Would you still draft Zach if we could have a do-over?

[Rangers9]

47 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

SF would have taken him.  We likely would have traded out of 2 with SF and they take Wilson.

We’ll you’re saying they would have taken Zach over Lance. It was a real surprise when they took Lance esp after trading up and giving up a lot of resources. I thought SF gave up too much for him but he’s looking not that bad. He actually probably has the best chance to be another great running QB. 

[DoubleDown]

I would do what I advocated to do at the time.  Draft Wilson at #2, keep Darnold for his final year (do not exercise his 5th year option), and start the year with Darnold.  Let Wilson sit and learn until at least the bye week, if not the entire season.

Week 1 was very damaging for Wilson.  I don't think he has fully recovered yet.  Many of the bad habits he formed after Week 1, which he wasn't showing in camp or preseason at all, are still happening (not stepping into throws, not trusting the pocket, not consistently going through progressions).  Luckily the pass protection has stabilized in the past couple of weeks.  The Jets were well on their way to ruining Wilson completely.

[Green Ghost]

I’d have gotten rid of Sam, and signed either Minshew or  Trubisky in that order. The only QB in this draft I thought was any good was Trevor, and we blew our chance of getting him. if we couldn’t get him, just throw one of those two out there hoping to catch lightning in a bottle while we developed this horrible roster.
Fields was a very distant second in my mind. There were just too many questions about both him and Zach for me to consider them or any of the other ‘21 QB class.

With Zach, it was the level of competition, his only good season was the very strange ‘20 Covid affected mess that made evaluating all these kids so difficult. Aside from that, there are other less reasonable reasons why I’d have avoided him such as… He looks 12 years old, I just got the vibe he and his people wanted SF instead of NY. (and I can’t lie, I think he was right.)

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, JiFapono said:

Tough question but interesting, it's way too soon to say but I'll go ahead and play for the fun.  I voted No.

Bringing a rookie QB into this environment was a colossal mistake.  Bringing in Zach Wilson who was/is an enormous project and not ready to start in the NFL was doubling down on an already, colossal mistake.  Saddling him with a rookie HC and rookie OC w/ nobody in the building who has ever developed a QB (RIP Gregg Knapp) w/ a bottom 3 roster in the league was tripling down on an already, colossal mistake.

My preference was the trade down, get a kings ransom for the pick and actually do what they never did since drafting him and actually build around Sam Darnold. 

If QB was a must, than yes, I would have preferred a different prospect but even in that situation, I would have always entered the season with that QB holding a clip board for the year and learning the position from the bench. 

This current situation, is ****ed.

I agree with a lot of this, but, do you do Sam Darnold's option?  After 3 years of play at that level, you're willing to give him 2 more?

I don't know what my answer is, because I don't watch enough college ball.  The stuff we're seeing with Wilson, should we have seen this all coming?  Is he, 'not ready' or 'not good.'  If we think he's 'not ready', then I absolutely would draft him again, but I'd also have someone else starting this season.  If we should have seen this coming because he's just 'not good' outside of the flag football stuff, then obviously I'd take the do-over.  You can't base it on 5 games though, because there's to many reasons why he could be performing this way - you still have to lean on your evaluation of him in college.  Personally, I was unimpressed by his bowl game, so I had my doubts.

[ZachEY]

5 minutes ago, DoubleDown said:

I would do what I advocated to do at the time.  Draft Wilson at #2, keep Darnold for his final year (do not exercise his 5th year option), and start the year with Darnold.  Let Wilson sit and learn until at least the bye week, if not the entire season.

Week 1 was very damaging for Wilson.  I don't think he has fully recovered yet.  Many of the bad habits he formed after Week 1, which he wasn't showing in camp or preseason at all, are still happening (not stepping into throws, not trusting the pocket, not consistently going through progressions).  Luckily the pass protection has stabilized in the past couple of weeks.  The Jets were well on their way to ruining Wilson completely.

If you're drafting Wilson, there was no reason not to get the 2nd rounder for Darnold.  You just replace Darnold with Trubisky or similar.

