Jump to content

Would you still draft Zach if we could have a do-over?


Rangers9
 Share

Would you draft Zach Wilson at overall #2 if you could do-over today?  

175 members have voted

  1. 1. After watching Zach for 5 weeks would you take him at #2?

    • Still draft Zach at overall #2
    • I wouldn't draft Zach again, either select somebody else or trade the pick


Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Rhg1084 said:

Well I remember when all the QB experts on this board were proclaiming Allen as a bust too his rookie year, referring to him as a “running back”. Zach might not have the mobility Allen does but you can put his arm up there with anyone in league 

He sucked his first full 2 seasons in the league.  Sue us.  

And as @sec101row23 pointed out earlier in the thread, QB's don't tend to fix their accuracy issues at the pro level.  I'll take that a step further.  Allen's turnaround is historically unprecedented by any QB in NFL history.  His freakish athleticism and maniacal desire to improve his accuracy are incredibly rare traits that you can't count on. 

I.E. we have little to learn from Allen except to say taking a QB with freakish athleticism and a great work ethic, even if he's flawed otherwise, is a better bet than it used to be in the pros.  Though that trend started with Cam Newton, not Josh Allen.  Hence why I could have gotten behind drafting Trey Lance out of this past class.  I also could have gotten behind taking Lamar Jackson in 2018, even if I had no interest in Allen and Darnold was my # 1 choice out of the class.  At the time i just figured Jackson would be fun to watch if nothing else.  I had Jackson as my # 3 guy behind Darnold and Rosen.  Yeah, bad calls on those 2 also.  We all make them when it comes to QB's.  But I certainly had Jackson over Mayfield for the reasons I stated.

You cannot expect that kind of turnaround to happen with any young QB who struggles with accuracy in college along with their first 2 seasons in the pros.  Darnold bros are still waiting for him to fix his accuracy problems and it's never gonna happen for him.  This past week proved that.  

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

Hey, you, and I to a certain degree wanted Fields.  There are no guarantees. And the stories are not written yet. There were people[pounding their chests, this deep into Mayfield and Allen's tenure.

So much yet to see. The kids processing speed ins not NFL level yet and he has a case of the yips. 

The way this team has played I am really not sure any of the other quarterbacks drafted this year would be much better.   The real problem to me is not having a vet back up on the team as well as the passing of Greg Knapp.   We have to remember he played for BYU not Alabama.  The step up in talent from that to the NFL is huge and that is even if have a quality offensive line, which they definitely don't (McGovern sucks and Van Rotten is worse).    It is almost criminal in retrospect for Saleh to hand the offense over to a rookie first time OC, knowing you planned to start a rookie quarterback.   To not bring in any real "competition" at quarterback was also incredibly short sighted.  If he Zach had to sit out the first 4 or 5 games, by the time he started, hopefully the OL would have begun to jell and have some cohesiveness.  He would have been able to watch and observe and get a better sense of speed of the game.   At BYU he had all day to throw in some cases; here he can barely drop back before he off running for his life.   When he does get time, definitely has to learn to get rid of it faster.  Btw when you get sacked as much as he has it is very natural to start to get a case of the yips....  

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, jetscrazey said:

I'd draft Zach again and not commit malpractice by replacing Van Roten and McGovern.  I also wouldn't make a 33 year old kid OC and not give him a veteran backup to settle him down.

I would have traded for Foles, and let him start all year while the kid learned

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes and Josh Allens performance last night really hit it home for me. Allen was completely lost his first season and insanely inaccurate but the coaching staff was 100% committed to him and he grew.

Same situation here with Zach, He WILL get the mundane things down.  LaFleur needs to stop trying to fit Zach into his "phone booth" system. Everyone though Zach was a great fit but the reality is that they need to spread things out for Zach more and let him have the room to attack the edges better. 

AVT is starting to play like a Pro Bowler. 

 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

Because watching this....is an upgrade? 

For me it is. Watching Sam play last year was literally one of the worse seasons I've watched. The kid cold gave up. His eyes were dead and all he wanted to do was go home. Blame Gase, blame weapons, blame whatever you like but it was beyond beyond brutal watching him play and I wasn't going to watch him again.   Yes, Zach blows and the team blows but at least they are trying. We actually start playing better when its already too late so that's kinda cool. Yet, first half is pretty hard to watch. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

We could have then had our choice of Fields, Lance or Jones.  

