Zach Wilson's struggles with play action

[kdels62]

1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

I wasn't making any assertion just asking if your position is that

Play Action Pass success is based solely on the QB's fake handoff chicanery and doesn't have anything to do with the success of the run game.

Just wanted to verify if that was your position.  That's all.

You weren’t talking to me. I just have a genuine question for you. Personally, I think a QB’s execution of play action and the OC’s play design matter more than the effectiveness of a teams run game overall. 

[sec101row23]

11 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

I wish Orlovsky would post the play later on in the game where he completes the throw. It’d be curious to see what Zach does differently, because I believe the game prep is failing Zach/ Zach is failing his game prep. He’s starting games overthinking things because he’s following a script. 

I’m not sure what they script or how ridged their scripting is, I have no idea.   His throwing mechanics are just too inconsistent right now.  I think he throws that ball on time, he just doesn’t get anything on it and it’s under thrown to the inside, those get picked the majority of the time. 

[kdels62]

1 minute ago, sec101row23 said:

I’m not sure what they script or how ridged their scripting is, I have no idea.   His throwing mechanics are just too inconsistent right now.  I think he throws that ball on time, he just doesn’t get anything on it and it’s under thrown to the inside, those get picked the majority of the time. 

I think you’re right but he makes the exact same throw later on in the game. He read the coverage correctly, he manipulated the defense and then he just missed which is weird. What I wanna know is: When he completes the same pass later on in the game does he approach it differently? Was it a different process or was it just bad mechanics on a throw he completes 8/10? 

[FidelioJet]

17 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Ok, here is a really smart defensive coach refuting what you have been saying about play action passing.  It’s right at the 10 second mark in the video.  
 

 

That's not even remotely what he said..

I heard nothing that he stated the fake handoff is the most important determination of the Play Action pass success.  It really is silly that you guys are even arguing this point.  It's absurd on its face.  

Moreover, you have to understand the context in what he's saying.  Yes, he said you don't need a running game to have play action success (it was a question) but then he literally said, you don't need a running game AT ALL to be successful in the passing game.  And the only reason to run the ball is to physically wear down a defense, give your skill players a break - so you can pass on them....

Again, it wasn't that you don't need a good running game for play action to work it was that you don't need a running game AT ALL for  passing to work.

Now believe him or not - I'm sure there are plenty of "really smart" coaches that will disagree with his statement, but let's not confuse reality here.

[ryu79]

Great article thanks for sharing, OP. 

[sec101row23]

1 minute ago, kdels62 said:

I think you’re right but he makes the exact same throw later on in the game. He read the coverage correctly, he manipulated the defense and then he just missed which is weird. What I wanna know is: When he completes the same pass later on in the game does he approach it differently? Was it a different process or was it just bad mechanics on a throw he completes 8/10? 

Lol…I’d love to get in the QB room and listen to what he’s saying on Monday morning.  Could be he gets a defensive look he was more comfortable and sure of, hard to say.  

[JustInFudge]

17 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

What was your take of Zach as a prospect? The drifting was there as you noted. What were your thoughts on his play action passes and his short to intermediate route accuracy?

I don’t recall him missing such easy throws. I like him a ton early. Even more than Trevor. 

Not sure if you're serious or not because I once again took a lot of heat going against the grain of the board/consensus at the QB position (TL is not generational, Wilson is not worth the #2 overall).  Hell, I'm still taking sh*t for it but I was pretty adamant Wilson was a huge project and I wanted the trade down but if it had to be QB, Fields or Lance.  Really dont feel like rehashing all those conversations (I suggest looking at the draft forum topics about QB's and Wilson) but I was highly concerned with his mechanics, footwork, pocket presence, decisions making, injury history, accuracy to all levels of the field (he struggled with anything not thrown to sidelines or 50/50 balls), being a 1 year wonder vs. a cup cake schedule and getting away with stuff that would never fly in a real college conference, let alone the NFL.

That said, what I liked was that he seemed to be a smooth athlete, with a live arm, student of the game, good head on his shoulders and accurate.  So honestly, as much as I didnt like him as a prospect, I never thought he'd be this bad.  He is tougher than I expected though, so that's a good thing. 

 

 

[sec101row23]

2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

That's not even remotely what he said..

I heard nothing that he stated the fake handoff is the most important determination of the Play Action pass success.  It really is silly that you guys are even arguing this point.  It's absurd on its face.  

Moreover, you have to understand the context in what he's saying.  Yes, he said you don't need a running game to have play action success (it was a question) but then he literally said, you don't need a running game AT ALL to be successful in the passing game.  And the only reason to run the ball is to physically wear down a defense, give your skill players a break - so you can pass on them....

