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LaFleur said that he "looked at himself hard" while trying to figure out why it's not working


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45 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

2 scores.  2.  11 pts both games 

The Jets made it a 1 score game with 2 minutes left against Carolina. I don't remember how many timeouts they had left, and it is a big ask for the defense, but a quick TO or 3 and out and those "garbage time stats" are suddenly part of a potential epic comeback.

It obviously wasn't, but my point was that line between garbage time and comeback win was quite thin in those two games, whereas you make it sound like there wasn't much point in them even playing anymore.

Same with Atlanta; 1 score game with 2 minutes left.

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24 plays, that's like all the jets offensive plays for a game  

Looking forward to the breathless over reactions to this comment.

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Always found scripting plays weird, like do the play calls not adjust for different yardage to get first downs? As in the same play call for 2nd and 7 and 3rd and 1 if play #10 is what # it is? I am very possibly misunderstanding something because that does not make much sense to me 

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1 minute ago, Spoot-Face said:

The Jets made it a 1 score game with 2 minutes left against Carolina. I don't remember how many timeouts they had left, and it is a big ask for the defense, but a quick TO or 3 and out and those "garbage time stats" are suddenly part of a potential epic comeback.

It obviously wasn't, but my point was that line between garbage time and comeback win was quite thin in those two games, whereas you make it sound like there wasn't much point in them even playing anymore.

Same with Atlanta; 1 score game with 2 minutes left.

I'm not making it seem that way, you are, I'm saying the Defense plays different with a 2 scores lead.  I've said 10 times now.  lol  And yes, he did have garbage time vs. Atl.  He threw the ball 11 straight times to lead the team to a FG with 17 seconds left in a 10 point game.

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18 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

I didn’t say they were.  I said you see a different defense when they’re protecting a 2 score lead.  That’s all.  

This is the NFL?  NO WAY!!!

They Jets were down 2 scores in both games, they made it a 1 score game with a late 4th quarter TD's.  They were not in these games.  They were dominated from go. 

You actually did say that, I’m not making it up. I understand your point but you stated they were not in these games and my point is that down 3 with 6:55 to go is still in the game. I guess we can agree to disagree.

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Just now, Joejet said:

 

This is the NFL?  NO WAY!!!

They Jets were down 2 scores in both games, they made it a 1 score game with a late 4th quarter TD's.  They were not in these games.  They were dominated from go. 

You actually did say that, I’m not making it up. I understand your point but you stated they were not in these games and my point is that down 3 with 6:55 to go is still in the game. I guess we can agree to disagree.

Fine, they were still in the game until they were then down 10 points on the very next possession and then Zach threw 11 times straight for a FG.  lol  So back to my original point, his 4th quarter stats are misleading.

That was fun! 

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24 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

I'm not making it seem that way, you are, I'm saying the Defense plays different with a 2 scores lead.  I've said 10 times now.  lol  And yes, he did have garbage time vs. Atl.  He threw the ball 11 straight times to lead the team to a FG with 17 seconds left in a 10 point game.

Okay, my bad, I read the summary for the Atlanta game wrong, it wasn't as close as the Carolina game. 10 point game with 2 minutes left.

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2 hours ago, tfine said:

Why is it that we can never get a top notch OC? We always go with these guys that learn on the job. Fire Lefleur let’s get Brad Childress or Norv Turner!!!


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there are no top notch guys.

i bet you like many others wanted Joe Brady before the season started. go look and see how much the Carolina fans think of him.

i swear if you closed your eyes and someone read it to you , you would think they were talking about Lafluer.

there are no good OCs.. its the players. Wilson stops throwing at feet and LaFluer will look great. 

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16 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

I do think this idea that WR's are open and ZW isn't seeing them is misleading.  Yes, ZW has missed guys for sure, but there are more times than not when no ones is open or he's under pressure before the play can develop. 

With that said, there is enough of a window to move the ball through the air if ZW was playing better (both accuracy and vision) but the receivers need to catch the ball and the OL needs to protect better and get some type of push in the running game.

IMO, you might be able to question ML for the team not playing well or being unprepared.  

But I really don't think it's his scheme or play calling.  The team isn't executing on any level in the offense.  It's not the play calling, it's the players.

i can showing a player being open is misleading but at the same time many of those missed open throws were open enough to get some good yardage.  i think wilson needs to learn this.  i think the first qtr play count in the atlanta game was something like 40-6.  the defense was on the field for what was close to a full half in the first quarter.  and that's something that wilson needs to understand.  lafleur isn't totally out of the spotlight here either.  he may be calling plays that get receivers open but it's also about what receivers are being called on like when he puts moore on the outside.

