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Would you still draft Zach if we could have a do-over?


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Would you draft Zach Wilson at overall #2 if you could do-over today?  

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  1. 1. After watching Zach for 5 weeks would you take him at #2?

    • Still draft Zach at overall #2
    • I wouldn't draft Zach again, either select somebody else or trade the pick


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2 hours ago, JiFapono said:

Dont do this...dont agree with that....you dont call people that sh*t because they disagree with you.  That's childish and really, if you're saying that to someone else for having a different opinion, you need to have a long hard look in the mirror about who's "existence is sad."  This is a message board, just like anything in life, people are going to have different opinions and that's cool because that's life and this sh*t doesnt matter.  It's ******* Football for christ sake and we have zero control over any of this nonsense. 

These same people who are so quick to judge Wilson, are doing the same exact sh*t on the other prospects they didnt like.  All the Anti-Fielders or whatever, lol, were ready to call him a bust because of his first ever NFL start.  Now he's 2-1, playing very well and silence?  People are reactionary, this week to week evaluations and determinations of players, is stupid.  Nobody know sh*t about sh*t when it comes to these rookies but for people to get their panties in a wad and start bashing and name calling because other people are simply sharing what they see and it doesnt jive with you, is just childish middle school behavior.

 

 

i agree 100%

i am not calling people sh*t for disagreeing with me, im calling them sh*t for rooting against there team for that.

i have been reading what you @FidelioJet and @Jetsfan80 have been saying. i think overall we all are in the same camp. we thumbs up alot of each others posts and seem to argue with the same people. i don't know how this got all bad for the 4 of us on this thread. but let me see if i can explain it better.

you can be critical. we all are. but we also are hopeful for us to do better.

do you remember after week 2 when Zach got 4 INTs and Sam won his 2nd game all the crap that was said here? there were guys here actually happy about that. 

you telling me some of those guys arent rooting against there team? you know some are. and about many subjects. the HC, GM, players.. draft picks...

there are anti JD guys who want him fired. they think everything he did is garbage. well he built the whole team so how can you root for them? cause the only chance you got of him being fired is if we totally collapse and go like 1-16.

i get how some jump ship after the Denver game. but after the Titan game some came back while others doubled and tripled down on the hate. now there was plenty to be critical about that game for, but some guys seamed upset we won.

i know you seen this too, i know you know some of the people im talking about.

being critical and hating are two different things

and you and @Jetsfan80 are not haters. you are not the guys i were referring to.

i hope this clears it up. 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, jgb said:

Posters here are a self-selected population of especially invested fans that deal with continued disappointment in varied ways. On one end of the spectrum are those that are optimistic in the face of a seemingly endless string of indignities. On the other, are those who take the default position that everything and everyone is presumed to suck until it is definitively proven that they do not. Then of course there is everything in between.

Both extremes annoy each other equally. Neither is operating in bad faith.

Serious question:

What's the "Is Ryan Leaf Psychic" thread if not in bad faith?

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10 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Serious question:

What's the "Is Ryan Leaf Psychic" thread if not in bad faith?

I never said there weren't schmucks here. Only that there isn't a correlation between whether one believes in Wilson or not.

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5 minutes ago, jgb said:

I never said there weren't schmucks here. Only that there isn't a correlation between whether one believes in Wilson or not.

Well, you said everyone is acting in good faith.  And while I know you didn't mean that literally I'm just pointing to a case where it's clear people are relishing in Zach's failures and it's certainly not isolated to that thread.  In addition to the happiness by many there are far too many - "I told you so" - types.

For the record,  I want to acknowledge my original post was way over the top - it clearly reads quite nasty - not really my initial intention, but that's on me....

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13 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Well, you said everyone is acting in good faith.  And while I know you didn't mean that literally I'm just pointing to a case where it's clear people are relishing in Zach's failures and it's certainly not isolated to that thread.  In addition to the happiness by many there are far too many - "I told you so" - types.

For the record,  I want to acknowledge my original post was way over the top - it clearly reads quite nasty - not really my initial intention, but that's on me....

Didn't say everyone. I said neither camp (homer v. dark sider) is operating in bad faith. Doesn't mean you don't have some sh*t-stirrers mixed in on both sides. But another good example why it's best to take people as individuals and not assume they are jerks because they don't believe in Zach.

