Does Mike White have a realistic chance of keeping the starting job when Zach Wilson returns?

[Augustiniak]

6 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

The most likely scenario is that he is average or worse and we lose to the Colts and Bills, making the decision easy. 

White needs to make it so that his "bad game" is before Wilson is ready to play. People will jump ship on White just as quickly as they have embraced him. 

No chance the Jets will bench White if he continues to play well, IMO. There is no rush to play Wilson. 

i think it's natural to assume he crashes back to earth this thursday but it would be a blast if he lit the colts up on national tv.

[Sperm Edwards]

20 hours ago, RSJ said:

 

But the rookie deal is 4 year. Year 5 is also sort of reasonable. If they sit for even two seasons you still have two years to see if they are any good. I just dont see a ton of success with starting rookies from day one. It started with Wentz and Goff - but since them Herbert has really been the only other one to play well in year one. I guess you could also say Mac Jones is playing well. It seems more rare that they play well in year one.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

There aren't that many success stories in general, no matter when they first saw action. How many truly worthwhile talents are there, whom any team would even consider starting as rookies in the first place? Not many.

But there are more than you’re making it out to be. Goff & Wentz aren't nearly the only ones who were thrown out there early & soon saw early success. There were many more - drafted recently - who were either good as rookies, or for whom that seemed like worthwhile experience given the great results soon afterward.

- Dak, Watson, Jackson, Mayfield, Herbert, and Minshew we're good/productive rookie QBs. And yes I’d add Jones as well, since his ceiling was expected to be lower in the first place. So being a dink & dunk dumpoff king is no big knock (for a while that’s what Brady was labeled as well; if he’s getting rings while doing so, that hardly matters). 

- Murray & Allen seem to have benefitted from the experience learning from mistakes & getting used to NFL defenses’ schemes and speed. It’s a guess they’d have been just as good just as quickly if put on a sideline for 1-2 seasons instead of being afforded the opportunity to learn from live mistakes (but in fairness, maybe they’d have gotten good/better even faster if holding a clipboard for 8-16 games; we’ll never know). 

- Pretty recently before 2016’s draft were Wilson, Tannehill, RGIII, Luck, Carr -- all thrown in as rookies right away without disastrous results (RGIII’s injury aside, since that wasn’t specifically related to him being a rookie). Going back a little further you could add Dalton, Ryan, Flacco, Cam, and more. 

For such a short span of time honestly that's a lot of QBs who were instant starters and were already good/productive as rookies, or who became good/great soon afterward, or both. Further consider, with that, the number of QB jobs that aren't even up for grabs in the first place in a league that only has 32 as it is, and veterans playing well into their mid/late 30s (or even 40s now).

That said, yes some would surely do better to sit. With Wilson getting injured it we don’t truly know what would’ve happened if he’d played straight through, but he was so sucky and uncharacteristically inaccurate - compared to his BYU film - that it’s a much easier argument to say he should’ve sat.

[Sonny Werblin]

10 hours ago, Hex said:

I don't know, I just feel like there was a reason he didn't play for the first 3 years of his career. I could be totally wrong too. He definitely seems to have good leadership skills though.

This. The coaches that have watched him play in practice were so confident in his ability to start 3 or 4 games while Zac recovers from his injury that they had the front office trade for Joe Flacco.

[slimjasi]

6 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

i think it's natural to assume he crashes back to earth this thursday but it would be a blast if he lit the colts up on national tv.

I want it more than anything. We deserve to have a franchise QB come out of nowhere. We really do. And we are due . .  right? 

[Sonny Werblin]

3 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

There aren't that many success stories in general, no matter when they first saw action. How many truly worthwhile talents are there, whom any team would even consider starting as rookies in the first place? Not many.

But there are more than you’re making it out to be. Goff & Wentz aren't nearly the only ones who were thrown out there early & soon saw early success. There were many more - drafted recently - who were either good as rookies, or for whom that seemed like worthwhile experience given the great results soon afterward.

