All this talk of patience……How’s Indy w/Ballard?

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yeah that's a solid rate.  And when they don't make the playoffs they tend to bottom out.  That's the way to do it.  Strive for the playoffs or tank.  Then draft a QB.

More NFL teams need to operate like NBA teams.  No one likes tanking but it can be effective, and the rules are set up to reward it.  

The rules are definitely set up to reward it. The only check though is most HCs don't survive a tank season.

[Jetsfan80]

8 minutes ago, playtowinthegame said:

If Indy fires Chris Ballard this coming off-season he's got a good chance at becoming a GM again. On the other hand if Joe Douglas were fired at the conclusion of this season I doubt he's getting offers to be the GM for another NFL team ever again after his tenure with the Jets. 

The overwhelming majority of GM's who get fired never get to be GM's again.  That's not the strike against Douglas you think it would be.

And if we did fire Douglas, no, he wouldn't immediately get another GM job, but he'd certainly get offers for higher level front office positions immediately.  He's well respected in league circles and everyone knows that the Jets' ownership is a dumpster fire.  

I'm not saying he won't deserve to get fired but I'm just saying you're wrong about how he'll be viewed around the NFL.  

This will all be moot, however, as no matter how poorly the 2021 Jets perform, Douglas is going nowhere this offseason at minimum.  The Johnson's have zero interest in hiring a new GM again right now or paying multiple GM's and HC's at the same time.  It's Douglas' show in 2022 and probably 2023 as well unless there's a scandal or things get VERY ugly.

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The overwhelming majority of GM's who get fired never get to be GM's again.  That's not the strike against Douglas you think it would be.

And if we did fire Douglas, no, he wouldn't immediately get another GM job, but he'd certainly get offers for higher level front office positions immediately.  He's well respected in league circles and everyone knows that the Jets' ownership is a dumpster fire.  

I'm not saying he won't deserve to get fired but I'm just saying you're wrong about how he'll be viewed around the NFL.  

JD will be employed by the league as long as he cares to be. Worst case scenario is he is an example of Peter Principle. By all accounts he was good at his previous job. Contrasted with guys like Idzik (never had a talent-eval position before becoming GM) and Macc (stunk at his previous job and was about to be canned when hired as GM).

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, jgb said:

The rules are definitely set up to reward it. The only check though is most HCs don't survive a tank season.

Right, which is why any tanking that occurs is a front office/ownership decision, not a HC decision.  Any properly tanking team should fire their HC midseason and instruct the interim coach to do their bidding.

[jgb]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Right, which is why any tanking that occurs is a front office/ownership decision, not a HC decision.  Any properly tanking team should fire their HC midseason and instruct the interim coach to do their bidding.

Absolutely true. Fire HC, talk to interim candidates and see who is willing to take the job with a mandate to play the young'uns. 

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, jgb said:

JD will be employed by the league as long as he cares to be. Worst case scenario is he is an example of Peter Principle. By all accounts he was good at his previous job. Contrasted with guys like Idzik (never had a talent-eval position before becoming GM) and Macc (stunk at his previous job and was about to be canned when hired as GM).

Idzik is pretty well respected too.  He worked his way up with the Buccaneers from 1996 to 2004, had high level positions with the Cardinals and Seahawks, and has been employed by the Jaguars since 2015 (though his role there has been more vague).  Though you're definitely right he didn't have much of a personnel background.

Hence why I don't rip on Idzik nearly as much as I do Maccagnan.  Idzik's lousy 2014 draft was no worse than any of Macc's 5 drafts, and his 2013 draft class was probably the best one we've had in the last decade+.

[playtowinthegame]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

The overwhelming majority of GM's who get fired never get to be GM's again.  That's not the strike against Douglas you think it would be.

And if we did fire Douglas, no, he wouldn't immediately get another GM job, but he'd certainly get offers for higher level front office positions immediately.  He's well respected in league circles and everyone knows that the Jets' ownership is a dumpster fire.  

I'm not saying he won't deserve to get fired but I'm just saying you're wrong about how he'll be viewed around the NFL.  

I look at Ballard like a John Dorsey. 

[jgb]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Idzik is pretty well respected too.  He worked his way up with the Buccaneers from 1996 to 2004, had high level positions with the Cardinals and Seahawks, and has been employed by the Jaguars since 2015 (though his role there has been more vague).  

