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On 10/6/2021 at 7:39 AM, Jet Nut said:

The hurry mop offense has nothing to do with Peyton, its from the Bengals under Sam Wyche and Boomer Esiason.  Not one single QB owes a single ounce of debt, never mind a massive one.  Wyche did it to catch defenses before they could substitute. 

You are out of your mind for even attempting to give Manning credit for the hurry up.  Manning changed nothing, he was a great QB.  Thats it.  Thats all it has to be stop making him out to being a system or approach changer.  

Yup and Marv Levy incorporated it into an every down and distance O.  Chip Kelly did it successfully in College and when he didn't have enough talent in the NFL showed that it didn't work.  If you didn't move the ball your D was on the field all day.  

Payton played in a dome with a very fast track and HOF WR and stud HOF running backs.   He's not only not better than Brady he's the second best Colts QB in NFL history.  

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Jets record with NE not having Brady?   3 and 20.  The Jets were also better when Brady was on NE.   That's how good Brady is.  

Most overrated head coach of all time. The guy stepped in sh!t 21 years ago.  If it weren't for Tom Brady, he'd be the defensive equivalent of Norv Turner.

Tampa Bay was averaging 4+ TDs and just under 38 pts/game. Last night they struggled to get a single TD and half their usual point total. The guy is doing something right.

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On 10/6/2021 at 9:32 AM, PLO said:

Not if you ask actual people in the league. Peyton definitely changed the QB position. That's a fact. Can't say the same about Tom "I fell into the best situation possible with the best coach of all time" Brady. 

Eli who isn't in the same class as Peyton was arguably more clutch in big games than Peyton.   All you need to do is go back and watch the two Seattle back to back SB.  Peyton shat the bed right out of the gate.  Brady picked that same D apart in the SB.  

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1 hour ago, Snell41 said:

 


Mac Jones is a worlds better NFL QB than Zach Wilson. It’s not even remotely close.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

No, he's not.  He has one more win on a team that is worlds better than the Jets.

I am very grateful Mac Jones is not our QB of the future.  He's the QB that will assure you languish in mediocrity for a decade.

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3 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

No, he's not.  He has one more win on a team that is worlds better than the Jets.

I am very grateful Mac Jones is not our QB of the future.  He's the QB that will assure you languish in mediocrity for a decade.

Saying Jones > Wilson is like saying trash > dog turds

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On 10/4/2021 at 9:03 AM, nyjunc said:

He's coached over 8 full seasons without Brady.

6 losing seasons

62-75 record

36-44 in Cleveland in 5 years

26-31 in New England in 3+ full seasons

1 wild card playoff appearance

1 wild card playoff win(at home under the old playoff format when wild card teams could play at home in the wild card round)

If he won because of cheating he would have won before brady and would be winning after him.  He won because of Brady

This needs a little context.

First, the only correct answer is they needed each other.  

Second, those numbers have no context.  36-44 is not good.  I mean he did take over a 3-13 team.  He also did it in the era before the salary cap we love and loathe today.  I think during that time there was Plan B which if I remember correctly allowed the team to protect its top 30 or so players.  Then he took over a sinking Patriots team with salary cap issues. 

Third, his 2020 job might be his best coaching job after the 2001 and 2007 seasons.  Again, due to his GMIng, salary cap issues and COVID opt outs, he managed to coax a 7-9 record out.  That team was crap.   

Last, I agree, to a degree, he did win due to Brady.  Brady is the G.O.A.T.  However, this is much in the same manner as Bruce Arians is now considered a great coach because of Brady.  Just as Bill Walsh and Joe Montana benefitted from each other's greatness.  Yes, Bill benefitted from Tom's greatness and team friendly deals.  Tom also benefitted from Bill's greatness (for example Superbowl 36) and having a defense that was Top 10 in points allowed during 16 of his 19 seasons.  8 times  he had a Top 5 defense in points allowed.  

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Let's not forget that the Bucs built probably the best team that Brady's ever had around him. I can't think of a better Pats team, seems like they were never nearly as strong on both sides of the ball.

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1 hour ago, isired said:

Let's not forget that the Bucs built probably the best team that Brady's ever had around him. I can't think of a better Pats team, seems like they were never nearly as strong on both sides of the ball.

Thanks to their GM...........Bellichick 

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On 10/14/2021 at 12:01 AM, JoJoTownsell1 said:

Thanks to their GM...........Bellichick 

You are not wrong on that.