- Dak, Watson, Jackson, Mayfield, Herbert, and Minshew we're good/productive rookie QBs. And yes I’d add Jones as well, since his ceiling was expected to be lower in the first place. So being a dink & dunk dumpoff king is no big knock (for a while that’s what Brady was labeled as well; if he’s getting rings while doing so, that hardly matters). 

- Murray & Allen seem to have benefitted from the experience learning from mistakes & getting used to NFL defenses’ schemes and speed. It’s a guess they’d have been just as good just as quickly if put on a sideline for 1-2 seasons instead of being afforded the opportunity to learn from live mistakes (but in fairness, maybe they’d have gotten good/better even faster if holding a clipboard for 8-16 games; we’ll never know). 

- Pretty recently before 2016’s draft were Wilson, Tannehill, RGIII, Luck, Carr -- all thrown in as rookies right away without disastrous results (RGIII’s injury aside, since that wasn’t specifically related to him being a rookie). Going back a little further you could add Dalton, Ryan, Flacco, Cam, and more. 

For such a short span of time honestly that's a lot of QBs who were instant starters and were already good/productive as rookies, or who became good/great soon afterward, or both. Further consider, with that, the number of QB jobs that aren't even up for grabs in the first place in a league that only has 32 as it is, and veterans playing well into their mid/late 30s (or even 40s now).

That said, yes some would surely do better to sit. With Wilson getting injured it we don’t truly know what would’ve happened if he’d played straight through, but he was so sucky and uncharacteristically inaccurate - compared to his BYU film - that it’s a much easier argument to say he should’ve sat.

Not many rookie QBs have success when playing for a rookie HC, with a new offense on a bad team. 

[#27TheDominator]

23 hours ago, NIGHT STALKER said:

Steal?  We will see going forward as one game doesn't make or break a player...especially the QB position.  He has to EARN it.

Did Wilson EARN it? 

[kevinc855]

It would be such an amazing story line for us to find our franchise QB like this. 20 years after the Bledsoe hit, the Pats return the favor and our late round backup lights it up. 

Maybe he won't, but man it make a hell of story. 

[#27TheDominator]

Does anybody know how they calculate that air yards stat?   They are probably taking negative yards for the Jet sweep forward pitches and the backwards throws on the trick plays.  I know he was dinking and dunking, but he went downfield a decent amount too.

[slimjasi]

1 minute ago, kevinc855 said:

It would be such an amazing story line for us to find our franchise QB like this. 20 years after the Bledsoe hit, the Pats return the favor and our late round backup lights it up. 

Maybe he won't, but man it make a hell of story. 

It would be amazing. I'm just trying to not get too excited too early. 

Remember the perception about Chad - who basically had a storybook 2002 (Not just one great game) . A lot of Jets fans thought he was going to be a HOFer after that season. We all know what happened - he was a good QB when healthy, but his body broke down and he had some obvious limitations. 

We will start to learn a little more on Thursday night

[undertow]

Best thing that could happen to this franchise is White turns out to be the real deal and never play WIlson again so he doesn't expose himself any further and maybe we can still get a 1st back for him.  3 first round picks next year and Mike White baaaby!

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, Sonny Werblin said:

Not many rookie QBs have success when playing for a rookie HC, with a new offense on a bad team. 

Hey I totally agree it was a perfect storm of disadvantages. I outlined them weeks ago, but yeah it was something like:

• rookie HC
• rookie OC calling plays for the first time, and doing so from the sideline which is hard enough for experienced coordinators; for newbies they’re better off with a birds-eye view and spreading out his laptop and all his papers & stuff
• new offensive being installed this summer
• new blocking scheme being installed this summer (though meh, since every team does a heavy amount of zone blocking; even if it’s their primary, no teams man-block 95% of their snaps)
• OL with less familiarity with each other, starting week 1 (rookie LG who’d missed weeks of camp, competition at RG all summer, competition at RT all summer, and then the LT gets injured almost immediately)
• 3 new starting WRs rostered: Davis, Cole, Moore
• 1 returning WR barely getting any work in this summer in Mims, which then progressed into getting benched for 2 months
• Crowder & Cole starting the season by missing games with injuries
• traded the starting TE after the summer was over
• rookie QB who didn’t face much stiff competition in college, who was afforded the opportunity to succeed in spite of some bad habits formed at BYU (running backwards, thinking he’s going to juke everyone, the stare-downs, the forced throws despite tight coverage)
• All summer only practicing against a similarly-inexperienced DC, who was coaching a lot of lowly-drafted and undrafted rookies & 2nd-year guys in the secondary (not exactly like taking practice snaps against this franchise’s 2009 defense).
• Tragically losing his QBC before the summer camp got started just made it all that much worse. 
• No QB2 with starting experience on the sideline (closely related to the OC calling plays from the booth, in addition to keeping Wilson on the field no matter what until he’s injured)