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1 hour ago, doitny said:

i agree 100%

i am not calling people sh*t for disagreeing with me, im calling them sh*t for rooting against there team for that.

i have been reading what you @FidelioJet and @Jetsfan80 have been saying. i think overall we all are in the same camp. we thumbs up alot of each others posts and seem to argue with the same people. i don't know how this got all bad for the 4 of us on this thread. but let me see if i can explain it better.

you can be critical. we all are. but we also are hopeful for us to do better.

do you remember after week 2 when Zach got 4 INTs and Sam won his 2nd game all the crap that was said here? there were guys here actually happy about that. 

you telling me some of those guys arent rooting against there team? you know some are. and about many subjects. the HC, GM, players.. draft picks...

there are anti JD guys who want him fired. they think everything he did is garbage. well he built the whole team so how can you root for them? cause the only chance you got of him being fired is if we totally collapse and go like 1-16.

i get how some jump ship after the Denver game. but after the Titan game some came back while others doubled and tripled down on the hate. now there was plenty to be critical about that game for, but some guys seamed upset we won.

i know you seen this too, i know you know some of the people im talking about.

being critical and hating are two different things

and you and @Jetsfan80 are not haters. you are not the guys i were referring to.

i hope this clears it up. 

 

 

 

 

 

Sure but isnt it easy to see who's worthy of engaging?  Dont feed the trolls kind of thing.  But when people make sweeping generalization an say incredibly insulting remarks about a person for having an opinion on Football, it completely dilutes the conversation and often times derails into a serious of attacks that carry over into every thread. 

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1 hour ago, doitny said:

i agree 100%

i am not calling people sh*t for disagreeing with me, im calling them sh*t for rooting against there team for that.

i have been reading what you @FidelioJet and @Jetsfan80 have been saying. i think overall we all are in the same camp. we thumbs up alot of each others posts and seem to argue with the same people. i don't know how this got all bad for the 4 of us on this thread. but let me see if i can explain it better.

you can be critical. we all are. but we also are hopeful for us to do better.

do you remember after week 2 when Zach got 4 INTs and Sam won his 2nd game all the crap that was said here? there were guys here actually happy about that. 

you telling me some of those guys arent rooting against there team? you know some are. and about many subjects. the HC, GM, players.. draft picks...

there are anti JD guys who want him fired. they think everything he did is garbage. well he built the whole team so how can you root for them? cause the only chance you got of him being fired is if we totally collapse and go like 1-16.

i get how some jump ship after the Denver game. but after the Titan game some came back while others doubled and tripled down on the hate. now there was plenty to be critical about that game for, but some guys seamed upset we won.

i know you seen this too, i know you know some of the people im talking about.

being critical and hating are two different things

and you and @Jetsfan80 are not haters. you are not the guys i were referring to.

i hope this clears it up. 

 

 

 

 

 

Where do we sign up for the posse to hunt down these supposed "haterz?"

 

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2 hours ago, doitny said:

i agree 100%

i am not calling people sh*t for disagreeing with me, im calling them sh*t for rooting against there team for that.

i have been reading what you @FidelioJet and @Jetsfan80 have been saying. i think overall we all are in the same camp. we thumbs up alot of each others posts and seem to argue with the same people. i don't know how this got all bad for the 4 of us on this thread. but let me see if i can explain it better.

you can be critical. we all are. but we also are hopeful for us to do better.

do you remember after week 2 when Zach got 4 INTs and Sam won his 2nd game all the crap that was said here? there were guys here actually happy about that. 

you telling me some of those guys arent rooting against there team? you know some are. and about many subjects. the HC, GM, players.. draft picks...

there are anti JD guys who want him fired. they think everything he did is garbage. well he built the whole team so how can you root for them? cause the only chance you got of him being fired is if we totally collapse and go like 1-16.

i get how some jump ship after the Denver game. but after the Titan game some came back while others doubled and tripled down on the hate. now there was plenty to be critical about that game for, but some guys seamed upset we won.

i know you seen this too, i know you know some of the people im talking about.

being critical and hating are two different things

and you and @Jetsfan80 are not haters. you are not the guys i were referring to.

i hope this clears it up. 

