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Zack Wilson Can Take a Seat


Barry McCockinner
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11 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Agree. I just hope the CS is willing to let White finish the season. 

They need to. Was he even sacked today other than that one play where he ran out of bounds instead of throwing it away.  He defiantely got the ball OUT quickly. That is the main thing. Zach needs to learn this. Look at Matt Jones. One two OUT. Josh McDaniles is very very good.   He has been able to game plan around Jones' skillset.  

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29 minutes ago, JTJet said:

95% of the takes here are absurd. 

The difference between today and the previous games is night and day, 

- Slapnuts Lafleur was up in the booth and not down on the field 40 yards off line of scrimmage, which he should have been doing from week 1. 

- We actually elected to receive to start the game and not immediately go down 7 points, putting the team behind instantly. 

- The personel groupings were wildly different than the first 6 games. 

- Play calling was wildly different than the first 6 games. We weren't running nowhere on fiirst and second downs, creating third and long at the beginning of every drive. 

I want to see Zach get a chance to play a game with Lafleur up in the box, calling THOSE plays with THOSE groupings before I jump on the asinine bandwagon of trading Zach away for a box of donuts.

Disagree.  Get that box of donuts while the offer is still on the table!

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31 minutes ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

This entire thread is such a complete overreaction to today's game and Wilson's NFL starts.  You can't judge White on one game and you can't judge Wilson on 4 games ( he missed most of the NE loss). I remember Browning Nagle's first start in 1991.   He looked absolutely fantastic.  And then he crapped the bed for the rest of his career.  

Today's win was the result of a number of factors. It wasn't only the QB. The play calling was completely different than the prior 5 games.  The first 5 Jets plays and 8 of the first 10 were passes. Lafleur called more first down passes today than in the prior 5 games combined.  Throw in the option plays,  the pass to White for the 2-pt conversion, and the numerous screens and passes to the RBs.  Where has that been before today?  It was also long overdue for Lafleur to sit in the booth rather than stand on the sideline where you can't see crap.  

Let's let the season play out before anyone is anointed as anything - good or bad.  

How about giving the CS and GM some credit for today as well?  All I heard all week form the usual cast of characters is that Saleh and Douglas were awful and needed to be replaced.  

 

This is great stuff. I mean, this is essentially what Matt Jones does,. Backs get most of the targets, quick short throws. Nothing super fancy. The one pass he did try down the field was wide open and he overthrew him by 20 yards (would've been called back anyway). Im happy for the win (which I think had more to do with scheme, groupings, what Joe willie said), but the threads of him being the next Brady or he's a QB1 after checking down or quick throwing most of the game are laughable at best. These threads will age very well I have a feeling

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1 hour ago, Prodigal Syndicate said:

Okay, but watching the games its abundantly clear White has a weak arm.

 

Also, why exactly does Wilson deserve to be cut some slack? He was the 2nd overall pick and has looked horrendous.

I thought I saw some tight spirals with some zip on them today, granted I saw some throws last week where he was throwing downfield and he might have wanted to put touch on some of them, that he missed, or maybe he really does have a problem with throwing a deep ball.

You're right about Wilson looking horrendous more often than not, in a very small sample size, but I've also seen him hit throws that very few pro QBs can make, as Chris Simms just said.

Way too early to make any concrete judgements on either of them and any talk that is already being thrown out there about Wilson being "a bust" and that he "sucks", is not fair at this point.

Try to enjoy what was to me an out of nowhere shocking surprise today and what it might mean for the entire team going forward.  I was fully expecting them to get stomped on both sides of the ball today and then see that happen over and over again until it would be debated on that "maybe Wilson should be just shut down for the entire season, no sense on taking the chance that he gets even more damaged on a team that "can't pass block, catch, or run", which what the Offense has looked liken almost all season...UNTIL TODAY.

The Jets are the youngest team in I think the AFC and maybe in the whole NFL and they now have Two very big notches on their belt this season...Tennessee and now Cincy...that in itself is impressive.

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1 hour ago, Barry McCockinner said:

We should definitely go by what happened in preseason instead of the regular season.

I’m just saying the narrative that we never should have started Wilson game 1 was false. He looked ready based on training camp. Obviously he hasn’t looked ready since. 

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The overreaction to one good game from a backup, castoff, 5th round pick is almost as cringe as the overreaction to the slow start from our 2nd overall, QB from BYU. 
 

😂😂😂

 

Its funny as hell though and when white falls back down to earth, it will be even more comical 

 

If anyone should be getting praise it should be the OC. I have been very critical of him but he called a better game today and if can do this moving forward the offense should be fine.