[maury77]

Is there an option for f*ck no?

To be a good NFL QB, you have to at a bare minimum be able to make consistent, accurate throws from a tight pocket. If you can do that and add another feature, such as mobility (Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, Russell Wilson), arm strength (Josh Allen, Mahomes), brains (Tom Brady), off platform throws (Rodgers, Mahomes), you have a very good chance to be elite. 

Zach Wilson cannot make consistent, accurate throws from a tight pocket. This is why I did not want to pick him. Right now, for him to succeed, he needs either a huge pocket, a roll out to his right or his receiver needs to outplay the CB. When the pocket is tight, he drifts back instead of stepping up in the pocket. This was his film in college. In 2020, BYU had an awesome line and his receivers outplayed the CBs on jump balls. Now that he is in the NFL, the pockets aren't the same and his WRs can't out-talent the CBs on a consistent basis (or ever if we are being honest about the WRs on the roster so far this year). 

Many of you keep harping about his talent. Where is he elite talent wises?

Size? no. 

Arm strength? Above average, but its not in the Mahomes/Josh Allen class either

Accuracy? No. 

Mobility? No. 

Pocket presence? No.

Reading the defense? No. 

Making off platform throws? Above average, but he's not Mahomes. 

Is everything bad about the offense due to Wilson? Of course not. Could the team have helped him out better? Absolutely. Can he still improve, yes. But everything I disliked about him pre draft has manifested itself. As a person that follows the team (I intentionally did not use the word "fan"), I hope he gets better, but I wouldn't bet money on it. 

[nyjets1969]

Like I said previous post I would not draft him after Lawrence there is a big drop off none these QBs are a first round pick I keep Sam trade back to 12 with the 49ers pick up 3 first rounders take Vera Tucker at 12  then take Najee Harris with the next pick. Then I take Trask, Monds,  or Mills, in the second round as a QB of the future just in case Darnold continues to suck. Since didn't trade up for Vera Tucker I draft another OG and OT to really bulk the line. I be focusing on trench warfare using big physical back to take pressure off of Darnold and build solid foundation for my QB of the future in Trask, Mills, or Monds.

[y2k8]

 

Threads like this is why it is hard to take anyone very seriously on this board.

I was a "keep Sam, draft Pitts" guy and after yesterday's games - my takeaway was "drafting Wilson was the right decision". 

Sam is at best an average NFL QB. 

Zach has plated 5 games. Let's chill out.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

Glad to see that the majority of the people on this board are sane. Too bad the vocal minority make the biggest stink.

[jgb]

14 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

If you're drafting Wilson, there was no reason not to get the 2nd rounder for Darnold.  You just replace Darnold with Trubisky or similar.

Yeah don't understand -- even if you loved Zach as a prospect -- the decision to go all in on him with zilch behind him. Especially considering how cheaply Trubisky/Minshew could've been had. It's either extreme arrogance, gross incompetence, or plain old stupidity.

[kdels62]

I swear

[The Crusher]

1 hour ago, JiFapono said:

You are watching another season of Sam....but worse.

Not even close. Sam cold gave up last year and it’s the damn fear in his eyes that made him impossible for me to watch.  Kid was and is broken. At least Zach still got some game in him, appreciate his piss and vigor. Plays like shit, but at least leaves it out there. 

[hawk]

I voted no, but not because of a like or dislike Wilson.  He is a rookie who is playing very poorly, and who knows if it is him, the coach, or some other excuse made up.

This team was not ready for a QB to succeed.  I may be on the short side, but I like the teams direction, however, the team had so many holes.

I would have stuck with Sam, not because of Sam, but for either a placeholder or to give him an opportunity with some talent.  And, let's face facts, the team had been void of talent for a very long time.

I would have been torn to draft Pitts or trade back for additional picks.

How it plays out from their would be different obviosuly.

That being said, I think Wilson has the talent, and I think he could be a top flight QB.

