The Elephant in the Room

[Jet Nut]

8 minutes ago, derp said:

It’s like you didn’t even read my posts.

I’m ragging on drafting quarterbacks 2-5 overall and saying it’s better to draft them later in the first round. Nothing about the second round. You come back with guys drafted 1, 6, 12, and 10.

The Herbert-Watson area of the draft is exactly where I think teams should be drafting quarterbacks.

And youre just being argumentative, most of the successful picks come early.  There is a better chance of finding a FQB early as opposed to later in the draft.  

You asked for examples i gave you 4, all top 10ish picks.  I can go on and add in an Allen a Murray or even a Baker to the list, youre going to give me smatterings beyong 10.  

Its a bad argument to try and back a bad take that taking a QB top 10 is the way to keep losing

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Mental gymnastics to avoid placing any blame on Wilson. These are the same guys who were 100% sure the offense sucked because of LaFleur and thought they knew all the wrong plays were called. Now it's a different offense and because the OC is in the magical booth.

I mean, I get it, nobody wants the kid to suck and there are lot of posters who are emotionally invested in his success, seemingly more so than the Jets, which is bizarre but I digress.  It's not easy propping a player up for months or convincing yourself on someone because you want it so bad, even before he was on the team and then having to admit you were wrong and he's in over his skies.  It's much easier to just point the finger but Mike White didnt learn an entire new playbook in 1 week.  He's executing the system/plays that both him and Zach Wilson have learned.

Like usual, there are ton of factors going into what we are seeing on offense and yes, QB is a big part of that change.  All of the following are true and play a part into what we're seeing, who knows where the percentages are heavier but it really doesnt matter;

Zach was not ready and thus, very bad + the offense as a whole is settling into a new system and playing better as they are more comfortable in the system + currently, Mike White is a better Football player than Zach Wilson and thus, everyone is playing better as he executes + Mike LaFleur is settling into being a play caller and maybe the booth helps a little bit + his QB is giving him opportunities to call more plays = the offense is playing better.

 

[T0mShane]

2 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

I mean, I get it, nobody wants the kid to suck and there are lot of posters who are emotionally invested in his success, seemingly more so than the Jets, which is bizarre but I digress.  It's not easy propping a player up for months or convincing yourself on someone because you want it so bad, even before he was on the team and then having to admit you were wrong and he's in over his skies.  It's much easier to just point the finger but Mike White didnt learn an entire new playbook in 1 week.  He's executing the system/plays that both him and Zach Wilson have learned.

Like usual, there are ton of factors going into what we are seeing on offense and yes, QB is a big part of that change.  All of the following are true and play a part into what we're seeing, who knows where the percentages are heavier but it really doesnt matter;

Zach was not ready and thus, very bad + the offense as a whole is settling into a new system and playing better as they are more comfortable in the system + currently, Mike White is a better Football player than Zach Wilson and thus, everyone is playing better as he executes + Mike LaFleur is settling into being a play caller and maybe the booth helps a little bit + his QB is giving him opportunities to call more plays = the offense is playing better.

 

<After every Zach Wilson start>
Jets fans: We need five new offensive linemen and all new backs and receivers!
 

<After Mike White starts>
Jets fans: Well, the offense looks stacked, I guess we should go all defense in the draft next year!

[doitny]

20 minutes ago, derp said:

It’s like you didn’t even read my posts.

I’m ragging on drafting quarterbacks 2-5 overall and saying it’s better to draft them later in the first round. Nothing about the second round. You come back with guys drafted 1, 6, 12, and 10.

The Herbert-Watson area of the draft is exactly where I think teams should be drafting quarterbacks.

but that doesnt make sense. so are Watson and Mahomes not as good if they were taken were they should have been , in the top 5 ?

so if Sam Darnold was taken 7th by the Jets and Allen at 3 by the  Bills does that mean Sam would be better than Allen?

those QBs taken later wasn't necessary what they wanted but what other teams left them.

 

[Scoop24]

Jets aren’t winning a thing. Keep developing Wilson. 

[genot]

On 11/6/2021 at 9:44 AM, sec101row23 said:

I’d agree with that.  It’s like LaFleur finally read my suggestions to utilize some 4 wide and spread things out some.  When Zach comes back, he’ll benefit greatly from some of those formations.  

