Jets defense in danger of being in company they want no part of

[rox]

-   The Jets enter this game allowing an NFL-high 31.4 points per game. They’ve allowed the most total yards to opposing offenses and are coming off of a game in which they yielded 260 rushing yards to the Colts — 211 of which came before first contact with a Jets defender, according to ESPN statistics.

It was an alarming display and left you to wonder what the deal is with the defense considering that Saleh came here with a defensive background. You’d figure the defense would be ahead of the offense, which has been led by a rookie quarterback, Zach Wilson, and a backup, Mike White, who’d never played an NFL down entering the season.

- -    https://nypost.com/2021/11/09/jets-defense-in-danger-of-being-in-company-they-want-no-part-of/

[1010WINS]

Just now, rox said:

-   The Jets enter this game allowing an NFL-high 31.4 points per game. They’ve allowed the most total yards to opposing offenses and are coming off of a game in which they yielded 260 rushing yards to the Colts — 211 of which came before first contact with a Jets defender, according to ESPN statistics.

It was an alarming display and left you to wonder what the deal is with the defense considering that Saleh came here with a defensive background. You’d figure the defense would be ahead of the offense, which has been led by a rookie quarterback, Zach Wilson, and a backup, Mike White, who’d never played an NFL down entering the season.

- -    https://nypost.com/2021/11/09/jets-defense-in-danger-of-being-in-company-they-want-no-part-of/

Saleh and Ulbrich are brilliant defensive minds. They will clean this up. 

[GreenFish]

We expected our defense to be bad and they were surprisingly ok to start the year. Now teams are getting the ball out quickly and our pass rush can no longer get to the QB in time.

I don’t see how our coaching staff can fix this. We’re lacking talent in at DB (mainly at the safety position but Echols is also not a starting caliber corner) and LB.

[MyFavoriteMartin28]

We knew this defense was going to be bad going into the season. Between linebackers, corners, and safety we have/had two players that would start on other teams. Moseley and Maye. They just played a lot better than expected those first few games because the pass rush was there. Now that we’re exposed to not be able to cover short quick throws we’re back to where we were expected to be before the season started. 

[Warfish]

21 minutes ago, rox said:

-   The Jets enter this game allowing an NFL-high 31.4 points per game. They’ve allowed the most total yards to opposing offenses and are coming off of a game in which they yielded 260 rushing yards to the Colts — 211 of which came before first contact with a Jets defender, according to ESPN statistics.

It was an alarming display and left you to wonder what the deal is with the defense considering that Saleh came here with a defensive background. You’d figure the defense would be ahead of the offense, which has been led by a rookie quarterback, Zach Wilson, and a backup, Mike White, who’d never played an NFL down entering the season.

- -    https://nypost.com/2021/11/09/jets-defense-in-danger-of-being-in-company-they-want-no-part-of/

I'll start:

1. Our D-Line isn't remotely as talented as some fans like to think.  They are atrocious.

2. Apart from Mosely, the LB Corp. is atrocious.

3. Generally, the DB's, while young and growing, are mostly atrocious.

It's just a weak, low-talent group all around.

This was the price of drafting mostly Offense (which I 100% supported) the past few drafts and trying to backfill the D with FA's who, sadly, haven't panned out.  Our best Defensive FA got hurt before the season started, for example.  That makes a difference.

Trouble is, all that investment in the Offense hasn't paid any dividends really either:  Wilson is the worst QB in the NFL so far, Davis isn't remotely a #1 so far, Mims is trending to bust, the O-line is average at it's very best, etc.

Hence where we are.  Worst D in the NFL, close to worst O in the NFL.

In theory, we'll improve with time and patience, as the young team grows and learns and new pieces are added and hurt players return.

But it's far from a sure thing.  

 

 

[Chrebetfan80]

2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I'll start:

1. Our D-Line isn't remotely as talented as some fans like to think.  They are atrocious.

2. Apart from Mosely, the LB Corp. is atrocious.

3. Generally, the DB's, while young and growing, are mostly atrocious.

It's just a weak, low-talent group all around.

This was the price of drafting mostly Offense (which I 100% supported) the past few drafts and trying to backfill the D with FA's who, sadly, haven't panned out.  Our best Defensive FA got hurt before the season started, for example.  That makes a difference.

Trouble is, all that investment in the Offense hasn't paid any dividends really either:  Wilson is the worst QB in the NFL so far, Davis isn't remotely a #1 so far, Mims is trending to bust, the O-line is average at it's very best, etc.

Hence where we are.  Worst D in the NFL, close to worst O in the NFL.

In theory, we'll improve with time and patience, as the young team grows and learns and new pieces are added and hurt players return.

But it's far from a sure thing.  