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17 hours ago, oatmeal said:

Salute to him for looking in the mirror but many of us already are looking at him.

He should be walking around with a pocket mirror and pull it out after every play and give himself a good stare. 

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He looked in the mirror and there was no one looking back.  He was hungry.  He thought about what team would be his next victim?  He knew his work was done here.  The NY Jets we’re dead.  He had sucked the blood out of them and left a lifeless corpse lying on the floor.  

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11 hours ago, JiFapono said:

If you think I'm sitting here saying, they're not trying, you need to look at your perspective.

I'm not talking about the Titans.  That is the outlier.  

The Jets were down 17-27 when Zach threw the ball on every single down on the last meaningful drive of the game. 

Look, I'm not saying Zach doesnt deserve credit for completing passes and doing the things you need to in the 4th quarter of games they were really never in, I'm just saying, the defense treats you a little different and I think it's very convenient to think the light just suddenly went off for the offense.  Cause and effect seems more likely considering the trend.

And again, there we also some garbage times drives in the blow outs.  So I dont think it's cynical to you know, use logic. 

I agree with this...

There's certainly some softer zones - which might be allowing them to get into a rhythm. But it does seem to like he's simply throwing the ball better too, cleaner, more accurate, more confident......

The offense just looks more in sync when they get something going (like any other offense) but they just haven't been able to execute early.

I think the early problems areI more on the Jets than on the defense.  

In other words, I believe if they can find a way to get a few early first downs (so sad that has to be said) you might see a completely different offense.  Whatever success they've had in the second half is more to do with the Jets than the defense - is all I'm trying to say.

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18 hours ago, SOJ said:

what is it with these coaches.  Your scheme based on the personnel is not working as designed.  Get it!  Adjust the scheme to what fits with the skill set of your players... it is that simple. 

Hit the nail on the head.... I was going to say the same thing. Self reflection aside, he needs to know his personnel and adjust his play calling to who is on the field. If the zone blocking isn't working, then switch it up. I'm not saying that he shouldn't implement that type of scheme, but until you have the personnel to make it work at least 85-90 percent of the time, then work on something else. I think the best coaches are those who can coach to the talent, not someone trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Open up the formations, work on 3 step drop backs and getting the ball out of Wilson's hand quicker. I think that will open the running game as well.

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I’m still baffled that Zach has only completed 5 total passes in the 5 first quarters he has played.  He’s averaging one completion in the 1st quarter.  There are QBs who get 5 completions on one drive in the first quarter. 

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1 minute ago, sec101row23 said:

I’m still baffled that Zach has only completed 5 total passes in the 5 first quarters he has played.  He’s averaging one completion in the 1st quarter.  There are QBs who get 5 completions on one drive in the first quarter. 

In his defense, the defense usually gives up 10 minute scoring drives to open the game and when he finally gets the ball they run it twice for 2 yards and if he doesn't complete a 3rd and 6 they punt and he doesn't see the ball again until the 2nd quarter. 

Wilson and the offense need to get better but the defense has been atrocious all year. It's a fallacy that this defense has played well or even average. They just don't look as bad because the focus is on the offense. If the Jets offense started scoring at a high rate the defense would be exposed.  

It would also be nice for the defense to get a 3 and out (not sure I remember the last time that happened) and get Wilson the ball right back and in good field position. I would bet the Jets offense has a bottom 5 starting field position average in the NFL.

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10 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

I’m still baffled that Zach has only completed 5 total passes in the 5 first quarters he has played.  He’s averaging one completion in the 1st quarter.  There are QBs who get 5 completions on one drive in the first quarter. 

I think Kerley and Brad Smith beat those numbers.😁

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18 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

For those that are saying "scripted" does not mean that the plays are run in a particular order, I say Huh? 

What else can "scripted" mean in the context of a football offense? If you have 24 plays to run and you intend to run them willy nilly in any old order, that is called a "game plan", rather than a "script".  

As I understand it, plays are scripted to set things up. There is a logic to the order in which the plays are run. Hence the idea of calling it a "script", rather than a "game plan". 

I was thinking the exact same thing. Isn’t “scripting 24 plays but putting them in a different order based on what the defense is giving” just called “playing football?”

