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Belichick without Brady...


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20 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Bill Belichick in 8 full seasons without the best QB of all time has 6 losing seasons and 1 wild card playoff appearance.  

Don't a great job this year under absolutely perfect circumstances.  We'll see if they can sustain this.

Bill Belichick has six Super Bowl Championships and nine Super Bowl appearances, and you decided to harp on when he was the coach of the Browns, and his first year with the Patriots? Do we not remember when Matt Cassel went 10-5 in the year that Brady was out? Was that "absolutely perfect circumstances?" He had a down year when eight of his players opted out for COVID in addition to losing the all-time greatest QB, and you are going to focus on that instead of him regrouping and winning the division with a rookie QB the following year? 

This is not an argument you can win. Bill Belichick is the greatest modern day head coach, and possibly the greatest head coach of all time. 

 

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8 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Bill Belichick has six Super Bowl Championships and nine Super Bowl appearances, and you decided to harp on when he was the coach of the Browns, and his first year with the Patriots? Do we not remember when Matt Cassel went 10-5 in the year that Brady was out? Was that "absolutely perfect circumstances?" He had a down year when eight of his players opted out for COVID in addition to losing the all-time greatest QB, and you are going to focus on that instead of him regrouping and winning the division with a rookie QB the following year? 

This is not an argument you can win. Bill Belichick is the greatest modern day head coach, and possibly the greatest head coach of all time. 

 

But the truth is just so distressing emotionally!

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16 minutes ago, jgb said:

But the truth is just so distressing emotionally!

I've never seen such mental gymnastics and twisting oneself into a pretzel to convince themself that Belichick is not a football genius. We seem to forget that Belichick had a hand in the Giants winning two Super Bowls, plus another appearance in the Super Bowl as the Assistant Head Coach/Defensive Back Coach with the Patriots under Parcells. The guy is a winner. Let's not forget his appearance in the AFC Championship when he was DC for the Jets. 

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4 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

I've never seen such mental gymnastics and twisting oneself into a pretzel to convince themself that Belichick is not a football genius. We seem to forget that Belichick had a hand in the Giants winning two Super Bowls, plus another appearance in the Super Bowl as the Assistant Head Coach/Defensive Back Coach with the Patriots under Parcells. The guy is a winner. Let's not forget his appearance in the AFC Championship when he was DC for the Jets. 

We've had practice with Sanchez/Geno/Sam and now we see the dark art being performed in defense of Zach, as well.

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40 minutes ago, jgb said:

We've had practice with Sanchez/Geno/Sam and now we see the dark art being performed in defense of Zach, as well.

I am not pleased with or encouraged by his abysmal start, so I demoted Zach from Balls Deep to Just The Tip. I'm not ready to pull out just yet, but the odor that is emanating from the endzone is making me second guess my decisions. 

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6 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Ok, so he's on par with Marv Levy 😂

 

 

 

Belichick beat Parcells at home with 2nd year Drew bledsoe at QB.  Belichick was 5-13 with prime Bledsoe.

Tom Landry coached in a completely different era talking over an expansion team.

you are bringing up Barry Switzer?  Come on.

the majority of new HCs take over bad teams, that's why those jobs are open but in his era successful HCs did not take until year 4 to have their first playoff/winning season and have losing seasons in 4 of 5 years.

the Ravens are very relevant, the franchise was very successful just before Belichick and very successful just after Belichick not we're mostly bad with Belichick.  That should tell you something.

 

Levy took over a 2-12 KC team and a buffalo team was that 2-14 the year before he took over (they were 2-7 during the year he took over).

 

Levy - Levy is in the Hall of Fame so Bill is not on his par until he retires and waits five years for his golden jacket.  As far as rings are concerned......  I know you are trying to make a point with Levy, but I am not sure what it is.  You can try misdirection by saying "3 of 5", but that is irrelevant.  Bill took over a 3-13 team in Cleveland.  The Browns team he took over was bad.  Again, in both cases during their first coaching gig, they took over bad teams and made them more competitive.  In their fifth year, Levy with the strike and Bill with the team move, their respective teams were nuked.  Ironically enough, when paired with a HofF QBs they both earned gold jackets.  