 

[rangerous]

wilson's play won the titans game.  darnold loses that game hands down.  the jets would've been tethered to darnold without still having enough pieces in place to make it all work and his money would have taken away from getting those pieces.

[DoubleDown]

36 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

If you're drafting Wilson, there was no reason not to get the 2nd rounder for Darnold.  You just replace Darnold with Trubisky or similar.

Fair enough, but keeping Darnold is the easier solution.  He's already on the roster, and he's cheap.  I agree the 2nd rounder is nice to have, but the development of Wilson is paramount to all.  With Douglas' track record, what exactly are we going to get with that 2nd rounder anyway?

The funny thing is Darnold and Wilson have very similar skill sets.  So creating a system that Darnold can run and Wilson can learn for the future would be rather straightforward to execute.

[munchmemory]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

Wouldn't have drafted him at all. Trubisky would be starting QB of the Jets if I was in charge this off season.

I would have gone after Trubisky and Minshew.  Then let them fight it out during camp.

 

[Pac]

Would have kept Sam and traded down but its still way too early to draw any definitive conclusions about Skippy.  Right now he sucks but I'm still optimistic.  The biggest mistake was anointing him the starter and refusing to sign a qb capable of playing.  Such gross mismanagement.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, munchmemory said:

I would have gone after Trubisky and Minshew.  Then let them fight it out during camp.

 

Unclear when Minshew became available but yeah why not both

[doitny]

1 hour ago, JiFapono said:

You are watching another season of Sam....but worse.

well according to Sam fans in 4 years we will have a great QB...LMFAO

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, doitny said:

well according to Sam fans in 4 years we will have a great QB...LMFAO

Some QBs can look competent with a great supporting cast -- Goff, Teddy B, maybe even Sam -- but teams also move on from those guys when they have the opportunity to bring in a potential game changer. 

[JustInFudge]

38 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

I agree with a lot of this, but, do you do Sam Darnold's option?  After 3 years of play at that level, you're willing to give him 2 more?

I don't know what my answer is, because I don't watch enough college ball.  The stuff we're seeing with Wilson, should we have seen this all coming?  Is he, 'not ready' or 'not good.'  If we think he's 'not ready', then I absolutely would draft him again, but I'd also have someone else starting this season.  If we should have seen this coming because he's just 'not good' outside of the flag football stuff, then obviously I'd take the do-over.  You can't base it on 5 games though, because there's to many reasons why he could be performing this way - you still have to lean on your evaluation of him in college.  Personally, I was unimpressed by his bowl game, so I had my doubts.

The Panthers gave Sam, what?  24 mil for 2 years?   like 6 and then 18 next year?   Yes, I'd do that because it's not hamstringing you in anyway and even if you decided to pick a QB, he's just a slightly above average priced back up if you look at it over the lifetime of the deal. 

In regards to the evaluation of Zach predraft - I would just say, when you have a minute, look at the QB thread in the draft forum and the stuff @win4ever did breaking down film.  He was a mess and a lot of his tendencies were on full display.  The footwork, fading from the pocket, the hero balls, etc, all over his tape, huge red flags.  Then his legion of ball washers got caught up in the predraft hysteria nonsense and convinced themselves on sh*t that just was not real, the over the top Mahomes comparisons and Chris Simms saying he was QB1.  People started eating it up.  All pure bull sh*t if you actually watched how messy of a prospect he was but that's what happens these days. You'll see many of us exercising extreme caution or not wanting Zach because of everything we're seeing right now.  

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

The Panthers gave Sam, what?  24 mil for 2 years?   like 6 and then 18 next year?   Yes, I'd do that because it's not hamstringing you in anyway and even if you decided to pick a QB, he's just a slightly above average priced back up if you look at it over the lifetime of the deal. 