When dealing with a QB you don't play around.  You complete your due diligence and take your highest ranked QB as high as you can.  If their top choice at 2 was Fields or Jones, then they should have taken Fields or Jones at 2.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Rangers9 said:

The Jets overall #2 selection has to be one of the biggest decisions in Jets history. It could make or break the GM and HC. We won’t know if a great decision or not but whatever happens not the best ever decision by JD. That was to not sign with the Jets without a high paying multiyear contract. Like all of the other Jets former GMs he wants financial protection and to get paid after he gets fired. 

I think the trend of firing GM's purely because they whiff on a QB needs to end.  If Douglas ends up getting fired it should be for the totality of his body of work and not JUST the QB he took.

If GM's are afraid to take QB's high in the draft just because they think they'll get fired if they miss, then you just end up with more Mike Maccagnan-like GM's who make "safe" picks at the top of the draft.

At any given time, only about a dozen or so guys on the planet can play the QB position at a high level, and you have to keep taking shots at QB until you find one.  Missing on a QB isn't as important as the willingness to draft another QB quickly once you are confident you have a bust on your hands.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Yes and Josh Allens performance last night really hit it home for me. Allen was completely lost his first season and insanely inaccurate but the coaching staff was 100% committed to him and he grew.

Same situation here with Zach, He WILL get the mundane things down.  LaFleur needs to stop trying to fit Zach into his "phone booth" system. Everyone though Zach was a great fit but the reality is that they need to spread things out for Zach more and let him have the room to attack the edges better. 

AVT is starting to play like a Pro Bowler. 

 

I don't know where our record will end up, but Allen his rookie year, the Bills won 6 games. They never went below that moving forward. 

The way you hear it around here 2-15 is A OK this year! Its "development" Nonsense. Allen's second year the Bills had a winning season and went to the playoffs. If we are gona compare Wilson to Allen, then I want playoffs next year. 

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

I'm ok with this, as long as it includes not watching Sam QB for us anymore I can work with it. 

Yes.  And I'm of the belief that Pitts is such a special talent that he'd be hard to pass on in a do-over situation.  I know TE isn't a premium position and they tend to get hurt a lot, but Pitts is going to transcend the position.  So unless Wilson is at minimum the next poor man's Aaron Rodgers, give me the TE with HOF upside and a very high floor to boot.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

When dealing with a QB you don't play around.  You complete your due diligence and take your highest ranked QB as high as you can.  If their top choice at 2 was Fields or Jones, then they should have taken Fields or Jones at 2.

Maybe so.  But if there's a possibility to get an elite talent AND an athletic QB who drops, you take it.  Imagine if we'd have taken Quenton Nelson AND traded up to go get Lamar Jackson in 2018?

  • Post of the Week 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

When dealing with a QB you don't play around.  You complete your due diligence and take your highest ranked QB as high as you can.  If their top choice at 2 was Fields or Jones, then they should have taken Fields or Jones at 2.

I don't disagree. I am just stating the fact we still would have a choice of highly rated quarterback had we traded out of 2. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

He sucked his first full 2 seasons in the league.  Sue us.  

And as @sec101row23 pointed out earlier in the thread, QB's don't tend to fix their accuracy issues at the pro level.  I'll take that a step further.  Allen's turnaround is historically unprecedented by any QB in NFL history.  His freakish athleticism and maniacal desire to improve his accuracy are incredibly rare traits that you can't count on. 

I.E. we have little to learn from Allen except to say taking a QB with freakish athleticism and a great work ethic, even if he's flawed otherwise, is a better bet than it used to be in the pros.  Though that trend started with Cam Newton, not Josh Allen.  Hence why I could have gotten behind drafting Trey Lance out of this past class.  I also could have gotten behind taking Lamar Jackson in 2018, even if I had no interest in Allen and Darnold was my # 1 choice out of the class.  At the time i just figured Jackson would be fun to watch if nothing else.  I had Jackson as my # 3 guy behind Darnold and Rosen.  Yeah, bad calls on those 2 also.  We all make them when it comes to QB's.  But I certainly had Jackson over Mayfield for the reasons I stated.

You cannot expect that kind of turnaround to happen with any young QB who struggles with accuracy in college along with their first 2 seasons in the pros.  Darnold bros are still waiting for him to fix his accuracy problems and it's never gonna happen for him.  This past week proved that.  

Welcome to the Internet where one only needs one outlier to refute a well-founded and supported argument.

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I think the trend of firing GM's purely because they whiff on a QB needs to end.  If Douglas ends up getting fired it should be for the totality of his body of work and not JUST the QB he took.

If GM's are afraid to take QB's high in the draft just because they think they'll get fired if they miss, then you just end up with more Mike Maccagnan-like GM's who make "safe" picks at the top of the draft.

