derp Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 20 minutes ago, jgb said: Jets have been rebuilding since Ryan Fitzpatrick's disastrous second season here.. How long should a rebuild take, oh ye of great patience? BTW any argument that suggests Jets fans lack patience is facially laughable. I know glaciers with less patience than Jets fans. Irresponsible decisions made after Fitzpatrick's second season further crippled the franchise, so I'd firmly disagree they've been rebuilding since then. Maccagnan tried to squeeze blood from a stone and the roster is still paying for it. And I outlined why the roster was so far from being competitive. Not sure what else I can say there. I didn't say Jets fans lack patience or that frustration isn't justified. The team sucks, it's sucked for a while, it's frustrating to watch, I get all of that. I don't see what the path to being significantly better now would have been within the framework they're clearly working in - and I think the framework is sustainable. In my opinion this is a better version of what Idzik did - and I think it's fair to say that exactly how much better is very much up for debate. He completely decimated the roster in two offseasons and then Maccagnan went wild and made things semi-competitive. Douglas has decimated the roster in two offseasons and I guess we'll see where things go from here. You don't exactly see NFL franchises flip from bad to sustainably competitive so I'm honestly not sure how long that takes, and I'm not sure Douglas is the guy to do it. But I don't think it happens in two offseasons. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rex-n-effect Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 The defense has been part of the problem even early in the game when they aren't gassed from being on the field all day. Too many easy opportunities for ATL to complete easy passes in the secondary and the front seven lacked the pressure they had against TEN. The offense has certainly been the bigger problem. Just seems like the offense is dead asleep the first quarter and starts to wake up the second quarter. It's too late by then to start playing the game with urgency and focus. It feels like the team shows up with a game plan on both sides of the ball that sucks. The coaching staff seems to make good adjustments in the second half but we can't have the team start in a hole halfway through every game. This to me is the most infuriating part of the season. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesr Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 1 hour ago, Pichula said: Disagree with a lot of this the offense had 3 snaps in the first quarter, that is because of the defense the defense had to stop two people on ATL and the game plan somehow allowed those two players to run free the offense did enough to make this a 3 point game with 7 minutes to go. team loss They'd have had a lot more snaps in the first quarter if they'd, you know, picked up a first down. Is that the defense's fault? Also, opening drive by ATL was a 3 and out until the zebras imagined a roughing penalty on a textbook sack. Defense saved the offense from making it even worse in Q2 by forcing a fumble just after Zac's INT. We could have been 24-0 otherwise. The second fumble in Q3 led to a 3 and out by the offense when we were trailing by 11. Team loss yes, but more due to offensive ineptitude than anything else. IMHO. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Nicco Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 12 minutes ago, jamesr said: They'd have had a lot more snaps in the first quarter if they'd, you know, picked up a first down. Is that the defense's fault? Also, opening drive by ATL was a 3 and out until the zebras imagined a roughing penalty on a textbook sack. Defense saved the offense from making it even worse in Q2 by forcing a fumble just after Zac's INT. We could have been 24-0 otherwise. The second fumble in Q3 led to a 3 and out by the offense when we were trailing by 11. Team loss yes, but more due to offensive ineptitude than anything else. IMHO. Yes they should not allow 13 minutes of time of possession in two drives Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesr Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 24 minutes ago, rangerous said: i believe they're way negative as far as turnovers go. the funny thing is if they were getting turnovers they might have a 3-2 or even 4-1 record right now and all of the talk would be different. it's kind of good that they aren't because now we can see an unvarnished team with all the flaws. We're -5 in turnovers after 5 games. But the last 2 weeks we're net zero (-1 vs. Tenn, +1 vs Atl). In fact it's only really the NE game (-4) that's putting us in such negative territory. One quirky stat - all our giveaways are INTs and all our takeaways are fumbles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesr Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 16 minutes ago, Pichula said: Yes they should not allow 13 minutes of time of possession in two drives Wow. Offense gains 16 yards and no first downs on it's first three possessions and it's the defense's fault that we fall behind? It's 2021. You don't win games by shutting out the opponent or holding them to 10 points any more. You have to score, and score often. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Island Leprechaun Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 6 minutes ago, jamesr said: Wow. Offense gains 16 yards and no first downs on it's first three possessions and it's the defense's fault that we fall behind? It's 2021. You don't win games by shutting out the opponent or holding them to 10 points any more. You have to score, and score often. It's perfectly reasonable for both to be correct. Offense did nothing. Defense failed to stop Atlanta and get itself off the field. Both sides of the ball were terrible in the first half. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Nicco Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 10 minutes ago, jamesr said: Wow. Offense gains 16 yards and no first downs on it's first three possessions and it's the defense's fault that we fall behind? It's 2021. You don't win games by shutting out the opponent or holding them to 10 points any more. You have to score, and score often. 3 and outs happen. The offense can’t sit on the sideline for an entire quarter because they had one 3 and out 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyLV Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 3 hours ago, KRL said: 3 hours ago, KRL said: - Get back to the basics of a "Shanahan" offense and establish the run (give Kyle a call during the bye). The play action game is worthless without a running game. - Incorporate more screens (RB/WR) into the offense to get Wilson easy completions early on and to get the ball into the hands of speedy players in space. - Shake up the rotation reps at WR. You may have "favorites" but those favorites haven't been getting the job done. Mims needs more time on the field, let's see if he can provide a spark. My 2 cents, let's see what happens. I usually agree with your opinions, but I think you are completely wrong here. I think a lot of the first half issues are because LaFleur is trying to force the Shanhan offense both from a running standpoint and from a bunch formation standpoint. From my observations the "Shanahan" offense is no where near as good as a fit for Zach as it was assumed. If the Jets are smart they will use the bye weeks to get farther away from the "Shanahan" offense and especially trying to force the run early. In the second halfs we are abandoning the TEs and going to 11 and 10 personnel and we should be in those formations like 90% of the game. Spread the WRs out use more balanced sets (we have great personnel for a 10 look with slot and wide on both sides) and pass more on 1st down. Agree we need to incorporate more simpler passes early. But the concept of "establish the run" is a recipe for failure with this team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetfuel66 Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 3 hours ago, derp said: I think the roster at this stage is a couple of offseasons away from being legitimately competitive. Maybe they get lucky and it’s one, but I think it’s two. Both sides of the ball need work, but the offense has to be the priority because there’s a young quarterback they’re developing. But it’s a talent issue, so although they can make little tweaks here and there this season I think there’s only so much that can be done to improve the offense beyond the QB maturing and the OL gelling or benefitting from Becton coming back. I totally agree with you. The way I see it we are 6 starters and a few back ups short of being able to compete with the best teams. Over the next 2 offseasons I expect the Jets to add starters to C, RG, TE, Edge, LB and CB, plus reserve safety and OT. Could be accomplished in one offseason but 2 us more realistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesr Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 26 minutes ago, Pichula said: 3 and outs happen. The offense can’t sit on the sideline for an entire quarter because they had one 3 and out Opposition scoring happens too. The defense can't be expected to shut out an opponent just because our offense can't move the ball. Was the defense to blame in Denver too? They were on the field for nearly 36 minutes overall. 1st quarter the offense only had 3m 49s of possession, ran 7 plays and netted 6 whole yards in that time, and we were 10-0 down at the end, same as yesterday. Half time deficit was 17 points, same as yesterday. At what point is the offense actually held accountable for failing to function? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Island Leprechaun Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 9 minutes ago, jamesr said: Opposition scoring happens too. The defense can't be expected to shut out an opponent just because our offense can't move the ball. Was the defense to blame in Denver too? They were on the field for nearly 36 minutes overall. 1st quarter the offense only had 3m 49s of possession, ran 7 plays and netted 6 whole yards in that time, and we were 10-0 down at the end, same as yesterday. Half time deficit was 17 points, same as yesterday. At what point is the offensey actually held accountable for failing to function? They're completely accountable. They were terrible. But so was the defense, although the roughing the passer call was dreadful both as a call and because it gave Atlanta new life. However, the defense has to stop 3 and long. Ryan simply carved up the secondary, and Patterson looked like Jim Brown. It's a reciprocal equation. Either side of the ball can help the other. In this case, as in Denver, neither functioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flgreen Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 1 hour ago, jamesr said: Wow. Offense gains 16 yards and no first downs on it's first three possessions and it's the defense's fault that we fall behind? It's 2021. You don't win games by shutting out the opponent or holding them to 10 points any more. You have to score, and score often. It's certainly moving to an O centered league, but you still have to play good D if you want to win games. Of the 30 teams that have played this week, 2 scored 10 or less points, 14 scored 20 or less. The Browns scored 42 and lost. If you want to win, yes you must score, but you also have to keep the other guys from scoring. Good D's still matter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Nicco Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 30 minutes ago, jamesr said: Opposition scoring happens too. The defense can't be expected to shut out an opponent just because our offense can't move the ball. Was the defense to blame in Denver too? They were on the field for nearly 36 minutes overall. 