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Sadly, I admit to feeling relief/validation in light of Darnold's struggles.


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6 minutes ago, HighPitch said:

Man you guys are just engrained with "the sky is falling" mentality.

Bud, we are Jets fans. We are already walking around on the tops of the clouds.

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Moving on from Sam was the correct decision regardless of what Zach becomes.  Perhaps we should have picked a different QB at #2 or even brought in a veteran stopgap, but Sam was not the long ter

It's almost as if having CMC in there made Sam look good.  

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Just now, HighPitch said:

He wants to be a SAR1. He makes solid statements that you cant argue with so much but his intention is to rile you up.

It like going to your friends house and seeing their kids report card. You say "wow he scored in the lowest percentile. 1% in reading. Your child is a bad reader. Statistically he couldnt be a worse reader"

And then wondering why you never get invited to dinner anymore

 

and to tack on to this: then, you ask as to why you dont get invited anymore by saying, "I was just reading the report card. It said that your child was the worst reader. Because theres no such thing as 0 percentile, so he is as bad as bad can be. I didnt say anything bad. Just stating fact that your child is illiterate. It's based on his report card, which I read..."

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Just now, Wit said:

I’m not giving up on Zach at all but I will say for Lamar that the entire offense was changed mid stream when flacco injured, and he still had no idea how to throw a football. He was a damn good running back. 

Yeah, I agree.

I think that's the point I was trying to make.  Saying something like, after 5 weeks, Zach is ranked slightly lower than Josh Allen and therefor he's less likely to succeed is just silly.

And sure the Balt. offense was changed - but no more than the Jets coming into a brand new offense, with brand new coaches, multiple starting rookies and all three starting WR's new to the team.   The situation he's being put in couldn't be challenging.

There is no doubt there's a long way to go for ZW, I don't expect him to get much better any time soon.  He has a long way to go, I'm not saying he's been good by any means - but, under these circumstances, this is pretty much what should have been expected.

People keep forgetting, the first three weeks he had NO chance with the way the OL was playing..ZERO.  Week 4 he flashed and won rookie of the week..

and Last week was a step back...two small steps forward one step back is what should be expected...This is going to be a three YEAR process...not 3 weeks...

 

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13 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

So Lamar Jackson after 6 games - was ranked 31st in the league - which somehow doesn't count...while Zach Wilson after 5 weeks is gloom and doom? 

As for Allen, you're looking a full-season where he was 26th vs. 5 games.  Again, what we know is he was last after 4 games (I don't have the time to find after 5, but I'm sure he last then too)

You started with rankings, not me.   I agree, all of these QB rankings simply aren't adequate, there are just too many variables - especially for rookies.  They're all being asked to do different things and are brought into very different situations.  ZW happens to have been brought into one of the more difficult situations possible and being asked to do more than most rookies. 

 Even you must realize ZW's circumstances are also playing a role in his performance. 

I'll leave it alone after this...

You're not necessarily wrong in what you are saying, but what we are all fighting is NYJ history. NYJ history says Wilson is going to be a bust. We heard a lot of the same excuses for Sam. 

I love Wilson's talent, but it's just hard to see it working out here. He is up against one of the most toxic cultures/stigmas in all of sports. Until I see real change, I am going to assume that this franchise won't be able to develop a legit QB prospect. 

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5 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

You're not necessarily wrong in what you are saying, but what we are all fighting is NYJ history. NYJ history says Wilson is going to be a bust. We heard a lot of the same excuses for Sam. 

I love Wilson's talent, but it's just hard to see it working out here. He is up against one of the most toxic cultures/stigmas in all of sports. Until I see real change, I am going to assume that this franchise won't be able to develop a legit QB prospect. 

I agree completely.  That is a very valid point with which I can not argue. 

But it still has nothing to do with him being ranked last and Josh Allen being ranked slightly higher (even if that were true)

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9 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Yeah, I agree.

I think that's the point I was trying to make.  Saying something like, after 5 weeks, Zach is ranked slightly lower than Josh Allen and therefor he's less likely to succeed is just silly.