At any given time, only about a dozen or so guys on the planet can play the QB position at a high level, and you have to keep taking shots at QB until you find one.  Missing on a QB isn't as important as the willingness to draft another QB quickly once you are confident you have a bust on your hands.

Probably the best argument I've seen that whiffing on a QB shouldn't be an immediate career death sentence. It remains the most challenging position in sport to scout and extrapolate performance to the pros.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought at the time that Macc’s deal with Indy to get the overall #3 so he could draft Darnold was ok because he only gave up one first round pick. And Sam was that highly rated. We’ve seen teams give up a lot more to get a QB incl multiple number one picks. So in his 4th year we now know Sam wasn’t worth that high of a pick even though he’s been a starter now for four straight NFL seasons. And if he fails with the Panthers he’ll be relegated to being a backup or semi starter when the number one is injured which is a lot. Fitz built a long NFL career out of this we’re seeing the same with Geno. I think Sam will be ok and has a few more years with Carolina as starter until they determine they can do better without him. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Maybe so.  But if there was somehow a possibility to end up with Pitts AND still get Trey Lance, that would be my ideal do-over.

Lance is raw as hell and needs a lot of reps but that kid is oozing with talent.  I would not have been upset with that haul in the least.  

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, JetBlue said:

Lance is raw as hell and needs a lot of reps but that kid is oozing with talent.  I would not have been upset with that haul in the least.  

I amended my post because that would have been impossible.  Somehow I forgot Lance went # 3 and it was Fields who dropped.

Instead I proposed a 2018 re-do where we ended up with Quenton Nelson AND traded up for Lamar Jackson.  That's a more realistic re-do.  Who would be unhappy with that today?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

I thought at the time that Macc’s deal with Indy to get the overall #3 so he could draft Darnold was ok because he only gave up one first round pick. And Sam was that highly rated. We’ve seen teams give up a lot more to get a QB incl multiple number one picks. So in his 4th year we now know Sam wasn’t worth that high of a pick even though he’s been a starter now for four straight NFL seasons. And if he fails with the Panthers he’ll be relegated to being a backup or semi starter when the number one is injured which is a lot. Fitz built a long NFL career out of this we’re seeing the same with Geno. I think Sam will be ok and has a few more years with Carolina as starter until they determine they can do better without him. 

Everyone on here LOVED the trade. Let's not reinvent history. I remember suck for sam on here. 

The way some people rewrite history is beyond me. Sam will be an ok QB in this league and will have some playoff runs as well. How far they go depends on the team he's on, their running game and defense. 

Will he ever be Aaron Rodgers or Mahomes? Absolutely not. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I

However.. he's only had one seriously productive year, and it came against mostly tomato can defenses/teams. That lone top-notch season itself followed one mostly unproductive year, and if a casual fan breaking down film here could see all these bad habits through the TDs, then surely the Jets' scouts/GM should have seen it. There were enough red flags that maybe he shouldn't start all 17 games in 2021, because all his tight-coverage completions tend to get batted down or picked off far more at this level.

 

This statement is just not true at all. He was very very solid in his rookie year including a literally PERFECT Bowl Game, and in the next year before his injury he was the same guy as he was in 2020. I really wish people would actually stop saying this crap because that is exactly what it is, crap. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I amended my post because that would have been impossible.  Somehow I forgot Lance went # 3 and it was Fields who dropped.

Instead I proposed a 2018 re-do where we ended up with Quenton Nelson AND traded up for Lamar Jackson.  That's a more realistic re-do.  Who would be unhappy with that today?

"But if Lamar Jackson came here he would've sucked anyway."

The Nihilist - The Big Lebowski Mixed Media by Joseph Oland

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Far more heralded & polished prospects sat out some time - if not an entire season - and I don't see the harm in having done so with Wilson. Bringing back a has-been like Flacco, or bringing in a Minshew or other Trubisky-or-worse type (someone who could credibly start for a while - maybe even the whole season if needed - but one you really aren't interested in getting deep into bed with). Wait for an injury, or wait for another couple months of the veteran sucking, or just wait 1-3 mos for the rookie to absorb what the starter's been doing wrong while the OL and OC get in their own lumps. Or *gasp* wait for the rookie to outplay the veteran in practice; it's obvious when it happens in front of their faces. Then when the switch is made, after seeing enough weeks of failure with the veteran, few will be crying "OMG go back to [Minshew/Trubisky] he's what we need" since that's a dead-end street anyway.

