Zach Wilson's struggles with play action

[derp]

48 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Fwiw, I think this is a huge common misconception, I see Maxman and other saying the same thing.  Make it easy, get him short throws, etc.  Well, that's what they are trying to do to get him going to start the game.  He's just, bad.  Flat out. 

To start the Falcons game they went; Carter for 5 yards, next 2 plays?  Short easy passes that Zach didnt make on 2nd for some reason and tucked it and ran and then or the on 3rd down, Crowder dropped a short pass to the sidelines.

Next drive, 1st down, Zach Wilson passes short for an incompletion, 2nd down run for loss, 3rd down was a short pass to Ty Johnson short of the line to gain.

Next drive, 1st down, Zach Wilson pass short for an incompletion, following play he stares down Cory Davis, screams at the top his lungs he's throwing to him and he gets picked.  

Following drive, great return and then they commit to the run and pick up their first, 1st down of the game, Wilson attempts 1 pass but they score a TD.

Following drive, 2 short passes to open the drive.  They loss yardage and then commit a penalty on 3rd down.

They're trying to get him going, he's just, terrible.  It sucks but it is what is right now.  We just have to hope he figures it out because I really dont think they can coddle him more than they already are.

 

I don’t think there’s a misconception. I’m not disputing that he’s been bad. What I’m saying is first down is a good down to throw and statistics bear that out.

Per the article they’ve thrown the ball five times on first down in the first quarter and run it on like 70% of first downs. 

Sample sizes are too small to really have any discernible information anyway, but setting aside there being a young quarterback, those aren’t good splits. I was surprised by the playcalling numbers and don’t think they’re good. That’s the main point.

[The Crusher]

1 minute ago, munchmemory said:

A while back, I wrote nearly the exact words.   These moves are about as quintessentially Jets as even Jehovah could imagine.  

After Zack's "illustrious" preseason performance, I asked folks here to pump the brakes as he had not faced a live fire, regular season, defense.  It was almost like I shot a puppy.    The problem with our fanbase is that we have been mired in anguish/disappointment for so long that any glimmer of hope results in screams on finding our savior or going to the Super Bowl.

After five games, Wilson looks lost and will continue to look worse as DCs review our game videos.   Even more lost is our OC who never should have been put in charge of the offense and Wilson's development.

See the anti Mims and Free DENZEL crowd can agree on something, hope for this place yet. 

[FidelioJet]

I think the articles premise is flawed in that winning games is not Saleh and LeFleurs priority right this year.

Teaching ZW is pretty much the only thing that matters. 

So if he's bad at play-action and it's a necessary tool for this offense - you should expect to see more of it.  They are trying to teach him the things he'll need to to excel at this level.  If he has an 80% adjusted completion level at the other stuff, then he has that figured out.  Once all y'all start understand what the Jets are doing here it'll be easier to not get so angry.

This is not a regular year - this is a teach your QB year.  He clearly has a long way to go and I don't love this strategy but it does seem clear from their words and actions that this is, in fact, what they're doing.

[JustInFudge]

27 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

I remember after preseason I said,” kid can handle the speed of the game!” Damn I was wrong, but it’s ok because I’m a fat guy typing on his phone and I don’t do it for a living. 

I know he was in shorts at home but all his throws were dead on at his pro day and I don’t mean just that silly thanksgiving day pick up toss 50 yards down field one. His short stuff and intermediate stuff seemed spot on. 

It started to go in camp and we got the,” he’s trying to see what he could get away with line!” Well? How’s that working for you?

I am 100% convinced the short stuff and intermediate stuff was there at one time. So what happen? I’m guessing it’s the speed of the game along with lack of support (RIP Knapp), system being installed crappy and Zach just simply not being ready for the game. No shame in that except the coaching staff never seem to think it’s possible he wouldn’t be ready. Now that’s scary .

Even worse? These are the same guys that are supposedly going to fix this? Wow, I honestly think it’s possible to fix but got to be straight  I don’t think the staff is capable of it. Nothing they’ve showed from their judgement to the execution suggest that. 
 

Well will be looking for a new QB in two to three years. Very possibly HC, GM and rest of coaching staff as well. It’s hard to fathom why anybody, like at all, would think this would work with at least a soft plan B.. mind blowing.

