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LaFleur said that he "looked at himself hard" while trying to figure out why it's not working


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1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

24 seems very excessive.  I actually do not like any scripted plays though that seems to be a norm.

It just feels excessive as it takes until the 3rd quarter to get through them.

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24 plays, that's like all the jets offensive plays for a game  

Looking forward to the breathless over reactions to this comment.

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17 minutes ago, bostonmajet said:

It just feels excessive as it takes until the 3rd quarter to get through them.

It’s that by then the jets are losing by double digits and have to abandon the run and go into hurry up mode and that’s when wilson is at his best.  The plodding offense we see in the first quarter with too many runs on first and second downs are not only predictable but put wilson into too many 3rd and long situations where statistically they’re going to go 3 and out and punt.

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1 hour ago, johnnysd said:

I have said this before but Bill Polian has stated that even in a "establish the run offense" that "balance" means you are 60/40 pass on first downs. You cannot establish the run against a stacked box unless you have an elite RB and elite OL neither of which the Jets actually have.

Yep.  Circa 2009-2010 the Jets had Thomas Jones & Leon behind Brick, Faneca, Mangold, Moore, Woody.  You can run against any defense with that lot.

Now the Jets would have a hard time running against a Div III college defense. 

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1 hour ago, All Gas, No Gase said:

Per JetsXFactor analysis, the Jets are running on 70% of the plays in the 1st quarter.

I understand LaFleur’s scheme is based on establishing the run. However, if you run the ball 70% of the time and don’t establish the run, then the defense is just going to focus on containing ZW and that is not going to help his development.

Also, although the Oline’s pass pro has improved, its run blocking still seems weak. I’m not sure the Jets even have the personnel to establish the run game. Maybe that will change when Becton returns.

Right now the Jets telegraph to other teams that we are going to run the ball and when that doesn’t work, we’ll pass more. Hopefully, LaFleur mixes it up to keep defenses off balance. 

Interesting.  This data says it's 55%.  Are they saying completions vs. attempts because that's not a real stat then.

My god, look at Zach's numbers in the 1st.  yikes

Rushing Passing  
Quarter #Pl ToGo Yds Att Yds Y/A TD 1D Cmp Att Cmp% Yds Y/A TD Int Sk 1D Rate ANY/A  
1st Qtr 42 8.67 1.88 22 68 3.1 0 4 5 18 27.8 34 1.9 0 2 2 1 .0 -2.8 All Jets plays in 1st Qtr
2nd Qtr 83 8.02 4.11 32 118 3.7 1 6 25 45 55.6 258 5.7 0 4 6 14 35.2 1.5 All Jets plays in 2nd Qtr
3rd Qtr 71 8.87 4.72 30 96 3.2 1 8 27 39 69.2 258 6.6 1 1 2 8 85.2 5.7 All Jets plays in 3rd Qtr
4th Qtr 85 8.84 5.65 15 74 4.9 1 5 37 62 59.7 510 8.2 3 2 8 21 88.8 6.9 All Jets plays in 4th Qtr
OT 12 6.67 5.92 5 14 2.8 0 1 4 7 57.1 57 8.1 0 0 0 2 83.6 8.1 All Jets plays in OT
1st Half 125 8.24 3.36 54 186 3.4 1 10 30 63 47.6 292 4.6 0 6 8 15 21.5 .3 All Jets plays in 1st Half
2nd Half 156 8.85 5.22 45 170 3.8 2 13 64 101 63.4 768 7.6 4 3 10 29 87.4 6.4 All Jets plays in 2nd Half

 

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2 hours ago, oatmeal said:

Salute to him for looking in the mirror but many of us already are looking at him.

Some of his earlier quotes about execution were concerning.   

He's new as an OC.  That quote sounds like he is willing to question himself which is healthy.

We never to get the unfiltered truth so time will tell. 

 

 

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what is it with these coaches.  Your scheme based on the personnel is not working as designed.  Get it!  Adjust the scheme to what fits with the skill set of your players... it is that simple. 

Carolina is going through the same dam thing with their OC...  Both of these guys seem to think that better execution will fix everything - and to an extent it will but you need the horses - yet fail to recognize the limitations of their players.  

If I made the mistake of hiring either of these guys I would have set the expectations up front, i..e, I want to be a quick passing team that uses PA for longer chunk plays, or I want to be a physical run team, etc.  When they failed to deliver, I would have pulled them aside and clearly stated that what they are doing is not working and they need to adjust... if they did not, I would fire them.  This is how I managed 300mm business... no BS, no excuses, perform of get out! 