On 10/13/2021 at 10:01 PM, isired said:

Let's not forget that the Bucs built probably the best team that Brady's ever had around him. I can't think of a better Pats team, seems like they were never nearly as strong on both sides of the ball.

The 2007 and 2016 teams were pretty good on both sides of the ball.    I think defensively the 2016 Patriots were better, but man to man comparison on offense...the Bucs win.   You have to like his receivers now.  Moss was great and Welker was in his prime.  However, Evans, Godwin and Brown probably beat any Patriots trio.  

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On 10/12/2021 at 11:38 AM, FidelioJet said:

No, he's not.  He has one more win on a team that is worlds better than the Jets.

I am very grateful Mac Jones is not our QB of the future.  He's the QB that will assure you languish in mediocrity for a decade.

I completely agree.  He’s Chad 2.0

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On 10/13/2021 at 1:35 PM, PFSIKH said:

This needs a little context.

First, the only correct answer is they needed each other.  

Second, those numbers have no context.  36-44 is not good.  I mean he did take over a 3-13 team.  He also did it in the era before the salary cap we love and loathe today.  I think during that time there was Plan B which if I remember correctly allowed the team to protect its top 30 or so players.  Then he took over a sinking Patriots team with salary cap issues. 

Third, his 2020 job might be his best coaching job after the 2001 and 2007 seasons.  Again, due to his GMIng, salary cap issues and COVID opt outs, he managed to coax a 7-9 record out.  That team was crap.   

Last, I agree, to a degree, he did win due to Brady.  Brady is the G.O.A.T.  However, this is much in the same manner as Bruce Arians is now considered a great coach because of Brady.  Just as Bill Walsh and Joe Montana benefitted from each other's greatness.  Yes, Bill benefitted from Tom's greatness and team friendly deals.  Tom also benefitted from Bill's greatness (for example Superbowl 36) and having a defense that was Top 10 in points allowed during 16 of his 19 seasons.  8 times  he had a Top 5 defense in points allowed.  

They were 3-13 but were a winning franchise that made 3 AFC Championship Games in the previous 5 seasons.  Bruce Coslet took over a 4-12 team that had one playoff win from 1983-1989(in 1986).  By year 2 he had the Jets in the playoffs and they were .500 in 2 of his 4 seasons.  Belichick had his only winning season in year 4.

 

Plan B started around 1990, full FA began in 1993.

 

The Patriots were 8-8 when he took over with their last losing season in 1995.  He went 5-11 year 1 then started 0-2 year 2 until Brady became the starter.

 

He got 2 wins against the pathetic Jets (1 of them was a miracle win), without the Jets they have 5 wins and remember that Newton played really well early last season.

 

They spent wildly in FA and are worse this year than last year.so far.

 

I'm sure Brady benefitted from Belichick but we have seen Belichick without Brady for over 8 seasons and it's not good.  In one season without Belichick Brady won a SB and in year 2 they look better than year 1.

The only postseason where the Pats D was "great" through most of the playoffs was 2001.  In that postseason they faced the raiders in a blizzard which hurt offenses then faced a kordell Stewart led O.  In the SB they were great for 3 qtrs then became the first D to ever blow a 14 point 4th qtr lead in a Super Bowl before Brady saved them.

 

Throughout Brady's time in NE his D's often came up small in big games only to be saved by brady and the offense.

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On 10/13/2021 at 11:01 PM, isired said:

Let's not forget that the Bucs built probably the best team that Brady's ever had around him. I can't think of a better Pats team, seems like they were never nearly as strong on both sides of the ball.

The pats had some really good rosters in the early 2000’s thanks to Pioli

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Belichick is doing what Jets should’ve with last several QBs. Dumb everything down, play max protect, and let the rookie develop confidence. Disregard the actual wins/losses. Instead we get all these too clever by half HCs and/or OCs who would rather prove how innovative they are with their over engineered and complex systems. Psst, OCs, guess what gets you a HC job? Developing a young QB who doesn’t look like dog turd casserole. 

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On 10/15/2021 at 4:13 PM, nyjunc said:

They were 3-13 but were a winning franchise that made 3 AFC Championship Games in the previous 5 seasons.  Bruce Coslet took over a 4-12 team that had one playoff win from 1983-1989(in 1986).  By year 2 he had the Jets in the playoffs and they were .500 in 2 of his 4 seasons.  Belichick had his only winning season in year 4.