You mean 2nd year Bledsoe that led the league in passing yards?  That playoff game was his 29th career start.  Hardly a second year novice.  Again, why were the Patriots 5-11 his first year?  A little thing the called the salary cap.  Do you know how to show causation?  Look at Pete Carroll. Pete took over a young Patriots team that went to the Superbowl.  His first year the team regressed to 10 wins.  Then 9.  Then 8.  Bill did not take over a Superbowl team.  It was the one saddled with salary cap issues.  He gutted it and then spent money and won the Superbowl.    

You opened up Landry and Swtizer.  You brought up Coughlin and his AFC Championship like he operated in a vacuum.  A common theme in all your examples.  He did have an expansion team that operated during the salary cap era.  The Jaguars and Panthers were able to build a team with a far lesser concern for the salary cap than every other team.

Before Bill/After Bill. The Browns were 3-13 before Bill.  The Ravens were 16-31-1 immediately after Bill.  In year 4 After Bill, the Ravens were 8-8.  The one commonality between Bill and the Ravens?  Ozzie Newsome.    If anything Bill deserves credit for setting the Ravens up.  His trades the previous year set-up the Ravens new GM Newsome.  It allowed him to set a foundation.  Het he was able to draft two HofFers in the first round due to Bill.. 

New HCs from Bill's Cleveland era a little before or during.  Lindy Infante (24-40), but he did have that all important winning second season.  Joe Bugel (20-44) with the Cardinals.  Dick MacPherson  (8-24) with the Patriots.  Dan Henning (16-32) with the Chargers.  Ray Perins (19-41) with the Bucs.  David Shula (19-52) with the Bengals.  Sam Wyche (23-41) with the Bucs.  Jerry Glanville (27-37) with the Falcons to include a 2nd year winning season.  Fit him for a gold jacket.  June Jones (19-29) with the Falcons and a second year winning season golden jacket candidate.
 

 

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On 12/14/2021 at 9:49 AM, Scott Dierking said:

Only fools focus on what someone has not accomplished, rather than what someone has accomplished.

Here I will make this easier for you: Name a better head coach in the last 20 years, who has accomplished MORE that Belichick. 

He hasn't accomplished anything without the best QB in the history of the game

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On 12/14/2021 at 10:15 AM, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Bill Belichick has six Super Bowl Championships and nine Super Bowl appearances, and you decided to harp on when he was the coach of the Browns, and his first year with the Patriots? Do we not remember when Matt Cassel went 10-5 in the year that Brady was out? Was that "absolutely perfect circumstances?" He had a down year when eight of his players opted out for COVID in addition to losing the all-time greatest QB, and you are going to focus on that instead of him regrouping and winning the division with a rookie QB the following year? 

This is not an argument you can win. Bill Belichick is the greatest modern day head coach, and possibly the greatest head coach of all time. 

 

I'm discussing facts.  Between 2 teams and 8 full seasons which is an eternity in the NFL  has 6 losing seasons with just 1 wild card playoff appearance.  Other great HCs have won SBs with mediocre QBs, been to SBs, been to the playoffs consistently.  Belichick wouldn't even be a HC today is Brady didn't save his career

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Brady without BB sucks.  It's clear the longer he's away from BB the more his game is deteriorating.  He won last year with an allstar cast on both sides of the ball and he remebered enough of what BB taught him to be carried to a SB.  The longer he's away from BB the more he sucks in big spots.

Last night against a division rival in a game that might mean home field through the playoffs he put up a huge turd.  

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On 12/14/2021 at 10:47 AM, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

I've never seen such mental gymnastics and twisting oneself into a pretzel to convince themself that Belichick is not a football genius. We seem to forget that Belichick had a hand in the Giants winning two Super Bowls, plus another appearance in the Super Bowl as the Assistant Head Coach/Defensive Back Coach with the Patriots under Parcells. The guy is a winner. Let's not forget his appearance in the AFC Championship when he was DC for the Jets. 

