Would you still draft Zach if we could have a do-over?

[JustInFudge]

2 hours ago, Scott Dierking said:

Hey, you, and I to a certain degree wanted Fields.  There are no guarantees. And the stories are not written yet. There were people[pounding their chests, this deep into Mayfield and Allen's tenure.

So much yet to see. The kids processing speed ins not NFL level yet and he has a case of the yips. 

Well, fwiw, my first post in this thread started with;

"Tough question but interesting, it's way too soon to say but I'll go ahead and play for the fun."

[Scott Dierking]

Just now, JiFapono said:

Well, fwiw, my first post in this thread started with;

"Tough question but interesting, it's way too soon to say but I'll go ahead and play for the fun."

That is worth a lot. 

[JustInFudge]

2 hours ago, JetBlue said:

Nothing you said changes the fact that like all young quarterbacks in this draft, he had things to work on and clean up.   Have you seen Lawrence lately?  Tell me he looks much better and he was the consensus best quarterback in this draft.  Fields, who I know you are in love with, has looked decent and actually has a pretty good offensive team but he if he were on the the Jets team can you seriously think he would be any better under the current circumstances?  

The problem is the Knapp tragedy and the utter stupidity of not signing a veteran back up who even have started the first few games of the season so the kid could have been brought along slowly.    

JetBlue, thanks for your response.  This wasnt my thread, someone proposed a hypothetical question to which I answered.  Sorry you didnt like my hypothetical answers so I'll leave you with the same thing I just said to Scott, which was my first comment in the thread:

"Tough question but interesting, it's way too soon to say but I'll go ahead and play for the fun."

 

[JustInFudge]

4 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

That is worth a lot. 

edit.  thought you were being sarcastic. 

carry on

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

I go to games and his arm strength is noticeable.  

I hear game announcers rave about his arm strength and some of his throws.

I listen to panel shows with ex players etc and they trace about throws he makes, talk about that’s why hes was drafted 2 overall and with his arm talent they see it

 i hear Romo, Warner, Sanchez, Rodgers, opponents rave about his arm strength then come here and have you tell us how we’re all wrong and his arm talents are overrated

He's got a great arm but overrated.  Case in point your response, quoting morons who just say things. 

I'd say he's maybe top dozen, if not top 10.  It's just not Allen and Mahomes level.  No knock on Zach, they're in a class of their own.  Maybe Stafford too but again, they're the elite of the elite. 

The only suggestion I have for you is, you should probably stop listening to blowhards who are paid to be walking hyperboles because they're constantly wrong and overrate, everything.  You yuck it up for some reason even though you've been watching the NFL enough to know they say stupid wrong sh*t, all the time.  

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, ZachEY said:

If that's the case and proves to be unfixable, then Douglas is a problem.  His job is to not fall for the hype and do an even better analysis than "Win4ever" on Jet Nation Dot Com.

The problem is, this happens, all the time.  Trubisky over Watson/Mahomes.  Mayfield/Darnold over Jackson/Allen.  Goff/Wentz over Prescott and so on and so on.  The teams that do it right, have a plan.  You draft the prospect and I'm not saying there isnt a lot to like about Wilson as a prospect but when you take a guy who has that many flaws you need the coaches to develop him, the support system to insulate him and the team to stomach the highs and lows.  The Jets have none of the above right now.  Doesnt mean Zach wont rise up above it, doesnt mean he's not going to be good, it just mean that these are legitimate concerns that we have to hope are being addressed.   

[UntouchableCrew]

Too early for me to have a lot of conviction.

What I will say is that I would still have traded Darnold no matter what.

Question is do you take Wilson, Fields, or sign a vet (Tyrod Taylor) and trade down for a haul.

[JetBlue]

51 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

JetBlue, thanks for your response.  This wasnt my thread, someone proposed a hypothetical question to which I answered.  Sorry you didnt like my hypothetical answers so I'll leave you with the same thing I just said to Scott, which was my first comment in the thread:

"Tough question but interesting, it's way too soon to say but I'll go ahead and play for the fun."

 

Touche! I guess I missed that lol. 

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, JiFapono said:

He's got a great arm but overrated.  Case in point your response, quoting morons who just say things. 

I'd say he's maybe top dozen, if not top 10.  It's just not Allen and Mahomes level.  No knock on Zach, they're in a class of their own.  Maybe Stafford too but again, they're the elite of the elite. 