 

 

The biggest aspect is the transition from one scheme to the other.  What we are seeing is an adjustment period still (i know no one wants to hear it but its true), as well as the BIGGEST issue with this defense which is speed. 

4-2-5 which is essentially what Saleh and Ulbrich run scheme wise (not a pure one but personnel wise thats how they structure it), requires more team speed especially from the linebackers (big reason why they like their will to be converted safeties who can cover well and run).  

Big issues right now is the overall speed of the team is garbage, its getting better but historically the jets have been a slow lumbering team for years.  It was an issue with every defense we've had for the past 10 years in my mind. So while the Dline has done a terrible job reading their run keys and fighting to maintain gap integrity, the LBs are late filling gaps because 1. most of them are JAGs and 2. they are slower.  This leads to wide open lanes.  There are few impact players on this team and even less that play with the speed required to slide and fill gaps in this defense, it will get better with time, but youre going to see a lot of growing pains in the process of getting the right mix of talent in here. 

[1010WINS]

10 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I'll start:

1. Our D-Line isn't remotely as talented as some fans like to think.  They are atrocious.

2. Apart from Mosely, the LB Corp. is atrocious.

3. Generally, the DB's, while young and growing, are mostly atrocious.

It's just a weak, low-talent group all around.

This was the price of drafting mostly Offense (which I 100% supported) the past few drafts and trying to backfill the D with FA's who, sadly, haven't panned out.  Our best Defensive FA got hurt before the season started, for example.  That makes a difference.

Trouble is, all that investment in the Offense hasn't paid any dividends really either:  Wilson is the worst QB in the NFL so far, Davis isn't remotely a #1 so far, Mims is trending to bust, the O-line is average at it's very best, etc.

Hence where we are.  Worst D in the NFL, close to worst O in the NFL.

In theory, we'll improve with time and patience, as the young team grows and learns and new pieces are added and hurt players return.

But it's far from a sure thing.  

 

 

The Jets also have $40MM worth of players on IR. Mostly defense. 

[JoeDouglasFart]

Thank you JD for all that dough!

[doitny]

19 minutes ago, JoeDouglasFart said:

Thank you JD for all that dough!

we got him pretty cheap at around 12 mil a year. 

he is a 1/2 sack behind QW and tied with 9 QB hits.

he is also 1 1/2 sacks and 1 QB hit behind Leo who is making 26 mil this year then 19 and 18 mil.

he also has more Pressures and hurries. 

we are paying him right for what he does. wait till you see what QW asks for.

[JoeDouglasFart]

2 minutes ago, doitny said:

wait till you see what QW asks for

He will get tagged or traded. JD ain't breaking the bank for Baby Huey. (Pic reference for the youngsters).

 

[doitny]

37 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

The biggest aspect is the transition from one scheme to the other.  What we are seeing is an adjustment period still (i know no one wants to hear it but its true), as well as the BIGGEST issue with this defense which is speed. 

4-2-5 which is essentially what Saleh and Ulbrich run scheme wise (not a pure one but personnel wise thats how they structure it), requires more team speed especially from the linebackers (big reason why they like their will to be converted safeties who can cover well and run).  

Big issues right now is the overall speed of the team is garbage, its getting better but historically the jets have been a slow lumbering team for years.  It was an issue with every defense we've had for the past 10 years in my mind. So while the Dline has done a terrible job reading their run keys and fighting to maintain gap integrity, the LBs are late filling gaps because 1. most of them are JAGs and 2. they are slower.  This leads to wide open lanes.  There are few impact players on this team and even less that play with the speed required to slide and fill gaps in this defense, it will get better with time, but youre going to see a lot of growing pains in the process of getting the right mix of talent in here. 

well maybe they need to go to a 4-3 until they get the right guys to run this. 

no wonder why we give up big runs. just have to get past the 1st level and most of the time there is no LB at level 2 cause he cant get there in time. so now you got a safety in a mismatch and trying to get to the hole. 

[doitny]

1 minute ago, JoeDouglasFart said:

He will get tagged or traded. JD ain't breaking the bank for Baby Huey. (Pic reference for the youngsters).

 

yeah i think traded this summer where he could maybe get a #1. then we can hear the usual JD haters cry how he trades away all our good players.

[rox]

9 minutes ago, JoeDouglasFart said:

He will get tagged  * & then *  traded.    JD ain't breaking the bank for Baby Huey. (Pic reference for the youngsters).

 

* fixed *   ^^ 

[JTJet]

18 minutes ago, doitny said:

wait till you see what QW asks for.

We will Jamal Adams the dude before we pay him. 

[THE BARON]

1 hour ago, GreenFish said:

We expected our defense to be bad and they were surprisingly ok to start the year. Now teams are getting the ball out quickly and our pass rush can no longer get to the QB in time.

I don’t see how our coaching staff can fix this. We’re lacking talent in at DB (mainly at the safety position but Echols is also not a starting caliber corner) and LB.