I actually think a more relevant discussion would be Bill Parcels without Belichick..

Because he wasn't very good.

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On 12/14/2021 at 3:43 PM, PFSIKH said:

Levy - Levy is in the Hall of Fame so Bill is not on his par until he retires and waits five years for his golden jacket.  As far as rings are concerned......  I know you are trying to make a point with Levy, but I am not sure what it is.  You can try misdirection by saying "3 of 5", but that is irrelevant.  Bill took over a 3-13 team in Cleveland.  The Browns team he took over was bad.  Again, in both cases during their first coaching gig, they took over bad teams and made them more competitive.  In their fifth year, Levy with the strike and Bill with the team move, their respective teams were nuked.  Ironically enough, when paired with a HofF QBs they both earned gold jackets.  

You mean 2nd year Bledsoe that led the league in passing yards?  That playoff game was his 29th career start.  Hardly a second year novice.  Again, why were the Patriots 5-11 his first year?  A little thing the called the salary cap.  Do you know how to show causation?  Look at Pete Carroll. Pete took over a young Patriots team that went to the Superbowl.  His first year the team regressed to 10 wins.  Then 9.  Then 8.  Bill did not take over a Superbowl team.  It was the one saddled with salary cap issues.  He gutted it and then spent money and won the Superbowl.    

You opened up Landry and Swtizer.  You brought up Coughlin and his AFC Championship like he operated in a vacuum.  A common theme in all your examples.  He did have an expansion team that operated during the salary cap era.  The Jaguars and Panthers were able to build a team with a far lesser concern for the salary cap than every other team.

Before Bill/After Bill. The Browns were 3-13 before Bill.  The Ravens were 16-31-1 immediately after Bill.  In year 4 After Bill, the Ravens were 8-8.  The one commonality between Bill and the Ravens?  Ozzie Newsome.    If anything Bill deserves credit for setting the Ravens up.  His trades the previous year set-up the Ravens new GM Newsome.  It allowed him to set a foundation.  Het he was able to draft two HofFers in the first round due to Bill.. 

New HCs from Bill's Cleveland era a little before or during.  Lindy Infante (24-40), but he did have that all important winning second season.  Joe Bugel (20-44) with the Cardinals.  Dick MacPherson  (8-24) with the Patriots.  Dan Henning (16-32) with the Chargers.  Ray Perins (19-41) with the Bucs.  David Shula (19-52) with the Bengals.  Sam Wyche (23-41) with the Bucs.  Jerry Glanville (27-37) with the Falcons to include a 2nd year winning season.  Fit him for a gold jacket.  June Jones (19-29) with the Falcons and a second year winning season golden jacket candidate.
 

 

Again, coaches usually take over bad teams.  That's why those jobs are available.   Saying they were 3-13 doesn't help but it is convenient how you ignore he took over a of. 500 team loaded with talent in NE then went 5-13 before Brady became his starter.

He led the league in yards along with leading the league in attempts with a 57% completion percentage and TWENTY SEVEN Ints.  Man, he was great😂😂

I can confidently say current Belichick would not go 5-11 in 2000.  The Belichick at the time who was not a good HC did, Brady bought him time to develop into a good HC.  The 2000 Pats had more than enough talent to be a playoff contender but he went 5-13 in his first 18 games with them.

No, before Bill the Browns were a top franchise in the AFC making 3 AFC Championship Games in 5 years, after the Ravens became SB champions within 5 years after they got rid of all of Belichick's personnel mistakes and rebuilt the franchise.

You are really bringing up Lindy Infante, Dan Henning and co?  😂😂😂😂

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3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I actually think a more relevant discussion would be Bill Parcels without Belichick..

Because he wasn't very good.

Parcells barely coached without Belichick.