And sure the Balt. offense was changed - but no more than the Jets coming into a brand new offense, with brand new coaches, multiple starting rookies and all three starting WR's new to the team.   The situation he's being put in couldn't be challenging.

There is no doubt there's a long way to go for ZW, I don't expect him to get much better any time soon.  He has a long way to go, I'm not saying he's been good by any means - but, under these circumstances, this is pretty much what should have been expected.

People keep forgetting, the first three weeks he had NO chance with the way the OL was playing..ZERO.  Week 4 he flashed and won rookie of the week..

and Last week was a step back...two small steps forward one step back is what should be expected...This is going to be a three YEAR process...not 3 weeks...

 

All true, and Lamar did get to see the speed of the game from the sidelines, but Zach had an offseason to practice first team reps in the offense that he would be playing in. I think after week one the O line was ok. He probably won’t look great this week, but he needs to show some modicum if improvement going forwards. 

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Just now, Wit said:

All true, and Lamar did get to see the speed of the game from the sidelines, but Zach had an offseason to practice first team reps in the offense that he would be playing in. I think after week one the O line was ok. He probably won’t look great this week, but he needs to show some modicum if improvement going forwards. 

I think this is what you'll see. 

You'll see slight improvements, but he's not going to come out and look like Aaron Rodgers...Or you'll see him have a good game and then stink it up the week after.  Or have 3 good quarters and one awful one.

It's a long process that takes most 3 years to settle into...

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1 hour ago, jgb said:

 

If they're not happy with Sam at $4.6M wait until they are paying him $19M next year!

Picking up that extension was one of the dumbest unforced errors in front office history.

Very true.

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3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

A GM has to not just consider Wilson (or any of the other three that followed him). If one of them - particularly the one projected to go at #2 where we picked - pans out and he stuck with Darnold and drafted a TE (however talented) instead, he’d justifiably be under far more heat. 

They didn’t figure to land a top 3 pick again if Darnold returned (the reason they’d bring Darnold back is they figured he’d be good, not playing like a raw rookie) so their options to upgrade at QB in the next draft become a lot more of an unknown.

  • What if next year’s QB class looks like 2013’s, and instead of Wilson you’ve drafted Geno Smith II (or EJ Manuel II) to take over for Darnold? 
  • What if it’s like other classes that only have 1 -2 worthwhile QBs, where one of them goes #1 to a team desperate for a QB, and the other was a mid-round prospect among 9 other QB prospects? A QB-less team isn’t making that pick.
  • What if 2022 is like however-many other draft classes where you’d have to trade up to #3 to get rewarded with Blake Bortles, or pass on the top 3 QB prospects to bank on Derek Carr lasting to our pick in round 2 (or just as likely, there is no Derek Carr in round 2 after the first 3 underwhelming QBs). 

This FO wouldn’t go another draft without drafting a QB early unless Darnold was a clear top 10-15 QB worthy of franchise tagging for 2022 (or guaranteeing him $20MM in 2021 before he clearly looked even top 25-30). A team (and a GM) can survive without a Pitts more than it can survive without a QB. Wilson may not be the man - we all hope he is - but I can better sympathize with taking a shot on their choice of four QB prospects now, over hoping for the only worthy QB of a future class to be sitting there at our pick (as a prospect deemed worthy of taking at that pick; not using hindsight to say we should’ve taken Prescott in round 1 over Darron Lee, true as that statement may be).

If it wasn’t Darnold’s final contract year, and maybe if he’d had only two disappointing seasons instead of three, then perhaps they take that chance. Regardless, it’s doubtful a team with this many needs would’ve pulled the trigger on a TE at #2 overall (or #3 if they swapped with SF), let alone with a pick-hoarder like Douglas at the helm.

so summary - GMs also have to consider having egg on their face if they pass on Mahomes 2.0

You're economy of words is like the swiss bank... also, i don't think that's the kiss of death in and of itself. Can contribute to a decison to move on from a GM, but not solely.