The only suggestion I have for you is, you should probably stop listening to blowhards who are paid to be walking hyperboles because they're constantly wrong and overrate, everything.  You yuck it up for some reason even though you've been watching the NFL enough to know they say stupid wrong sh*t, all the time.  

No, there is no case in point to what I said.  I gave examples of all the people who know more than me and you who rave about his arm.  Your response it to tell us that Allen has a bigger arm, no kidding, we all know this.  Doesnt make Zachs arm weaker or overrated.  No one is saying he has more arm.  Or Mahomes level.  So?  Hes up there behind Allen and Mahomes and Rodgers again, how does this make him overrated.  I've always loved Stafford and was told here and on JI that I had no clue.  

You can tell me to stop listening to all the ex QBs, ex players, etc .  But until I hear those types reverse their opinions I'll stick with them and disagree with a fan who wanted someone else and is alone in his opinion and believes theyre the ones talking stupid shlt along with what we all see at MetLife live in person.  Zach arm strength and arm talent isnt a problem and won’t be the reason he fails.  

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, Out of Bounce said:

Wilson didn't have accuracy issues in college.  His downfield accuracy was elite and his low-mid range was just good.  His recent struggles don't change that.

I didn't suggest Wilson has accuracy problems.  Not yet, at least. 

My point was you can't say because Josh Allen fixed his accuracy problems, other QB's can/will too.  You can't count on that.  Using him as an example is about as dumb as when people point to Peyton Manning's rookie struggles.

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, JiFapono said:

And just in general, I dont really buy into the idea that QB's rise above circumstances.  I really cant think of any examples off the rip.  Even the greats and the mega stars, were typically loaded with talent.  Peyton Manning played with 3 HOF'ers on offense; Harrison, Wayne, James.  Big Ben?  Look at Matt Stafford right now.  Now, play well?  Yes but like truly rise from the ashes, meh, very few examples. 

Peyton's weapons were pretty terrible over the course of the decades outside of the 3 you named.  Just look at how the careers of the likes of Dallas Clark and Brandon Stokely went when paired with a QB not named Peyton.  Austin Collie and Jacob Tamme even looked pretty good with Peyton.  

Matt Stafford now looks good but he also looked good in Detroit long after Megatron retired. Stafford was consistently in that top 10 or 12 QB's conversation despite being paired with an awful franchise.  How many of his receivers/RB's can you name in Detroit over the last 5 years since Megatron retired in 2015?

Meanwhile, Justin Herbert had the # 32 ranked OL last season and still had a 31/10 season, arguably the greatest rookie QB campaign of all-time.  I get that he has Keenan Allen, but come on, are you really going to argue that without Allen, Herbert falls flat on his face last year?  Maybe he puts up a 25/15 type of season but still looks excellent without Allen.  It's also probably no coincidence that Mike Williams finally looks like a stud now with Herbert around.

I'm not saying QB's aren't impacted by their circumstances.  Only that if a QB has the goods, he's going to show it pretty soon, even if the talent around him isn't great.  

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, Claymation said:

Problem is that the Jets would try to make Lamar into a QB he is not.

Maybe so but he'd still run from time to time.  Any play that breaks down, he'd just take off, even if the coaches tried to keep him from doing so.  That would be enough for him to have value as a QB here.  

[THE BARON]

My pre-draft QB assessment.  Not sure how it will all pan out, but this is what I was saying

1. Trevor Lawrence - Best prospect in the draft

2. Mac Jones - Only other QB prospect I would draft if Lawrence was gone.  Take Lawrence or Jones OR keep Darnold and trade down for value.

3. Fields.  Don't draft.  Bust in the making.  Small sample size, holds on to the ball to long.  

4. Wilson. Don't draft.  Small sample size, BYU schedule. Possible bust in the making

5. Trey Lance.  Dont draft.  Way to small sample size.  Although possible can be fantastic after a year or two on the bench, way to risky.  

 

 

[Saul Goodman]

Haven’t given up on Zach. But my position is the same as it was before the draft - the best move for the Jets would be to trade down and then take Pitts, Chase or Sewell. Those three were clearly the best three prospects. 

[More Cowbell]

I wanted Fields and I still think he would have been a great choice since we could have traded back and got him. 

[SAM SAM HE'S OUR MAN]

The jury is still out .

[Jet Nut]

37 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Peyton's weapons were pretty terrible over the course of the decades outside of the 3 you named.  Just look at how the careers of the likes of Dallas Clark and Brandon Stokely went when paired with a QB not named Peyton.  Austin Collie and Jacob Tamme even looked pretty good with Peyton.  

