit like picking Khalil Mack over Lawrence Taylor as a player because Mack has the most recent sack numbers. Both in a tier of excellence but only one in a tier of fantastic supremacy. 

Brady is so far ahead of Peyton it's an insult just to discuss them in the same sentence.  Could you imagine what Brady would have done in Indianapolis and Denver with all that talent around Peyton?  He's have more than 7 Super Bowls and his paint numbers playing mostly in domes would be so far ahead of everyone.

Peyton is an all time great but there's no discussion over who the greatest is.

[Jet Nut]

38 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Then Belichick took over and with that inherited roster started his time there 5-13 until Brady was forced to start and saved his career.

I know, thats why I said there were reports back then that he was getting the axe

[Biggs]

On 10/5/2021 at 11:36 PM, PLO said:

The hurry up offense and the 2 minute drill, while not "invented" by Peyton, were certainly perfected by him. Every QB who uses the hurry-up today, including Brady, owe Manning a massive debt. He most certainly changed the way the game is played. Can't say the same for Brady....if you were being unkind you would say Brady is the greatest system QB in the games history, but definitely not the GOAT overall. 

In my lifetime there have been very few players who have changed the game: Lawrence Taylor is obviously one, Peyton is another. 

Marv Levy had Jim Kelly run the hurry up O to 4 sb appearances.  Kelly is in the HOF because of it.  The Giants with an inferior team beat it by taking the air out of the ball in their last SB appearance.

The idea that Peyton Manning perfected the hurry up is ridiculous.   Tom Brady did more with less time on the clock than Peyton ever did.  

[Biggs]

On 10/5/2021 at 8:34 PM, FidelioJet said:

It’s a QB league and he’ll have the 3rd best QB in the division.  
Yes, he might be able to cheat his way, but not sure he gets away with it without Brady.  Brady is the golden child.  Not so much BB. 

Mac Jones may not be great but right now he's the No. 2 QB in the division and it's not close.

[FidelioJet]

49 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Mac Jones may not be great but right now he's the No. 2 QB in the division and it's not close.

Mac Jones is a JAG.  Mac Jones is never winning a Super Bowl.

 

[nyjunc]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

I know, thats why I said there were reports back then that he was getting the axe

I don't think the seat was hot yet but it was certainly getting warm.  

[Snell41]

Zach Wilson is our starting QB. We really shouldn’t be laughing at anyone


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[Snell41]

Mac Jones is a JAG.  Mac Jones is never winning a Super Bowl.
 

Mac Jones is a worlds better NFL QB than Zach Wilson. It’s not even remotely close.


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[Jet Life]

1 minute ago, Snell41 said:

Zach Wilson is our starting QB. We really shouldn’t be laughing at anyone


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And Mac Jones is their starting QB. I’ll continue to laugh 

[jgb]

On 10/4/2021 at 7:51 PM, JoJoTownsell1 said:

Meh, he is given a ton of easy passes and does fairly well with them. He was playing against a bunch of scrubs in TBs secondary thanks to injuries and despite being "tom brady Jr" has 4TDs and 4INTs on the season and is 1-3 with his only win against the Jets. So let's pump the brakes on Mac Jones love. 

You mean.... he was put in a situation to succeed based on his strengths? That almost sounds like... good coaching.

[Snell41]

And Mac Jones is their starting QB. I’ll continue to laugh 

You keep laughing when Jones is still in the league 5 years from now and Zach is starting his car dealership businesses in Utah


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[Jet Life]

Just now, Snell41 said:

 

You keep laughing when Jones is still in the league 5 years from now and Zach is starting his car dealership businesses in Utah


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Right now I think both are bad, so me bashing Mac isn’t some praise of Zach by any stretch. It’s just funny you actually think Mac Jones is a good player. That’s why I’m laughing at you, and will continue to do so

[Snell41]

Right now I think both are bad, so me bashing Mac isn’t some praise of Zach by any stretch. It’s just funny you actually think Mac Jones is a good player. That’s why I’m laughing at you, and will continue to do so

I don’t think Jones is good, I think he’s probably a career backup. I don’t think Zach will have a career at all.


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[Biggs]

3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Brady is so far ahead of Peyton it's an insult just to discuss them in the same sentence.  Could you imagine what Brady would have done in Indianapolis and Denver with all that talent around Peyton?  He's have more than 7 Super Bowls and his paint numbers playing mostly in domes would be so far ahead of everyone.

Peyton is an all time great but there's no discussion over who the greatest is.

He also played in a dome that padded his stats.

[chirorob]

On 10/5/2021 at 10:36 PM, PLO said:

The hurry up offense and the 2 minute drill, while not "invented" by Peyton, were certainly perfected by him. Every QB who uses the hurry-up today, including Brady, owe Manning a massive debt. He most certainly changed the way the game is played. Can't say the same for Brady....if you were being unkind you would say Brady is the greatest system QB in the games history, but definitely not the GOAT overall. 

In my lifetime there have been very few players who have changed the game: Lawrence Taylor is obviously one, Peyton is another. 

Everything builds on people before them.

The 2 minute drill was originally made known by Johnny U for beating the Giants with it in the 58 title game.

The hurry up as I remember it was started by the Bengals, and then copied by the Bills who took it to the Super Bowl.