1st quarter the offense only had 3m 49s of possession, ran 7 plays and netted 6 whole yards in that time, and we were 10-0 down at the end, same as yesterday. Half time deficit was 17 points, same as yesterday. At what point is the offense actually held accountable for failing to function? better to give up a 70 yard bomb than an 8 minute TD drive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesr Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 10 minutes ago, flgreen said: It's certainly moving to an O centered league, but you still have to play good D if you want to win games. Of the 30 teams that have played this week, 2 scored 10 or less points, 14 scored 20 or less. The Browns scored 42 and lost. If you want to win, yes you must score, but you also have to keep the other guys from scoring. Good D's still matter. So far our D has given up 121 points. That's 19th in the league and on a par with 5 of the top 8 teams in the standings (Cowboys, Packers, Chargers, Rams, Bucs). So far our O has scored 67 points. That's 32nd in the league. Rock bottom. Winless Detroit have scored 98. Winless Jacksonville have scored 93. Our D is not great, maybe not even good. A bit below average is probably a fair description. Our O is woeful. They'd need to have scored 70% more points to rank in the same 19th spot as the D. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flgreen Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 6 minutes ago, jamesr said: So far our D has given up 121 points. That's 19th in the league and on a par with 5 of the top 8 teams in the standings (Cowboys, Packers, Chargers, Rams, Bucs). So far our O has scored 67 points. That's 32nd in the league. Rock bottom. Winless Detroit have scored 98. Winless Jacksonville have scored 93. Our D is not great, maybe not even good. A bit below average is probably a fair description. Our O is woeful. They'd need to have scored 70% more points to rank in the same 19th spot as the D. The Jets O sucks, no question. I wa mearly reacting to the thought that it's 2021 and you don't win by playing good D. BTW, both sides of the ball were guilty Sunday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 6 hours ago, derp said: Irresponsible decisions made after Fitzpatrick's second season further crippled the franchise, so I'd firmly disagree they've been rebuilding since then. Maccagnan tried to squeeze blood from a stone and the roster is still paying for it. And I outlined why the roster was so far from being competitive. Not sure what else I can say there. I didn't say Jets fans lack patience or that frustration isn't justified. The team sucks, it's sucked for a while, it's frustrating to watch, I get all of that. I don't see what the path to being significantly better now would have been within the framework they're clearly working in - and I think the framework is sustainable. In my opinion this is a better version of what Idzik did - and I think it's fair to say that exactly how much better is very much up for debate. He completely decimated the roster in two offseasons and then Maccagnan went wild and made things semi-competitive. Douglas has decimated the roster in two offseasons and I guess we'll see where things go from here. You don't exactly see NFL franchises flip from bad to sustainably competitive so I'm honestly not sure how long that takes, and I'm not sure Douglas is the guy to do it. But I don't think it happens in two offseasons. We have been rebuilding since after Fitz left that’s basically indisputable. Who cares what it is called? Any Jets fan who lacked patience bandwagoned to another team long ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 5 minutes ago, jgb said: We have been rebuilding since after Fitz left that’s basically indisputable. Who cares what it is called? Any Jets fan who lacked patience bandwagoned to another team long ago. Even the 2015 season was called a "competitive rebuild". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lith Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 Has beena failure on both sides of the ball so far. Each of the last two games, the defensive has given up points on each of the first three drives. We were able to beat Tennessee because the D stiffened in the red zone and we were only down 9. Yesterday, we were down 17. Whole team has started horrifically in the last few games. Denver also scored on two of their first three drives. Yes the offense has started slowly, but so has the defense. Saleh/Lafleur and Ulbrich need to get this stuff figured out during the bye. We are not built to come back two or three scores down every game. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derp Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 16 minutes ago, jgb said: We have been rebuilding since after Fitz left that’s basically indisputable. Who cares what it is called? Any Jets fan who lacked patience bandwagoned to another team long ago. I think if you want to say a GM trying to build a competitive roster was rebuilding then sure the Jets have been rebuilding since after Fitz left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 1 minute ago, derp said: I think if you want to say a GM trying to build a competitive roster was rebuilding then sure the Jets have been rebuilding since after Fitz left. Congratulations we have found the one thing more dull than the watching the Jets: Internet semantics debates lol Doesnt matter what you call it. We are the worst team in the NFL since 2016 with no light visible at the end of the tunnel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derp Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 26 minutes ago, jgb said: Congratulations we have found the one thing more dull than the watching the Jets: Internet semantics debates lol Doesnt matter what you call it. We are the worst team in the NFL since 2016 with no light visible at the end of the tunnel. Internet semantics indeed haha. I will absolutely quibble with language and I apologize for that. They’ve absolutely been bad since then. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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