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Did AVT make the Jets best play on offense today?


jetstream23
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Looking at that play multiple times, I'm confused on what was supposed to be happening.

McGovern and Van Roten double team the guy that's lined over over Van Roten. That leaves three rushers for AVT and Fant ... why would you do that? Great play by AVT, but surely that wasn't by design?? But then, AVT's initial block is the guy to his inside, leaving two rushers outside, with only Fant there to block ... so maybe it was?

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11 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

Don't you get it?  GVR is supposed to block 1/2 a guy on every play.  AVT has to block like 3 guys. lol

 

Looking at it again, the Bengals had 6 guys on the line initially, but the man that would have been GVR's drops back as he sees the play develop. But overall the blocking is still going right by design, even though the play looks like it was always intended to go left.

Unless Mims was the primary target but the dropping LB took that away ... in which case, even more kudos to White for reading that so quickly and finding his second read.

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Our blocking schemes are so bad. Look at McGovern and GVR double teaming a guy while AVT is left with two. Happens all the f*cking time. 

I get they're showing 6 rushers vs 5 blockers but it just happens way often even when that's not the case. You watch other NFL teams, the good ones especially and they're rarely so inefficient. 

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43 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

They’re zone blocking. Everyone moves in unison to block an area, not to engage a specific man. Everyone except Fant went to the right.

The differnce here (and what makes top players good rather than mindless robots) is that AVT sees that whether that’s his zone area or not this play is about to end in disaster. He doesn’t just narrowmindedly say to himself, in that split-second time, “Hey that’s not where I’m supposed to be so it’s not my fault if my QB gets his head taken off” a la GVR (or even McGovern and his ball).

Also consider, if AVT doesn’t engage the other rusher then his precious PFF grade is unaffected (i.e. he didn’t get “beat” because he was blocking someone else who didn’t get through; meanwhile the QB gets sacked #mcgovernsball).

What this was here was a rookie improvising on the fly. Unexpected and impressive at this stage. That he did so with such effect - that defender going to the ground after AVT’s shove - makes the play that much better still.

To your complaint (and others’ too), no one “designs” 5 linemen to engage 6 pass rushers before they all line up. It’s an empty backfield and the D showed 6 pass rushers at the line. At that point, since the QB’s helmet speaker is already shut off, there’s nothing for LaFleur to communicate (he can’t call a TO from up there). So you could argue the breakdown here is either McGovern’s fault (doesn’t he make the line calls?) or White’s fault. One of them has to see that they’ve got 5 on 6 with an empty backfield before the ball gets snapped.

While we all like the result here, more often than not that late shove to the left by AVT doesn’t knock the rusher to the ground, in which case White is still either sacked or the pass is batted down or hurried to cause him to get flushed out to the right or throw it away a half-second earlier…or whatever else could’ve happened that wouldn’t result in a TD pass to White’s left. 

This is what I wondered - is it up to McGovern or White to change the protection? Or is it a situation where you just have to say "get the ball out quick one way or the other"? Lots of moving parts and very little time to respond.

It makes what AVT did all that more impressive, in my view. First he anticipated it, second he decided to do something about it (like you said, he could just block "his guy" and hope for the best), and third he had the physical talent to delay one guy and unbalance the second.

I also tried to imagine how Zach would have played that - he'd likely have rolled right and looked for someone to get open rather than getting the ball out that quick. Great read by Mike to see it and get the ball out before the D could get to him. Let's hope he buys AVT a beer for the blocking. ;-) 

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3 minutes ago, johnnyjet said:

Van Rotten sucks. He’s gone next year. 

Agreed, but not because of that play.

His job was to zone block to the right in unison with the guys to his left & right; not to improvise and break the chain in a called play before it happened.

AVT made a great play, but he was also the only one in a position to make it. GVR is looking at his assignment, not an inside rusher to the left of two linemen who are already to his left. Once the ball is snapped and he’s already got his momentum moving forward & to the right, here isn’t a thing van Roten (or anyone playing RG in his place) would’ve done there to help with the jailbreaking rusher AVT took care of.

The only thing left for him to do, at that point, was assist either McGovern or Moses, and the former is the only decision that made any sense with the edge rusher already to Moses’s right. 

And yes, they still need to upgrade from him next year.

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5 minutes ago, jamesr said:

This is what I wondered - is it up to McGovern or White to change the protection? Or is it a situation where you just have to say "get the ball out quick one way or the other"? Lots of moving parts and very little time to respond.

It makes what AVT did all that more impressive, in my view. First he anticipated it, second he decided to do something about it (like you said, he could just block "his guy" and hope for the best), and third he had the physical talent to delay one guy and unbalance the second.

I also tried to imagine how Zach would have played that - he'd likely have rolled right and looked for someone to get open rather than getting the ball out that quick. Great read by Mike to see it and get the ball out before the D could get to him. Let's hope he buys AVT a beer for the blocking. ;-) 

It’s better to be lucky than good (or right, on paper).