It's tough to make sense of the same GM deciding Flacco was a worthwhile pickup for Darnold's 3rd year - in a what looked like another teardown-before-the-rebuild offseason - with an experienced OC-as-HC re-employing the same system for a second straight season -- but Mike White and/or a 2nd yr 4th round flop were all that's needed to go along with a kinda-raw rookie QB playing under a rookie OC coaching under a rookie HC as he inserted a new offense while 3/5 of the OL was either a rookie or a veteran in a camp competition. 

Wilson needs time for the game to slow down, and yes that has to happen on the field. To my novice evaluating eyes, he still is QBing in some combination of panic mode (with the bad habits that follow) while looking as though he's trying to score 21 points on every dropback, to the point where even his reluctant dumpoffs are looking unnatural. It's certainly not that he can't make those throws; it's that he isn't under these circumstances. 

Anyway, the bye should be a much-needed break for him to have the luxury of working out some things for a week without the need to worry about a specific game plan. Of course, had he sat out a month he'd have had that luxury this whole time. Granted I'm saying this all with the benefit of hindsight, without the benefit of how much he may improve (or not improve) as the rest of the season unfolds. 

 

  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

This statement is just not true at all. He was very very solid in his rookie year including a literally PERFECT Bowl Game, and in the next year before his injury he was the same guy as he was in 2020. I really wish people would actually stop saying this crap because that is exactly what it is, crap. 

Meh, 11 TDs in 7 starts, against that level of competition, is nothing to get a chub over. That's 3-4 TD/week matchup stuff that a prospect is supposed to compile against. And 9 of them game in 3 games against Western Michigan, Hawaii, and UMass. A great game here or there isn't a great - or even a very solid - season.

Quote

he's only had one seriously productive year

is what I said, and it's a true statement. 

I don't dislike him as a prospect or anything, but a seriously productive college QB season is one filled with dozens of TDs. He did that once; not twice, and not 3x. I'm pointing it out as a reason he should've had more help (in a variety of ways), not a reason to stay away from him in the draft. 

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wilson still needs time to develop and improve, especially as the offense starts to congeal around him and he runs for his life less (hopefully). He's missing throws he should make and missing open receivers which are both not great but I would expect that out of any rookie QB five games in. 

I'd still pick him.

Darnold was shot here--no matter what you think of his ceiling it was clear he lost the spark with the Jets and needed a fresh start somewhere else. 

Assuming TL wasn't available at #2 Wilson still seems like the QB with the best upside. Fields hasn't looked much better and I still don't think he has much of a ceiling to go. Mac Jones has looked decent and better than I expected but he seems like a game manager more than a leader on offense. I'm not sure BB can build a team around that kind of QB and do better than 6-9 wins each season. Lance is kinda like Wilson--a smaller school QB that is high risk/high reward. Lance would have been my second choice in the draft at #2. 

Wilson may not be the guy but five games in is too early to tell. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, JiFapono said:

Yeah, I was one of them.  lol.  That said, the dude has done the biggest leaps in development I've ever seen but foundationally, he had what it takes for him to be QB1 in the league because of his size, strength, arm, mobility, etc.  Zach Wilson does not have any of that and their arms are not comparable.  Wilson's is way overrated and Allen's only competition in that category is Mahomes.  Nobody else compares to those 2, IMO.  

 

I go to games and his arm strength is noticeable.  

I hear game announcers rave about his arm strength and some of his throws.

I listen to panel shows with ex players etc and they trace about throws he makes, talk about that’s why hes was drafted 2 overall and with his arm talent they see it

 i hear Romo, Warner, Sanchez, Rodgers, opponents rave about his arm strength then come here and have you tell us how we’re all wrong and his arm talents are overrated

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, JiFapono said:

The Panthers gave Sam, what?  24 mil for 2 years?   like 6 and then 18 next year?   Yes, I'd do that because it's not hamstringing you in anyway and even if you decided to pick a QB, he's just a slightly above average priced back up if you look at it over the lifetime of the deal. 

In regards to the evaluation of Zach predraft - I would just say, when you have a minute, look at the QB thread in the draft forum and the stuff @win4ever did breaking down film.  He was a mess and a lot of his tendencies were on full display.  The footwork, fading from the pocket, the hero balls, etc, all over his tape, huge red flags.  Then his legion of ball washers got caught up in the predraft hysteria nonsense and convinced themselves on sh*t that just was not real, the over the top Mahomes comparisons and Chris Simms saying he was QB1.  People started eating it up.  All pure bull sh*t if you actually watched how messy of a prospect he was but that's what happens these days. You'll see many of us exercising extreme caution or not wanting Zach because of everything we're seeing right now.  