Plan B started around 1990, full FA began in 1993.

The Patriots were 8-8 when he took over with their last losing season in 1995.  He went 5-11 year 1 then started 0-2 year 2 until Brady became the starter.

He got 2 wins against the pathetic Jets (1 of them was a miracle win), without the Jets they have 5 wins and remember that Newton played really well early last season.

They spent wildly in FA and are worse this year than last year.so far.

I'm sure Brady benefitted from Belichick but we have seen Belichick without Brady for over 8 seasons and it's not good.  In one season without Belichick Brady won a SB and in year 2 they look better than year 1.

The only postseason where the Pats D was "great" through most of the playoffs was 2001.  In that postseason they faced the raiders in a blizzard which hurt offenses then faced a kordell Stewart led O.  In the SB they were great for 3 qtrs then became the first D to ever blow a 14 point 4th qtr lead in a Super Bowl before Brady saved them.

Throughout Brady's time in NE his D's often came up small in big games only to be saved by brady and the offense.

They were 3-13 but were a winning franchise that made 3 AFC Championship Games in the previous 5 seasons. - This is not relevant.  The 3-13 team that was outscored by over two TDs a game was not the one playing in any of those AFC Championship games.  Plus, Coslet made it to the playoffs as an 8-8 team.  It is not like the Jets were 12-4.  Again, that is not relevant, that is a totally different team.  In year two of his Patriots' tenure, Belichick won a ring.  Different teams with different situations.

The Patriots were 8-8 when he took over with their last losing season in 1995.   Again, this is not relevant.  The Patriots were an 11 win team in 96.  Then a 10 win team.  Then a 9 win team.  Then 8 wins as you stated.  See the direction the team is headed?  He did take over an 8 win team with a lot of salary cap problems.    He purged and started a rebuild.

2020.  Again, I think this is one of his best jobs.  He lost the G.O.A.T.  He lost players to FA and COVID opt outs.  No one that saw that team would confuse it with a good team.  The offense was devoid of talent.  The defense could not stop the run, but it had the 7th rated D in points and won 7 games.  It could have been a .500 team, but is also could have been a 5 win team.

2021.  Worse?  No.  Good?  No.  As Par$ells stated many years ago, "you are what your record says you are".  They are 2-4.  The OL has been terrible.  The RBs have put the ball on the ground too much.  The team has gotten too many penalties.  (62 last year; 36 already this year).  There is hope though.  Mac has looked good.  He is not the second coming of Brady, but he looks like an actual NFL QB unlike Cam.  

Playoffs.  If you are going to cherry pick, how about this:  Brady's scoring drives in 2001 Superbowl.  After Rams' TO, scored TD on a 5 play 40 yard drive.  After a Rams' TO, scored a FG on a 5 play 14 yard drive.  The bottomline, the Rams' offense whioch averaged 31 points a game was held to 17 points.  More importantly it was held to three when Brady's drives consisted of punt, punt, punt, punt, TD punt, punt, FG and 4th quarter drives of three and out, three and out before a game ending FG.  I will not even get into the Giants' Superbowls.  

Again, they needed each other.

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On 10/19/2021 at 11:59 AM, PFSIKH said:

They were 3-13 but were a winning franchise that made 3 AFC Championship Games in the previous 5 seasons. - This is not relevant.  The 3-13 team that was outscored by over two TDs a game was not the one playing in any of those AFC Championship games.  Plus, Coslet made it to the playoffs as an 8-8 team.  It is not like the Jets were 12-4.  Again, that is not relevant, that is a totally different team.  In year two of his Patriots' tenure, Belichick won a ring.  Different teams with different situations.

The Patriots were 8-8 when he took over with their last losing season in 1995.   Again, this is not relevant.  The Patriots were an 11 win team in 96.  Then a 10 win team.  Then a 9 win team.  Then 8 wins as you stated.  See the direction the team is headed?  He did take over an 8 win team with a lot of salary cap problems.    He purged and started a rebuild.

2020.  Again, I think this is one of his best jobs.  He lost the G.O.A.T.  He lost players to FA and COVID opt outs.  No one that saw that team would confuse it with a good team.  The offense was devoid of talent.  The defense could not stop the run, but it had the 7th rated D in points and won 7 games.  It could have been a .500 team, but is also could have been a 5 win team.