Let’s  get a guy that’s never been a head coach, a OC that never did the job, draft a raw rookie from a small school combine them with the worst roster in the NFL and let them have at it with no back up  plan.

 

 

Oh sh*t, I forgot about that and I was laced for even suggesting that it was stupid. I gave the comparison of practicing half courts shots in BBall to see if I could get away with it in the game as opposed to the shots that I know I will get in the game out of certain plays.  And then said, it's practice, he's not seeing what he's really going to see in the game, so how does he know if he can get away with it? 

Anywho, I also said it over and over again during the offseason; this was always going to be a disaster, at least early on.  The set up rookie HC and rookie QB has worked once, Johnson and Aikman.  However,  Jimmy Johnson was a HC at 2 spots and won a Nat'y in college before getting the Cowboys job....so it's not even apples to apples here.

Again, it's early, nobody knows sh*t about sh*t right now when it comes to this team. It's just frustrating because this was all very easily predictable and yet, nothing was done about it.

 

[JustInFudge]

30 minutes ago, Lith said:

Not only that, but as he drifts back he drfits right into the pass rush.  Last night, we saw numerous examples of Lamar Jackson stepping up into the pocket to avoid the rush that was being blocked behind him.  Zack does not step up. he drifts back to the rush.

The woe is Zach, the OL is awful excuse just does not hold water this year -- last two games, protection was good, he had plenty of clean pockets.  And missed plenty of throws.  We lost to Atlanta, imo, because Ryan was way better than Zach.  No shame in that as Ryan is an above average 10+ year vet and Zach has 5 games experience.  But he needs to be better -- much better over the next 12. 

The drifting has been a thing since college.  It's weird that it has not been addressed.  Especially in what really is a timing passing game he's running.  They have to address this during the bye week.  I dont care what LaFleur does, calls or how he adjusts, if his QB is the reason the timing of the play is off, then nothing will ever work. 

 

[shuler82]

59 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

The most mind blowing  thing is this is exactly what these scouts and coaches saw on tape at BYU and don’t seem like they are addressing it. Obviously it worked at BYU do to the talent disparity but damn! They had to know it wasn’t going to translate to the NFL.
 

Unless they thought Corey Davis was going to be Megatron, Cole was going to be Randy Moss, Carter was going to be LT, a random awful TE was morphing into Gronkowski and the O line was turning into Denver back in the day because of the offense and zone blocking scheme? Just weird. 

Well to be fair, the coaching staff probably figured that Mims would know all 22 spots on offense and defense by now,  and be crushing 65 yard FGs with ease so that they could get him on the field with the offense more than 3 snaps a game and he'd be that Moss/Rice/Megatron/ Largent/Maynard/Jim Brown but at WR playmaker this offense has been lacking.

[Snell41]

Zach Wilson struggles with everything because he’s not good enough.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[JustInFudge]

21 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I think the articles premise is flawed in that winning games is not Saleh and LeFleurs priority right this year.

Teaching ZW is pretty much the only thing that matters. 

So if he's bad at play-action and it's a necessary tool for this offense - you should expect to see more of it.  They are trying to teach him the things he'll need to to excel at this level.  If he has an 80% adjusted completion level at the other stuff, then he has that figured out.  Once all y'all start understand what the Jets are doing here it'll be easier to not get so angry.

This is not a regular year - this is a teach your QB year.  He clearly has a long way to go and I don't love this strategy but it does seem clear from their words and actions that this is, in fact, what they're doing.

The article has absolutely nothing to do with winning games, like not a single mention of winning anything. It has everything to do with how Zach is struggling and what LaFleur can do to help him.  Its quite good, filled with data and content.  You should read it.

[Scott Dierking]

Just now, JiFapono said:

The article has absolutely nothing to do with winning games, like not a single mention of winning anything. It has everything to do with how Zach is struggling and what LaFleur can do to help him.  Its quite good, filled with data and content.  You should read it.

Perfect week for the bye week here. NFL did the jets a favor with an early one. Now, how does this staff adjust?

[JustInFudge]

Just now, Scott Dierking said:

Perfect week for the bye week here. NFL did the jets a favor with an early one. Now, how does this staff adjust?