 

 

 

 

 

How does a fan go about rooting against their team?  Does it involve pom poms?

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I see this has gone about as well as the pre-draft discussion.

There were a few things that were concerning prior to the draft, based just on Wilson's traits. He has the same backside defender blindspots that our previous QBs have. His completion charts in college heavily favored the sidelines, which also usually means you can take the backside defender away because the sideline offers protection. It's further exasperated by the level of competition because they aren't used to QBs having arm strength and accuracy to hit that outside shot from the far hash mark, so defenders play differently. This meant it wasn't just BYU recruits vs no name recruits, it included defensive tendencies developed against no name QBs in for a shock against Wilson.

The second aspect involved the offense which was involved, which includes a ton of misdirection. I posted a few videos here from people explaining the Shannahan offense, but the general gist is to get the defense to bite on misdirection. Get folks in open spaces. Wilson is not that QB, he's a vertical passer, beat the defense over the top. That would be perfectly fine, except our offense is geared for short to intermediate routes. Davis is a No. 2 type guy, and then we have Crowder/Moore/Cole/Berrios who all do their best work in the intermediate area.

He got away with a ton of bad plays that turned into highlight film plays because of the system. Developed bad tendencies, especially with his footwork.

Wilson was an arm talent pick, because his arm talent is the best in this class. However, a good amount of folks in the draft forum didn't buy this unbelievable prospect talk because he had a ton of adjustments to make. He still has a ton of potential because the arm is special but he needs a better system that focuses on vertical passing (which is hard with a lousy OL) plus making the massive adjustments in post snap play recognition.

I don't think the comparisons to Allen are correct, because Allen is a legitimate running threat. It's actually better to say Justin Fields or Trey Lance struggles and comparing them to Allen because being a constant rushing threat changes the way a defense attacks the QB.

I think Wilson will do better with Mims on the field, but they need to invest in more speed in the receiving core that are actually good at catching the ball down the field.


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56 minutes ago, artemusclyde said:

Meh, it's been what 5 games? And people are already taking victory laps calling Wilson a bust? Love to see what they said about Mahomes when he was riding the bench his first season or Josh Allen when he looked like crap his first couple of years.

I think the constant Allen, Mahomes, Manning, Rodgers…[insert preferred pro bowl/HOF QB] comparisons do more harm than good.  History suggests Wilson is more likely to fall short of these lofty comparisons than meet them.  Expectations tend to skew people’s  perception of success and/or failure.

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Well, you said everyone is acting in good faith.  And while I know you didn't mean that literally I'm just pointing to a case where it's clear people are relishing in Zach's failures and it's certainly not isolated to that thread.  In addition to the happiness by many there are far too many - "I told you so" - types.
For the record,  I want to acknowledge my original post was way over the top - it clearly reads quite nasty - not really my initial intention, but that's on me....


Recognizing what you saw and believed all along is not relishing in our failures. I’m a die hard Jets fan for 40 years. I desperately want the Jets to win, each of these failures tacks on 3+ years of futility. Zach Wilson impedes the Jets ability to succeed in my opinion, so I will be brutally honest with my opinion on him, and in case you haven’t noticed he hasn’t proved any of the detractors wrong. Your premise is we as Jets fans have some obligation to optimistically wait for horsesh*t to turn into diamonds, and if we don’t we aren’t true fans? Piss off pal, you have no idea what it’s like to be a Jets fan if you think me or any fan has some obligation to put up with the bullsh*t this leadership keeps trotting out while they continuously pull money out of the pockets of ardent supportive fans like myself. I’ll gladly eat crow if Zach Wilson becomes good…. But he won’t and I wish the team wasn’t so stupid to put themselves into this situation.