Matt Stafford now looks good but he also looked good in Detroit long after Megatron retired. Stafford was consistently in that top 10 or 12 QB's conversation despite being paired with an awful franchise.  How many of his receivers/RB's can you name in Detroit over the last 5 years since Megatron retired in 2015?

Meanwhile, Justin Herbert had the # 32 ranked OL last season and still had a 31/10 season, arguably the greatest rookie QB campaign of all-time.  I get that he has Keenan Allen, but come on, are you really going to argue that without Allen, Herbert falls flat on his face last year?  Maybe he puts up a 25/15 type of season but still looks excellent without Allen.  It's also probably no coincidence that Mike Williams finally looks like a stud now with Herbert around.

I'm not saying QB's aren't impacted by their circumstances.  Only that if a QB has the goods, he's going to show it pretty soon, even if the talent around him isn't great.  

Stanford never had a RB run for 100+ yards in Detroit.

[JohnnyLV]

2 hours ago, Out of Bounce said:

Wilson didn't have accuracy issues in college.  His downfield accuracy was elite and his low-mid range was just good.  His recent struggles don't change that.

I have a theory about that. Zach is known for not throwing his receivers into big hits often, so he tends to throw crossers just a touch behind instead of leading him into a crunching hit and I think the crossing speed in the NFL is just a touch quicker. I have zero concerns right now about Zach figuring things out.

[Integrity28]

Eh, I would never have drafted him, but whatever … he’s here and this is silly.

[Matt39]

3 hours ago, Out of Bounce said:

Wilson didn't have accuracy issues in college.  His downfield accuracy was elite and his low-mid range was just good.  His recent struggles don't change that.

https://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2021/04/15/matt-waldmans-rsp-film-room-with-mark-schofield-qb-zach-wilson-byu/

Waldman did flag it in the predraft, especially with the short/horizontal stuff that were seeing him struggle with.

[Bugg]

1 hour ago, THE BARON said:

My pre-draft QB assessment.  Not sure how it will all pan out, but this is what I was saying

1. Trevor Lawrence - Best prospect in the draft

2. Mac Jones - Only other QB prospect I would draft if Lawrence was gone.  Take Lawrence or Jones OR keep Darnold and trade down for value.

3. Fields.  Don't draft.  Bust in the making.  Small sample size, holds on to the ball to long.  

4. Wilson. Don't draft.  Small sample size, BYU schedule. Possible bust in the making

5. Trey Lance.  Dont draft.  Way to small sample size.  Although possible can be fantastic after a year or two on the bench, way to risky.  

 

 

If Lawrence was gone, Jones was the choice. A smart guy, great size, won at Bama against superior  soon to be pro SEC competition. Every time I saw him looked like he was thorwing 40 yard ropes, and he wasn't facing some Mickey Mouse conference. Pretty much the same scouting report as Deshawn Watson spare the SEC part. Picking Wilson was overthinking it, the weakness of having a scout rather than a real GM. Douglas fell in love with a great story,a  find, rather than picking an NFL player. 

[T0mShane]

You have to wonder if or when Team Wilson steps in and pushes this LaFleur loser out the door. It’s wild that *the* guy responsible for turning Wilson into an NFL QB is an absolute nobody nepotism hire whose entire resume is just “hung out with Kyle Shanahan for a while.” If Zack is still looking like sh*t two or three weeks from now, there better be some alarm bells going off in that building, because there’s no safety net in place for either the baby QB or the baby OC. 

[Matt39]

5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

You have to wonder if or when Team Wilson steps in and pushes this LaFleur loser out the door. It’s wild that *the* guy responsible for turning Wilson into an NFL QB is an absolute nobody nepotism hire whose entire resume is just “hung out with Kyle Shanahan for a while.” If Zack is still looking like sh*t two or three weeks from now, there better be some alarm bells going off in that building, because there’s no safety net in place for either the baby QB or the baby OC. 

Herm was way in over his head in the beginning, but had enough sense to hire a staff that had experience (even the dreaded Hackett). How this staff was green-lighted for a professional franchise with the youngest roster in the league is mind boggling.

[Wit]

I’d still draft him as of today. Fields look good too though. 

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, Matt39 said:

Herm was way in over his head in the beginning, but had enough sense to hire a staff that had experience (even the dreaded Hackett). How this staff was green-lighted for a professional franchise with the youngest roster in the league is mind boggling.