In regards to the evaluation of Zach predraft - I would just say, when you have a minute, look at the QB thread in the draft forum and the stuff @win4ever did breaking down film.  He was a mess and a lot of his tendencies were on full display.  The footwork, fading from the pocket, the hero balls, etc, all over his tape, huge red flags.  Then his legion of ball washers got caught up in the predraft hysteria nonsense and convinced themselves on sh*t that just was not real, the over the top Mahomes comparisons and Chris Simms saying he was QB1.  People started eating it up.  All pure bull sh*t if you actually watched how messy of a prospect he was but that's what happens these days. You'll see many of us exercising extreme caution or not wanting Zach because of everything we're seeing right now.  

Problem with this plan is that Sam had already shown that he's a QB who is at best a product of his environment and not one able to rise above his circumstances. He'd be better than Zach sure after 3 years in the league but Jets almost had to take the chance to get a difference maker. Too early to say for sure although it is clear to all that the early returns ain't good.

[JetBlue]

2 hours ago, Rhg1084 said:

Are you being serious or no? Does Wilson not have the arm strength? Allen struggled also with his accuracy and short passes also when he came in the league 

Amazing how short some folks memories are.  I can still remember all of the Josh Allen sucks posts we saw his rookie season and how he would never be much more than a "thrower" and good runner because he was so inaccurate.    

[JetBlue]

2 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

SF would have taken him.  We likely would have traded out of 2 with SF and they take Wilson.

We could have then had our choice of Fields, Lance or Jones.  

[Scott Dierking]

9 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

The Panthers gave Sam, what?  24 mil for 2 years?   like 6 and then 18 next year?   Yes, I'd do that because it's not hamstringing you in anyway and even if you decided to pick a QB, he's just a slightly above average priced back up if you look at it over the lifetime of the deal. 

In regards to the evaluation of Zach predraft - I would just say, when you have a minute, look at the QB thread in the draft forum and the stuff @win4ever did breaking down film.  He was a mess and a lot of his tendencies were on full display.  The footwork, fading from the pocket, the hero balls, etc, all over his tape, huge red flags.  Then his legion of ball washers got caught up in the predraft hysteria nonsense and convinced themselves on sh*t that just was not real, the over the top Mahomes comparisons and Chris Simms saying he was QB1.  People started eating it up.  All pure bull sh*t if you actually watched how messy of a prospect he was but that's what happens these days. You'll see many of us exercising extreme caution or not wanting Zach because of everything we're seeing right now.  

Hey, you, and I to a certain degree wanted Fields.  There are no guarantees. And the stories are not written yet. There were people[pounding their chests, this deep into Mayfield and Allen's tenure.

So much yet to see. The kids processing speed ins not NFL level yet and he has a case of the yips. 

[T0mShane]

2 hours ago, JiFapono said:

Tough question but interesting, it's way too soon to say but I'll go ahead and play for the fun.  I voted No

I voted Yes because Zack Wilson would far and away be the first overall pick in this year’s draft. 

[Jetsfan80]

Probably not.  My preference would now be to have ended up with Kyle Pitts (trading down as necessary, or just take him at # 2) and a bridge QB like Tyrod Taylor, Trubisky or Minshew.  Obviously, I'd have traded Darnold regardless.

I didn't realize how incredibly raw Wilson is, and unless he ends up a stud by year 3 that's not a great fit right now for this franchise with such a young GM/HC combo.  These guys weren't ready for a project at QB and that seems pretty clear at the moment. 

Also Wilson might not be very good so that's obviously an even bigger concern for me at the moment.  But let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say he could be very good.  We stull really have no idea what his long-term ceiling or floor are yet and that's kind of a scary proposition.  His unknown ceiling would only be exciting to me if we hadn't been through so many bad young QB's before.  I'm jaded.