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1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

I think the difference is the contracts.  Because 2nd and 3rd QB contracts are so cost prohibitive there is a great deal of incentive to have these guys succeed right away.  That is why the changes that untouchable mentions took place, part of the reason they adopted so many college concepts.   In the olden days WFT would never have let Cousins go.  It will be interesting to see if any of the guys that haven't succeeded turn out- Darnold, Trubisky.  Teams have even moved on from guys on 2nd deals it will be interesting to see how that turns out - Tannehill, Goff.

I don’t know. The flip-side is if you go back just over 10 yrs ago the high 1st rounders like Wilson were already making $10MM+/year (when the league’s best still hadn’t eclipsed $20MM/yr). But among those mentioned were QBs (Mahomes the most notable) who didn’t even play right away. 

I think when you’re looking at the last 5 years you lose the opportunity to see a QB’s second go-around (like Tannehill, whom you mention) as you’re only looking at that first stint.

 

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1 hour ago, Paradis said:

so summary - GMs also have to consider having egg on their face if they pass on Mahomes 2.0

You're economy of words is like the swiss bank... also, i don't think that's the kiss of death in and of itself. Can contribute to a decison to move on from a GM, but not solely.

That is not the summary; but lol fine, go with being you. 

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3 hours ago, ZachEY said:

The problem isn't Wilson's "abilities," its his fundamentals.

They are trashbag.  That's why I keep seeing a flag football QB when I watch him.

I think his fundamentals could use some work but not as bad as it appears when you have people who can catch the ball, oline who can provide protection and a running backs who can actually get some yards.  

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Isn't it interesting that when Darnold has a very reliable RB, he plays better? Darnold isn't an awesome QB, but if he has an awesome running game he can lean back on, his passing improves too. This isn't a coincidence. I see the same thing with Baker Mayfield and, to an extent, Ryan Tannehill 

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7 minutes ago, Hex said:

Isn't it interesting that when Darnold has a very reliable RB, he plays better? Darnold isn't an awesome QB, but if he has an awesome running game he can lean back on, his passing improves too. This isn't a coincidence. I see the same thing with Baker Mayfield and, to an extent, Ryan Tannehill 

So true.  With a great running game, Darnold improves to an average QB.  That's his ceiling.  Same as Sanchez.  Occasional good game but never sustainable.

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

I think this is what you'll see. 

You'll see slight improvements, but he's not going to come out and look like Aaron Rodgers...Or you'll see him have a good game and then stink it up the week after.  Or have 3 good quarters and one awful one.

It's a long process that takes most 3 years to settle into...

Yeah, I think if we see some more balance in the beginning of the game and the second half (not just hero ball) things will feel better to fans. 

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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Sorry but that's beyond moving the goalposts. There is no "era" of 5 draft classes. 10 years ago are just as relevant as today's picks. Nothing magical happened between 6-10 years ago that makes QBing so much different for a 2021 prospect.

There's no "track record" at all when you're looking at such a small sample size. It's all statistical noise no matter which result side you're looking at. Those successes and failures are due to the individuals not some huge change in the NFL that began in 2016.

Agree to disagree. I think everything in this post is incorrect.

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The comparisons to Allen's and Lamar's early struggles are encouraging.

Both of their coaches altered their offenses to play to their strengths.  Let's see if our boy geniuses do something to help Zach.

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42 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

That is not the summary; but lol fine, go with being you. 

i'm teasin' for a pleasin'

I hear what you're saying and it's grounded in sound managerial science. Those talking points are ones had a the round the table I'm sure...

but there is also a very valid case/argument for the other direction I spoke of. The nuances and undulations of an NFL team over the course of 12 months just isn't as static and obvious as you're stating. Things never go as predictably as it would be needed to make your musings to be the only path/consideration. 

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35 minutes ago, Paradis said:

i'm teasin' for a pleasin'

I hear what you're saying and it's grounded in sound managerial science. Those talking points are ones had a the round the table I'm sure...

but there is also a very valid case/argument for the other direction I spoke of. The nuances and undulations of an NFL team over the course of 12 months just isn't as static and obvious as you're stating. Things never go as predictably as it would be needed to make your musings to be the only path/consideration. 