We can keep moving the goalposts in terms of adding to the conditions, but c’mon that’s a lot of cards stacked against the idea of putting him out there right away.

[Sperm Edwards]

11 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Does anybody know how they calculate that air yards stat?   They are probably taking negative yards for the Jet sweep forward pitches and the backwards throws on the trick plays.  I know he was dinking and dunking, but he went downfield a decent amount too.

I think it’s just yards forward from the LOS, as part of the same calculation of yards and YAC and doing simple subtraction. If it’s a WR sideline screen that’s 1 yard of air even though the ball may have traveled >10 yards; or if a QB drops back 10 yards and then throws a pass caught 10 yards past the LOS it’s considered 10 yards of air not 20 yards. Maybe there’s a bit added if a WR catches the ball 5 yards deep in the EZ instead of counting that as being caught 1 inch past the goalline.

I’m not at all sure, but I just think so because otherwise those stats would take such an excruciatingly long time to calculate for each pass play that they wouldn’t even bother.

[Smashmouth]

18 hours ago, Larz said:

Sword fight says yes

 

Oh baby give it too me harder

[RoadFan]

On 11/1/2021 at 6:02 AM, Biggs said:

Matt Robinson destroyed his thumb while thumb wrestling with a team mate.  He didn’t tell the HC and proceeded to suck.  He absolutely deserved to lose his job.  
 

Agree with the rest.  We need to find out if we had Brady or Warner sitting on the bench or we just played a team who was ripe for the slaughter and didn’t have any game tape and just pissed themselves.  

Honestly, I am too young to know the MR and RT situation.  My Dad told me the fans loved Robinson, were mixed at best over Todd… and that Idzik’s father was mainly the guy who kept Robinson from playing.

I will ask him about the thumb…

[Smashmouth]

26 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Hey I totally agree it was a perfect storm of disadvantages. I outlined them weeks ago, but yeah it was something like:

• rookie HC
• rookie OC calling plays for the first time, and doing so from the sideline which is hard enough for experienced coordinators; for newbies they’re better off with a birds-eye view and spreading out his laptop and all his papers & stuff
• new offensive being installed this summer
• new blocking scheme being installed this summer (though meh, since every team does a heavy amount of zone blocking; even if it’s their primary, no teams man-block 95% of their snaps)
• OL with less familiarity with each other, starting week 1 (rookie LG who’d missed weeks of camp, competition at RG all summer, competition at RT all summer, and then the LT gets injured almost immediately)
• 3 new starting WRs rostered: Davis, Cole, Moore
• 1 returning WR barely getting any work in this summer in Mims, which then progressed into getting benched for 2 months
• Crowder & Cole starting the season by missing games with injuries
• traded the starting TE after the summer was over
• rookie QB who didn’t face much stiff competition in college, who was afforded the opportunity to succeed in spite of some bad habits formed at BYU (running backwards, thinking he’s going to juke everyone, the stare-downs, the forced throws despite tight coverage)
• All summer only practicing against a similarly-inexperienced DC, who was coaching a lot of lowly-drafted and undrafted rookies & 2nd-year guys in the secondary (not exactly like taking practice snaps against this franchise’s 2009 defense).
• Tragically losing his QBC before the summer camp got started just made it all that much worse. 
• No QB2 with starting experience on the sideline (closely related to the OC calling plays from the booth, in addition to keeping Wilson on the field no matter what until he’s injured)

We can keep moving the goalposts in terms of adding to the conditions, but c’mon that’s a lot of cards stacked against the idea of putting him out there right away.