But I’m not jumping out of the building yet, these scrubs have to show us some consistency before we give them our hearts back! 

But in the meantime I will enjoy the win 🤷‍♂️

Cheers 🥂  

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2 hours ago, oatmeal said:

The overreaction to one good game from a backup, castoff, 5th round pick is almost as cringe as the overreaction to the slow start from our 2nd overall, QB from BYU. 
 

😂😂😂

 

Its funny as hell though and when white falls back down to earth, it will be even more comical 

 

If anyone should be getting praise it should be the OC. I have been very critical of him but he called a better game today and if can do this moving forward the offense should be fine.

But I’m not jumping out of the building yet, these scrubs have to show us some consistency before we give them our hearts back! 

But in the meantime I will enjoy the win 🤷‍♂️

Cheers 🥂  

What I find funny is that some of the same people who were unreasonably critical of Mike LaFluer while Zack Wilson was sucking at QB now do mental gymnastics to explain away the offense looking good with a different QB rather than just see the obvious improvement from the player at the QB position. Some of them even claim that LaFleur ran an entirely different offense yesterday as to further discredit LaFluer and not be critical of Wilson.

It's very simple and there's no need for these mental gymnastics. Wilson has been playing awful and ruining the flow of the offense. White played better and the offense flowed better. 

Until Wilson is ready to run a big boy offense or Mike White shows he isn't effective, White should be starting over him.

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16 hours ago, heymangold said:

Yes.  I think LaFleur thought he could throw everything at Wilson and it obviously didn’t work.  I also think it was scaled back for White and that’s why there’s success.  You can’t tell me that the game flow and play selection isn’t vastly different than the beginning of the season.

Yea the game flow looked different because the QB was playing within the system, making quick reads and getting the ball to the open receiver. 

LaFleur didn't change the entire offense for White. White is a better NFL QB right now than Zack Wilson and that's OK. Wilson can grow up and be better.

Mental gymnastics.

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9 hours ago, adobolo2 said:

Mike white may not be the long term answer at QB for the Jets, but today proved the Zack Wilson is definitely not the future nor never should have been selected at number 2 overall.

What a terrible take. And I’m saying that from the standpoint you may ultimately be proven right. It still doesn’t matter, it’s a horrible take.

Nobody has any clue what Zach will become right now. Nobody. Not you. Not the coaches. Not the GM. Not football gurus. Not Vegas. Nobody.

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10 hours ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

This entire thread is such a complete overreaction to today's game and Wilson's NFL starts.  You can't judge White on one game and you can't judge Wilson on 4 games ( he missed most of the NE loss). I remember Browning Nagle's first start in 1991.   He looked absolutely fantastic.  And then he crapped the bed for the rest of his career.  

Today's win was the result of a number of factors. It wasn't only the QB. The play calling was completely different than the prior 5 games.  The first 5 Jets plays and 8 of the first 10 were passes. Lafleur called more first down passes today than in the prior 5 games combined.  Throw in the option plays,  the pass to White for the 2-pt conversion, and the numerous screens and passes to the RBs.  Where has that been before today?  It was also long overdue for Lafleur to sit in the booth rather than stand on the sideline where you can't see crap.  

Let's let the season play out before anyone is anointed as anything - good or bad.  

How about giving the CS and GM some credit for today as well?  All I heard all week form the usual cast of characters is that Saleh and Douglas were awful and needed to be replaced.  

Peeing into the wind bro, trust me on this 

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10 hours ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

This entire thread is such a complete overreaction to today's game and Wilson's NFL starts.  You can't judge White on one game and you can't judge Wilson on 4 games ( he missed most of the NE loss). I remember Browning Nagle's first start in 1991.   He looked absolutely fantastic.  And then he crapped the bed for the rest of his career.  

Today's win was the result of a number of factors. It wasn't only the QB. The play calling was completely different than the prior 5 games.  The first 5 Jets plays and 8 of the first 10 were passes. Lafleur called more first down passes today than in the prior 5 games combined.  Throw in the option plays,  the pass to White for the 2-pt conversion, and the numerous screens and passes to the RBs.  Where has that been before today?  It was also long overdue for Lafleur to sit in the booth rather than stand on the sideline where you can't see crap.  

Let's let the season play out before anyone is anointed as anything - good or bad.  

How about giving the CS and GM some credit for today as well?  All I heard all week form the usual cast of characters is that Saleh and Douglas were awful and needed to be replaced.  

By your same argument, why should we give "CS and GM" credit for one game?