[doitny]

its definitely too early to tell. but i voted yes..

i am looking at some of these ... keep Sam posts and that wouldn't work out for us... cause Sam is playing like well....Sam and add in that it looks like the college QB class for next year is doing bad... i heard they benched Rattler on Sat.

and you think JD is getting killed now by the fans....this board would be 1000% behind firing him right now if he kept Sam and he keeps making the same mistakes..

and getting a Trubinsky or Minshew to back up Wilson probably wouldn't be good either.. you would start them and they probably would be better than Zach right now... then you wouldn't want to play Wilson. but you have to right hes the #2 pick. but both of them aren't good QBs so if you get then and don't draft Zach then you just got a mediocre QB

 

[JetBlue]

8 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

The Panthers gave Sam, what?  24 mil for 2 years?   like 6 and then 18 next year?   Yes, I'd do that because it's not hamstringing you in anyway and even if you decided to pick a QB, he's just a slightly above average priced back up if you look at it over the lifetime of the deal. 

In regards to the evaluation of Zach predraft - I would just say, when you have a minute, look at the QB thread in the draft forum and the stuff @win4ever did breaking down film.  He was a mess and a lot of his tendencies were on full display.  The footwork, fading from the pocket, the hero balls, etc, all over his tape, huge red flags.  Then his legion of ball washers got caught up in the predraft hysteria nonsense and convinced themselves on sh*t that just was not real, the over the top Mahomes comparisons and Chris Simms saying he was QB1.  People started eating it up.  All pure bull sh*t if you actually watched how messy of a prospect he was but that's what happens these days. You'll see many of us exercising extreme caution or not wanting Zach because of everything we're seeing right now.  

Nothing you said changes the fact that like all young quarterbacks in this draft, he had things to work on and clean up.   Have you seen Lawrence lately?  Tell me he looks much better and he was the consensus best quarterback in this draft.  Fields, who I know you are in love with, has looked decent and actually has a pretty good offensive team but he if he were on the the Jets team can you seriously think he would be any better under the current circumstances?  

The problem is the Knapp tragedy and the utter stupidity of not signing a veteran back up who even have started the first few games of the season so the kid could have been brought along slowly.    

[doitny]

11 minutes ago, jgb said:

Some QBs can look competent with a great supporting cast -- Goff, Teddy B, maybe even Sam -- but teams also move on from those guys when they have the opportunity to bring in a potential game changer. 

exactly, and that's why Trubinsky isn't in Chicago anymore. he like those you mentioned don't make there teams better...there teams make them better. and as you can see from yesterday with Sam sometimes you need your QB to stand up and carry you to victory...or not mess up and cost you one.

[kevinc855]

Starting him from Day 1 has always been my concern....after 5 weeks I have seen enough.

The kid is not ready. That doesn't mean he won't make a good or even great QB one day. He's just not ready now. 

[The Crusher]

7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Probably not.  My preference would now be to have ended up with Kyle Pitts (trading down as necessary, or just take him at # 2) and a bridge QB like Tyrod Taylor.  Obviously, I'd have traded Darnold regardless.

I didn't realize how incredibly raw Wilson is, and unless he ends up a stud by year 3 that's not a great fit right now for this franchise with such a young GM/HC combo.  These guys weren't ready for a project at QB and that seems pretty clear at the moment. 

Also Wilson might not be very good so that's obviously an even bigger concern for me at the moment.  But let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say he could be very good.  We stull really have no idea what his long-term ceiling or floor are yet and that's kind of a scary proposition.  His unknown ceiling would only be exciting to me if we hadn't been through so many bad young QB's before.  I'm jaded.

I'm ok with this, as long as it includes not watching Sam QB for us anymore I can work with it. 

[kevinc855]

1 hour ago, The Crusher said:

I honestly couldn’t have watched another season of Sam

Because watching this....is an upgrade? 

[mfmartin]

Of course you could also draft Zach in a lower position if he were to fall like to overall 6th or lower. Say the Jets traded down to 5 or 6. There weren't that many rumors about Zach with other teams at the time of the draft because the assumption was that JD would select him it wasn't a secret. But if JD had traded down would Zach have fallen? The assumption was you'd think he would have been top 5 even if the Jets had passed on him. 

The 49ers would have taken him


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[mfmartin]

In a redo I trade Darnold and the No. 2 pick and take Davis Mills in the second round.   I might have tried to sign Trubisky as a short term starter.  He's better than the entire QB draft class and Darnold.  

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