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Denzel Mims: # 1 in the NFL in Yards per Reception and Yards per Target


Jetsfan80

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3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

That's the real question, isn't it?

Why does Saleh and LaFluer not want to see a larger sample size for Mims.

If we all had an answer that that, we'd have more to discuss.

Because of locker room politics 

 

there’s no valid reason why trash heap bums like Cole should be playing over Mims

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2 hours ago, Warfish said:

That's the real question, isn't it?

Why does Saleh and LaFluer not want to see a larger sample size for Mims.

If we all had an answer that that, we'd have more to discuss.

Nothing he's done on the field justifies the small sample size, that's for sure.  2 snaps and 1 target was all it took for him to be the 3rd leading receiver on the team in Week 1.  And this past week all it took was 3 targets for him to lead the team in receiving yardage all the way up until late in the 4th quarter when Davis and Cole barely snuck by him on the stat sheet.  

Whatever he's doing wrong in practice and on gameday is made up for by his productivity when compared to the other WR's on the team.  Numbers don't lie. 

So really, I don't much care what he's doing wrong behind the scenes or during games.   If what he's doing is egregious, trade or release him.  Barring that, put him on the field.  Period.  Especially coming off the bye week when they'll have plenty of time to have sorted some things out.

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34 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Nothing he's done on the field justifies the small sample size, that's for sure.  2 snaps and 1 target was all it took for him to be the 3rd leading receiver on the team in Week 1.  And this past week all it took was 3 targets for him to lead the team in receiving yardage all the way up until late in the 4th quarter when Davis and Cole barely snuck by him on the stat sheet.  

Whatever he's doing wrong in practice and on gameday is made up for by his productivity when compared to the other WR's on the team.  Numbers don't lie. 

So really, I don't much care what he's doing wrong behind the scenes or during games.   If what he's doing is egregious, trade or release him.  Barring that, put him on the field.  Period.  Especially coming off the bye week when they'll have plenty of time to have sorted some things out.

Do you see any possible risks to Saleh and Co. if they play Mims?  

With the players, the team, the guys who have done everything Saleh and Co. have asked of them, especially the WR's who will, presumably, lose time/be benched for Mims?

And I guess I keep asking this, but it keeps lingering as a question: 

If it's so obvious to you and others that Mims is great and ultra-productive, why can't Saleh seem to see it, or what possible motivation would he have (given it's his job on the line) to see it and willfully ignore it?

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8 minutes ago, Warfish said:

 

And I guess I keep asking this, but it keeps lingering as a question: 

If it's so obvious to you and others that Mims is great and ultra-productive, why can't Saleh seem to see it, or what possible motivation would he have (given it's his job on the line) to see it and willfully ignore it?

Ssshhhh!  It's only a bunch of folks here who have dreamed up this "Mims is god" hogwash.   

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1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Do you see any possible risks to Saleh and Co. if they play Mims?  

With the players, the team, the guys who have done everything Saleh and Co. have asked of them, especially the WR's who will, presumably, lose time/be benched for Mims?

And I guess I keep asking this, but it keeps lingering as a question: 

If it's so obvious to you and others that Mims is great and ultra-productive, why can't Saleh seem to see it, or what possible motivation would he have (given it's his job on the line) to see it and willfully ignore it?


Until Saleh proves he knows what he’s doing I’ll assume he simply doesn’t.  

But even if we assume he does, even high level professionals at their craft can lack objectivity and/or be quite stubborn to a fault.  This might be one of those times.

Lastly, Saleh’s job isn’t on the line any time soon.  So he can take risks like these to “prove a point” or establish team culture.  However, I also recall either Saleh or Lafleur also said they envision Mims to play a Deebo Samuel role in this offense, which is troubling.  @Paradis

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:


Until Saleh proves he knows what he’s doing I’ll assume he simply doesn’t.  

But even if we assume he does, even high level professionals at their craft can lack objectivity and/or be quite stubborn to a fault.  This might be one of those times.