What we have with both teams is NO O identity, period, and that falls squarely on the HC who should have defined it and seems  to have deferred it to their OCs... 

So maybe it not just our OC or theirs it maybe a problem with the HC.... 

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

I do think this idea that WR's are open and ZW isn't seeing them is misleading.  Yes, ZW has missed guys for sure, but there are more times than not when no ones is open or he's under pressure before the play can develop. 

With that said, there is enough of a window to move the ball through the air if ZW was playing better (both accuracy and vision) but the receivers need to catch the ball and the OL needs to protect better and get some type of push in the running game.

IMO, you might be able to question ML for the team not playing well or being unprepared.  

But I really don't think it's his scheme or play calling.  The team isn't executing on any level in the offense.  It's not the play calling, it's the players.

I watched the every throw videos the other day.  

Your post doesn't fit lots of the naratives starting to form on JN but it does match what I saw.  

He needs to fix the short throws but I was really impressed how he is seeing what's going on.  It was crazy how often he was dropping back with everyone covered and pressure coming.   It's not an easy job to be the Jets QB this season, but they are all getting better.  d

Wilson does really well evading and keeping his eyes down field.  Also, I think the "he needs to step up into the pocket crowd" isn't noticing how quickly the interior DLine sheds Jet blocks and blows through.  When it goes bad, there isn't much warning.   He might be getting coached not to climb those pockets.

Also, time to embrace reality.  For this seasons team and lineup to work, it's probably going to need to be pass first.   Revist this when Becton gets back.  

 

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13 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Interesting.  This data says it's 55%.  Are they saying completions vs. attempts because that's not a real stat then.

My god, look at Zach's numbers in the 1st.  yikes

Rushing Passing  
Quarter #Pl ToGo Yds Att Yds Y/A TD 1D Cmp Att Cmp% Yds Y/A TD Int Sk 1D Rate ANY/A  
1st Qtr 42 8.67 1.88 22 68 3.1 0 4 5 18 27.8 34 1.9 0 2 2 1 .0 -2.8 All Jets plays in 1st Qtr
2nd Qtr 83 8.02 4.11 32 118 3.7 1 6 25 45 55.6 258 5.7 0 4 6 14 35.2 1.5 All Jets plays in 2nd Qtr
3rd Qtr 71 8.87 4.72 30 96 3.2 1 8 27 39 69.2 258 6.6 1 1 2 8 85.2 5.7 All Jets plays in 3rd Qtr
4th Qtr 85 8.84 5.65 15 74 4.9 1 5 37 62 59.7 510 8.2 3 2 8 21 88.8 6.9 All Jets plays in 4th Qtr
OT 12 6.67 5.92 5 14 2.8 0 1 4 7 57.1 57 8.1 0 0 0 2 83.6 8.1 All Jets plays in OT
1st Half 125 8.24 3.36 54 186 3.4 1 10 30 63 47.6 292 4.6 0 6 8 15 21.5 .3 All Jets plays in 1st Half
2nd Half 156 8.85 5.22 45 170 3.8 2 13 64 101 63.4 768 7.6 4 3 10 29 87.4 6.4 All Jets plays in 2nd Half

 

He’s averaging only ONE completion in the first quarter this season?  Am I correct in how I am reading this?  5 total completions in 5 games?  

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11 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Interesting.  This data says it's 55%.  Are they saying completions vs. attempts because that's not a real stat then.

My god, look at Zach's numbers in the 1st.  yikes

Rushing Passing  
Quarter #Pl ToGo Yds Att Yds Y/A TD 1D Cmp Att Cmp% Yds Y/A TD Int Sk 1D Rate ANY/A  
1st Qtr 42 8.67 1.88 22 68 3.1 0 4 5 18 27.8 34 1.9 0 2 2 1 .0 -2.8 All Jets plays in 1st Qtr
2nd Qtr 83 8.02 4.11 32 118 3.7 1 6 25 45 55.6 258 5.7 0 4 6 14 35.2 1.5 All Jets plays in 2nd Qtr
3rd Qtr 71 8.87 4.72 30 96 3.2 1 8 27 39 69.2 258 6.6 1 1 2 8 85.2 5.7 All Jets plays in 3rd Qtr
4th Qtr 85 8.84 5.65 15 74 4.9 1 5 37 62 59.7 510 8.2 3 2 8 21 88.8 6.9 All Jets plays in 4th Qtr
OT 12 6.67 5.92 5 14 2.8 0 1 4 7 57.1 57 8.1 0 0 0 2 83.6 8.1 All Jets plays in OT
1st Half 125 8.24 3.36 54 186 3.4 1 10 30 63 47.6 292 4.6 0 6 8 15 21.5 .3 All Jets plays in 1st Half
2nd Half 156 8.85 5.22 45 170 3.8 2 13 64 101 63.4 768 7.6 4 3 10 29 87.4 6.4 All Jets plays in 2nd Half

 

Maybe we should bench him for the first half every week?

