Zach Wilson is awful

[Smashmouth]

7 hours ago, Action Zachtion said:

Run blocking is my concern.  I'd trade some pass protection for a real run game.   Or I'd accept it for what it is an throw first to set up the run and skip the first quarter of futility where they try to establish a run first attack.  

we are not going to have a real run game with the guys we have running the ball.

[HighPitch]

10 hours ago, The Crusher said:

Yeah maybe but other than beating the Jets twice he has won as many games as Zach Wilson. Once can make the argument he is in a modestly better situation with a better defense and a somewhat better coaching staff. Or maybe that's just my brutal jealousy talking. 

Lets revisit this when the pats have 9 wins vs our 2

[Snell41]

This thread is a joke. It's the coaching without a doubt. I find it hard to believe that if Zach was on the Pats that Belichick wouldn't have Zach looking like an absolute stud because he would actually, ya know, do what a coach does and create a gameplan that caters to his strengths and stays away from his weaknesses instead of trying to implement some bullsh*t offensive system that they don't even know if it works or not. Clearly it doesn't.

If the Pats were picking #2 overall they were taking Mac Jones.


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[92ShaunEllis92]

Carolina Panthers should consider message if they pursue Deshaun Watson

 

Carolina Panthers quarterback Sam Darnold was benched Sunday, as the Panthers (3-4) lost their fourth straight game. Al Bello/Getty Images

CHARLOTTE, N.C. – The question isn’t: Will the Carolina Panthers again pursue Houston Texans quarterback Deshaun Watson after another failed performance by Sam Darnold on Sunday, this time at MetLife Stadium, where Darnold spent his first three seasons with the New York Jets?

The question is: Should they pursue Watson, a player who is facing 22 active lawsuits alleging sexual assault and inappropriate behavior?

It was less than four years ago that David Tepper, after being unanimously approved as the new owner of the Panthers, talked about changing the culture of an organization he purchased from Jerry Richardson.

The NFL fined Richardson $2.75 million after its investigation into alleged workplace misconduct, including sexual harassment and the use of a racial slur toward a team scout.

“I’ve had a business for 25 years,’’ Tepper said. “I’m a person that believes in equality for everybody, including men and women. ... Anything that comes out of this [NFL Richardson investigation] is the past. The past is the past.’’

Pursuing Watson, as the Panthers did before the league began looking into accusations against the former Clemson star, brings the past to the present. It brings with it something else Tepper said on May 22, 2018, the day his purchase of the team became official.

“The first thing I care about is winning,’’ Tepper said. “The second thing I care about is winning. The third thing I care about is?’’

The Panthers haven’t been winning since Tepper paid an NFL-record $2.275 billion for the franchise. Carolina is a collective 20-35, and 3-4 this season after losing its fourth consecutive game, 25-3 to the New York Giants (2-5).

Darnold was so bad that coach Matt Rhule benched him early in the fourth quarter. For the game, Darnold was 16-of-25 for 111 yards, no touchdowns and one interception, and his 10.7 Total QBR ranks 21st of 24 quarterbacks in Week 7.

He’s been bad the past four games without star running back Christian McCaffrey (hamstring), throwing seven interceptions and compiling a 28.4 Total QBR that ranks 32nd among 33 qualifying quarterbacks during that span, according to ESPN Stats & Information. Only Chicago Bears rookie Justin Fields is worse.

This came after compiling a 63.6 QBR the first three games with McCaffrey, which ranked seventh.

Because of Darnold’s recent play, Rhule was questioned after Sunday's game about whether this changed the team’s approach to the trade deadline on Nov. 2.

In other words: Are the Panthers interested now in pursuing Watson?

Rhule downplayed that, saying “I can’t look into the future, but I don’t believe it will.’’

But what was most concerning about Darnold’s latest blunder was his demeanor after being benched.

Rhule said he wanted the loss to “infuriate and upset us.’’

Darnold didn’t appear to be either infuriated or upset.

Darnold wouldn’t even admit to being embarrassed by the decision to bench him.

“When you get to that point, getting pulled, I just internalize it,’’ he said. “Honestly, it’s more of those situations where it is what it is.’’

That may be part Darnold’s problems. He should have been embarrassed and said so. He should have been fiery mad at himself for playing so poorly he had to be benched. He should have had steam coming off his forehead instead of a numbing, nonchalant stream of quotes about the lack of execution from everybody.