2021.  Worse?  No.  Good?  No.  As Par$ells stated many years ago, "you are what your record says you are".  They are 2-4.  The OL has been terrible.  The RBs have put the ball on the ground too much.  The team has gotten too many penalties.  (62 last year; 36 already this year).  There is hope though.  Mac has looked good.  He is not the second coming of Brady, but he looks like an actual NFL QB unlike Cam.  

Playoffs.  If you are going to cherry pick, how about this:  Brady's scoring drives in 2001 Superbowl.  After Rams' TO, scored TD on a 5 play 40 yard drive.  After a Rams' TO, scored a FG on a 5 play 14 yard drive.  The bottomline, the Rams' offense whioch averaged 31 points a game was held to 17 points.  More importantly it was held to three when Brady's drives consisted of punt, punt, punt, punt, TD punt, punt, FG and 4th quarter drives of three and out, three and out before a game ending FG.  I will not even get into the Giants' Superbowls.  

Again, they needed each other.

Belichick didn't have a winning record(his only winning record) until year 4.  If he finished 8-8 and missed the playoffs I'd give you that point.

 

Yep, they were getting worse by 1 game each season until Belichick took over and they got worse by 3 games then started 0-2 before Brady stepped in and saved the franchise and the HCs career.

Don't forget that the core of that first championship team was inherited.

 

He won 5 games against teams other than the Jets, Adam Gase won 7 a year earlier.

They did a great job yesterday but their 3 wins are over the Jets and the Texans.

 

The Rams weren't scoring 31 a game in NFC championship games and SBs with that team.  They only scored 23 in the SB 2 years earlier in the the 99 & 01 NFC championships and the Titan SB they averaged 20 PPG, NE allowed 17.  They did a great job for 3 qtrs but had an historic 4th qtr collapse before Brady saved them.

 

You can say they needed each other but without Brady Belichick has 6 losing seasons in 8 years with just 1 wild card app, without Belichick in 1 season Brady won a Super Bowl.  Did they help each other? Sure but Belichick needed Brady more than Brady needed Belichick.

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3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Belichick didn't have a winning record(his only winning record) until year 4.  If he finished 8-8 and missed the playoffs I'd give you that point.

 

Yep, they were getting worse by 1 game each season until Belichick took over and they got worse by 3 games then started 0-2 before Brady stepped in and saved the franchise and the HCs career.

Don't forget that the core of that first championship team was inherited.

 

He won 5 games against teams other than the Jets, Adam Gase won 7 a year earlier.

They did a great job yesterday but their 3 wins are over the Jets and the Texans.

 

The Rams weren't scoring 31 a game in NFC championship games and SBs with that team.  They only scored 23 in the SB 2 years earlier in the the 99 & 01 NFC championships and the Titan SB they averaged 20 PPG, NE allowed 17.  They did a great job for 3 qtrs but had an historic 4th qtr collapse before Brady saved them.

 

You can say they needed each other but without Brady Belichick has 6 losing seasons in 8 years with just 1 wild card app, without Belichick in 1 season Brady won a Super Bowl.  Did they help each other? Sure but Belichick needed Brady more than Brady needed Belichick.

Again, cherry picking your points.

He took over a bad team.  A team whose point differential was historically bad.  He doubled their wins and got them to 6 wins.  All the while doing it in a system designed to suppress player movement.  

I can only spell it out so much.  The Pete Carroll Patriots had salary cap issues,  He had to gut the team to get the cap back to manageable.  You can ramble on about less wins, but the nuance is there whether you choose to recognize it.  You can not ring the bell that the team gave up all those 4th quarter points and also the core of the team he inherited.  He did inherit a lot of players, but 2/3 of the starters had turned over.  

What does the 1999 Superbowl have to do with anything?  In 2001, the Rams scored 45 against the 5th ranked defense.  Then the Rans scored and 29 getting against the 2nd ranked defense.  The Rams had 3 until scoring a TD with a minute left in the third. 

Brady vs. Belichick.  Does Brady have 7 Superbowl rings without Belichick?  No.  He has one.  If Belichick stayed with Drew does, he have 6?  No way.  The D was pretty good, he might have two.   The early Superbowl success was largely Belichick and the D.  Holding the Rams.  Holding the Colts to 17 points over two playoff games, but when needed Brady delivered.  The later Superbowl success I think Brady deserves more credit. Down 24-14 to the Seahawks.  He was perfect.  Down 28-3, he was perfect.  Both comebacks had defensive help, but Brady had zero room for error.

Again, they needed each other. 
 

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