It really is bizarre. It’s like they just let Saleh hire a bunch of bros he’d invite to a bachelor party. I’d bet good money that Matt Cavanaugh hasn’t actually been inside the facility for more than a total of ten days since he was hired as a consultant. Saleh is already starting to talk about the offense like it’s something that’s happening in some other part of the building that he couldn’t point to on a map. 

[Wit]

5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

It really is bizarre. It’s like they just let Saleh hire a bunch of bros he’d invite to a bachelor party. I’d bet good money that Matt Cavanaugh hasn’t actually been inside the facility for more than a total of ten days since he was hired as a consultant. Saleh is already starting to talk about the offense like it’s something that’s happening in some other part of the building that he couldn’t point to on a map. 

I know Saleh isn’t rexing the offense. He speaks about it in his press conferences as if he has a hand in it. 

[JustInFudge]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

No, there is no case in point to what I said.  I gave examples of all the people who know more than me and you who rave about his arm.  Your response it to tell us that Allen has a bigger arm, no kidding, we all know this.  Doesnt make Zachs arm weaker or overrated.  No one is saying he has more arm.  Or Mahomes level.  So?  Hes up there behind Allen and Mahomes and Rodgers again, how does this make him overrated.  I've always loved Stafford and was told here and on JI that I had no clue.  

You can tell me to stop listening to all the ex QBs, ex players, etc .  But until I hear those types reverse their opinions I'll stick with them and disagree with a fan who wanted someone else and is alone in his opinion and believes theyre the ones talking stupid shlt along with what we all see at MetLife live in person.  Zach arm strength and arm talent isnt a problem and won’t be the reason he fails.  

You're exhausting when you do this thing you love to do.  You know, chiming in mid way through the conversation and completely missing context.  It gets tiring to have to explain sh*t to you over and over again when you do this because you can simply read the thread and understand the conversation and context but since I love you, I will explain for you, once again.

Because you dont read and just have a weird obsession with me, you clearly missed the post where Rhg said "hey guys! Look at the Josh Allen progression.  Maybe Wilson doesnt have his mobility but he has his arm, you can put his arm up there with anyone in the league"

JiF politely disagrees and says, "it's a bit overrated IMO.  He doesnt have Allen/Mahomes/Stafford arm (putting him in that category is overrating his arm, just incase that didnt register for you).  No knock on Zach, he's got a great arm, they're just elite.

Jet Nut - wha wha wha wha JiFsaid something about Zach Wilson omg omg omg Im going to argue for the sake of arguing even though I dont know what I'm saying and it's great because listen to the "experts" like Tony Romo!!!

I stopped reading your nonsense after that because I politely asked you to ignore me on this topic.  You become an a$$hole and I dont know why.  And moving forward, read the entire conversation before wrongly inserting your assholeness into the thread. 

 

[Flashlite80]

I am very concerned with the number of wide open receivers and easy passes he has been off target on, many with good protection.  Interceptions happen but you have to hit the wide open plays at least 90 % of the time.

He's getting little help from the lousy 1st half offensive calls and the dropsie prone receivers.  Can anybody adjust to the throw?  Other teams catch balls a little behind or adjust to the throw. 

[Green Ghost]

6 hours ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Glad to see that the majority of the people on this board are sane. Too bad the vocal minority make the biggest stink.

5 weeks in, and you’re encouraged that 31% of those answering wouldn’t draft Wilson if they could do it over again? Almost 1/3 of the respondents are already giving up on the #2 pick in the draft. That’s a stunning number after seeing him play 5 games.

I’d be willing to bet if the same poll was run 5 weeks into Sam’s rookie year (he was seeing ghosts then and about to get fitted for a walking boot) over 90% would’ve still drafted him.

 

 

[RoadFan]

6 hours ago, maury77 said:

Is there an option for f*ck no?

To be a good NFL QB, you have to at a bare minimum be able to make consistent, accurate throws from a tight pocket. If you can do that and add another feature, such as mobility (Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, Russell Wilson), arm strength (Josh Allen, Mahomes), brains (Tom Brady), off platform throws (Rodgers, Mahomes), you have a very good chance to be elite. 

Zach Wilson cannot make consistent, accurate throws from a tight pocket. This is why I did not want to pick him. Right now, for him to succeed, he needs either a huge pocket, a roll out to his right or his receiver needs to outplay the CB. When the pocket is tight, he drifts back instead of stepping up in the pocket. This was his film in college. In 2020, BYU had an awesome line and his receivers outplayed the CBs on jump balls. Now that he is in the NFL, the pockets aren't the same and his WRs can't out-talent the CBs on a consistent basis (or ever if we are being honest about the WRs on the roster so far this year). 