He should have been like defensive end Brian Burns, worried that the Panthers are headed for a fourth straight losing season.

“We need to fix it now before it gets scary,’’ Burns said. “It’s scary now, to be honest.’’

Darnold should be scared for his football future.

He failed with the Jets, going 13-25 in his first three seasons after being the third pick of the 2018 draft. Now he’s failing with the Panthers.

When asked if this simply was a slump, Darnold said, “That’s a good word for it.’’

If that’s the case, Darnold has been in a slump almost his entire NFL career. You can blame the Jets for not surrounding him with enough talent. You can blame what’s happened at Carolina in part to being without McCaffrey and with an offensive line plagued by injuries.

But Giants quarterback Daniel Jonesdidn’t have franchise running back Saquon Barkley and most of his starting receivers, and yet he found a way to make plays. He even made an outstanding one-handed catch on a flea-flicker.

Darnold, who had his top two receivers, found ways to make plays that hurt the Panthers. He had an intentional grounding in the end zone that became a safety. He had an interception near the goal line that wasn’t close to his receiver.

He missed other open receivers, as well.

Rhule tried to sugarcoat it by saying the team’s performance was “unacceptable for all of us.’’ He followed that by saying, “I don’t want to call any one guy out.’’

But he did call out Darnold -- during the game.

He benched him in favor of P.J. Walker, an undrafted player who made a brief name for himself in the XFL before reuniting with his former Temple coach at Carolina last season.

And all Darnold said about that was, “It is what it is.’’

So despite Rhule saying Darnold will be his starter this week against Atlanta and moving forward, things could change.

Don’t forget, in February of 2020, Rhule said he “really wanted’’ Cam Newton to be a part of his first team. A month later, Newton was released and the Panthers signed Teddy Bridgewater to replace him.

Whether Watson will be involved remains to be seen. League sources told ESPN.com the Panthers wouldn’t mortgage the future and give up the three first-round draft picks the Texans reportedly want for Watson.

But sources told ESPN’s Jeremy Fowlerthe Panthers indeed are looking at their options for Watson.

The Panthers already have picked up Darnold’s fifth-year option that guarantees him $18.8 million in 2022, so that has to be considered too. Watson's base salary is $10.5 million in 2021, but it jumps to $35 million in 2022, per Spotrac.

Rhule later admitted Sunday he didn’t want to say anything was on the table or off the table.

“We’ll see who responds,’’ Rhule said. “Let’s find out who’s got that edge. We want to become a really, really tough franchise. A tough building, and I have not gotten that done. When things like this happen it’s right on my shoulder. I have not gotten that done.

“If we don’t become a tough team soon we’re going to have to make some serious changes.’’

[The Crusher]

8 hours ago, HighPitch said:

Lets revisit this when the pats have 9 wins vs our 2

They are not winning six more games, they will win less 5 more or less. We will likely win 2 more. 

[Jet Nut]

23 hours ago, DrFrasierCrane said:

He’s probably not the answer, but got to give him more than five games. 
 

Nothing about him jumps off the page as a franchise QB to me. Mac Jones and Lawrence look to be the franchise guys from this draft. 

What has Lawrence done other than to be the same if not worse over their first 5 games?  Oh, hes Sunshine and Sunshine gets nothing but great press while the NY kid gets scrutinized in the press.  

[Jet Nut]

8 hours ago, HighPitch said:

Lets revisit this when the pats have 9 wins vs our 2

So you think the teams are equal, Zach should have won the big two games Mac won while Zach had only one win?

[Jet Nut]

21 hours ago, Sellis92 said:

He sucked facing the falcons on a neutral site.  

At a neutral site, thats important.  Because lets say Lawrence or Fields sucking at home with a Home field advantage is now telling

Development of a rookie QB is dependent on home field?  lol

[jgb]

But what was most concerning about Darnold’s latest blunder was his demeanor after being benched.

Rhule said he wanted the loss to “infuriate and upset us.’’

Darnold didn’t appear to be either infuriated or upset.

Darnold wouldn’t even admit to being embarrassed by the decision to bench him.

“When you get to that point, getting pulled, I just internalize it,’’ he said. “Honestly, it’s more of those situations where it is what it is.’’
That may be part Darnold’s problems. He should have been embarrassed and said so. He should have been fiery mad at himself for playing so poorly he had to be benched. He should have had steam coming off his forehead instead of a numbing, nonchalant stream of quotes about the lack of execution from everybody.