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43 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

What I find funny is that some of the same people who were unreasonably critical of Mike LaFluer while Zack Wilson was sucking at QB now do mental gymnastics to explain away the offense looking good with a different QB rather than just see the obvious improvement from the player at the QB position. Some of them even claim that LaFleur ran an entirely different offense yesterday as to further discredit LaFluer and not be critical of Wilson.

It's very simple and there's no need for these mental gymnastics. Wilson has been playing awful and ruining the flow of the offense. White played better and the offense flowed better. 

Until Wilson is ready to run a big boy offense or Mike White shows he isn't effective, White should be starting over him.

The idea that LaFleur suddenly called, the good plays, is comical.  If you read this board, you would think he's been intentionally sabotaging Wilson just waiting for his chance to get into the booth so he can coach Mike White up!  So ridiculous.  Zach Wilson is the worst QB in the NFL, he bounces balls off the ground to RB's in the flat, he misses wide open receivers constantly and forces the ball inaccurately into coverage, turns the ball over every game and is constantly going off script, constantly blowing his drops backs and throwing the entire timing of the play off.  These are very bad habits and the mark of a bad QB.    The offense has looked 10x better since the second Mike White took over because he plays within the system and takes what the D gives him.  

Who gives a **** if it's White or Wilson?  I root for name on the front of the jersey, not the one on the back.  Mike White is better than Zach Wilson, great, cool, awesome!  Play the better player.  

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22 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Yea the game flow looked different because the QB was playing within the system, making quick reads and getting the ball to the open receiver. 

LaFleur didn't change the entire offense for White. White is a better NFL QB right now than Zack Wilson and that's OK. Wilson can grow up and be better.

Mental gymnastics.

100%.  Do people actually not realize that because White can execute and put them ahead of the chains, that it changes how you call the game?  It's legit, unreal, the lengths people go to when the obvious answer is obvious

Mike White is better than Zach Wilson and that's perfectly fine.  sh*t happens.  Who cares? 

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9 hours ago, adobolo2 said:

Mike white may not be the long term answer at QB for the Jets, but today proved the Zack Wilson is definitely not the future nor never should have been selected at number 2 overall.

To me White may not be a long term option but hopefully at least a competent back up Can’t make determination based on one albeit excellent game In regards to Zach after 5 games we as a fan base can’t make a judgment as to whether he is a bust or a franchise QB it’s just to early in his career. It’s clear he has the arm and physical talent he just needs to learn the mental aspect on how to be a NFL caliber QB. Some players just take a little longer to get that mental aspect down and some don’t ever get it  As I stated previously it’s just to early to make that determination Hopefully he learns sooner rather than later 

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1 minute ago, JiFapono said:

100%.  Do people actually not realize that because White can execute and put them ahead of the chains, that it changes how you call the game?  It's legit, unreal, the lengths people go to when the obvious answer is obvious

Mike White is better than Zach Wilson and that's perfectly fine.  sh*t happens.  Who cares? 

Exactly.  Of course the play calling is different on 3rd and 3 vs. 3rd and 14.   

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9 minutes ago, CSNY said:

To me White may not be a long term option but hopefully at least a competent back up Can’t make determination based on one albeit excellent game In regards to Zach after 5 games we as a fan base can’t make a judgment as to whether he is a bust or a franchise QB it’s just to early in his career. It’s clear he has the arm and physical talent he just needs to learn the mental aspect on how to be a NFL caliber QB. Some players just take a little longer to get that mental aspect down and some don’t ever get it  As I stated previously it’s just to early to make that determination Hopefully he learns sooner rather than later 

I have to admit I am biased against Wilson because I never wanted him drafted by the jets, I just didn't see what everyone else saw in him but so far this season everyone has been on lafleur's back because he hasn't been able to make it work for Wilson but give him a system QB like white yesterday and the offense worked. Can Wilson be a system QB for the jets? Personally I don't think so but if he sits and learns for an extended period it might be possible.

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1 hour ago, Barry McCockinner said:

What I find funny is that some of the same people who were unreasonably critical of Mike LaFluer while Zack Wilson was sucking at QB now do mental gymnastics to explain away the offense looking good with a different QB rather than just see the obvious improvement from the player at the QB position. Some of them even claim that LaFleur ran an entirely different offense yesterday as to further discredit LaFluer and not be critical of Wilson.

It's very simple and there's no need for these mental gymnastics. Wilson has been playing awful and ruining the flow of the offense. White played better and the offense flowed better. 

Until Wilson is ready to run a big boy offense or Mike White shows he isn't effective, White should be starting over him.