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11 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

 


Recognizing what you saw and believed all along is not relishing in our failures. I’m a die hard Jets fan for 40 years. I desperately want the Jets to win, each of these failures tacks on 3+ years of futility. Zach Wilson impedes the Jets ability to succeed in my opinion, so I will be brutally honest with my opinion on him, and in case you haven’t noticed he hasn’t proved any of the detractors wrong. Your premise is we as Jets fans have some obligation to optimistically wait for horsesh*t to turn into diamonds, and if we don’t we aren’t true fans? Piss off pal, you have no idea what it’s like to be a Jets fan if you think me or any fan has some obligation to put up with the bullsh*t this leadership keeps trotting out while they continuously pull money out of the pockets of ardent supportive fans like myself. I’ll gladly eat crow if Zach Wilson becomes good…. But he won’t and I wish the team wasn’t so stupid to put themselves into this situation.


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Dude, you are clearly enjoying the very premature "I told you so's" 

You are very much one of the people here that is taking every opportunity to attack the kid.  You have from the beginning and even when he looks good you continue to do so. 

I strenuously disagree with you and victory laps have 5 weeks in, IMO, just silly.

ZW will be a very good NFL QB - and I will relish in his and the NY Jets success.

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Dude, you are clearly enjoying the very premature "I told you so's" 
You are very much one of the people here that is taking every opportunity to attack the kid.  You have from the beginning and even when he looks good you continue to do so. 
I strenuously disagree with you and victory laps have 5 weeks in, IMO, just silly.
ZW will be a very good NFL QB - and I will relish in his and the NY Jets success.


Your definition of “looks good” and mine are entirely different. A couple off script bombs doesn’t give
Me the hard on it gives you. He’s been atrocious outside of that. I am going to attack the kid because he sucks, and his sucking hurts my favorite team’s chances of winning. He was an awful prospect and he was an awful pick for us, and now he’s an awful QB for us. I want to win, not coddle incompetent players.


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5 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

 


Your definition of “looks good” and mine are entirely different. A couple off script bombs doesn’t give
Me the hard on it gives you. He’s been atrocious outside of that. I am going to attack the kid because he sucks, and his sucking hurts my favorite team’s chances of winning. He was an awful prospect and he was an awful pick for us, and now he’s an awful QB for us. I want to win, not coddle incompetent players.


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Look, I really don't care if we have differing opinions.  Have whatever opinion you want, I think that's why we're here - it'what make the board interesting.

What bothers me is you seem to truly be enjoying it.  Again, that's your right, but I just find it strange that a fan would be excited for his team to lose.  Frankly, I choose to simply not engage with you anymore - and I think that's fine too.

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Look, I really don't care if we have differing opinions.  Have whatever opinion you want, I think that's why we're here - it'what make the board interesting.
What bothers me is you seem to truly be enjoying it.  Again, that's your right, but I just find it strange that a fan would be excited for his team to lose.  Frankly, I choose to simply not engage with you anymore - and I think that's fine too.


Ok, I do not enjoy watching my team lose. I’ve seen enough of that. I do not enjoy watching my team draft failed prospects over and over. I’m tired of it. I’m tired of getting onboard with sh*tty prospects that clearly look like sh*t from day one and feeling like I have to support this kid when I believe he sucks. I always have believed he sucks, even before he was drafted, and before he was projected to us. I’m not getting any enjoyment out of what’s happening right now. I’m just hoping the leadership of this team wakes up someday
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1 hour ago, Snell41 said:

 


Recognizing what you saw and believed all along is not relishing in our failures. I’m a die hard Jets fan for 40 years. I desperately want the Jets to win, each of these failures tacks on 3+ years of futility. Zach Wilson impedes the Jets ability to succeed in my opinion, so I will be brutally honest with my opinion on him, and in case you haven’t noticed he hasn’t proved any of the detractors wrong. Your premise is we as Jets fans have some obligation to optimistically wait for horsesh*t to turn into diamonds, and if we don’t we aren’t true fans? Piss off pal, you have no idea what it’s like to be a Jets fan if you think me or any fan has some obligation to put up with the bullsh*t this leadership keeps trotting out while they continuously pull money out of the pockets of ardent supportive fans like myself. I’ll gladly eat crow if Zach Wilson becomes good…. But he won’t and I wish the team wasn’t so stupid to put themselves into this situation.


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If you carry an umbrella, you are a dirty sunshine hater.