****

Sure was smart to spend 3 years putting only tomato cans behind Darnold for fear of "putting too much pressure on him." He wouldn't know competition if it bit him in the cold sore.

Never trust a boogie boarder from SoCal. Alphas surf. Betas boogie.

[Snell41]

You are the worst poster on this board. All you do is incessantly bash Wilson. GFY

Thank you?!? ??‍♂️


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[Sellis92]

17 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

What has Lawrence done other than to be the same if not worse over their first 5 games?  Oh, hes Sunshine and Sunshine gets nothing but great press why the NY kid gets scrutinized in the press.  

Lawrence is better than Zack.  Take it easy Homer Simpson

[Sellis92]

16 hours ago, rangerous said:

that's pretty silly.  nothing wilson did lost this game.  he started to get in rhythm before he was injured and you just can't say he wouldn't have continued to do better as the game went on.

Wilson wasn’t good.  He was 6-10 for 50 yards before getting injured (he had an injury history prior to us drafting him).  And he stunk in pretty much all the previous games except facing the Titans secondary which is near or at the bottom of the league defending the pass

 

The kid was the second pick overall in the draft.  We should have higher standards for him even as a rookie

[Sellis92]

15 minutes ago, jgb said:

But what was most concerning about Darnold’s latest blunder was his demeanor after being benched.

Rhule said he wanted the loss to “infuriate and upset us.’’

Darnold didn’t appear to be either infuriated or upset.

Darnold wouldn’t even admit to being embarrassed by the decision to bench him.

“When you get to that point, getting pulled, I just internalize it,’’ he said. “Honestly, it’s more of those situations where it is what it is.’’
That may be part Darnold’s problems. He should have been embarrassed and said so. He should have been fiery mad at himself for playing so poorly he had to be benched. He should have had steam coming off his forehead instead of a numbing, nonchalant stream of quotes about the lack of execution from everybody.

****

Sure was smart to spend 3 years putting only tomato cans behind Darnold for fear of "putting too much pressure on him." He wouldn't know competition if it bit him in the cold sore.

Never trust a boogie boarder from SoCal. Alphas surf. Betas boogie.

Sam won 12 games his first 2 seasons here with an even worse supporting cast and two bone headed head coaches

 

Zack might not 12 games his entire career before becoming a journeyman backup

[jgb]

6 minutes ago, Sellis92 said:

Sam won 12 games his first 2 seasons here with an even worse supporting cast and two bone headed head coaches

 

Zack might not 12 games his entire career before becoming a journeyman backup

Darnold and Wilson are independent variables. Darnold was known-suck. Wilson is still maybe-suck. I'll take maybe-suck every time, even though I did not want Wilson at all.

Also, I said when Darnold was traded that it was likely that Baker Mayfield (who people love to malign here) already had more wins to date than Darnold will have for his entire career.

[Jet Nut]

16 minutes ago, Sellis92 said:

Lawrence is better than Zack.  Take it easy Homer Simpson

Really?

Nothing really says that.

They've been pretty similar

[bla bla bla]

22 hours ago, DrFrasierCrane said:

He’s probably not the answer, but got to give him more than five games. 
 

Nothing about him jumps off the page as a franchise QB to me. Mac Jones and Lawrence look to be the franchise guys from this draft. 

I don't get all the love for Mac Jones. He has mastered plays inside 5 yards. Lawrence I'll admit I have not watched enough of.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, bla bla bla said:

I don't get all the love for Mac Jones. He has mastered plays inside 5 yards. Lawrence I'll admit I have not watched enough of.

The Patriots have done an incredible job of bringing Mac along. So good, in fact, that it's hard to tell whether Mac's performance is on him or the system and development plan put in place for him. 

[Uncle Nicco]

1 minute ago, bla bla bla said:

I don't get all the love for Mac Jones. He has mastered plays inside 5 yards. Lawrence I'll admit I have not watched enough of.

Media narratives, our fans eat them up like hot cakes. 

[jgb]

11 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

we are not going to have a real run game with the guys we have running the ball.

A credible pass game wouldn't hurt, either.

[Hael]

PFF currently has fields as the worst qb in the league

Fields (49.3 rank 33/33)

Trey Lance (59.0 no rank b/c not enough snaps)

Trevor Lawrence (56.8 29/33)

Zach Wilson (59.5 27/33)

Mac Jones (82.5 13/33)

[munchmemory]

Know what's both weird and telling?  Zack Wilson gets hurt and there really isn't much buzz about it.  I saw more passion/anger with Flacco getting signed.  Shows you that the fanbase is already tired of Zack's play.   Kinda sad really.