Hopefully. I must say I've been impressed  with White quickly and correctly deciding his best option. Can Wilson process that quickly.????

[Peace Frog]

16 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

I guess some of us want to just watch the Jets suck for as long as possible.  

I was not expressing an opinion one way or another. 

I was just summarizing your long/winded post for another poster, just helping a brother out @Fantasy Island

[T0mShane]

23 minutes ago, Scoop24 said:

Jets aren’t winning a thing. Keep developing Wilson. 

Miami fans said this about Tua and now his career is over. Develop Wilson in practice 

[More Cowbell]

7 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

I was not expressing an opinion one way or another. 

I was just summarizing your long/winded post for another poster, just helping a brother out @Fantasy Island

I admit to anyone that asks, I did not want the Jets to draft Wilson mainly due to the lack of competition  he faced but when they did, I did get on board but Zack has not given me a reason to embrace him. I don't  hate Zack, he seems like a good kid, I hate how he plays and I am tired of watching  this ? show year after year. Zack was holding this team back. The numbers don't lie. And if you want to say LeFlure was holding him back and has taken the training wheels off for MW, I think that is due to MW doi g what they are asking in getting first downs and keeping drives going allowing them to rin more of the playbook. 

[T0mShane]

27 minutes ago, doitny said:

but that doesnt make sense. so are Watson and Mahomes not as good if they were taken were they should have been , in the top 5 ?

so if Sam Darnold was taken 7th by the Jets and Allen at 3 by the  Bills does that mean Sam would be better than Allen?

those QBs taken later wasn't necessary what they wanted but what other teams left them.

 

I think what happens is that dreadful teams who end up with picks in the top three are usually desperate for a quick turnaround and end up drafting a QB because the halfwit draft community congeals around one or two QB prospects and the team’s desperation forces their hand. Meanwhile, teams sitting in that 7 to 15 range have plausible deniability for passing on any QBs that remain on the board because that same nitiwit draft community declares those QB prospects to be deeply flawed in some way, so the drafting teams aren’t under any duress to take those flawed players and can make a clear-headed decision. 

[Peace Frog]

3 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

I admit to anyone that asks, I did not want the Jets to draft Wilson mainly due to the lack of competition  he faced but when they did, I did get on board but Zack has not given me a reason to embrace him. I don't  hate Zack, he seems like a good kid, I hate how he plays. 

Gotcha. Massive sample size to come to that conclusion. 

[Lurker89]

On 11/6/2021 at 9:04 AM, FidelioJet said:

This discussion the the polar opposite of "The Elephant in the Room. as It's been discussed ad nauseam.   We get it, Mike White's one game performance has made LaFleur a hero and Zach a bum....

The expression "the elephant in the room (or "the elephant in the living room")^[1][2] is a metaphorical idiom in English for an important or enormous topic, question, or controversial issue that is obvious or that everyone knows about but no one mentions or wants to discuss because it makes at least some of them uncomfortable and is personally, socially, or politically embarrassing, controversial, inflammatory, or dangerous.^[3][4]

 

Well Fid, There seem to be quite a few unrealized geniuses on the boards with us here.

 

The people with the strongest opinions seem to have the least amount of brains cells.

 Hot takes like the book is closed on Wilson and Mike White being FQB material are coming out of the same mouth looking to cut White last month. How they have made it this far with out drowning in the rain eludes me.

A lot of our fellow "fans" are less bearable than this nightmare of a team we follow and deserve every bit of misery  this team dishes their way.

[Joejet]

In fairness to the development of the other young offensive players I think Mike White should start now because he has a better grasp of the offense. The young receivers look better because White is decisive and accurate with his throws; the running backs look better because there is a better mixture of run, pass, screen; and the line looks better because the ball is out quicker so they don’t have to hold their blocks as long.

The defense should look better because they are getting more rest from the extended drives but they are surprisingly looking worse.

I’m not saying that Wilson can’t develop into being the better QB but right now White seems to be the better choice. A lot of QBs have sat their rookie years and learned and it hasn’t hurt their long term capability.

[More Cowbell]

2 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Gotcha. Massive sample size to come to that conclusion. 