They should name this bye week - Teaching Zach Wilson the basics of playing QB in the NFL - and then actually like, teach him the basics of playing QB in the NFL.  

[sec101row23]

35 minutes ago, Lith said:

Not only that, but as he drifts back he drfits right into the pass rush.  Last night, we saw numerous examples of Lamar Jackson stepping up into the pocket to avoid the rush that was being blocked behind him.  Zack does not step up. he drifts back to the rush.

The woe is Zach, the OL is awful excuse just does not hold water this year -- last two games, protection was good, he had plenty of clean pockets.  And missed plenty of throws.  We lost to Atlanta, imo, because Ryan was way better than Zach.  No shame in that as Ryan is an above average 10+ year vet and Zach has 5 games experience.  But he needs to be better -- much better over the next 12. 

Agreed.  His movement in the pocket is poor, it’s like he has zero feel or instincts.  His inability to climb the pocket is also why we never see him scrambling out of the pocket.  It’s not just because he is a rookie either, Ive seen Trevor and Mac Jones move much better in the pocket.   
 

I've mentioned before that they need to work on Zach’s escapability, even when he tries to evade he’s turning the wrong way or spinning in the wrong direction.  Lots to work on.  

[sec101row23]

10 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

They should name this bye week - Teaching Zach Wilson the basics of playing QB in the NFL - and then actually like, teach him the basics of playing QB in the NFL.  

This is Zach’s required reading for the bye week.  
 

 

[The Crusher]

36 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

Perfect week for the bye week here. NFL did the jets a favor with an early one. Now, how does this staff adjust?

I’m going with not at all but time will tell. I just don’t think they have it in them. 

[Rhg1084]

Here’s a video breakdown of Zach’s struggles in play action. Bottom line is he’s not selling it enough 

 

 

[Bronx]

2 hours ago, The Crusher said:

The most mind blowing  thing is this is exactly what these scouts and coaches saw on tape at BYU and don’t seem like they are addressing it. Obviously it worked at BYU do to the talent disparity but damn! They had to know it wasn’t going to translate to the NFL.

B-I-N-G-O

[maury77]

When is Michael Nania coming out with his "100 Reasons to Believe In Zach Wilson" like he did with Sam Darnold?

https://jetsxfactor.com/2020/05/27/100-reasons-to-believe-in-new-york-jets-qb-sam-darnold/

[Bronx]

19 minutes ago, Rhg1084 said:

Here’s a video breakdown of Zach’s struggles in play action. Bottom line is he’s not selling it enough 

 

 

Hire this beast!

[sec101row23]

 

[carlito1171]

Uh oh....this is a huge issue moving forward if he can’t correct it. 
 

The whole offense is built off of marrying the run/pass and taking shots off of playaction 

[56mehl56]

3 hours ago, Daddy Wang Doodle said:

This isn't surprising, or at least shouldn't be. Feel like a lot of rookie qbs struggle with turning their back to the defense

Plus play action isn't really all that effective when the run game is netting what about 2 ypc. 

[FidelioJet]

48 minutes ago, Rhg1084 said:

Here’s a video breakdown of Zach’s struggles in play action. Bottom line is he’s not selling it enough 

 

 

 

The play action isn't working because there's no real run game threat.

Not because Zach's fake handoffs aren't good enough.

[Bronx]

12 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

 

Zach Wilson stares...

 

[56mehl56]

1 minute ago, Bronx said:

Zach Wilson stares...

 

Strangely , it kind of looks like him a bit .All he deer needs is a white headband.

[Bronx]

9 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Not because Zach's fake handoffs aren't good enough.

Sorry bud, but Dan Orlovsky is on point and you are on denial.

[sec101row23]

11 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

 

The play action isn't working because there's no real run game threat.

Not because Zach's fake handoffs aren't good enough.

Did you even watch the video?  He’s lazy and sloppy in his attempt to PA.   Plus, you don’t need to run the ball for a 5 yard average to be effective with play action, you just have to have enough run attempts to keep the defense honest and do it on down and distances where running the ball makes sense.  
 

 

[GangGreened]

33 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

 

The play action isn't working because there's no real run game threat.

Not because Zach's fake handoffs aren't good enough.

Not really. You don’t have to be gashing a defense with runs for play action to work. You just have to do it on the right down and distances. 
 