[bla bla bla]

3 minutes ago, jgb said:

The Patriots have done an incredible job of bringing Mac along. So good, in fact, that it's hard to tell whether Mac's performance is on him or the system and development plan put in place for him. 

I see Mac as the most Pro ready of the QBs, landing with the best HC, the best roster, and not needing to be relied on. 

He's doing exactly what he needs to do, thats not bashing him. I'm just not impressed with him at this point.

[Snell41]

I don't get all the love for Mac Jones. He has mastered plays inside 5 yards. Lawrence I'll admit I have not watched enough of.

And eventually he’ll master plays within 10 yards, then 20. Just like Brady did. Brady was a popgun arm dink and dunk QB his first couple seasons. There used to be threads debating whether Pennington had a stronger arm when Brady first came out.

The difference between Mac Jones and Zach Wilson is simple. Mac Jones has years of experience playing high quality football against high quality opponents. Mac Jones understands the defense he sees and knows where to go with the ball. His struggle is doing it at NFL speed, but given his experience facing high level competition he’s not far behind.

Zach Wilson does not understand what’s going on in front of him. He’s not recognizing what the D is is trying to do pre or post snap, and he’s just trying to improvise to what he sees in real time. That’s the marked difference between the two. Mac Jones just needs to catch up to the speed of the game, but he understands the game at a pro level. Zach is not only far behind the speed of the game, he’s far behind the intelligence of the position. He has zero business starting in the NFL right now, and unfortunately our leadership thinks he can learn this on the fly.


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[bla bla bla]

3 minutes ago, munchmemory said:

Know what's both weird and telling?  Zack Wilson gets hurt and there really isn't much buzz about it.  I saw more passion/anger with Flacco getting signed.  Shows you that the fanbase is already tired of Zack's play.   Kinda sad really.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, bla bla bla said:

I see Mac as the most Pro ready of the QBs, landing with the best HC, the best roster, and not needing to be relied on. 

He's doing exactly what he needs to do, thats not bashing him. I'm just not impressed with him at this point.

And that's a fair take. I had Mac above Wilson FYI to much mockery back before the draft. Too early for "I told you so," however.

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

 

And eventually he’ll master plays within 10 yards, then 20. Just like Brady did. Brady was a popgun arm dink and dunk QB his first couple seasons. There used to be threads debating whether Pennington had a stronger arm when Brady first came out.


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Yeah imagine a coaching staff who actually has a plan to build a young QB up piece by piece. Instead, LaFleur throws Zach into a system so complex that only opposing defenses seem to understand it.

[bla bla bla]

2 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

 

And eventually he’ll master plays within 10 yards, then 20. Just like Brady did. Brady was a popgun arm dink and dunk QB his first couple seasons. There used to be threads debating whether Pennington had a stronger arm when Brady first came out.

The difference between Mac Jones and Zach Wilson is simple. Mac Jones has years of experience playing high quality football against high quality opponents. Mac Jones understands the defense he sees and knows where to go with the ball. His struggle is doing it at NFL speed, but given his experience facing high level competition he’s not far behind.

Zach Wilson does not understand what’s going on in front of him. He’s not recognizing what the D is is trying to do pre or post snap, and he’s just trying to improvise to what he sees in real time. That’s the marked difference between the two. Mac Jones just needs to catch up to the speed of the game, but he understands the game at a pro level. Zach is not only far behind the speed of the game, he’s far behind the intelligence of the position. He has zero business starting in the NFL right now, and unfortunately our leadership thinks he can learn this on the fly.


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We knew this coming in though. The more pro ready QB went to the best roster with the better HC. Zach coming from BYU was going to take time with a bad roster around him.

If you plug Mac in here I don't think he does much better. If you put Zach in NE I think he's the best of the class.

[munchmemory]

3 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Look at the board and in the media.  The coverage is a fraction of what you'd expect after a #2 pick goes down.  The past two days have been more about us getting blown out in NE, Saleh/JD failures and Flacco.   I expected more outrage and moaning over Zack's injury.  But it's not really there.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, bla bla bla said:

If you plug Mac in here I don't think he does much better. If you put Zach in NE I think he's the best of the class.