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1 minute ago, the Claw said:

I was thinking the exact same thing. Isn’t “scripting 24 plays but putting them in a different order based on what the defense is giving” just called “playing football?”

They have a script.  They go off it if the situation absolutely calls for it - goal line, 3rd and 15, etc.  I didn't say that, the coaches did.  I posted some links with quotes from Walsh, Steve Young, Shanahan and Matt LaFleur.  That seems to be the consensus.  They have the script but rarely, if ever, get through it.

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34 minutes ago, 68JET11 said:

Hit the nail on the head.... I was going to say the same thing. Self reflection aside, he needs to know his personnel and adjust his play calling to who is on the field. If the zone blocking isn't working, then switch it up. I'm not saying that he shouldn't implement that type of scheme, but until you have the personnel to make it work at least 85-90 percent of the time, then work on something else. I think the best coaches are those who can coach to the talent, not someone trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Open up the formations, work on 3 step drop backs and getting the ball out of Wilson's hand quicker. I think that will open the running game as well.

You need only look at Zach's splits to see that Wilson has been terrible in play action, under center and when he holds the ball longer than 2.5 seconds.  So, less play action. More Shotgun. And drill into the kid that mostly bad things happen after he's held the ball for more than 2.5 seconds so he should make his read, grip and rip it, and if there is nothing there throw it away or run the ball. (Frankly for an athletic speedy kid he doesn't tuck and run enough.)


 

 

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10 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

They have a script.  They go off it if the situation absolutely calls for it - goal line, 3rd and 15, etc.  I didn't say that, the coaches did.  I posted some links with quotes from Walsh, Steve Young, Shanahan and Matt LaFleur.  That seems to be the consensus.  They have the script but rarely, if ever, get through it.

Well yea but there are folks on JN who clearly know better than these chumps.

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11 hours ago, doitny said:

there are no top notch guys.

i bet you like many others wanted Joe Brady before the season started. go look and see how much the Carolina fans think of him.

i swear if you closed your eyes and someone read it to you , you would think they were talking about Lafluer.

there are no good OCs.. its the players. Wilson stops throwing at feet and LaFluer will look great. 

You're not so far off. Like most things, coaching skill falls along a bell curve. Between the few truly transcendent and the total maroons, most are largely interchangeable. If you look at the list of HCs in the HOF, there are very few in the modern era who didn't also have a HOF QB for a goodly part of their careers. Bill Parcells really stands out from a modern standpoint -- he never had a HOF QB yet won 2 SBs and has a .570 career winning percentage. That's pretty incredible.

Bill Cowher gets some points also. He did have a couple years of Big Ben (and won a SB with him) before he retired but Big Ben was not playing like a probable-HOF in those early years. Has a .623 career winning percentage.

Again I'm only highlighting the more modern guys. I don't know enough about the old timers in the HOF and it was a different game then where you could build a consistent winner on defense/running game.

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9 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

You need only look at Zach's splits to see that Wilson has been terrible in play action, under center and when he holds the ball longer than 2.5 seconds.  So, less play action. More Shotgun. And drill into the kid that mostly bad things happen after he's held the ball for more than 2.5 seconds so he should make his read, grip and rip it, and if there is nothing there throw it away or run the ball. (Frankly for an athletic speedy kid he doesn't tuck and run enough.)


 

 

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Good points, but don't those statistics show that is exactly what they are doing?   Seems like a huge amount of shotgun and not too much play action for an offense that is predicated on it.  Do we have stats game by game?  I wonder if they are moving the way you suggest until the kid gets comfortable. 

I think your "grip it and rip it" comment is exactly what Wilson was talking about in his presser.  Somehow the board morphed that into him telling LaFleur to go **** himself. 

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17 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Good points, but don't those statistics show that is exactly what they are doing?   Seems like a huge amount of shotgun and not too much play action for an offense that is predicated on it.  Do we have stats game by game?  I wonder if they are moving the way you suggest until the kid gets comfortable. 

I think your "grip it and rip it" comment is exactly what Wilson was talking about in his presser.  Somehow the board morphed that into him telling LaFleur to go **** himself. 

I think the splits are a little misleading because they do not show the run, but you make a good point. I really do not not know how often he is lined up in shotgun vs under center for the totality of plays. I'd be curious to know how often they Jets run from shotgun. If it's never than the D line gets a huge pass rush advantage.

Anyway, the more I look at the split related to time, the more it is apparent that the kid has the goods. As he gets more comfortable and gets rid of the ball faster, he will see a great deal of sustained success. 