Hence why I don't rip on Idzik nearly as much as I do Maccagnan.  Idzik's lousy 2014 draft was no worse than any of Macc's 5 drafts, and his 2013 draft class was probably the best one we've had in the last decade+.

Idzik is respected in his niche -- my point was he was overpromoted to GM.

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, playtowinthegame said:

I look at Ballard like a John Dorsey. 

Probably an accurate take.  Dorsey is one of very few retread GM's in recent history.  

[playtowinthegame]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Right, which is why any tanking that occurs is a front office/ownership decision, not a HC decision.  Any properly tanking team should fire their HC midseason and instruct the interim coach to do their bidding.

Are we tanking again?

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

Idzik is respected in his niche -- my point was he was overpromoted to GM.

Yep.  All the Johnson's have been able to get to work for them have been peter principle guys.  Douglas may well be one as well but he's certainly a better bet than the others were.  And of course he wouldn't be here without Gase anyways, so if Douglas does succeed here, the Johnson's get to take little credit for that.  

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, playtowinthegame said:

Are we tanking again?

Not unless we're prepared to give Wilson the Josh Rosen treatment.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Probably an accurate take.  Dorsey is one of very few retread GM's in recent history.  

I actually liked Dorsey the GM. Guy did build one of the more talented rosters. He was canned more for personality reasons. Apparently he's an a-hole on wheels.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yep.  All the Johnson's have been able to get to work for them have been peter principle guys.  Douglas may well be one as well but he's certainly a better bet than the others were.  And of course he wouldn't be here without Gase anyways, so if Douglas does succeed here, the Johnson's get to take little credit for that.  

For once at least we can't really criticize the process that led to JD. It was a decision that I could see the Steelers or Green Bay making. Doesn't mean he's guaranteed to succeed but at least it wasn't a clown show selection.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

For once at least we can't really criticize the process that led to JD. It was a decision that I could see the Steelers or Green Bay making. Doesn't mean he's guaranteed to succeed but at least it wasn't a clown show selection.

Yep.  And the process by which Douglas comes to many of his decisions has been sound too.  Hence why I'm not ready to jettison him.  At least not until 2023.  He deserves to be able to make the many picks in 2022 that he accumulated via the Adams and Darnold trades.  We just have to hope the results are better than they were in his 2020 draft.  And also of course hope that the 2021 class pans out.  

And it goes without saying that much of my willingness to give Douglas a long rope is centered on the opinion that the Johnson's are a sure bet to f**k up the next GM hire.  So we might as well hope Douglas learns from his mistakes rather than look to start over again.

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Not unless we're prepared to give Wilson the Josh Rosen treatment.

Steve Keim survived that one while the HC did not which seems a little backwards but shows again that tanking makes sense from front office perspective but rarely from coaching staff perspective.

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, jgb said:

Steve Keim survived that one while the HC did not which seems a little backwards but shows again that tanking makes sense from front office perspective but rarely from coaching staff perspective.

Wilks definitely got f**ked over.  No doubt about that.  It's a cold game.  

[jgb]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Wilks definitely got f**ked over.  No doubt about that.  It's a cold game.  

Sure is but Arizona currently regrets nothing  

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

Sure is but Arizona currently regrets nothing  

No doubt about it!  And I'm not saying Wilks is or would have been a good HC, but no HC deserves to get fired after one season unless there's a Washington Football Team/Gruden/Urban Meyer-like "scandal" going on behind the scenes.

It's also interesting how different 2 HC's look or are regarded when you go from Josh Rosen to Kyler Murray at QB....

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Wilks definitely got f**ked over.  No doubt about that.  It's a cold game.  

Not saying Wilks is or would have been a HC, but no HC deserves to get fired after one season unless there's a Washington Football Team/Gruden/Urban Meyer-like "scandal" going on behind the scenes.

Unless it's with a team employee or (for college coaches) a student, I don't think carrying on behind one's wife's back is a firing offense anymore outside maybe politics.

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, jgb said:

Unless it's with a team employee or (for college coaches) a student, I don't think carrying on behind one's wife's back is a firing offense anymore outside maybe politics.

Everywhere Urban Meyer goes, sketchiness follows.  I imagine there will be more coming every week about his shenanigans.  Wife stuff aside.  

[Biggs]

3 hours ago, jamesr said:

But I keep reading here that 1st and 2nd round picks should be automatic for any GM, and it's the later rounds and UDFA where a GM really makes it (or not).  