If that's the case and proves to be unfixable, then Douglas is a problem.  His job is to not fall for the hype and do an even better analysis than "Win4ever" on Jet Nation Dot Com.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

He sucked his first full 2 seasons in the league.  Sue us.  

And as @sec101row23 pointed out earlier in the thread, QB's don't tend to fix their accuracy issues at the pro level.  I'll take that a step further.  Allen's turnaround is historically unprecedented by any QB in NFL history.  His freakish athleticism and maniacal desire to improve his accuracy are incredibly rare traits that you can't count on. 

I.E. we have little to learn from Allen except to say taking a QB with freakish athleticism and a great work ethic, even if he's flawed otherwise, is a better bet than it used to be in the pros.  Though that trend started with Cam Newton, not Josh Allen.  Hence why I could have gotten behind drafting Trey Lance out of this past class.  I also could have gotten behind taking Lamar Jackson in 2018, even if I had no interest in Allen and Darnold was my # 1 choice out of the class.  At the time i just figured Jackson would be fun to watch if nothing else.  I had Jackson as my # 3 guy behind Darnold and Rosen.  Yeah, bad calls on those 2 also.  We all make them when it comes to QB's.  But I certainly had Jackson over Mayfield for the reasons I stated.

You cannot expect that kind of turnaround to happen with any young QB who struggles with accuracy in college along with their first 2 seasons in the pros.  Darnold bros are still waiting for him to fix his accuracy problems and it's never gonna happen for him.  This past week proved that.  

Wilson didn't have accuracy issues in college.  His downfield accuracy was elite and his low-mid range was just good.  His recent struggles don't change that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I amended my post because that would have been impossible.  Somehow I forgot Lance went # 3 and it was Fields who dropped.

Instead I proposed a 2018 re-do where we ended up with Quenton Nelson AND traded up for Lamar Jackson.  That's a more realistic re-do.  Who would be unhappy with that today?

Problem is that the Jets would try to make Lamar into a QB he is not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I think the trend of firing GM's purely because they whiff on a QB needs to end.  If Douglas ends up getting fired it should be for the totality of his body of work and not JUST the QB he took.

If GM's are afraid to take QB's high in the draft just because they think they'll get fired if they miss, then you just end up with more Mike Maccagnan-like GM's who make "safe" picks at the top of the draft.

At any given time, only about a dozen or so guys on the planet can play the QB position at a high level, and you have to keep taking shots at QB until you find one.  Missing on a QB isn't as important as the willingness to draft another QB quickly once you are confident you have a bust on your hands.

It’s not just the Qb but the personnel you gave up to acquire him. We could have traded down for a boatload of draft picks to rebuild the team esp coming off of a 2 win season.  Look at all we gave up to trade up for Sam. So if we’re weak in areas and not enough key or impact players that’s one of the reasons why using all of that capital for one player. As for drafting QBs aren’t the Jets league leaders in number of QBs drafted. That’s not a good stat. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Always thought the move was to trade back regardless of weather they kept Darnold or not most of the great QBs in the league weren't taken in the top 5 and with all the media hype around Wilson it would have netted a haul.  Hopefully Wilson pans out and becomes the next Rodgers I just never viewed him as the clear 2nd choice I viewed him as a project same as Lance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we're gonna play the hindsight game, two moves come to mind before re-doing the Wilson pick

 

1. Hiring someone other then Mike Lafleur as OC/Playcaller.....someone competent with experience, even if it means running a different system

2. Signing/Trading for one of Foles, Minshew, Mullins and penciling them as the starter going into camp. Make Zach outplay one of them to become the starter...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, jgb said:

Problem with this plan is that Sam had already shown that he's a QB who is at best a product of his environment and not one able to rise above his circumstances. He'd be better than Zach sure after 3 years in the league but Jets almost had to take the chance to get a difference maker. Too early to say for sure although it is clear to all that the early returns ain't good.

That's fine.  I'm not saying that Sam was the long term answer but in this scenario, what's the harm?  You can always keep looking.

And just in general, I dont really buy into the idea that QB's rise above circumstances.  I really cant think of any examples off the rip.  Even the greats and the mega stars, were typically loaded with talent.  Peyton Manning played with 3 HOF'ers on offense; Harrison, Wayne, James.  Big Ben?  Look at Matt Stafford right now.  Now, play well?  Yes but like truly rise from the ashes, meh, very few examples. 

Idk man - QB is the most important position but the idea they can do it on their own?   Nah.  Like, I aint even ready to give up on Wilson.  The Jets are ******* terrible and no QB was rising above this...play better?  Sure.  100% but like truly shine?  Nah.  Just dont see it.  Hence why I wanted as many picks as possible. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...