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39 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

They have a script.  They go off it if the situation absolutely calls for it - goal line, 3rd and 15, etc.  I didn't say that, the coaches did.  I posted some links with quotes from Walsh, Steve Young, Shanahan and Matt LaFleur.  That seems to be the consensus.  They have the script but rarely, if ever, get through it.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, or anything like that at all. It’s really a semantical issue. “Scripting” implies a certain thing that isn’t being done. So what’s the point in scripting the first 24 plays of a game if the script is rarely run through? Rhetorically, is that not a waste of time and resources?  I can see scripting the first 10 1st-down plays and improvising from there— that makes sense to me— scripting entire drives has always seemed stupid to me for exactly the reasons those guys describe. 

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41 minutes ago, the Claw said:

I’m not saying you’re wrong, or anything like that at all. It’s really a semantical issue. “Scripting” implies a certain thing that isn’t being done. So what’s the point in scripting the first 24 plays of a game if the script is rarely run through? Rhetorically, is that not a waste of time and resources?  I can see scripting the first 10 1st-down plays and improvising from there— that makes sense to me— scripting entire drives has always seemed stupid to me for exactly the reasons those guys describe. 

Read the links I posted the other day in this thread or google them yourself.  Steve Young said that they did it to send a message to guys during the week of what they were going to do and who should "be on notice."  Some other reasons were to run the plays to diagnose the defenses response for use later.  To give a point of emphasis is practice.  They mention a ton of stuff.

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4 hours ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

In his defense, the defense usually gives up 10 minute scoring drives to open the game and when he finally gets the ball they run it twice for 2 yards and if he doesn't complete a 3rd and 6 they punt and he doesn't see the ball again until the 2nd quarter. 

Wilson and the offense need to get better but the defense has been atrocious all year. It's a fallacy that this defense has played well or even average. They just don't look as bad because the focus is on the offense. If the Jets offense started scoring at a high rate the defense would be exposed.  

It would also be nice for the defense to get a 3 and out (not sure I remember the last time that happened) and get Wilson the ball right back and in good field position. I would bet the Jets offense has a bottom 5 starting field position average in the NFL.

There is no defense, 5 completions in 5 quarters of football is beyond abysmal.  

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11 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

You need only look at Zach's splits to see that Wilson has been terrible in play action, under center and when he holds the ball longer than 2.5 seconds.  So, less play action. More Shotgun. And drill into the kid that mostly bad things happen after he's held the ball for more than 2.5 seconds so he should make his read, grip and rip it, and if there is nothing there throw it away or run the ball. (Frankly for an athletic speedy kid he doesn't tuck and run enough.)


 

 

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Play action only works if the running game is working, and right now it's not. So agree, keep the kid in the shotgun and run from that formation also.

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There are about 21 total plays per quarter on average (I think?). half of those go to the other team, which means that LaFleur is scripting the WHOLE FIRST HALF. 'Not working' means 'Non-scripted is better than scripted', so how about mixing things up? The first half has been by far the worst half for the jets this whole season (2.6 pts/1st half to 10.2 pts/ 2nd half), so I don't see any reason to continue scripting that many plays

Right. How about scripting 1-2 plays and seeing how it’s going. Then just live in the moments of the game.


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The plays have been there at times, just need to execute.

Wilson has been missing passes, and then when he makes the right throw, Corey Davis usually drops it on a crucial 3rd down. Just need to get better.

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2 hours ago, GREENBEAN said:


Right. How about scripting 1-2 plays and seeing how it’s going. Then just live in the moments of the game.


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Agreed. Zach has shown he does better when he can improvise, and he always does better in the second half too. Like you said, scripting the first 1-2 plays would allow the team to be able to jumpstart momentum and see how the other team works, but after that I feel there isn't a need to continue scripting, and it just gets in the way. When you're scripting the whole first half, it isn't going to work because the other team isn't always going to be the same.

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I’m not going to shoot LaFleur down so early in his career as OC and trying to rebuild a 2-14 team. But as much as I dislike McDaniel you can’t compare the job he’s done with Jones vs our offense with a rookie Qb. I’ve seen some tweaks and improvements in game plan and many of the probs are lack of execution by the players including Wilson. Jones obviously has learned the NEP offense a lot faster than Wilson has LaFleur’s. Word from NEP training camp was that he knew the offense better than Cam and that’s why they cut Cam. Hopefully that will change on Sunday but not optimistic on that front. 

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