The draft is a lot like stock picking which is why good investors don't try and beat the market they try and get market returns.    GM's don't have any secret access to information anymore.  They are simply like professional money managers.  Building through the draft is a function of luck, numbers and the quality of any particular draft.  

Building through the draft is a money ball strategy based on the salary cap.  Every NFL team builds through the draft.  Every NFL team supplements the draft with free agents or by signing their own players before they hit FA.

Douglas can't draft until he hits on draft picks.  What we don't know is how much difference a good coaching staff makes in using the talent.

The Jets have had no continuity when it comes to talent development and we just hired a new coaching staff with no experience who are hell bent on putting in a system on O for a group of players that need a lot of development.  

[varjet]

28 minutes ago, playtowinthegame said:

 If Indy fires Chris Ballard this coming off-season he's got a good chance at becoming a GM again. On the other hand if Joe Douglas were fired at the conclusion of this season I doubt he's getting offers to be the GM for another NFL team ever again after his tenure with the Jets. Joe's transaction and picks in free agency and the draft respectively leave a lot to be desired. 

 

JD is going to get five years like Ballard has gotten.   His 2021 draft looks decent.   He picked a QB.  This week we think ZW stunk.  We thought he showed potential in week 1, and in week 4 he was ROTW.  

[jgb]

9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Everywhere Urban Meyer goes, sketchiness follows.  I imagine there will be more coming every week about his shenanigans.  Wife stuff aside.  

Yeah, probably tip of iceberg. There's a lot of other smoke wafting around too. He has to squash a different rumor tying him to a college team seemingly every week. 

[UntouchableCrew]

Colts are coming off an 11-5 season and have made the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years.

What does any of this have to do with the Jets and their decade long playoff drought? (and I say this as someone who is willing to be patient.)

[Bronx]

51 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

I'd rather suck trying then never even swing the bat

And it has worked greatly for us in so many years.

[jago]

15 hours ago, Larz said:

Please format correctly 

Useless op

are you in dark mode? switch over to light.

[David Harris]

15 hours ago, GreenFish said:

They’ve had a solid supporting cast for a couple years now. Since the 2018, you can say they’ve had a supporting cast that can support a rookie QB.

I think he’s a solid GM. He’s just been really conservative at the QB position. 

Exactly.  Ballard is great IMO.  Luck ruined his plan.  Had a team built to win and has made some swings with vet QB's that ultimately screwed him.  Rivers good enough to be decent but not win anything big.  Wentz had a history with Reich.  They haven't had the draft position to get a top QB.  And ironically due to the Wentz trade they gave up their high first round pick this year, not like there's any good QB's coming out anyway in 2022.

 

It just goes to show that without a top QB you are treading water no matter how strong the rest of the team is.  

[BP]

15 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

And he still thinks Jamal Adams is good

Sheldon Richardson too

[jgb]

10 minutes ago, David Harris said:

Exactly.  Ballard is great IMO.  Luck ruined his plan.  Had a team built to win and has made some swings with vet QB's that ultimately screwed him.  Rivers good enough to be decent but not win anything big.  Wentz had a history with Reich.  They haven't had the draft position to get a top QB.  And ironically due to the Wentz trade they gave up their high first round pick this year, not like there's any good QB's coming out anyway in 2022.

 

It just goes to show that without a top QB you are treading water no matter how strong the rest of the team is.  

Wentz was a sensible move.

[slimjasi]

What a brutal loss for the Colts last night. My goodness

[slimjasi]

51 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Colts are coming off an 11-5 season and have made the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years.

What does any of this have to do with the Jets and their decade long playoff draught? (and I say this as someone who is willing to be patient.)

Yep, exactly. 

The Colts are on the moon compared to us as an organization. 

[Larz]

37 minutes ago, jago said:

are you in dark mode? switch over to light.

[SAR I]

There are only 2 ways to win the Super Bowl:

1.  Draft a franchise quarterback and patiently build around him.

2.  Spend every nickel on proven veterans in free agency and plug holes with cheap kids in the draft including your quarterback.

Fun Fact:

Joe Flacco and Nick Foles won as many Super Bowls as Patrick Mahomes, Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers, and Drew Brees.

SAR I

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, Bronx said:

And it has worked greatly for us in so many years.

It's like lotto, gotta be in it, to win it!