Second half numbers aren't stellar either. Still, if those numbers were doubled, for a rookie, there wouldn't be 1/10 the Jets fans near the ledge. 

So we should just play him in the 2nd half.

#tehscienceandstuff

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16 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Interesting.  This data says it's 55%.  Are they saying completions vs. attempts because that's not a real stat then.

My god, look at Zach's numbers in the 1st.  yikes

Rushing Passing  
Quarter #Pl ToGo Yds Att Yds Y/A TD 1D Cmp Att Cmp% Yds Y/A TD Int Sk 1D Rate ANY/A  
1st Qtr 42 8.67 1.88 22 68 3.1 0 4 5 18 27.8 34 1.9 0 2 2 1 .0 -2.8 All Jets plays in 1st Qtr
2nd Qtr 83 8.02 4.11 32 118 3.7 1 6 25 45 55.6 258 5.7 0 4 6 14 35.2 1.5 All Jets plays in 2nd Qtr
3rd Qtr 71 8.87 4.72 30 96 3.2 1 8 27 39 69.2 258 6.6 1 1 2 8 85.2 5.7 All Jets plays in 3rd Qtr
4th Qtr 85 8.84 5.65 15 74 4.9 1 5 37 62 59.7 510 8.2 3 2 8 21 88.8 6.9 All Jets plays in 4th Qtr
OT 12 6.67 5.92 5 14 2.8 0 1 4 7 57.1 57 8.1 0 0 0 2 83.6 8.1 All Jets plays in OT
1st Half 125 8.24 3.36 54 186 3.4 1 10 30 63 47.6 292 4.6 0 6 8 15 21.5 .3 All Jets plays in 1st Half
2nd Half 156 8.85 5.22 45 170 3.8 2 13 64 101 63.4 768 7.6 4 3 10 29 87.4 6.4 All Jets plays in 2nd Half

 

My bad! A bit of an older guy’s brain fart. It’s 70% of 1st down plays in the first quarter. Still too predictable. 
https://jetsxfactor.com/2021/10/16/ny-jets-10-offensive-adjustments/

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32 minutes ago, Embrace the Suck said:

Scripted plays are for preseason at best. Never liked the practice as I doubt it's effectiveness. You can watch how the other guys on D react without a scripted play. Unless LaFleur gets better real soon he has nepotism written all over him.

Pretty sure every team in the NFL scripts the first plays on offense.

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19 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Interesting.  This data says it's 55%.  Are they saying completions vs. attempts because that's not a real stat then.

My god, look at Zach's numbers in the 1st.  yikes

Rushing Passing  
Quarter #Pl ToGo Yds Att Yds Y/A TD 1D Cmp Att Cmp% Yds Y/A TD Int Sk 1D Rate ANY/A  
1st Qtr 42 8.67 1.88 22 68 3.1 0 4 5 18 27.8 34 1.9 0 2 2 1 .0 -2.8 All Jets plays in 1st Qtr
2nd Qtr 83 8.02 4.11 32 118 3.7 1 6 25 45 55.6 258 5.7 0 4 6 14 35.2 1.5 All Jets plays in 2nd Qtr
3rd Qtr 71 8.87 4.72 30 96 3.2 1 8 27 39 69.2 258 6.6 1 1 2 8 85.2 5.7 All Jets plays in 3rd Qtr
4th Qtr 85 8.84 5.65 15 74 4.9 1 5 37 62 59.7 510 8.2 3 2 8 21 88.8 6.9 All Jets plays in 4th Qtr
OT 12 6.67 5.92 5 14 2.8 0 1 4 7 57.1 57 8.1 0 0 0 2 83.6 8.1 All Jets plays in OT
1st Half 125 8.24 3.36 54 186 3.4 1 10 30 63 47.6 292 4.6 0 6 8 15 21.5 .3 All Jets plays in 1st Half
2nd Half 156 8.85 5.22 45 170 3.8 2 13 64 101 63.4 768 7.6 4 3 10 29 87.4 6.4 All Jets plays in 2nd Half

 

The huge improvement in the 2nd half of the game is encouraging. This could just be a young kid too hyped up for the game and not used to the speed of the NFL until he gets settled in which would obviously improve w/experience. Tough to watch so far.