For the first time in years, I was excited to watch this team play Thursday night. It was a horrible game but I felt there was reason to expect better. I have not felt like that since Fitzpatrick was the QB. If you are happy watching the terrible product this team has put out year in and year out, that is up to you. I want to enjoy watching the Jets. MW allowed me to enjoy watching them and gave me a freaking reprieve from this NFL Hell we have been in the last 5 years. IMO, Zack doesn't and I will believe this until he shows me different. From the first snap White took, you could see the O ran better with him. That wasn't  by accident, it is because he plays in the system. Let Zack sit and watch. He will be a better QB for it.

[genot]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

<After every Zach Wilson start>
Jets fans: We need five new offensive linemen and all new backs and receivers!
 

<After Mike White starts>
Jets fans: Well, the offense looks stacked, I guess we should go all defense in the draft next year!

Elijah Moore can be real good. Didn't know that until a few games ago. Coincidence?

[doitny]

10 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I think what happens is that dreadful teams who end up with picks in the top three are usually desperate for a quick turnaround and end up drafting a QB because the halfwit draft community congeals around one or two QB prospects and the team’s desperation forces their hand. Meanwhile, teams sitting in that 7 to 15 range have plausible deniability for passing on any QBs that remain on the board because that same nitiwit draft community declares those QB prospects to be deeply flawed in some way, so the drafting teams aren’t under any duress to take those flawed players and can make a clear-headed decision. 

plus those nitwits prop these guys up or down for months. that has to effect a GMs decision. 

[T0mShane]

7 minutes ago, genot said:

Elijah Moore can be real good. Didn't know that until a few games ago. Coincidence?

Greg Van Roten should buy Mike White a Mercedes if this keeps up.

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, doitny said:

plus those nitwits prop these guys up or down for months. that has to effect a GMs decision. 

Nitwits from The Draft Network fluff a guy—->McShay reads the internet and fluffs that guy—->Casual fans, who have never actually seen that guy, think that guy is aces—->GM whose team just went 2-14 thinks he can buy himself three more years of paychecks by drafting that guy—->That guy gets drafted 2 overall

[derp]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

And youre just being argumentative, most of the successful picks come early.  There is a better chance of finding a FQB early as opposed to later in the draft.  

You asked for examples i gave you 4, all top 10ish picks.  I can go on and add in an Allen a Murray or even a Baker to the list, youre going to give me smatterings beyong 10.  

Its a bad argument to try and back a bad take that taking a QB top 10 is the way to keep losing

Not so sure what is so hard to understand about me repeating 2-5 overall but you keep bringing up guys taken one or 6-15.

[Jet Nut]

7 minutes ago, derp said:

Not so sure what is so hard to understand about me repeating 2-5 overall but you keep bringing up guys taken one or 6-15.

Listen, you said to keep drafting QBs high is a recipe for losing.   I countered with most of the top QBs went high.  Argue 2-5 vs 6-15 or whatever all you want but that was the conversation and 6-15 is top of the draft.  I'm not moving the goal posts. 

[derp]

1 hour ago, doitny said:

but that doesnt make sense. so are Watson and Mahomes not as good if they were taken were they should have been , in the top 5 ?

so if Sam Darnold was taken 7th by the Jets and Allen at 3 by the  Bills does that mean Sam would be better than Allen?

those QBs taken later wasn't necessary what they wanted but what other teams left them.

 

I mean you’re tossing out hypotheticals that’s we’ll never know the answer to, right?

I think there’s something to developing quarterbacks and it’s not quite decided whether or not a guy is going to be good when he comes into the league. Getting the right guy takes a bit of luck and also I think there needs to be support around the player as well.

The track record especially in that 2-5 range is horrific. There’s probably a little randomness. Probably also a little that teams don’t value the right traits early in the draft. And also probably that it’s hard for guys who aren’t truly #1 overall special to come in and turn around a football team that’s really, really bad.

I think largely the perspective that I don’t like is the whole idea that if you’re at the top of the draft and need a quarterback, you need to take one there because otherwise you can’t get one. Realistically though those guys at the top of the draft bust a ton and guys who go later can be absolute superstar, MVP caliber players. I just don’t think the way draft picks have played out supports what most of the really bad teams do in that range.

[derp]

2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Listen, you said to keep drafting QBs high is a recipe for losing.   I countered with most of the top QBs went high.  Argue 2-5 vs 6-15 or whatever all you want but that was the conversation and 6-15 is top of the draft.  I'm not moving the goal posts. 