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2 hours ago, Snell41 said:

 


Recognizing what you saw and believed all along is not relishing in our failures. I’m a die hard Jets fan for 40 years. I desperately want the Jets to win, each of these failures tacks on 3+ years of futility. Zach Wilson impedes the Jets ability to succeed in my opinion, so I will be brutally honest with my opinion on him, and in case you haven’t noticed he hasn’t proved any of the detractors wrong. Your premise is we as Jets fans have some obligation to optimistically wait for horsesh*t to turn into diamonds, and if we don’t we aren’t true fans? Piss off pal, you have no idea what it’s like to be a Jets fan if you think me or any fan has some obligation to put up with the bullsh*t this leadership keeps trotting out while they continuously pull money out of the pockets of ardent supportive fans like myself. I’ll gladly eat crow if Zach Wilson becomes good…. But he won’t and I wish the team wasn’t so stupid to put themselves into this situation.


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Anthony Anderson Abc GIF by HULU

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On 10/11/2021 at 12:12 PM, JiFapono said:

The Panthers gave Sam, what?  24 mil for 2 years?   like 6 and then 18 next year?   Yes, I'd do that because it's not hamstringing you in anyway and even if you decided to pick a QB, he's just a slightly above average priced back up if you look at it over the lifetime of the deal. 

In regards to the evaluation of Zach predraft - I would just say, when you have a minute, look at the QB thread in the draft forum and the stuff @win4ever did breaking down film.  He was a mess and a lot of his tendencies were on full display.  The footwork, fading from the pocket, the hero balls, etc, all over his tape, huge red flags.  Then his legion of ball washers got caught up in the predraft hysteria nonsense and convinced themselves on sh*t that just was not real, the over the top Mahomes comparisons and Chris Simms saying he was QB1.  People started eating it up.  All pure bull sh*t if you actually watched how messy of a prospect he was but that's what happens these days. You'll see many of us exercising extreme caution or not wanting Zach because of everything we're seeing right now.  

I think I floated the idea of just picking up Sam's 5th year option and letting him play it out this year in front of whatever QB we pick.  Worse case scenario, we have a somewhat overpaid backup QB which is off-set by the rookie QB savings in the next two years.  Best case, Darnold looks better and raises trade value, and prospect gets time to develop.  Pretty much panned lol.  Everyone was off the Darnold train.  Although, he's looked up and down so far, but that's partially because that offense is essentially based on McCaffery.  

They really need to get a better receiver on the outside, because we somewhat assumed Mims would be a No. 2 type, and that hasn't been the case.  He's much more fit for a vertical passing game, but we aren't running it.  I think the only way we let Wilson improve is if Mims actually makes improvements, and guys like Moore can add speed to the core. 

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I was a "draft Fields at 2" guy.

My do-over would be trade down with SF and trade back up to take Fields.  I'm still enamored.

All the rookies suck so far this year.  We got spoiled watching Herbert and Burrow. 

Zach is entertaining for sure.  I'm back to watching every play of every game so I'll give him props for that.

 

 

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3 hours ago, win4ever said:

I think I floated the idea of just picking up Sam's 5th year option and letting him play it out this year in front of whatever QB we pick.  Worse case scenario, we have a somewhat overpaid backup QB which is off-set by the rookie QB savings in the next two years.  Best case, Darnold looks better and raises trade value, and prospect gets time to develop.  Pretty much panned lol.  Everyone was off the Darnold train.  Although, he's looked up and down so far, but that's partially because that offense is essentially based on McCaffery.  

They really need to get a better receiver on the outside, because we somewhat assumed Mims would be a No. 2 type, and that hasn't been the case.  He's much more fit for a vertical passing game, but we aren't running it.  I think the only way we let Wilson improve is if Mims actually makes improvements, and guys like Moore can add speed to the core. 

I was a supporter of Sam for quite a while after the board in general had turned on him, but last year I pretty much gave up and decided that ship had sailed - even if he ever was going to get better, it wouldn't happen here. I honestly felt bad for him having landed with us at the time he did.

All that said, I was reading the QB rankings on NFL.com and this sounded hauntingly familiar:

Quote

Asked to do more without Christian McCaffrey, Darnold has taken a step back. The first-year Panther repeatedly squandered great field position Sunday with errant throws and bad decisions against an Eagles defense sitting on his short stuff. Darnold is third in the NFL in interceptions, third in fumbles and fourth in sacks taken. That's a lot of negative plays for an offense trying to play it safe.