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43 minutes ago, Embrace the Suck said:

Scripted plays are for preseason at best. Never liked the practice as I doubt it's effectiveness. You can watch how the other guys on D react without a scripted play. Unless LaFleur gets better real soon he has nepotism written all over him.

Now we are doubting Bill Walsh? 

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FWIW, 24 plays seems like a lot, but I don't think it is a big deal.  He said it can change quickly and I think that means they aren't married to the script.  They also have a ton of option routes anyway.  I think Walsh did 15 plays.  There are a bunch of purposes for scripting.  Like Tony Richardson in motion, it can help you diagnose how a D is going to play.  THat can pay dividends later.  It should also give the players an emphasis in practice.

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Our offense and defense have been making each other worse in the first half imo. A bad feedback system

The O is obviously running a script that doesn't work to our strengths and being poorly executed with Wilson missing throws, and our guys dropping throws as well. Having a mediocre run game also hurts any "establish the run" philosophy. With this, our defense is put on the field more often and is getting gassed.

The D is solid, but plays the "bend don't break" philosophy which leads to grueling deficits in time of possession regardless of them stopping the opposing team. So even though the offense is atrocious to start the game, the D isn't exactly giving them many opportunities and time to gain momentum when every opposing drive is a 5 min, 10 play slog.

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20 minutes ago, Action Zachtion said:

I watched the every throw videos the other day.  

Your post doesn't fit lots of the naratives starting to form on JN but it does match what I saw.  

He needs to fix the short throws but I was really impressed how he is seeing what's going on.  It was crazy how often he was dropping back with everyone covered and pressure coming.   It's not an easy job to be the Jets QB this season, but they are all getting better.  d

Wilson does really well evading and keeping his eyes down field.  Also, I think the "he needs to step up into the pocket crowd" isn't noticing how quickly the interior DLine sheds Jet blocks and blows through.  When it goes bad, there isn't much warning.   He might be getting coached not to climb those pockets.

Also, time to embrace reality.  For this seasons team and lineup to work, it's probably going to need to be pass first.   Revist this when Becton gets back.  

 

I agree completely. 

Yes, but under the circumstances he's seeing the field far be better most realize.

Like you said, he does have to fix the short throws (I am, although, far less worried about this as it wasn't EVER an issue with him before - so it's just a matter of clearing his head)

And yes, climbing the pocket is a nice catch phrase but GVR and McGovern aren't doing a very good job...AVT is really starting to play well, but still a work in progress.

Go and look at week 1 - anyone - and you'll ZW actually climbing the pocket a lot - and he almost got himself killed...Since then he's done much less of it...He either decided not to let himself get killed or he was told not to, at least until we can replace GVR. Either way I can't blame him.

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As expected, the first 24 comes from Kyle Shanahan.

Quote

o, but if you’re doing it all the time all week for most of your life you get better at it. I’d just rather a quarterback worry about all the hard stuff.”

 

Do you script the first 15 or anything like that?

“Yeah, I’ve always scripted, I usually try to give an opening 24. But, I don’t think ever in my life have I gone one through 24. You just try to give guys an idea of what the game plan is, where you plan on going with it. It’s mainly more so players can feel comfortable with what the play caller’s thinking so they can prepare. I always start out with the first play, and I usually go with the second play too. But, very quickly when you see what you’re getting on defense, how they’re playing, formations, how they’re playing personnel groupings, after a series we might’ve just finished plays one through five but I’ll tell the coaches, ‘Hey we’re skipping to 19. They’re playing this differently and we want to get in this personnel group, we’ll go there.’ Then I might come back later to play seven. It just gives players an idea of how to prepare, kind of what you’re thinking so they don’t have to read your mind. But, by no means are we just going to stick with it and go, it’s always set on what we’re going against.”

https://www.ninersnation.com/2017/8/4/16094148/kyle-shanahan-transcript-49ers-rougher-practices-play-scripting

THe traditional number (Walsh/Reid) is 15.  His brother says he "usually goes about 20." 