I said the risk reward for drafting a quarterback at 2 wasn’t good. You said that creates a scenario that you’d never draft a quarterback. I said that wasn’t my perspective, and then you proceeded to give me a bunch of scenarios that I would draft a quarterback. I’m not moving the goalposts either, you just keep thinking I’m saying things that I’m not.

[Jet Nut]

54 minutes ago, genot said:

Hopefully. I must say I've been impressed  with White quickly and correctly deciding his best option. Can Wilson process that quickly.????

Today probably not ready to process defenses like a 3rd year vet.  Just like every other 1st round pick, takes more than a handful of games.  

[doitny]

14 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Nitwits from The Draft Network fluff a guy—->McShay reads the internet and fluffs that guy—->Casual fans, who have never actually seen that guy, think that guy is aces—->GM whose team just went 2-14 thinks he can buy himself three more years of paychecks by drafting that guy—->That guy gets drafted 2 overall

we knew Sam had to go. we had to draft a QB at 2. and its yet to be scene if its the right choice or not.

thats like Jax, could they pick anyone but Trevor after the NFL world declared him the next Andrew Luck? picking in the 1st rd is harder then the others. nobody cares who you pick in rd 2 and beyond

[Jet Nut]

7 minutes ago, derp said:

I said the risk reward for drafting a quarterback at 2 wasn’t good. You said that creates a scenario that you’d never draft a quarterback. I said that wasn’t my perspective, and then you proceeded to give me a bunch of scenarios that I would draft a quarterback. I’m not moving the goalposts either, you just keep thinking I’m saying things that I’m not.

And the comment still makes little sense.  You seem to think that the risk at 2 is so far and away different than the risk at 6-15 whatever and I dont agree and wont no matter how many times you repeat it.  Its a 1st round pick and a fail and 6 is just as bad as a fail at 2 because each should be huge contributors especially if theyre QBs.   Stop fixating at 2, 2 isnt a guarantee even if you dont go QB.  The statement should be keep throwing 1st away and thats a recipe for continued losing.  

[derp]

Just now, Jet Nut said:

And the comment still makes no sense.  You seem to think that the risk at 2 is so far and away different than the risk at 6-15 whatever and I dont agree and wont no matter how many times you repeat it.  Its your only 1st round pick and a fail and 6 is just as bad as a fail at 2 because each should be huge contributors especially if theyre QBs.   Stop fixating at 2, 2 isnt a guarantee even if you dont go QB.

Teams drafting QB’s in the 2-5 range are investing more than teams drafting them in the 6-15 range, but they’ve been getting considerably worse results over the last decade plus. That’s why I have the perspective I do. You clearly have a different perspective, I don’t need you to agree, you haven’t said anything that’s changing my mind either, we should probably drop it.

[Jet Nut]

28 minutes ago, derp said:

Teams drafting QB’s in the 2-5 range are investing more than teams drafting them in the 6-15 range, but they’ve been getting considerably worse results over the last decade plus. That’s why I have the perspective I do. You clearly have a different perspective, I don’t need you to agree, you haven’t said anything that’s changing my mind either, we should probably drop it.

Missing on 6-15 is the same thing to me, you lost a shot at a starting player someone who you expect to contribute for some time.  Theres no bigger investment in 2 than 6, especially if theyre both 1st round picks invested in QBs.  This whole we wasted a 2 on a QB is a line of silliness, drafting Wilson at 6 and having him fail does what for the Jets as opposed to having him fail at 2.  Not a friggen thing.  So yes, not point in any of this continuing.    

[Green Ghost]

19 hours ago, nj meadowlands said:

They just can’t start Zach vs. Buffalo.  The Jets are going to struggle in that game no matter who’s playing QB, and if it’s Zach presiding over the struggle rather than “MIKE F’N WHIIIIIITE” he’s going to get booed to outer space.

And it seems pretty obvious that, provided White’s funny bone is healed, he will get the start.  No need to rush Zach back from a knee injury to begin with, especially when White actually does deserve an extended look.

Let White play for as long as he continues to deal.  If he struggles, work Zach back into the mix.  If he never struggles, well sh*t, that’s a great problem to have.

It’s pretty sad that a lot of Jets fans feel the same way you do about our #2 pick in the draft. We’re afraid to put him on the field against a good team because nobody thinks he can handle it 9 weeks into the season.