1993-1995 NE

He took over the worst franchise in the sport which was not only a disaster on the field but even worse off it with awful ownership that wanted to move the team and a sexual harassment firestorm in the locker room. NE won a total of 14 games three previous 4 seasons, Parcells had them in the playoffs year 2 with 10 wins.

 

2003-2006 Dallas

The cowboys were stuck in mediocrity post dynasty. They were 5-11 three straight seasons then year 1 Parcells wins 10 games with QUINCY CARTER and makes the playoffs.  He had 3 winning seasons in my 4 years there with 2 playoff appearances.

 

The better comparison is playoff appearances without great QBs.

Parcells made the playoffs with 6 different non Hall of Fame QBs winning 2 Super Bowls, making a third and reaching 4 conference championship games.

Belichick made 1 wild card playoff appearance winning 1 home wild card game. Oh and he did it with a QB Parcells won a division title with(1st won since '69 for Jets) and made the AFC Championship Game.

 

QBs Parcells and Belichick shared.

 

Bledsoe:

5-13 with Belichick

44-37 with Parcells including 32-27 in NE, 12-10 in Dallas and 2 playoff apps with a Super Bowl appearance.

Vinny:

16-15 with Belichick with wild card playoff appearance

12-2 with Parcells(1 loss was after getting hurt in my 1st qtr of '99 opener) with division title and AFC Championship Game appearance

 

 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

I'm discussing facts.  Between 2 teams and 8 full seasons which is an eternity in the NFL  has 6 losing seasons with just 1 wild card playoff appearance.  Other great HCs have won SBs with mediocre QBs, been to SBs, been to the playoffs consistently.  Belichick wouldn't even be a HC today is Brady didn't save his career

You're discussing sour grapes. 

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1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

Again, coaches usually take over bad teams.  That's why those jobs are available.   Saying they were 3-13 doesn't help but it is convenient how you ignore he took over a of. 500 team loaded with talent in NE then went 5-13 before Brady became his starter.

He led the league in yards along with leading the league in attempts with a 57% completion percentage and TWENTY SEVEN Ints.  Man, he was great😂😂

I can confidently say current Belichick would not go 5-11 in 2000.  The Belichick at the time who was not a good HC did, Brady bought him time to develop into a good HC.  The 2000 Pats had more than enough talent to be a playoff contender but he went 5-13 in his first 18 games with them.

No, before Bill the Browns were a top franchise in the AFC making 3 AFC Championship Games in 5 years, after the Ravens became SB champions within 5 years after they got rid of all of Belichick's personnel mistakes and rebuilt the franchise.

You are really bringing up Lindy Infante, Dan Henning and co?  😂😂😂😂

Please, use more crying laughing emojis in your arguments. It really helps.

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Bill Belichick went 11-5 in a season with Matt Cassel at QB. (Matt Cassel went 10-5)

Bill Belichick is currently 9-5 with Mac Jones and is playing for the number 1 seed in the AFC. 

Any argument that Bill Belichick is somehow pedestrian without Brady is laughable. Every great coach has a worse record when their star QB is out. I understand that having the greatest QB in modern history, and maybe even all of history makes your job easier but coaching great players does not guarantee victory. This prick scours the rule books for obscure rules, and he uses them to his advantage. He knows the rules, and he makes sure that his players know how to play the game and where to be at all times. If your team has a weakness, he exploits it. The f*cking guy is a football genius. His masterpiece in Buffalo is the most recent example. It's these types of games that set him apart from other coaches. 

You don't have to like him, and you can hate him to your heart's content, but you can't deny his coaching prowess. The guy has been to an insane number of Super Bowls on three different teams in three different coaching capacities. I didn't even count his AFC championship appearances. 

Just stop it, please. 

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4 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Again, coaches usually take over bad teams.  That's why those jobs are available.   Saying they were 3-13 doesn't help but it is convenient how you ignore he took over a of. 500 team loaded with talent in NE then went 5-13 before Brady became his starter.