Lastly, Saleh’s job isn’t on the line any time soon.  So he can take risks like these to “prove a point” or establish team culture.  However, I also recall either Saleh or Lafleur also said they envision Mims to play a Deebo Samuel role in this offense, which is troubling.  @Paradis

Also being wrong about one thing wouldn't make Saleh a piece of garbage coach. 

Purity tests say a lot more about the people applying them than the intended subjects.

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1 hour ago, munchmemory said:

Ssshhhh!  It's only a bunch of folks here who have dreamed up this "Mims is god" hogwash.   

Oh stop it already.  Absolutely no one is calling Mims a god, elite, great, or any other silly adjectives you’re pretending we use to try to make your point.

Mims very clearly doesn’t suck, especially when compared to the other WRs on the team.  That’s absolutely all we are suggesting. 

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54 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Until Saleh proves he knows what he’s doing I’ll assume he simply doesn’t.  

Respectfully, this argument doesn't carry much weight to me.  Saleh, even in the worst evaluation of him, assuredly knows more about football and on-field talent than you do, or I do. 

If you or I can see it, he can see it, be assured.  There is no universe where you're a better talent evaluator than he is, lol.

54 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

But even if we assume he does, even high level professionals at their craft can lack objectivity and/or be quite stubborn to a fault.  This might be one of those times.

Lastly, Saleh’s job isn’t on the line any time soon.  So he can take risks like these to “prove a point” or establish team culture.  However, I also recall either Saleh or Lafleur also said they envision Mims to play a Deebo Samuel role in this offense, which is troubling.  @Paradis

So theory two, which seems to be the real theory here, is Saleh is trying to prove a point or establish his expectations/rules, expectations/rules that so far Mims has not met.

And you want him to abandon that.

I don't know, I think I'd think alot less of Saleh for abandoning his coaching principles and systems five weeks in to his career as a Head Coach.  Him doing that would basically seal his fate as an NFL Head Coach IMO.  It would reek of fear and desperation, would lose the locker room instantly as players see it's no longer about playing by Saleh's rules, and if Saleh is that fearful and that desperate five weeks in that he would abandon his principles and abandon his belief in team building, I wouldn't want him anywhere near this team. 

Spineless fearful flip-flopping no-principles jellyfish rarely win Super Bowls.

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1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Oh stop it already.  Absolutely no one is calling Mims a god, elite, great, or any other silly adjectives you’re pretending we use to try to make your point.

Mims very clearly doesn’t suck, especially when compared to the other WRs on the team.  That’s absolutely all we are suggesting. 

Come on, 80.  Please give me a little creative license.

But you're really going to tell me that you have not read folks here fawning over the guy for weeks now?

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3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Respectfully, this argument doesn't carry much weight to me.  Saleh, even in the worst evaluation of him, assuredly knows more about football and on-field talent than you do, or I do. 

If you or I can see it, he can see it, be assured.  There is no universe where you're a better talent evaluator than he is, lol.

So theory two, which seems to be the real theory here, is Saleh is trying to prove a point or establish his expectations/rules, expectations/rules that so far Mims has not met.

And you want him to abandon that.

I don't know, I think I'd think alot less of Saleh for abandoning his coaching principles and systems five weeks in to his career as a Head Coach.  Him doing that would basically seal his fate as an NFL Head Coach IMO.  It would reek of fear and desperation, would lose the locker room instantly as players see it's no longer about playing by Saleh's rules, and if Saleh is that fearful and that desperate five weeks in that he would abandon his principles and abandon his belief in team building, I wouldn't want him anywhere near this team. 

Spineless fearful flip-flopping no-principles jellyfish rarely win Super Bowls.

 

I mean, again, if Mims' is such a problem that he's going against Saleh's culture/philosophy, then trade him.  It's pretty simple.

Since he hasn't been traded and saw the field this Sunday (unlike earlier in the season when he was a healthy scratch several weeks in a row), then I can only assume nothing Mims is doing is egregiously bad.  In that case, figure it out over these 2 weeks and increase his snap count/targets.

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3 minutes ago, munchmemory said:

Come on, 80.  Please give me a little creative license.

But you're really going to tell me that you have not read folks here fawning over the guy for weeks now?