Again, it wasn't that you don't need a good running game for play action to work it was that you don't need a running game AT ALL for  passing to work.

Now believe him or not - I'm sure there are plenty of "really smart" coaches that will disagree with his statement, but let's not confuse reality here.

Lol..ok 

[JustInFudge]

25 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Ok, here is a really smart defensive coach refuting what you have been saying about play action passing.  It’s right at the 10 second mark in the video.  
 

 

Oh, wow, interesting, I was told you know nothing about Football if you think that's how play action works.  lol

[FidelioJet]

17 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

You weren’t talking to me. I just have a genuine question for you. Personally, I think a QB’s execution of play action and the OC’s play design matter more than the effectiveness of a teams run game overall. 

Sorry about that....my fault.  

Okay, I understand your opinion just disagree with it. 

I believe the play action is designed to simply hold the LB's in place...just the threat of the play action is the primary driver.  QB and RB in the same spot essentially means the LB's have to stay in position until it's clear he can't hand it off.  Now, if the front 4 of a DL is stopping the run and the LB's aren't even really needed then they don't have to even worry about it at all...So they can sit back and react after the ball is actually handed off.

Would a better fake hold the LB's longer, sure. - of course...but I can't imagine how it's even close to the effectiveness of the running game in general.

[Bronx]

43 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Again, your point is, the most important part of the Play Action is the fake handoff and the effectiveness of the running game has no bearing?

Nope, it is not my point. He is flashing the play by his lack of basic mechanics.

[sec101row23]

1 minute ago, JiFapono said:

Oh, wow, interesting, I was told you know nothing about Football if you think that's how play action works.  lol

It’s laughable to think that a play that requires you to fake a run play and make it look as much like a run as possible, isn’t affected if the the actual fake isn’t done properly..Lol.   
 

It’s comical some of the stuff you read around here.  

[FidelioJet]

9 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Lol..ok 

I'm sorry, where did he say the fake handoff is what makes play action work?

I'm really do apologize, I guess I missed it...at what point in the video?

 

[kdels62]

1 minute ago, sec101row23 said:

Lol…I’d love to get in the QB room and listen to what he’s saying on Monday morning.  Could be he gets a defensive look he was more comfortable and sure of, hard to say.  

My lack of concern with Wilson as of now is the lack of trends in his errors not including short throws to his right, I mentioned those when I watched him predraft, those he has to fundamentally rework. Besides those though it feels like he doesn’t do anything wrong consistently. The throw he missed to Corey Davis to ice the game against Tennessee, he completed the same pass twice before he missed one. The 20 yard fade to Cole against Tennessee, he completed it to Berrios the week before and threw it out of bounds to Moore this week. The 20 yarder to Mims this past week was the same one he hit to Berrios in week 1 and missed to Davis this past week. 

He’s inconsistent in his inaccuracy but generally consistent in decision-making. His interceptions haven’t really been him getting fooled by coverage. Basically, I’m good waiting on him to calibrate to the speed of the game. 

[sec101row23]

1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

I'm sorry, where did he say the fake handoff is what makes play action work?

I'm really do apologize, I guess I missed it...at what point in the video?

 

Just stop.  First you said the Jets weren’t running the ball effectively and that’s why the PA wasn’t working.  I refuted that premise.   Now you are somehow refuting that the ball fake isnt important in PA passing.  You’re all over the place and sound pretty confused and foolish at this point. 

[JustInFudge]

23 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

I have been saying all along that Zach's struggles in the first half because the Jets are trying to "develop the run" or more accurately force the run. It is all so predictable. We start the game in 12, 22, and 21 personnel, struggle mightily, and then in the second half we go to 11 and 10 personnel and the offense blossoms.

Everyone thought that the "Shanahan" offense was this perfect fit for Zach and it is not. He needs to be in a more wide open read and react offense like Herbert and Mahomes and LaFleurs brothers version of the "Shanahan" offense which is much more wide open.

Article is very spot on

 

Why do people keep repeating this?  It's factually wrong.  Flat out.  Wrong.  They're not forcing anything other than try to get Zach in rhythm.  

6 of the first 8 plays the Jets ran vs. the Falcons, were passes.

Vs. the Titans, they were 3 run, 3 pass on the first 2 drives.  On the 3rd drive, Zach attempted 5 straight passes.  That's 8 vs 3 to start the game.