To simplify this I said in the beginning of the year it would take 8 weeks due to all the items you mentioned above. That being said I don't think this team is as devoid of talent as some people say due to what amounts to terrible execution from the QB play. The reason we scored on 5 consecutive drives and finally had a comeback win of 11 points is because we had a competent QB playing the position. If Mike White started the season all of these things might have gotten better much quicker and our record very well might be at 500 or above. Biggest problem was the last 3 weeks when our defense was so decimated with Injuries we could have started suiting up the fans at LB and yet not one analyst bothered to mention that when NE dumped 50 on us because they probably didn't even know.

[Paradis]

On 10/31/2021 at 6:52 PM, T0mShane said:

The Jets have the Colts and the Bills upcoming. If White wins them both or at least keeps the Jets competitive in these games, do you shoehorn Zach Wilson back in as the starter when he’s healthy?

If white wins the next two games and puts the Jets at 4-5, you lose the lockerroom if you go back to Wilson... as you should. And WIlson shouldn't expect to get the job back in 2021 unless Mike is hurt or implodes.

He's going to have to win it next year in camp. and If he's truly the #2 overall he should have no problem. No more fcking gift wrapped seat at the table.

[Tranquilo]

Doesn't matter if the Jets win or lose the next two games, if Mike White plays well, he should keep playing. I'm a little worried that this game could have been an anomaly because he got so many yards from the RBs and his ADOT was like 3.7. But on the other hand he was throwing some heat and made some nice throws so hopefully he continues to grow because he won't get the same amount of chances as Wilson. Like Saleh said, it's day to day. 

[Smashmouth]

3 minutes ago, Paradis said:

If white wins the next two games and puts the Jets at 4-5, you lose the lockerroom if you go back to Wilson... as you should. And WIlson shouldn't expect to get the job back in 2021 unless Mike is hurt or implodes.

He's going to have to win it next year in camp. and If he's truly the #2 overall he should have no problem. No more fcking gift wrapped seat at the table.

If White continues to play good and the Jets win as a result White goes into next season as the starter and there should be no QB competition . Zach at that stage will need to get used to life as the back up and be ready to go in if there is an injury or White just Implodes and I don't see that happening

[The Crusher]

Right now Mike a white is playing better than Patrick Mahomes.

[THE BARON]

White is a back-up if that.  He is not Tom Brady or Kurt Warner.  He had one good game throwing short passes against a team that was asleep. 

Wilson is not prepared for the NFL either way and needs to sit and learn, but White is not a starting NFL QB.

This will become apparent very soon.

[Smashmouth]

1 minute ago, Tranquilo said:

Doesn't matter if the Jets win or lose the next two games, if Mike White plays well, he should keep playing. I'm a little worried that this game could have been an anomaly because he got so many yards from the RBs and his ADOT was like 3.7. But on the other hand he was throwing some heat and made some nice throws so hopefully he continues to grow because he won't get the same amount of chances as Wilson. Like Saleh said, it's day to day. 

He converted some nice 3rd and longs and also moved the chains . If teams want to play us close and take away the short game all that happens is the throws go into a tighter window. Also White proved in pre season he can get good zip on the intermediate passes and in this game that exactly what the Bengals were trying to take away. Credit to White for realizing this and taking what they gave him. Brady made a career of this and who's to say Mr. White has not taken a big interest on how the G.O.A.T handled the position for 20 years.  

[NIGHT STALKER]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

Did Wilson EARN it? 

A player who is picked high in the draft earns a spot.  Hence, that is the reason why you rarely see a number one pick not making the team like you see players picked lower in the draft.  So, according to JD and the staff, they wanted to start Wilson instead of him sitting on the bench for a year or so.  Did he EARN it?  For their standards, YEAH!  Did Trevor Lawrence earn it?  He's not in the microscope like Wilson, and he isn't exactly lighting it up either.