He led the league in yards along with leading the league in attempts with a 57% completion percentage and TWENTY SEVEN Ints.  Man, he was great😂😂

I can confidently say current Belichick would not go 5-11 in 2000.  The Belichick at the time who was not a good HC did, Brady bought him time to develop into a good HC.  The 2000 Pats had more than enough talent to be a playoff contender but he went 5-13 in his first 18 games with them.

No, before Bill the Browns were a top franchise in the AFC making 3 AFC Championship Games in 5 years, after the Ravens became SB champions within 5 years after they got rid of all of Belichick's personnel mistakes and rebuilt the franchise.

You are really bringing up Lindy Infante, Dan Henning and co?  😂😂😂😂

You:  Again, coaches usually take over bad teams.  

3-13 Cleveland hires Bill as coach.

Also you:  Saying they were 3-13 doesn't help

1999 and 2000 Patriots.  Again, I have addressed it.  You conveniently ignore the fact the Patriots had cap issues.  You also ignore that the team was getting worse.  A regression from a Superbowl team, to a division winner, to barely making the playoffs and finally to a .500 team that was nowhere near the playoffs.  If Pete stayed, it was going to be a continued regression.

Brady bought him time.  Nope.  That is how experience works.  The more repetition you have, the better you should get.  Bill has always been a good coach.  It is fair to criticize Belichick the GM, but not his coaching.   Go really look at his Cleveland days.  The team was competitive.  As I have said before, Bill admitted to making mistakes in Cleveland.  His coaching was not one of them.  Like with Levy, a smart coach is going to learn from their mistakes.  It also helps to luck into a generational talent at QB.  Never denied that, but to say Brady bought him time is dumb.  

Again, cookie cutting your points.  The Browns were in 3 of 5 AFC Championships.  That is true.  You know what else is true?  The Browns were also 3-13 immediately preceding Bill's tenure. That is by far more relevant.  Yes, the Ravens won a Superbowl 5 years after Bill, but what were they immediately after Bill in 96?  4-12.  If your point is Ozzie Newsome is a better GM, probably so.  It would be relevant if Marchibroda even went 8-8 with the team, but what happened 5 years later is not.  

That you miss the point about Lindy Infante and Dan Henning is not surprising.  Those are HCs, similar to Bill, that took over bad teams and bombed.  That is more relevant then cherry picking a random coach who had success for one year than ultimately bombed.  
 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/20/2021 at 8:10 AM, Biggs said:

Name the great QB that Bill Parcells developed.   Bellichick developed the GOAT from a late drafted mediocre college talent.  He is now about to do it again.  Just a little perspective.  

He didn't develop anything, he hit the lottery with Brady and Jones isn't very good.  They aren't going to be one and done in the playoffs because of their QB

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On 12/20/2021 at 8:35 AM, Scott Dierking said:

Tell me your best coach in the last 20 years. 

Rex, Herm and even mangini were all better than Belichick has been without Brady.  Rex even beat Belichick WITH Brady in the playoffs on the road with Mark Sanchez as his QB.

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On 12/20/2021 at 12:04 PM, PFSIKH said:

You:  Again, coaches usually take over bad teams.  

3-13 Cleveland hires Bill as coach.

Also you:  Saying they were 3-13 doesn't help

1999 and 2000 Patriots.  Again, I have addressed it.  You conveniently ignore the fact the Patriots had cap issues.  You also ignore that the team was getting worse.  A regression from a Superbowl team, to a division winner, to barely making the playoffs and finally to a .500 team that was nowhere near the playoffs.  If Pete stayed, it was going to be a continued regression.

Brady bought him time.  Nope.  That is how experience works.  The more repetition you have, the better you should get.  Bill has always been a good coach.  It is fair to criticize Belichick the GM, but not his coaching.   Go really look at his Cleveland days.  The team was competitive.  As I have said before, Bill admitted to making mistakes in Cleveland.  His coaching was not one of them.  Like with Levy, a smart coach is going to learn from their mistakes.  It also helps to luck into a generational talent at QB.  Never denied that, but to say Brady bought him time is dumb.  