Wilson is just a terrible NFL QB right now. Not even his fault.

[FidelioJet]

36 minutes ago, Bronx said:

Sorry bud, but Dan Orlovsky is on point and you are on denial.

So, to be clear.  

You're saying that if Zach puts the ball six inches closer to the RBs stomach the WR's will be wide open..and LB's will break into the backfield.

Bottom line - there's little to no fear in the running game so no one is biting on anything.

Again, your point is, the most important part of the Play Action is the fake handoff and the effectiveness of the running game has no bearing?

Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

 

[GreenFish]

2 hours ago, JiFapono said:

They should name this bye week - Teaching Zach Wilson the basics of playing QB in the NFL - and then actually like, teach him the basics of playing QB in the NFL.  

What was your take of Zach as a prospect? The drifting was there as you noted. What were your thoughts on his play action passes and his short to intermediate route accuracy?

I don’t recall him missing such easy throws. I like him a ton early. Even more than Trevor. 

[kdels62]

1 hour ago, sec101row23 said:

 

I wish Orlovsky would post the play later on in the game where he completes the throw. It’d be curious to see what Zach does differently, because I believe the game prep is failing Zach/ Zach is failing his game prep. He’s starting games overthinking things because he’s following a script. 

[kdels62]

7 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

So, to be clear.  

You're saying that if Zach puts the ball six inches closer to the RBs stomach the WR's will be wide open..and LB's will break into the backfield.

Bottom line - there's little to no fear in the running game so no one is biting on anything.

Again, your point is, the most important part of the Play Action is the fake handoff and the effectiveness of the running game has no bearing?

Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

 

Is there a correlation between great play action performance and a good running game? Like one that you can prove and not just assume

[Augustiniak]

3 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

I wish Orlovsky would post the play later on in the game where he completes the throw. It’d be curious to see what Zach does differently, because I believe the game prep is failing Zach/ Zach is failing his game prep. He’s starting games overthinking things because he’s following a script. 

I think coaching is killing this team.  Neither side of the ball comes out sharp.  The defense is giving up long drives before it’s gassed and the offense can’t get first downs until the 5 minute mark in the 2nd quarter.  It would be one thing if the defense was killing it but the offense sucked, but no, the entire team looks overwhelmed until the half is nearly over.  Wilson does seem to process stuff better after he’s seen it, within games, which I guess is encouraging.

[sec101row23]

15 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

So, to be clear.  

You're saying that if Zach puts the ball six inches closer to the RBs stomach the WR's will be wide open..and LB's will break into the backfield.

Bottom line - there's little to no fear in the running game so no one is biting on anything.

Again, your point is, the most important part of the Play Action is the fake handoff and the effectiveness of the running game has no bearing?

Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

 

Ok, here is a really smart defensive coach refuting what you have been saying about play action passing.  It’s right at the 10 second mark in the video.  
 

 

[JohnnyLV]

I have been saying all along that Zach's struggles in the first half because the Jets are trying to "develop the run" or more accurately force the run. It is all so predictable. We start the game in 12, 22, and 21 personnel, struggle mightily, and then in the second half we go to 11 and 10 personnel and the offense blossoms.

Everyone thought that the "Shanahan" offense was this perfect fit for Zach and it is not. He needs to be in a more wide open read and react offense like Herbert and Mahomes and LaFleurs brothers version of the "Shanahan" offense which is much more wide open.

Article is very spot on

 

[FidelioJet]

8 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Is there a correlation between great play action performance and a good running game? Like one that you can prove and not just assume

I wasn't making any assertion just asking if your position is that

Play Action Pass success is based solely on the QB's fake handoff chicanery and doesn't have anything to do with the success of the run game.

Just wanted to verify if that was your position.  That's all.

[JustInFudge]

55 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Did you even watch the video?  He’s lazy and sloppy in his attempt to PA.   Plus, you don’t need to run the ball for a 5 yard average to be effective with play action, you just have to have enough run attempts to keep the defense honest and do it on down and distances where running the ball makes sense.  
 

 

It's funny, the guy who takes Tony Romo's word as gospel and tells people their dumb and dont anything about Football, oddly hasnt touched Dan Orvolosky basically saying he's wrong about how a play action works after lecturing us with his infinite knowledge.