[Paradis]

22 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

If White continues to play good and the Jets win as a result White goes into next season as the starter and there should be no QB competition . Zach at that stage will need to get used to life as the back up and be ready to go in if there is an injury or White just Implodes and I don't see that happening

Ehh, White would have to play lights out, pretty much as good or better as he did on Sunday to be "QB1" in TC... That's unlikely.

But here's why it's a real thing... If White plays like he did vs CIN--

• IND -- W
• BUF -- ?
• MIA -- W
• HOU -- W
• PHI -- W
• NOS -- W 
• MIA -- W
• JAX -- W
• TB -- ?
• BUF -- ?

You're looking at a Marilyn Chambers schedule. White maybe lands at 9 or 10 wins there.

*Offseason-drama has entered the chatroom*

[Joe W. Namath]

19 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Ehh, White would have to play lights out, pretty much as good or better as he did on Sunday to be "QB1" in TC... That's unlikely.

But here's why it's a real thing... If White plays like he did vs CIN--

• IND -- W
• BUF -- ?
• MIA -- W
• HOU -- W
• PHI -- W
• NOS -- W 
• MIA -- W
• JAX -- W
• TB -- ?
• BUF -- ?

You're looking at a Marilyn Chambers schedule. White maybe lands at 9 or 10 wins there.

*Offseason-drama has entered the chatroom*

We saw this happen on 2002.  Chad Pennington came in a few games into the season.  The Jets started 2-5.  Ended up winning the division and a playoff game.

Is this probable?  No.  But our own team did this 20 years ago.  And if you think about it, Mike White is very Chad Penningtonesque.

[ZachEY]

2 hours ago, slimjasi said:

Unless this really does become the Mike White show long term, you can definitely sit him this year and start him opening day next year. That gives you plenty of time to evaluate him. 

Agreed for one year.  I was talking about more than that.

[Jet Nut]

On 11/1/2021 at 9:25 AM, The Crusher said:

Why not? It’s fine fit now. Plenty of time to hate them after TNF if this team regresses back to their mean again. Yet, if we want to start a thread on why Saleh didn’t challenge that no catch at the one or WTF took so long to put LaFleur in the booth? We can keep the blame hot just in case we need it after Thursday, 

Actually the only real question is why did they change the offense to make it QB friendly for White and not Zach?  Why did they add trick plays for White?  Why was the offense so deep ball dependent with ZW?

 Had nothing to do with where LaFleur say his ass during the game.  

White will get the 4 or so games while ZW heals and then ZW will go back to the starting position

[The Crusher]

1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

Actually the only real question is why did they change the offense to make it QB friendly for White and not Zach?  Why did they add trick plays for White?  Why was the offense so deep ball dependent with ZW?

 Had nothing to do with where LaFleur say his ass during the game.  

White will get the 4 or so games while ZW heals and then ZW will go back to the starting position

Not sure they changed anything. Seems both QB's were given deep and dump off options and each chose differently. Trick Plays? Mike White showed in his short step in duty with Pats he could almost smoothly run the offense. That plus YOLO from LaFleur made them put some razzle dazzle in once White showed he was in command. Zach was never in command of the offense, was struggling on dump offs, been careless to give him trick plays. Zach is still learning to be an NFL QB, plenty of time. Mike White is likely as good as he's gonna get. 

[Jet Nut]

12 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Not sure they changed anything. Seems both QB's were given deep and dump off options and each chose differently. Trick Plays? Mike White showed in his short step in duty with Pats he could almost smoothly run the offense. That plus YOLO from LaFleur made them put some razzle dazzle in once White showed he was in command. Zach was never in command of the offense, was struggling on dump offs, been careless to give him trick plays. Zach is still learning to be an NFL QB, plenty of time. Mike White is likely as good as he's gonna get. 

The offense was completely changed

[Wit]

3 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

The offense was completely changed

They knew Zach could make deep passes so they didn’t protect him with the easy, dumbed down playbook. Stupid move. 

[Bleedin Green]

2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

The offense was completely changed

You are completely wrong.

You and Zach Wilson might very well be the only two people in the known universe who haven't seen the endless stream of underneath routes being run by Jets receivers all season long.  Although odds are much more likely that Zach actually saw them, but simply opted not to go to them.