Usually a half-shove isn’t enough to have that kind of impact, and the inside rusher still has his ears pinned back coming for the QB. In that case, White maybe wouldn’t have had enough time to make that throw, and perhaps rolling to the right is playing the percentages. 

Whatever; I’m happier with this outcome, however it happened. :) 

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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

They’re zone blocking. Everyone moves in unison to block an area, not to engage a specific man. Everyone except Fant went to the right.

The differnce here (and what makes top players good rather than mindless robots) is that AVT sees that whether that’s his zone area or not this play is about to end in disaster. He doesn’t just narrowmindedly say to himself, in that split-second time, “Hey that’s not where I’m supposed to be so it’s not my fault if my QB gets his head taken off” a la GVR (or even McGovern and his ball).

Also consider, if AVT doesn’t engage the other rusher then his precious PFF grade is unaffected (i.e. he didn’t get “beat” because he was blocking someone else who didn’t get through; meanwhile the QB gets sacked #mcgovernsball).

What this was here was a rookie improvising on the fly. Unexpected and impressive at this stage. That he did so with such effect - that defender going to the ground after AVT’s shove - makes the play that much better still.

To your complaint (and others’ too), no one “designs” 5 linemen to engage 6 pass rushers before they all line up. It’s an empty backfield and the D showed 6 pass rushers at the line. At that point, since the QB’s helmet speaker is already shut off, there’s nothing for LaFleur to communicate (he can’t call a TO from up there). So you could argue the breakdown here is either McGovern’s fault (doesn’t he make the line calls?) or White’s fault. One of them has to see that they’ve got 5 on 6 with an empty backfield before the ball gets snapped.

While we all like the result here, more often than not that late shove to the left by AVT doesn’t knock the rusher to the ground, in which case White is still either sacked or the pass is batted down or hurried to cause him to get flushed out to the right or throw it away a half-second earlier…or whatever else could’ve happened that wouldn’t result in a TD pass to White’s left. 

One of the rare educational posts on this site.  

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3 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

Our blocking schemes are so bad. Look at McGovern and GVR double teaming a guy while AVT is left with two. Happens all the f*cking time. 

I get they're showing 6 rushers vs 5 blockers but it just happens way often even when that's not the case. You watch other NFL teams, the good ones especially and they're rarely so inefficient. 

In defense of the scheme maybe the design is for McG and VR to block one guy together, because neither is capable of blocking one guy alone.

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17 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

In defense of the scheme maybe the design is for McG and VR to block one guy together, because neither is capable of blocking one guy alone.

After I watched the play a few times I saw that the guy who GVR would have been blocking (or the guy in his zone) drops off rather than rushing, leaving no-one to block. So GVR helps out with McGovern's man rather than just blocking air.

I guess it's just one of those things, they line up 6 and drop 1, but you don't know pre-snap who - if anyone - is going to drop. If the blocking had gone left instead or right, maybe the other guy drops and you have a free rusher from the RG spot rather than LG.

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1 hour ago, Sonny Werblin said:

In defense of the scheme maybe the design is for McG and VR to block one guy together, because neither is capable of blocking one guy alone.

An OL might only be as good as its weakest link, and that is Van Roten.  Maybe McGovern is regularly helping him out, thus leaving a potential gap on each pass play for the D to exploit. 

I still hope the Jets finally draft a young stud at C next year, and move McGovern to RG.

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24 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

This guy is really really  good.  I hope Douglas sees this and has the balls to use more high picks next year to add to the oline.

If Becton can ever get healthy and start playing to potential we are going to have a great left side

That's my dream, have a left side like Seattle with Walter Jones and Steve Hutchinson

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5 hours ago, Pichula said:

Horrendous blocking scheme m. Just block the guy in front of you. Can someone with more knowledge of the game explain the benefit of the this nonsense?

Without getting deep into scheme specifics - which others can do better than I - the idea is to create a wall of blockers in an area where they're needed. Think of a historical-themed movie where they show Viking or Roman warriors from ~1000 yrs ago, where they create a wall of shields. If each shield-holder was responsible for fending off the arrow of one assigned archer, it's not as effective as all of them working as one long shield, as one "man blocking" shield-holder who often whiffs is a considerable weakness.

Probably not the greatest analogy, because an OL only has 5 people on it and there probably weren't the same number of archers and shield-holders on opposite sides, but that's the idea. Every lineman shouldn't need to be elite individually; smarts and continuity may prove to be more valuable than which splashy OL FA signing a team locks down.

A lesser talented (or if banged up, a lesser performing) OLineman - particularly iOL - doesn't have to worry about getting juked by a stud defender because there's nowhere for that defender to go anyway; someone to the faked-out OL player's faked-out side will pick up the pass rusher or would-be tackler. If done right, a team also shouldn't need the most talented RBs to be majorly productive overall (though having such stud RB/RBs surely never hurts). 

The problem (which we've been treated to watching early this year) is if it's new to the team and they're not so good at improvising - as AVT did here - or if they just don't have it down conceptually when the scheme is new or there's been a bunch of sudden personnel turnover - then it's easier to exploit weaknesses.

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