Unreasonably critical of LaFleur when you have your rookie QB struggling (NE seems to have a good system developing their less physically talented rookie QB) and going run, run pass every down and can’t score a point in the first half in 6 NFL games? But criticizing him is unfair? 😂😂😂 are you serious? 
 

Take off your green shades, they seem to be blinding you 

okay and now I’m doing mental gymnastics because I won’t crown Mike White after one game? And I guess the OC standing literally over the game had no effect on why the offense looked better either.
 

and Zach couldn’t possibly look that good in that same situation because Barry said so

I’m sorry 😞 😭

Oh and Mike white running a “big boy offense”? Another laughable take 
 

Go look at his passing chart and see his deepest completions ill wait … Praising a JAG QB for playing check down Charlie is typical Jet fandom though

But Christ, how much of a blind homer can one be? 

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15 minutes ago, oatmeal said:

Unreasonably critical of LaFleur when you have your rookie QB struggling (NE seems to have a good system developing their less physically talented rookie QB) and going run, run pass every down and can’t score a point in the first half in 6 NFL games? But criticizing him is unfair? 😂😂😂 are you serious? 
 

Take off your green shades, they seem to be blinding you 

okay and now I’m doing mental gymnastics because I won’t crown Mike White after one game? And I guess the OC standing literally over the game had no effect on why the offense looked better either.
 

and Zach couldn’t possibly look that good in that same situation because Barry said so

I’m sorry 😞 😭

Oh and Mike white running a “big boy offense”? Another laughable take 
 

Go look at his passing chart and see his deepest completions ill wait … Praising a JAG QB for playing check down Charlie is typical Jet fandom though

But Christ, how much of a blind homer can one be? 

It is possible to be critical of someone without being unreasonable. The narrative on here was that LaFleur was the main reason the offense sucked. It is now clear as day that was a false narrative and therefore unreasonably critical. It's hard to score points when your QB sucks at running the offense.

This thread is not about crowning Mike White, it's simply stating that Mike White is a better QB than Zack Wilson today. That is crystal clear and it's not a difficult thing to accomplish, obviously. Zack Wilson kind of sucks right now. Big boy offense, meaning NFL offense. Zack can't run one yet. White can.

blind homer? TF are you even talking about?

 

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Just now, Barry McCockinner said:

It is possible to be critical of someone without being unreasonable. The narrative on here was that LaFleur was the main reason the offense sucked. It is now clear as day that was a false narrative. 

This thread is not about crowning Mike White, it's simply stating that Mike White is a better QB than Zack Wilson today. That is crystal clear and it's not a difficult thing to accomplish, obviously.

blind homer? TF are you even talking about?

Blind homer Tf am I even talking about? Nonsense like this: “LaFleur was the main reason the offense sucked. It is now clear as day that was a false narrative.
 

He is the offensive coordinator responsible for Zachs development. NE has no problem developing a < physically talented Mac Jones with worst weapons on offense but for some reason you think criticizing him his unfair?

And also after ONE showing you are convinced rookie OC has arrived now too huh? 
 

You don’t want some consistency before you jump out the window? 😂🤦‍♂️

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Just now, oatmeal said:

Blind homer Tf am I even talking about? Nonsense like this: “LaFleur was the main reason the offense sucked. It is now clear as day that was a false narrative.
 

He is the offensive coordinator responsible for Zachs development. NE has no problem developing a < physically talented Mac Jones with worst weapons on offense but for some reason you think criticizing him his unfair?

And also after ONE showing you are convinced rookie OC has arrived now too huh? 
 

You don’t want some consistency before you jump out the window? 😂🤦‍♂️

Well, I was never convinced that LaFleur was the main reason the offense struggled so bad. That was mainly because I watched Zack Wilson consistently hold the ball too long, throw dirt missiles at the feet of open receivers and throw into double and triple coverage. The offense ran much smoother with a different QB who didn't do those things. Seems like we've identified the main culprit of the inept offense here, haven't we?

Did I make a claim the "rookie OC has arrived" or did you make up a strawman?

There is a wide spectrum between inept and arrived. I think you already know this.

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I can tell alot dont watch the press conferences. White said LaFlour was dialing up deep stuff. Zach would of thrown those, mostly for picks. White had the presence to take check downs or open guys in the flat. 

The problem is Wilson makes bad decisions. Not that the coach called a different game. 

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12 hours ago, JTJet said:

95% of the takes here are absurd. 

The difference between today and the previous games is night and day, 

- Slapnuts Lafleur was up in the booth and not down on the field 40 yards off line of scrimmage, which he should have been doing from week 1. 