They were looking at their choice of 4 highly-rated QB prospects in 2021, weighed against not even knowing what the choices will be at their pick in 2022 (if Darnold didn't do a 180 on his career). As much as anything it's about picking one's own poison and, even if that choice is incorrect, to get it out of the way earlier since that gives the GM a better chance for another swing at the plate before he's terminated.

If he waits until 2022, then on top of that sits the QB behind a veteran - if they weren't picking high enough they'd have to have a credible stopgap veteran in place before the draft - and then if the 2022 draftee flops (in 2023), then said GM may get fired before he gets another opportunity; therefore he has to go 1 for 1 in drafting QBs (or has to get super lucky on his next James Morgan selection), and further has to take the best one that other teams left for him.

The past choice of Adams over Mahomes/Watson is only additive.

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4 hours ago, jgb said:

Bud, we are Jets fans. We are already walking around on the tops of the clouds.

and i thought it was just some pretty thick fog - man_walking_on_clouds_by_amormeijer-daxd

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8 hours ago, JiFapono said:

Not really sure what this has to do with my post but he was a mess in college and that's why he's currently the worst QB in he NFL.  Maybe he turns it around but the deck is stacked against him.  It's never happened before but maybe he can, who knows, to early to tell.  And really dont want to rehash this, again, but I strongly disagree on the bold.  It wasnt excellent, it was frightening.  It was littered with all the red flags that are on full display.  Doesnt mean he cant overcome it but the kid was a mess in college and it's carried over into the NFL.  I'm just hoping someone on the staff is actually teaching him how to play the position. 

 

It's so easy to poke holes in a 1-4 team, but it's quite a bit harder to come up with the fix.  So you think you know and knew that Wilson would fail.  So if you're such the QB guru, who should the Jets have drafted in 2022 if they kept Darnold and drafted other positions in 2021?  Who meets your standards based on your review of the college games so far?  What QBs coming out in 2022 are not going to be franchise QBs?  Let's see how you do in predicting NFL success from your basement on the internet.   Shocking that you are not working in the personnel office of an NFL team with your abilities. 

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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

They were looking at their choice of 4 highly-rated QB prospects in 2021, weighed against not even knowing what the choices will be at their pick in 2022 (if Darnold didn't do a 180 on his career). As much as anything it's about picking one's own poison and, even if that choice is incorrect, to get it out of the way earlier since that gives the GM a better chance for another swing at the plate before he's terminated.

If he waits until 2022, then on top of that sits the QB behind a veteran - if they weren't picking high enough they'd have to have a credible stopgap veteran in place before the draft - and then if the 2022 draftee flops (in 2023), then said GM may get fired before he gets another opportunity; therefore he has to go 1 for 1 in drafting QBs (or has to get super lucky on his next James Morgan selection), and further has to take the best one that other teams left for him.

The past choice of Adams over Mahomes/Watson is only additive.

i feel like you missed my point entirely and just doubled down on why your assessment is accurate. I was speaking to broader strategy and dispelling the myth that any one practice/approach is universally smarter. 

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6 hours ago, HighPitch said:

He wants to be a SAR1. He makes solid statements that you cant argue with so much but his intention is to rile you up.

It like going to your friends house and seeing their kids report card. You say "wow he scored in the lowest percentile. 1% in reading. Your child is a bad reader. Statistically he couldnt be a worse reader"

And then wondering why you never get invited to dinner anymore

 

Couldnt be further from the truth but I like that you think this much about it me, it's huge turn on.

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4 hours ago, dcJet said:

The comparisons to Allen's and Lamar's early struggles are encouraging.

Both of their coaches altered their offenses to play to their strengths.  Let's see if our boy geniuses do something to help Zach.

LaFleur? Adjust his script to suit Zach Wilson's strengths?  I doubt it.  We got ourselves a big problem with this guy.  This is not a good situation for Wilson at all.  

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6 hours ago, HighPitch said:

and to tack on to this: then, you ask as to why you dont get invited anymore by saying, "I was just reading the report card. It said that your child was the worst reader. Because theres no such thing as 0 percentile, so he is as bad as bad can be. I didnt say anything bad. Just stating fact that your child is illiterate. It's based on his report card, which I read..."