However Zach works out - saviour, Darnold 2.0, outright bust - it was time to look elsewhere. There are no sure things at QB in the draft, so you keep trying till you find your guy. Just keep expectations that he may turn out exactly like the previous guy ... or worse! :-) 

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3 hours ago, Rolloffjet said:

Simple answer is yes. Not too many rookies come in and start to blow up the league. Granted it can happen but rarely. Zack will be fine

Usually the ones who do are held up as "evidence" that we just suck at drafting - rather than considering the fact that more teams still don't have a franchise QB than do, and far more QBs fail than succeed, whatever the timeframe.

Herbert is the latest example - yet he was what, third QB drafted that year? So why wasn't he drafted sooner? You'd almost think that drafting isn't an exact science. ;-) 

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I am curious, had we not won a game last year and drafted Lawrence, 

Would there be a similar thread?

And so many people saying, yes they wouldn't have drafted him?

Very similar Stats, except Zach flashed a bit in a win.  Yet I really doubt many would be jumping ship...

Why? Well, because they didn't need to try and celebrate their position pre-draft....

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

I am curious, had we not won a game last year and drafted Lawrence, 

Would there be a similar thread?

And so many people saying, yes they wouldn't have drafted him?

Very similar Stats, except Zach flashed a bit in a win.  Yet I really doubt many would be jumping ship...

Why? Well, because they didn't need to try and celebrate their position pre-draft....

I thought it funny that Lawrence's write up is that he starts string but fades later in games ... maybe if we had both him and Zach we'd be in a better position! :D  

There's also a big deal made about Zach leading the league in INTs, but Lawrence has more turnovers overall (2 lost fumbles on top of his INTs).

If we'd drafted him I'd expect the forums to be full of threads saying "generational talent my a$$" right now.

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On 10/12/2021 at 1:10 PM, FidelioJet said:

I'm glad to see a strong majority of the fans on this board aren't just downright idiots. But for the minority that voted they wouldn't draft him again, there are two groups...

1) The anti-zaxers that are truly enjoying his inevitable struggles - Those people I honestly feel bad for - would rather see their team lose to be proven right - must be a very sad existence - honestly, it must translate outside of football too.  Tough life for sure.

2) The other folks that were fine with ZW being drafted but now after 5 weeks - of a lot of poor play with some flashes of special and a rookie of the week.  Exactly the type of performance that should be expected and even hoped for - from a rookie QB on a sh*tty team  - that are now are saying it was a mistake to draft him....

I mean those people are just downright stupid - I mean, no offense to y'all that changed your mind on 5 weeks of rookie QB play - I'm sure you just can't help it,  people's intelligence levels are what they're born with - so I truly wish you the best in life, can't be an easy one.

Do you really believe I prefer being proven right on a message board where I will never meet 99% of the people over having the satisfaction of having a team I have followed since I was 8 years old finally winning a Super Bowl? I think you are more upset that your pre draft proclamations that Wilson was some all star prospect are looking pretty bad at this point. 

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10 minutes ago, maury77 said:

Do you really believe I prefer being proven right on a message board where I will never meet 99% of the people over having the satisfaction of having a team I have followed since I was 8 years old finally winning a Super Bowl? I think you are more upset that your pre draft proclamations that Wilson was some all star prospect are looking pretty bad at this point. 

Well, I don't know you.  So, I don't know if you are or aren't enjoying it.  Based on this quote, it certainly sounds like you do, in fact, want the team to win.

But I assure you some are truly enjoying it.

If you took offense, I apologize - it was meant for the folks around here...and they know who they are...that are happy seeing ZW fail.

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On 10/13/2021 at 7:55 AM, thebuzzardman said:

I meant 2nd pick. Point was, if Zach is this much of a project, then just take the project QB later in the draft and instead use the #2 on something valuable, like Pitts or whatever. 

I knew he's be raw, but he's showing signs of just not being any good. Unfortunately, I've seen this script with the Jets often enough. Hope I'm completely wrong. Probably am. 

We would have been better off taking Mond in round 2 after taking Pitts or Sewell at 2nd overall

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