 

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21 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

The huge improvement in the 2nd half of the game is encouraging. This could just be a young kid too hyped up for the game and not used to the speed of the NFL until he gets settled in which would obviously improve w/experience. Tough to watch so far.

Huge?  I dont know about that and the stats are very misleading.  Tons of garbage time stats.  Literally half his production has come in the 4th quarter and outside of the Tenn. game, they havent been competitive in a single game this year in the 4th quarter.

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How much of this is self-reflection and how much of this is Saleh getting on him for sticking to a script for that many plays? I'm hoping that it's a combination of both. 

Two thoughts in one here.

Scripting plays makes assumptions that your OL is going to block, your receivers are running the correct routes, and that the QB delivers a catchable pass. The best script or play call in the universe is not going to mean diddly poo if the OL is a sieve, receivers aren't getting separation, and the QB is not making the correct read. Once again, this comes down to the growing pains of too many new pieces all learning at the same time. 

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1 minute ago, JiFapono said:

Huge?  I dont know about that and the stats are very misleading.  Tons of garbage time stats.  Literally half his production has come in the 4th quarter and outside of the Tenn. game, they havent been competitive in a single game this year in the 4th quarter.

Compared to the first half? Yes, huge.

The Panthers and Falcons game were both 1 score games in the 4th quarter.

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2 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Compared to the first half? Yes, huge.

The Panthers and Falcons game were both 1 score games in the 4th quarter.

Right, but what I'm saying is it only looks huge because of garbage time in the 4th quarter.

And both the Falcons and Carolina were 2 scores games.  The Jets brought it within 1 score because they scored late in quarter when the game was over.

 

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1 hour ago, munchmemory said:

But by definition, turgidity would be more representative of a "hard look", no? 

Which is why I recommended a more honest, "soft look".

Keep up, bud.

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Just now, JiFapono said:

Right, but what I'm saying is it only looks huge because of garbage time in the 4th quarter.

And both the Falcons and Carolina were 2 scores games.  The Jets brought it within 1 score because they scored late in quarter when the game was over.

 

This is the NFL. A 1 score game isn't "over" until the winning team takes a knee.

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For those that are saying "scripted" does not mean that the plays are run in a particular order, I say Huh? 

What else can "scripted" mean in the context of a football offense? If you have 24 plays to run and you intend to run them willy nilly in any old order, that is called a "game plan", rather than a "script".  

As I understand it, plays are scripted to set things up. There is a logic to the order in which the plays are run. Hence the idea of calling it a "script", rather than a "game plan". 

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in retrospect, the bye week came at a good time. if this was like week 11 or 12, the team could have spiraled even more. i am really hopeful that they come out rested, better prepared and ready to go.

 

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21 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

How much of this is self-reflection and how much of this is Saleh getting on him for sticking to a script for that many plays? I'm hoping that it's a combination of both. 

Two thoughts in one here.

Scripting plays makes assumptions that your OL is going to block, your receivers are running the correct routes, and that the QB delivers a catchable pass. The best script or play call in the universe is not going to mean diddly poo if the OL is a sieve, receivers aren't getting separation, and the QB is not making the correct read. Once again, this comes down to the growing pains of too many new pieces all learning at the same time. 

The script is 24 plays.  I'm pretty sure that they aren't "on script" for all 24.  Like ever.

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52 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Pretty sure every team in the NFL scripts the first plays on offense.

I don't doubt it. I imagine the idea is to see how the other team intends to play you, see what is working, and use that data as a baseline during the game (except the D change change its approach as well making that script data useless). Problem is if sh*t ain't working you need to see that faster than two+ quarters later, or whenever you get through your script (an excuse for early failure), and make immediate changes. This isn't rocket science despite people trying to make it out to be for whatever reason (generally media driven hype).

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Most disciples of that system -- LaFleur’s tie is via Shanahan and his father, Mike, who worked for the 49ers in the early 1990s -- script plays in one form or another, and it’s usually 15 plays.

LaFleur takes it even further.

“I usually go about 20 and a lot of times you can’t even get all the way through that script in the first half,” LaFleur said in an interview this summer. “Those are, to me, more of the must-calls throughout the game. How many 10-play drives are there in this league? Typically if there are, there are third downs in there and you’ve got red zone, so you’re not necessarily running those plays in sequence.”

https://www.espn.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/47643/the-first-20-how-matt-lafleur-aaron-rodgers-create-packers-game-plan

Matt LaFleur

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