Many of you keep harping about his talent. Where is he elite talent wises?

Size? no. 

Arm strength? Above average, but its not in the Mahomes/Josh Allen class either

Accuracy? No. 

Mobility? No. 

Pocket presence? No.

Reading the defense? No. 

Making off platform throws? Above average, but he's not Mahomes. 

Is everything bad about the offense due to Wilson? Of course not. Could the team have helped him out better? Absolutely. Can he still improve, yes. But everything I disliked about him pre draft has manifested itself. As a person that follows the team (I intentionally did not use the word "fan"), I hope he gets better, but I wouldn't bet money on it. 

Wilson has great arm talent.   He flicks the ball effortlessly.

 
How you could answer “No” to mobility is for lack of a better word, crazy.  The guy is almost impossible to sack with just one rusher.  He wiggles away from them with ease, in fact, they often completely whiff.  Why he refuses to run for a first down is frustrating and a different matter.

Accuracy has been poor.  Reading the defense has been poor, and he continues to stare down receivers.  
 

Still,  I think he has plenty of confidence in himself.  It’s the intense look on Wilson’s face.   Some QBs that struggle, you see the depressed and defeated look.  Wilson looks pissed.  That is a positive.  I am still optimistic about him.

[JustInFudge]

28 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

You have to wonder if or when Team Wilson steps in and pushes this LaFleur loser out the door. It’s wild that *the* guy responsible for turning Wilson into an NFL QB is an absolute nobody nepotism hire whose entire resume is just “hung out with Kyle Shanahan for a while.” If Zack is still looking like sh*t two or three weeks from now, there better be some alarm bells going off in that building, because there’s no safety net in place for either the baby QB or the baby OC. 

100% but take it a step further, not only is he learning how to nurture a rookie QB, he's also learning how to be an OC.  Like, think about that undertaking.  Lil Mikey is learning how to manage an entire an offense players and staff, learning how to game plan week to week, learning how to call plays, learning how to adjust and learning how to develop a raw rookie QB who needs a ton of work.  

I honestly cant tell if it's arrogance, lunacy, masochism or just typical Jets incompetence. 

[Smashmouth]

7 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

I’d take Zach over Mac Jones not sure if Patriots had that choice which QB they would have selected. Jones has the advantage of playing on a better team with more established coaching staff and IMO a better weekly game plan. NEP and McDaniel gives him a better chance to win every week than Jets CS. Plus he’s played well. 

Look at a guy like Herbert who was drafted by a team with studs all over the offense. When he dumps to his back things happen ...look at his receivers who are as good as any in the NFL already in an established offense meaning they have been playing together for years before Herbert was even drafted. Its much easier for a QB to come to a team already established rather than be in Zachs position with all new players and a rookie OC.

How nice would it be for Zach to have Keenan Allen, Mike Williams and Austin Eckler ? Think things might be a little different ? All these QB's that seem to do well right out of the gate usually have studs to help them along. We have Corey Davis "if the ball is not right in my chest forget about me catching it." 

Its the same story with the Jets rather than making a splash with skill players to support the QB we surround him with crap and expect him to get it done. How many drives do our WR's stop by dropping the ball on 3rd down ? Davis has done that about 5 or 6 times that I know of along with 2 drops he tipped into the defenders hands and Berrios contributed one of those as well. You have to help a young QB by making a play every now and then. How many times ahs Zach benefited from a play made by a WR or RB doing something special ? ZERO times. 

[Matt39]

25 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

It really is bizarre. It’s like they just let Saleh hire a bunch of bros he’d invite to a bachelor party. I’d bet good money that Matt Cavanaugh hasn’t actually been inside the facility for more than a total of ten days since he was hired as a consultant. Saleh is already starting to talk about the offense like it’s something that’s happening in some other part of the building that he couldn’t point to on a map. 

Douglas takes a hit on this too. Remember they “changed” the reporting structure.

[65 Toss Power Trap]

Absolutely. He needs some time. But he's the real deal.

[Smashmouth]

13 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Douglas takes a hit on this too. Remember they “changed” the reporting structure.

I want to see Douglas break the trend of sh*tty skill players . Mahomes and Herbert are 2 examples of why you bring a young QB into a talented offense loaded at every position. I'm sure Douglas was looking at the OL first in preparation for Zach and Im also sure he must see Davis is not the answer at WR 1 so lets hope he uses our number one picks next year which should both be good and signs some real talent. I would also love to see him Target a stud WR in FA if one is available or even trade for one if need be.