Again, cookie cutting your points.  The Browns were in 3 of 5 AFC Championships.  That is true.  You know what else is true?  The Browns were also 3-13 immediately preceding Bill's tenure. That is by far more relevant.  Yes, the Ravens won a Superbowl 5 years after Bill, but what were they immediately after Bill in 96?  4-12.  If your point is Ozzie Newsome is a better GM, probably so.  It would be relevant if Marchibroda even went 8-8 with the team, but what happened 5 years later is not.  

That you miss the point about Lindy Infante and Dan Henning is not surprising.  Those are HCs, similar to Bill, that took over bad teams and bombed.  That is more relevant then cherry picking a random coach who had success for one year than ultimately bombed.  
 

You conveniently ignore that the Pats had loads of talent on the 2000 Patriots and were 5-13 before Brady took over and just like magic they started winning.

 

Without Brady taking over when he did the seat was getting really warm for Belichick.  If bledsoe stays healthy and starts into '02 that's no way Belichick lasts past the '02 season and his HC career would have been over.

Bill was always a great assistant coach but as a HC he was less than mediocre without Brady and despite a good season good year(they've come back to reality recently) his overall resume without Brady is poor.

Ok, so bill is comparable to Lindy Infante and Dan Henning without Brady.  I agree with you but he's probably a little better😁

 

9 seasons without Brady, he's going to the playoffs for only the 2nd time and that thanks in large part to a huge spending spree in the offseason and an absolutely perfect schedule where overall it was weak but when they played tougher teams they had the benefit of injuries, Covid or ridiculous weather conditions.

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3 minutes ago, Biggs said:

🤣🤣🤣🤣

You think he "developed" Brady to save a franchise 3 games into year 2?  Yeah, it was all BB who has a long history of developing QBs 😂

He hit the lottery, there were crazy circumstances at Michigan with Brady and Drew Henson that undervalued Brady.  He drafted him with hopes he'd  be a backup some day.  He hit the lottery.

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56 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Rex, Herm and even mangini were all better than Belichick has been without Brady.  Rex even beat Belichick WITH Brady in the playoffs on the road with Mark Sanchez as his QB.

Judging a coach based upon what he was like with or without a certain player is one of the most ludicrous premises I can imagine. Especially when that coach has over 20+ years of head coaching experience.

Saying that a coach that has won 6 Super Bowl titles is not a good coach is laughable. Listen to yourself. You come off as a scorned lover. 

I am done with this stupid discussion. Please stop.

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1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

You think he "developed" Brady to save a franchise 3 games into year 2?  Yeah, it was all BB who has a long history of developing QBs 😂

He hit the lottery, there were crazy circumstances at Michigan with Brady and Drew Henson that undervalued Brady.  He drafted him with hopes he'd  be a backup some day.  He hit the lottery.

🤣🤣🤣🤣

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 1/3/2022 at 7:59 AM, UntouchableCrew said:

I'm not making an argument. I'm making fun of you.

That's because you don't have an argument and cannot refute anything I post but I am glad you are making yourself feel better

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On 1/3/2022 at 8:17 AM, Scott Dierking said:

Judging a coach based upon what he was like with or without a certain player is one of the most ludicrous premises I can imagine. Especially when that coach has over 20+ years of head coaching experience.

Saying that a coach that has won 6 Super Bowl titles is not a good coach is laughable. Listen to yourself. You come off as a scorned lover. 

I am done with this stupid discussion. Please stop.

I'm sorry the facts don't support your opinion.  He's now coached 9 seasons without the greatest QB of all time.  He's well under .500, he has 6 losing seasons and just 2 WC playoff appearances and just 1 WC playoff win which came home in the old days when a wild card team could be the home team.

Tom Brady in less than 2 full seasons has 5 playoff wins, a division title, a conference championship and a Super Bowl title.

In 2 postseason losses without Brady Belichick has lost by 20 & 30 points 

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