Some of that fawning is tongue in cheek.  But yes, I have noticed it.  Anyone saying he's elite/great/etc is over-stating things likely will end up wrong on that one.  In reality his upside is a quality WR2.

But meanwhile, however, your criticism of Mims' play goes too far in the other direction.  You say he isn't really any good/sucks and he very clearly doesn't.  For a team that's been devoid of quality receivers for decades, it's an odd take.  

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1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I mean, again, if Mims' is such a problem that he's going against Saleh's culture/philosophy, then trade him.  It's pretty simple.

Why?  His trade value is near nil at this stage.  And he could always come around (and perhaps he is already, he's been active, and got more plays, right?)

Sadly, us fan-pundits will never truly know WHY if Mims starts getting more time.  Did Saleh give in?  Did Mims break and start doing whatever Saleh wanted?  We fans can never truly know.

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Since he hasn't been traded and saw the field this Sunday (unlike earlier in the season when he was a healthy scratch several weeks in a row), then I can only assume nothing Mims is doing is egregiously bad.  In that case, figure it out over these 2 weeks and increase his snap count/targets.

I hope Mims puts in the work and effort in and meets Coach Saleh's expectations, if that is in fact the issue.

If, as you theorize, Saleh can't see Mims is better than the other WR's, or he has unrealistic team building principles, then I hope he considers your wisdom this bye week, and reverses course.

Whatever the case, we clearly need the offensive help.  Being dead last in offense, again, is less than fun. 

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6 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Why?  His trade value is near nil at this stage.  And he could always come around (and perhaps he is already, he's been active, and got more plays, right?)

Sadly, us fan-pundits will never truly know WHY if Mims starts getting more time.  Did Saleh give in?  Did Mims break and start doing whatever Saleh wanted?  We fans can never truly know.

If its all about the culture/philosophy, it doesn't matter what his trade value is.  You move him for the sake of moving him so as to not disrupt the culture and make a statement.  Or cut him, if necessary. 

And the idea "he could always come around" is exactly my point:  Saleh clearly seems to think he will.  So why not give him more opportunities to get on the field in that case?  What exactly do we have to lose? 

We have a QB who loves to throw it deep/play YOLO ball when plays break down, and Mims is a deep threat with good hands capable of catching off target passes better than anyone else on the team.  Sounds like a pretty good fit to me. 

And even if they're trying to "reign in" Wilson on those type of plays, Mims is still a good Red Zone threat, back shoulder throw guy, or even a guy you can "post up" on shorter throws.  There's a lot you can do with him.  Just because the system prefers smaller receivers doesn't mean there aren't simple, easy ways to get him involved without taking your other receivers off the field a ton.  

  

6 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I hope Mims puts in the work and effort in and meets Coach Saleh's expectations, if that is in fact the issue.

If, as you theorize, Saleh can't see Mims is better than the other WR's, or he has unrealistic team building principles, then I hope he considers your wisdom this bye week, and reverses course.

Whatever the case, we clearly need the offensive help.  Being dead last in offense, again, is less than fun. 

Exactly.  Please make this simple request happen, Saleh & coaching staff.  

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On 10/11/2021 at 1:17 PM, Jetsfan80 said:

But he can't make catches out of the slot so he sucks.

 

Yards per Reception leaders:

  1. Denzel Mims, NYJ:  24.3
  2. Quez Watkins, PHI:  20.5
  3. Henry Ruggs, LV:  20.5
  4. Ja'Marr Chase, CIN:  19.8
  5. Deonte Harris, NO:  19.7
  6. David Njoku, CLE:  18.6
  7. Bryan Edwards, LV:  18.2
  8. Deebo Samuel, SF:  17.7
  9. Van Jefferson, LAR:  17.3
  10. Marquise Brown, BAL:  17.2

 

Yards per Target leaders:

  1. Denzel Mims, NYJ:  18.3
  2. Quez Watkins, PHI:  15.7
  3. David Njoku, CLE:  15.3
  4. Ja'Marr Chase, CIN:  13.0
  5. Henry Ruggs, LV:  12.4
  6. Christian Kirk, ARI:  12.3
  7. Marquise Brown, BAL:  11.6
  8. CJ Uzomah, CIN:  11.5
  9. Dallas Goedert, PHI:  11.4
  10. Maxx Williams, ARI:  11.4

 

@The Crusher

 

denzel washington GIF

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9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Some of that fawning is tongue in cheek.  But yes, I have noticed it.  Anyone saying he's elite/great/etc is over-stating things likely will end up wrong on that one.  In reality his upside is a quality WR2.