Denver?  First play of the game was a pass.  Even split on that drive.  2nd drive?  1 run, 2 passes.  Next drive, 10 passes vs. 3 runs.  That's 14 vs. 6 to start the game.

 

[GreenFish]

23 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Not sure if you're serious or not because I once again took a lot of heat going against the grain of the board/consensus at the QB position (TL is not generational, Wilson is not worth the #2 overall).  Hell, I'm still taking sh*t for it but I was pretty adamant Wilson was a huge project and I wanted the trade down but if it had to be QB, Fields or Lance.  Really dont feel like rehashing all those conversations (I suggest looking at the draft forum topics about QB's and Wilson) but I was highly concerned with his mechanics, footwork, pocket presence, decisions making, injury history, accuracy to all levels of the field (he struggled with anything not thrown to sidelines or 50/50 balls), being a 1 year wonder vs. a cup cake schedule and getting away with stuff that would never fly in a real college conference, let alone the NFL.

That said, what I liked was that he seemed to be a smooth athlete, with a live arm, student of the game, good head on his shoulders and accurate.  So honestly, as much as I didnt like him as a prospect, I never thought he'd be this bad.  He is tougher than I expected though, so that's a good thing. 

 

 

It was an honest question. A lot of people post on this forum; so, I was curious what your thoughts were.

I saw a lot of the good in Wilson and thought he was the top QB. I’m a little surprised at how bad he’s looked. So just trying to see what I missed.

I still think he has immense talent. But I severely underestimated how much coaching he needs.

[kdels62]

33 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

I’m not sure what they script or how ridged their scripting is, I have no idea.   His throwing mechanics are just too inconsistent right now.  I think he throws that ball on time, he just doesn’t get anything on it and it’s under thrown to the inside, those get picked the majority of the time. 

 

[sec101row23]

1 minute ago, kdels62 said:

 

Makes sense, that’s what we are seeing.  All in due time……..hopefully. 

[FidelioJet]

12 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

It’s laughable to think that a play that requires you to fake a run play and make it look as much like a run as possible, isn’t affected if the the actual fake isn’t done properly..Lol.   
 

It’s comical some of the stuff you read around here.  

You're mostly wrong - even with condescending tone - won't make you correct.

The primary driver of the PA success is going to be the effectiveness of the running game.

  

Of course if you execute the fake better it'll be better but everything has a risk reward.  Takes longer to hold the ball longer - less time to survey the field etc. 

But the effectiveness of the running game far outweighs the level of the fake.  

[Irish Jet]

Wilson, Fields and Lance were all clearly players who would have benefited from a year to sit.

Pisses me off that we didn’t even consider it. At least the Bears and 49ers did.

[FidelioJet]

17 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

 

This all seems pretty clear if you're actually watching him play.  He's clearly thinking far too much,  a bit gun shy, and playing very tight.

It's also why he's been so successful off platform.  Once he's running around he's not thinking - and making clean throws.

It's really why I'm not worried about this kid...it's all there - the game has to start slowing down a bit and he has to stop thinking so much.  Once everything is natural and not thinking you'll see a different player.

[Lurker89]

JFC us fans are really lost in the weeds beating each other senseless this season.

 

I'm over here like.

[Action Zachtion]

7 hours ago, Bronx said:

This is a recipe for disaster. Run on first down, run on second down, throw from third-and-long. With a plan like that, it is no surprise that Wilson has been so bad in the first quarter.

This 

4 hours ago, Lith said:

Not only that, but as he drifts back he drfits right into the pass rush.  Last night, we saw numerous examples of Lamar Jackson stepping up into the pocket to avoid the rush that was being blocked behind him.  Zack does not step up. he drifts back to the rush.

The woe is Zach, the OL is awful excuse just does not hold water this year -- last two games, protection was good, he had plenty of clean pockets.  And missed plenty of throws.  We lost to Atlanta, imo, because Ryan was way better than Zach.  No shame in that as Ryan is an above average 10+ year vet and Zach has 5 games experience.  But he needs to be better -- much better over the next 12. 

Your turn to trust GVR and step up into the front of the pocket next week 

[JohnnyLV]

Whenever I see threads like this all I can think is that some posters would rather be right about Zach being bad than actually see him to develop. Some seem to think he is the worst QB prospect ever. He has played 5 games.  All the bloviating about how bad Zach is is just purely annoying and to be honest mostly horsebleep cliches. 

[Albaniajet]

Watching Wentz and Jackson last night execute play action so flawlessly the cameraman didn’t even know where to point the camera. 
 