[Jet Nut]

11 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

You are completely wrong.

You and Zach Wilson might very well be the only two people in the known universe who haven't seen the endless stream of underneath routes being run by Jets receivers all season long.  Although odds are much more likely that Zach actually saw them, but simply opted not to go to them.

Ok. I have no idea what game you watched on Sunday vs the rest of the year

[Jet Nut]

20 minutes ago, Wit said:

They knew Zach could make deep passes so they didn’t protect him with the easy, dumbed down playbook. Stupid move. 

They relied too much on his arm and the deep ball.  
Was totally obvious to all

[doitny]

On 11/2/2021 at 12:09 AM, Hex said:

I don't know, I just feel like there was a reason he didn't play for the first 3 years of his career. I could be totally wrong too. He definitely seems to have good leadership skills though.

different CS. he had Gase for 2 years. they wouldnt let him off the PS except for a game here or there.

Gase started Luke Faulk over him for 2/1/2 games. and signed Foles to back him up for one.

[Jetscode1]

FWIW.  Here is an old draft profile.  MW looked good but it still is a small sample size and we know that defenses will find his weakness and he'll have to adjust.  I still love the fact ZW has some competition and that MW has another start to show what he learned.  Is he the next Romo, who knows?  He's better than what we've seen lately and I'm excited again to watch.  

Quote

Mike White   QB   Western Kentucky TALENT ROUND 3

STRENGTHS Mike might be the most complete quarterback in this draft. He has the size and solid arm talent and strength but what he brings to the position is the mental and football intelligence that most quarterbacks are still learning when coming out of college into the pros. He can play in any style of offense, under center or out of the spread. He shows good accuracy from the pocket and his leadership skills and management of the game plan is excellent. Mike can help a team right away as a back up and at some point in his career if given the chance to get on the field he could be a starting quarterback. CONCERNS Mike shows the ability to over think himself and miss on the plays that require the quarterback not to miss on. He is stout in the pocket but has to learn to manipulate the pocket and extend passing plays to give him a chance to reset and make throws that count at the most important times of a game. BOTTOM LINE Mike does not make the talent around him better…the talent around him makes him better. He is a competent quarterback and with the right coach and in the right system with good talent around him Mike can be a starting quarterback in the NFL. For the purposes of this draft Mike should be selected with the thought process that anything is possible and selecting him and giving him time to develop better “instincts” of his position just might be the answer to him becoming a quarterback similar to a Tony Romo. Mike might not have as strong an arm as Tony had but their style of playing the game and “over thinking” is similar. Tony had a problem committing to the play that was called and was always thinking right up to the snap that there is a better play to call. Mike seems to struggle committing to the play call and at other times being stubborn and too committed to the play call. Confused? Basically what I’m saying is that Mike things too much and it affects his play on the field and until he can let his talent direct the play instead of his thinking he will struggle to make plays at the most important times of a game. There is nothing wrong with Mike’s overall talent, he does have to work on his deep ball and he might struggle in the red zone fitting the ball into those tight zones but the truth is Mike’s biggest issue to overcome is “over thinking” every process on the field, on every play from the play call, to his mechanics, to what spot to throw to and remembering to look off defensive backs and on, and on, and on, and on. Now most of you are going to think, isn’t this what every quarterback does at the line of scrimmage? That’s true every quarterback goes through this type of thinking but the difference is, the good one’s do it without even knowing they do it, the quarterbacks who don’t make it… do it methodically thinking and check off each box in their heads as they go through the process. With repetition and a stable coaching staff and staying in the same offensive system for a few years, Mike could easily become a starting quarterback in the NFL that’s if he can eliminate the “over thinking” but that’s the hitch, some players never do, they never turn the page and stop over thinking. Drew Boylhart   FEB.2018

 

[Jet Nut]

23 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

You are completely wrong.

You and Zach Wilson might very well be the only two people in the known universe who haven't seen the endless stream of underneath routes being run by Jets receivers all season long.  Although odds are much more likely that Zach actually saw them, but simply opted not to go to them.

Actually I’m not the one who’s wrong here.