But meanwhile, however, your criticism of Mims' play goes too far in the other direction.  You say he isn't really any good/sucks and he very clearly doesn't.  For a team that's been devoid of quality receivers for decades, it's an odd take.  

Not directed at you, but I don't think most of that stuff is tongue in cheek.   For whatever reason, many "Mimsists" truly believe he is a beast.  Maybe his blossoming is to come.  So far, I have not seen it.   

But as I've said before:  Are we really to believe that the Jet coaching staff is intentionally sitting Mims for some nefarious reason even though they know his talent could help Zack and the team?   Does that really make any sense?  Or is it that he's just not beaten out the other receivers?   Only Saleh and LaFleur have the answer.

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7 minutes ago, munchmemory said:

Not directed at you, but I don't think most of that stuff isn't tongue in cheek.   For whatever reason, many "Mimsists" truly believe he is a beast.  Maybe his blossoming is to come.  So far, I have not seen it.   

But as I've said before:  Are we really to believe that the Jet coaching staff is intentionally sitting Mims for some nefarious reason even though they know his talent could help Zack and the team?   Does that really make any sense?  Or is it that he's just not beaten out the other receivers?   Only Saleh and LaFleur have the answer.

The bold is over.  Done.  His productivity in his brief appearances on the field is proof that he is indeed better than the other receivers.  He was the team's leading receiver on Sunday until late in the 4th quarter despite only getting targeted 3 times.  And if you produce in games, you should rise up the depth chart and get on the field.  Period.  Whatever is happening in practice, behind the scenes, etc can effectively be ignored if you're producing in actual regular season football games where it matters.

After all, its not like he'd be passing DeAndre Hopkins or Davante Adams on the depth chart if/when he moves up.  I get that opposing teams are probably keying on Corey Davis, but he's looked pathetic for the most part on the field.  Elijah Moore is one of three slot guys on the team and they're trying to force him to play on the outside, to disastrous results.  That experiment needs to end.  Crowder is making it very easy to let him walk after the season.  Keelan Cole is the only guy I've been impressed with other than Mims.

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2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Do you see any possible risks to Saleh and Co. if they play Mims?  

With the players, the team, the guys who have done everything Saleh and Co. have asked of them, especially the WR's who will, presumably, lose time/be benched for Mims?

 

this is it right there.

there is no way the guy who Mims replace for 10 snaps is happy about that. he beat Mims out in camp and every week. and now you want to sit him more?

and other players are watching. not just on the Jets but potential FAs.

whos going to want to come here knowing that if you win the job Saleh cave to fan pressure and sit you for a high draft pick.

great post @Warfish

 

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18 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The bold is over.  Done.  His productivity in his brief appearances on the field is proof that he is indeed better than the other receivers.  He was the team's leading receiver on Sunday until late in the 4th quarter despite only getting targeted 3 times.  And if you produce in games, you should rise up the depth chart and get on the field.  Period.  Whatever is happening in practice, behind the scenes, etc can effectively be ignored if you're producing in actual regular season football games where it matters.

After all, its not like he'd be passing DeAndre Hopkins or Davante Adams on the depth chart if/when he moves up.  I get that opposing teams are probably keying on Corey Davis, but he's looked pathetic for the most part on the field.  Elijah Moore is one of three slot guys on the team and they're trying to force him to play on the outside, to disastrous results.  That experiment needs to end.  Crowder is making it very easy to let him walk after the season.  Keelan Cole is the only guy I've been impressed with other than Mims.

you know could it be that Cole has it in his contract he has to start and play so many snaps?

he got a 1 year contract. this shows me he was going to play this year for a bigger contract next year. he couldn't take the chance of sitting on the bench. there were other teams who wanted him. could we be the only one to guarantee him to start? would we even know if this was the truth?

i believe that's what happened last year with Gore. he got a guarantee to be #2 behind Bell and if he got injured or traded he was #1. as bad as Gase was i cant believe he started Gore every week on his own.