That must have been very upsetting and painful for you and your parents when that idiot said those things!

.

.:mrgreen:

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On 10/18/2021 at 9:39 AM, Paradis said:

I was much more on the fence than some of you about pulling the plug on Darnold, for reasons we've discussed 10 to the 100th power times here.... I was more - At least give it a year under Rob, trade back, grab Pitts etc etc stock the cupboards blah blah..

But reading more and more of this has helped put Sam and the whole thing firmly in the rear view mirror --

 

This is not an excuse for SAM.... If you took the time to do some research, you would know that the Owner influenced this change.  During the Game his former WR Smith and he were talking about getting away form the run so often in the last few games where it was successful and becoming pass happy.  Its on their forum...

 Also, the OPC is predicable and has been all season where the same plays are use from week to week and to boot the OC admitted he doesn't make any in game adjustments - his comment was, "its all about execution," essentially throwing his players under even n though opposing DC have figured out how he tries to attack them. 

Finally, their D just game up - get this - 1000+ yards of O in the last two games they lost... that right 1000 yards... 

to top it off, theie OL is as bad if not worse then ours was last year 

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1 hour ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

It's so easy to poke holes in a 1-4 team, but it's quite a bit harder to come up with the fix.  So you think you know and knew that Wilson would fail.  So if you're such the QB guru, who should the Jets have drafted in 2022 if they kept Darnold and drafted other positions in 2021?  Who meets your standards based on your review of the college games so far?  What QBs coming out in 2022 are not going to be franchise QBs?  Let's see how you do in predicting NFL success from your basement on the internet.   Shocking that you are not working in the personnel office of an NFL team with your abilities. 

My receipts are out there, you can go find them and what you'll find is, I'm elite at this sh*t.  I was the same guy fighting the entire board on draft Watson or Mahomes while everyone wanted us to Suck for Sam as well.  It gets old when you're constantly challenged and told you dont know anything about the game (that's my favorite) simply because I have a different opinion than the talking head idiots who are constantly wrong.  That said, the way this board acted because I simply went against the mainstream, was hurtful.  I have feeling and I dont want to be hurt again, so JN will never get my draft takes again, they dont deserve my greatness and therefore will not answer you questions.

Case in point; this entire post was based on me "poking holes in a 1-4 team" but I'm the guy who has said 100 times, 100 different ways, that it is way to early to know sh*t about sh*t.  There is way to much Football left to make any predictions about anyone.  If Zach Wilson is the worst QB in the league at the end of the season, history says we have problems.  If not, great!  Lets go and give the kid every ******* asset we can to make him better; coaching, weapons, avocadoHGHicecream, whatever it takes.

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6 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

My receipts are out there, you can go find them and what you'll find is, I'm elite at this sh*t.  I was the same guy fighting the entire board on draft Watson or Mahomes while everyone wanted us to Suck for Sam as well.  It gets old when you're constantly challenged and told you dont know anything about the game (that's my favorite) simply because I have a different opinion than the talking head idiots who are constantly wrong.  That said, the way this board acted because I simply went against the mainstream, was hurtful.  I have feeling and I dont want to be hurt again, so JN will never get my draft takes again, they dont deserve my greatness and therefore will not answer you questions.

Case in point; this entire post was based on me "poking holes in a 1-4 team" but I'm the guy who has said 100 times, 100 different ways, that it is way to early to know sh*t about sh*t.  There is way to much Football left to make any predictions about anyone.  If Zach Wilson is the worst QB in the league at the end of the season, history says we have problems.  If not, great!  Lets go and give the kid every ******* asset we can to make him better; coaching, weapons, avocadoHGHicecream, whatever it takes.

Sign Jameis Winston amirite?

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59 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Sign Jameis Winston amirite?

100%  Look at him this season, taking care of the ball, eating W's.  He has the highest pass to TD % in the NFL.  He would be the perfect bridge gap/back-up plan. 

It's ridiculous that I just type this sh*t on the interwebz for dweebs to read while guys like Mike Maccagnan gets paid millions to piss himself. 

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