It would be nice if at least half of us wanted Zach out there because “he’s the guy we thought we were getting”, but I haven’t heard one person say that.

Instead we want to hide him away and hope he magically becomes as good as Mike White. Ugh.

 

[Peace Frog]

1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

For the first time in years, I was excited to watch this team play Thursday night. It was a horrible game but I felt there was reason to expect better. I have not felt like that since Fitzpatrick was the QB. If you are happy watching the terrible product this team has put out year in and year out, that is up to you. I want to enjoy watching the Jets. MW allowed me to enjoy watching them and gave me a freaking reprieve from this NFL Hell we have been in the last 5 years. IMO, Zack doesn't and I will believe this until he shows me different. From the first snap White took, you could see the O ran better with him. That wasn't  by accident, it is because he plays in the system. Let Zack sit and watch. He will be a better QB for it.

What part of anything I said says I am happy watching a terrible product or I don't want to be excited.  Quote it. 

But before Mike White went all Montana on us--he was an awful third or 4th string QB in this league--barely could hold off James Morgan and couldn't replace the worst QB in the league Sam Darnold.

I love the kid but he is NOT part of the future.

Josh Johnson also looked good and gave us some entertainment.  I never want to see him on the field again because I am looking to the future.

It's either Zach or we start over again.

[Peace Frog]

5 minutes ago, Green Ghost said:

It’s pretty sad that a lot of Jets fans feel the same way you do about our #2 pick in the draft. We’re afraid to put him on the field against a good team because nobody thinks he can handle it 9 weeks into the season.

It would be nice if at least half of us wanted Zach out there because “he’s the guy we thought we were getting”, but I haven’t heard one person say that.

Instead we want to hide him away and hope he magically becomes as good as Mike White. Ugh.

 

It's not that I don't think he can or can't handle it, but if he's even slightly compromised I don't want him killed by a very good Buffalo defense.

[Jet Nut]

9 minutes ago, Green Ghost said:

It’s pretty sad that a lot of Jets fans feel the same way you do about our #2 pick in the draft. We’re afraid to put him on the field against a good team because nobody thinks he can handle it 9 weeks into the season.

It would be nice if at least half of us wanted Zach out there because “he’s the guy we thought we were getting”, but I haven’t heard one person say that.

Instead we want to hide him away and hope he magically becomes as good as Mike White. Ugh.

 

Sad part is you actually believe that this is what most Jets fans feel.  

 

[Dunnie]

This is the bottom line and 100 % correct. Some posters don't want to go by the Facts and continue to make excuses for the guy they think should be running the show when he is obviously are not ready to do so.

I think it comes down to deciding what is the best method for the future FQB to learn ... by fire ... or by watching... wins mean zero this year.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[rtnelson]

3 hours ago, derp said:

It’s like you didn’t even read my posts.

I’m ragging on drafting quarterbacks 2-5 overall and saying it’s better to draft them later in the first round. Nothing about the second round. You come back with guys drafted 1, 6, 12, and 10.

The Herbert-Watson area of the draft is exactly where I think teams should be drafting quarterbacks.

You mean QB's that go to better teams generally develop better and have better careers?

If Sam Darnold was drafted by the 49'ers, sat for a year behind Jimmy G or whatever, there is a decent chance he could have developed in to a quality NFL QB.  But he spent years running for his life behind a terrible OL which has made him jittery like an abused puppy.

[Green Ghost]

39 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Sad part is you actually believe that this is what most Jets fans feel.  

 

Instead of being Mary Contrary all the time, read the room… are you trying to tell me most of the people here are saying they want Zach to start next week?

(then read what I actually said, which was “a lot of Jet fans”) you’re always in such a hurry to disagree you don’t even bother reading what you want to disagree with.

[Green Ghost]

30 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

It's not that I don't think he can or can't handle it, but if he's even slightly compromised I don't want him killed by a very good Buffalo defense.

I think we’re on the same page here with this.

If he’s healthy though, I think we have to play him. 9 weeks in, he’s got to be out there *IF* he’s healthy. You can’t hide the #2 pick in the draft until next season.

a. You push the “learning clock” back another year

b. We’d be assuming he’ll learn more by watching than playing, which is a take I don’t agree with