 

and the Jets have Suckopono

[Action Zachtion]

3 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Whenever I see threads like this all I can think is that some posters would rather be right about Zach being bad than actually see him to develop. Some seem to think he is the worst QB prospect ever. He has played 5 games.  All the bloviating about how bad Zach is is just purely annoying and to be honest mostly horsebleep cliches. 

It seems like they are staking out a position to later say "I was right.  I knew it.  Look at me!!!" When anyone taking a final position is silly at this point.  

The article says he's for the 4th best accuracy in the league in throws at 2.5 seconds or less.  There are lots of positive signs and some things he needs to clean up.   It's his fifth game.  Expecting more than that seems like an issue with the person who is upset at this point.  

[JohnnyLV]

6 minutes ago, Albaniajet said:

Watching Wentz and Jackson last night execute play action so flawlessly the cameraman didn’t even know where to point the camera. 
 

 

and the Jets have Suckopono

Seriously? Indy and the Ravens defenses played so soft it was ludicrous. Teams seem to never learn that the soft zone to "protect" a lead basically never ever works unless you are up 4 scores.

[56mehl56]

33 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

Wilson, Fields and Lance were all clearly players who would have benefited from a year to sit.

Pisses me off that we didn’t even consider it. At least the Bears and 49ers did.

Seriously what has 2-3 extra weeks provided Fields or Lance that Wilson didn't get. The Jets weren't going anywhere this year, they have basically an entire new team. There's no better way to build cohesiveness than by playing together in real games. If the Jets were a borderline contender with an established team and carry over coaches/systems I can buy your point  but that is not the case here.

[munchmemory]

13 minutes ago, Albaniajet said:

Watching Wentz and Jackson last night execute play action so flawlessly the cameraman didn’t even know where to point the camera. 
 

 

and the Jets have Suckopono

How did everyone in the league miss Jackson except for the Ravens?   Wow, he has really stepped up his overall game.  Probably the best running back in the NFL.  Now has become a pretty good passer, too.  Four passing TDs last night, two in critical moments.

[Albaniajet]

5 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Seriously? Indy and the Ravens defenses played so soft it was ludicrous. Teams seem to never learn that the soft zone to "protect" a lead basically never ever works unless you are up 4 scores.

Ever wonder why defenses always play great facing the Jets?

[Albaniajet]

Just now, munchmemory said:

How did everyone in the league miss Jackson except for the Ravens?   Wow, he has really stepped up his overall game.  Probably the vest running back in the NFL.  Now has become a pretty good passer, too.  Four passing TDs last night, two in critical moments.

I always liked Lamar but no way he develops like that under Adam Gase with our lousy offensive line and receivers 

[munchmemory]

Just now, Albaniajet said:

I always liked Lamar but no way he develops like that under Adam Gase with our lousy offensive line and receivers 

No doubt.  I remember everyone being shocked when Baltimore chose Harbaugh over Rex as HC.   But during his tenure, the Ravens are always good and in the playoff mix.  Sure they could have won a few more Super Bowls.   But I would have traded their success for ours in a split second.    Their fans get to watch entertaining/competitive football every week/season.

[jeremy2020]

6 hours ago, shuler82 said:

All seems so simple and obvious and yet…

If you're a super clever genius then you tend to look for super clever solutions even when a simple one will do..

[The Crusher]

1 hour ago, JiFapono said:

Not sure if you're serious or not because I once again took a lot of heat going against the grain of the board/consensus at the QB position (TL is not generational, Wilson is not worth the #2 overall).  Hell, I'm still taking sh*t for it but I was pretty adamant Wilson was a huge project and I wanted the trade down but if it had to be QB, Fields or Lance.  Really dont feel like rehashing all those conversations (I suggest looking at the draft forum topics about QB's and Wilson) but I was highly concerned with his mechanics, footwork, pocket presence, decisions making, injury history, accuracy to all levels of the field (he struggled with anything not thrown to sidelines or 50/50 balls), being a 1 year wonder vs. a cup cake schedule and getting away with stuff that would never fly in a real college conference, let alone the NFL.

That said, what I liked was that he seemed to be a smooth athlete, with a live arm, student of the game, good head on his shoulders and accurate.  So honestly, as much as I didnt like him as a prospect, I never thought he'd be this bad.  He is tougher than I expected though, so that's a good thing. 

 

 

I also remember watching some of the fake hand offs he made in college on film and somebody literally typed "He's not even getting it close to the running back."  Seems like a lot of stuff the average Joe could see but the guys scouting him missed?  Just weird. 100% way tougher and more likeable than I thought he would be as well.