- We actually elected to receive to start the game and not immediately go down 7 points, putting the team behind instantly. 

- The personel groupings were wildly different than the first 6 games. 

- Play calling was wildly different than the first 6 games. We weren't running nowhere on fiirst and second downs, creating third and long at the beginning of every drive. 

I want to see Zach get a chance to play a game with Lafleur up in the box, calling THOSE plays with THOSE groupings before I jump on the asinine bandwagon of trading Zach away for a box of donuts.

This is simply not true.

  • There's very little difference to the gameplan, if any, whether down 7 or not. And that hasn't always been the case. We've had the ball at 0-0 a few times before today. 
  • We had a lot of the same sets, a lot of the same plays available. So often this season we've seen Zach pass up or miss on simple completions. He needs to learn to take what the defence gives him like White did yesterday. He looks to do much and gets spooked when he has to progress through the reads. White was extremely poised. 
  • I've watched a fair bit of the all 22 tapes this year and quite often we do have guys running open. We had them yesterday and we've had them with Zach. It's always been more on execution than scheme. I think the big difference from yesterday was that our usual liabilities (Tight Ends, GVR) actually played pretty well. I doubt that's sustainable under Wilson or White. 
  • We still ran a fair bit on first down yesterday, just did it better. We came out passing at home to the Pats until Zach threw more INT's than completions. 

Lafleur should never have been on the touchline but according to Saleh that was Zach's preference. He shouldn't be making that decision regardless. 

Wilson has a lot of improvement to make and has really struggled to adapt to the league. The idea that the problems where everywhere else until yesterday is just absurd. White played better than he ever has and if he keeps playing better he should play until they can compete in camp next year. 

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3 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Well, I was never convinced that LaFleur was the main reason the offense struggled so bad. That was mainly because I watched Zack Wilson consistently hold the ball too long, throw dirt missiles at the feet of open receivers and throw into double and triple coverage. The offense ran much smoother with a different QB who didn't do those things. Seems like we've identified the main culprit of the inept offense here, haven't we?

Did I make a claim the "rookie OC has arrived" or did you make up a strawman?

There is a wide spectrum between inept and arrived. I think you already know this.

 

Barry: “Did I make a claim the "rookie OC has arrived" or did you make up a strawman?”

Also Barry: “The narrative on here was that LaFleur was the main reason the offense sucked. It is now clear as day that was a false narrative. ”

 

Okay so after one showing it is clear as day to Barry, LaFleur wasn't the main reason the offense sucked and he hasn’t arrived yet!
 

Got it 👍

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9 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I truly wonder what Zach Wilson is thinking about all this right now.  It has to be at least a little unnerving that his HC left the door open for Mike White to be the long-term answer.

I doubt he cares. He'll still get a chance next season to at least compete for the starting position. He was clearly pretty overwhelmed and now has a chance to regroup and improve. Should have been the case from the start. These guys don't get to this level by constantly doubting themselves, he'll believe that he's better than White. 

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4 minutes ago, oatmeal said:

 

Barry: “Did I make a claim the "rookie OC has arrived" or did you make up a strawman?”

Also Barry: “The narrative on here was that LaFleur was the main reason the offense sucked. It is now clear as day that was a false narrative. ”

 

Okay so after one showing it is clear as day to Barry, LaFleur wasn't the main reason the offense sucked and he hasn’t arrived yet!
 

Got it 👍

 

blocked

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2 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

What I find funny is that some of the same people who were unreasonably critical of Mike LaFluer while Zack Wilson was sucking at QB now do mental gymnastics to explain away the offense looking good with a different QB rather than just see the obvious improvement from the player at the QB position. Some of them even claim that LaFleur ran an entirely different offense yesterday as to further discredit LaFluer and not be critical of Wilson.

It's very simple and there's no need for these mental gymnastics. Wilson has been playing awful and ruining the flow of the offense. White played better and the offense flowed better. 

Until Wilson is ready to run a big boy offense or Mike White shows he isn't effective, White should be starting over him.

I agree that the difference was White. I am encouraged, though, because I think if White can make the offense hum so well that Zach should be able to eventually also. What White did, check down, make the right reads, take what the defense allowed, etc, can probably be learned. The talent that Zach has, however, can’t be taught and can be used to make plays when the system breaks down or when a special throw is needed. Hopefully by watching the offense being run so efficiently Zach will move in the right direction and be ready when he gets his next opportunity, either in a few games or next training camp. I think it’s likely he’ll eventually win back the job at some point. If Mike White turns into Tom Brady or Kurt Warner then that’s ok too. 

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