We have accelerated quickly to the Siegfried Line of QB defenses.

[Snell41]

We knew this coming in though. The more pro ready QB went to the best roster with the better HC. Zach coming from BYU was going to take time with a bad roster around him.
If you plug Mac in here I don't think he does much better. If you put Zach in NE I think he's the best of the class.

Right, but then draft him in the second round and sit him for 2 or 3 years. We had no business drafting this kid #2 overall and most certainly no business starting him. That was a monumentally bad decision on all accounts. And with all due respect, NE’s offense is really no better than ours except at TE. Mac Jones is just a pro caliber QB. He won’t be a perennial top 5 guy, but he’s pro caliber right now. Zach Wilson isn’t even close to pro caliber. He does not understand the position, and furthermore handing him the keys and letting him crash the family car into everything in sight seems to fly right in the face of telling a guy like Mims he can’t see the field until he learns every detail of every position abd frankly raises credibility issues with leadership.


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[Snell41]

Yeah imagine a coaching staff who actually has a plan to build a young QB up piece by piece. Instead, LaFleur throws Zach into a system so complex that only opposing defenses seem to understand it.

It’s not a complex system, it’s very basic. The problem is Wilson does not understand the basics of an NFL defense and how to properly react to it.


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[jgb]

Just now, Snell41 said:

 

It’s not a complex system, it’s very basic. The problem is Wilson does not understand the basics of an NFL defense and how to properly react to it.


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I was being flippant

[Snell41]

I was being flippant

I’m sorry, it’s hard to tell on the webz these days.

I keep going back to the play he was injured on, but it’s such a perfect example of Wilson’s incompetence. It was such a simple rollout, deep WR (Cole) clears the area, RB runs shallow cross and WR (I believe it was Davis) ran an intermediate crossing route. The 2 crossing routes puts the defenders to a decision, if they crash down on the RB you hit the deep WR cross. If they stay back then hit the RB for a reasonable 8-10 yard gain. In the case of the actual play the defenders didn’t commit to either route and subsequently left both wide open for Zach to choose. Inexplicably Zach decided instead to hurl a prayer to the deep route that was double covered. The play was literally designed for him to be double covered so the under routes are cleared, at no point unless the D is in man cover zero is that deep receiver a viable option. It was mind numbingly stupid to make that throw and it caused him to hold the ball long enough to end up taking the hit that injured him.

Again, 8 seconds in you see the RB wide open. At 10 seconds in you see the other crossing WR that was wide open on the second level. That’s a play where Zach was given 2 options, and he completely ignored them. He’s lucky it wasn’t picked off and the play was saved by an awful PI committed by NE, but 100 out of 100 times against that defensive scheme throwing to the deep route wrong on every level of basic football.

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[Jet Nut]

51 minutes ago, Sellis92 said:

Sam won 12 games his first 2 seasons here with an even worse supporting cast and two bone headed head coaches

 

Zack might not 12 games his entire career before becoming a journeyman backup

He won 11.  

The less talent is debatable.  

And if 11 is relevant to anything then 2 wins last year is.  Word as a downward trend 

[Uncle Nicco]

32 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

 

And eventually he’ll master plays within 10 yards, then 20. Just like Brady did. Brady was a popgun arm dink and dunk QB his first couple seasons. There used to be threads debating whether Pennington had a stronger arm when Brady first came out.

The difference between Mac Jones and Zach Wilson is simple. Mac Jones has years of experience playing high quality football against high quality opponents. Mac Jones understands the defense he sees and knows where to go with the ball. His struggle is doing it at NFL speed, but given his experience facing high level competition he’s not far behind.

Zach Wilson does not understand what’s going on in front of him. He’s not recognizing what the D is is trying to do pre or post snap, and he’s just trying to improvise to what he sees in real time. That’s the marked difference between the two. Mac Jones just needs to catch up to the speed of the game, but he understands the game at a pro level. Zach is not only far behind the speed of the game, he’s far behind the intelligence of the position. He has zero business starting in the NFL right now, and unfortunately our leadership thinks he can learn this on the fly.


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Yes just because Brady was able to evolve into the GOAT Macaroni Jones will do the same. Awesome sample size. In fact it’s much more likely that he is Jacoby Brisset or Matt Cassell, who also looked comfortable early. You don’t just learn how to throw the ball down field, that requires natural talent. Brady was a great baseball player and always had a gun.