 

 

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1 hour ago, munchmemory said:

Not directed at you, but I don't think most of that stuff is tongue in cheek.   For whatever reason, many "Mimsists" truly believe he is a beast.  Maybe his blossoming is to come.  So far, I have not seen it.   

But as I've said before:  Are we really to believe that the Jet coaching staff is intentionally sitting Mims for some nefarious reason even though they know his talent could help Zack and the team?   Does that really make any sense?  Or is it that he's just not beaten out the other receivers?   Only Saleh and LaFleur have the answer.

If unjustified fawning is your cause célèbre might I suggest you redirect your efforts toward those who have already compiled an impressive list of excuses for Zach's slow start?

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42 minutes ago, doitny said:

there is no way the guy who Mims replace for 10 snaps is happy about that. he beat Mims out in camp and every week. and now you want to sit him more?

Who cares if the receiver he replaces on the depth chart is happy?  All of our receivers have sucked so far.  They don't have a leg to stand on.

Question:  In your mind, does a depth chart stay stagnant over the course of a season, or is it constantly evaluated over the course of a season?  Because if its the former, why is Braxton Berrios not getting as many snaps as he used to?  He was our most-targeted WR the first several weeks and getting a gaudy % of the snaps.

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34 minutes ago, doitny said:

you know could it be that Cole has it in his contract he has to start and play so many snaps?

he got a 1 year contract. this shows me he was going to play this year for a bigger contract next year. he couldn't take the chance of sitting on the bench. there were other teams who wanted him. could we be the only one to guarantee him to start? would we even know if this was the truth?

I sincerely doubt that's in his contract, and even if it is, I'm not advocating for Mims to take snaps away from Cole.  I am advocating him taking snaps away from Corey Davis, Jamison Crowder and Eliah Moore.  3 guys who have sucked and not earned their snaps, and in Moore's case, a guy who is being played out of position.

Crowder and Cole's contracts expire after this season.  Mims has 2 more years on his rookie deal after 2021.  It doesn't make any sense to be worried about the feelings of guys who aren't a lock to be here in 2022 anyways.

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2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Who cares if the receiver he replaces on the depth chart is happy?  All of our receivers have sucked so far.  They don't have a leg to stand on.

Question:  In your mind, does a depth chart stay stagnant over the course of a season, or is it constantly evaluated over the course of a season?  Because if its the former, why is Braxton Berrios not getting as many snaps as he used to?  He was our most-targeted WR the first several weeks and getting a gaudy % of the snaps.

you got to care cause the rest of the league is watching. FA might not come here if they know we cave to fan pressure and bench them over draft picks.

Depth charts can chance but its very hard for backups to move up. they dont get the reps that starters do during the week. 

Berrios is getting less snaps because Crowder missed the first 3 games.

you cant bench Davis. he is your rookie QBs favorite target. in fact he targets him a little too much thats why Davis gets a lot of bad throws his way. Zach is comfortable with him. i dont think you want to take that away from him.

Mims deserves more playing time. but not to bench one of the starters, Mims is not there yet. 

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4 hours ago, doitny said:

you got to care cause the rest of the league is watching. FA might not come here if they know we cave to fan pressure and bench them over draft picks.

Depth charts can chance but its very hard for backups to move up. they dont get the reps that starters do during the week. 

Berrios is getting less snaps because Crowder missed the first 3 games.

you cant bench Davis. he is your rookie QBs favorite target. in fact he targets him a little too much thats why Davis gets a lot of bad throws his way. Zach is comfortable with him. i dont think you want to take that away from him.

Mims deserves more playing time. but not to bench one of the starters, Mims is not there yet. 

I'm not sure @Jetsfan80 (or anyone) is arguing Davis/Crowder/Cole should be "benched." We are saying Mims should dress certainly and be rotated in more, starting with situational deep shots and red zone play.

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