Agree.  It is not a systemic problem with the defense.  It is a systemic problem with the GM.  Granted, Rome was not built in a day, but the absolute lack of talent on the Jets roster points to inept administration on the part of JD.

I still like Saleh and think he is a very good coach. 

It is hard to see Saleh as a good coach considering how bad the manpower is, but there are a lot of clues to suggest Saleh is a good man to sit in the big chair.

1.  Clock management is never a problem

2.  You dont see foolish procedural penalties

3.  You dont see 12 men on the field and guys not knowing where to be before and between plays.

4. You dont see/hear players acting out in any way.

The Jets have a roster/lack of talent issue.  That's on JD

I suppose it is accurate to say that the situation had to get worse before it got better considering they want to build through the draft.  Naturally, they had to cast off some old players that they didn't want to pay for and they have to take a few seasons to scout and drat.

BUT... We should be seeing better results from JD's picks and we don't

If the draft class from the past two years don't show up by game one next year and JD's 2 first round picks dont show up early as very good picks, it is going to be and justly so, open season on JD.

Again... I like Saleh, but for JD it is F**K or hit the bricks.  That also means, the next GM will have to pick another HC. 

[DjHoldyHold]

1 hour ago, rox said:

-   The Jets enter this game allowing an NFL-high 31.4 points per game. They’ve allowed the most total yards to opposing offenses and are coming off of a game in which they yielded 260 rushing yards to the Colts — 211 of which came before first contact with a Jets defender, according to ESPN statistics.

It was an alarming display and left you to wonder what the deal is with the defense considering that Saleh came here with a defensive background. You’d figure the defense would be ahead of the offense, which has been led by a rookie quarterback, Zach Wilson, and a backup, Mike White, who’d never played an NFL down entering the season.

- -    https://nypost.com/2021/11/09/jets-defense-in-danger-of-being-in-company-they-want-no-part-of/

Unfair to compare anyone to Mike White. He's truly in a class of his own. I'm just glad I can watch his career, can't wait to tell my kids about him

[DjHoldyHold]

1 hour ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

The biggest aspect is the transition from one scheme to the other.  What we are seeing is an adjustment period still (i know no one wants to hear it but its true), as well as the BIGGEST issue with this defense which is speed. 

4-2-5 which is essentially what Saleh and Ulbrich run scheme wise (not a pure one but personnel wise thats how they structure it), requires more team speed especially from the linebackers (big reason why they like their will to be converted safeties who can cover well and run).  

Big issues right now is the overall speed of the team is garbage, its getting better but historically the jets have been a slow lumbering team for years.  It was an issue with every defense we've had for the past 10 years in my mind. So while the Dline has done a terrible job reading their run keys and fighting to maintain gap integrity, the LBs are late filling gaps because 1. most of them are JAGs and 2. they are slower.  This leads to wide open lanes.  There are few impact players on this team and even less that play with the speed required to slide and fill gaps in this defense, it will get better with time, but youre going to see a lot of growing pains in the process of getting the right mix of talent in here. 

Totally agree. I think the personnel we have isn't being utilized properly either. 

I think Mosely has gotten to skinny, which was done as per Saleh's request. Our linebackers have gotten really small, making it impossible for them to take on blocks. Quincy Williams has been the only guy who has been reliable stuffing the run.

Quinnen has the same issue. He's a bit small to play DT. He is talented and strong as hell, but doesn't quite carry the bulk. I believe he should play more edge/DE. 

Lastly, our D lineman are not in the optimal position. We are not using our lineman to eat blocks, and letting guards (and occasionally tackles) to move to our linebackers untouched. The Jets are running a pure nose tackle, but don't have the Vince Wilfork/Fletcher Cox type player to take on a guard and center. Instead one lineman is free off the line to chip up to a backer. Playing our d lineman more on the guards (whether it be head up or shaded) will let our smaller linebackers scrape more freely

[doitny]

3 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

Agree.  It is not a systemic problem with the defense.  It is a systemic problem with the GM.  Granted, Rome was not built in a day, but the absolute lack of talent on the Jets roster points to inept administration on the part of JD.

I still like Saleh and think he is a very good coach. 

It is hard to see to j Saleh as a good coach considering how bad the manpower is, but there are a lot of clues to suggest Saleh is a good man to sit in the big chair.

1.  Clock management is never a problem

2.  You dont see foolish procedural penalties

3.  You dont see 12 men on the field and guys not knowing where to be before and between plays.

4. You dont see/hear players acting out in any way.

The Jets have a roster/lack of talent issue.  That's on JD

I suppose it is accurate to say that the situation had to get worse before it got better considering they want to build through the draft.  Naturally, they had to cast off some old players that they didn't want to pay for and they have to take a few seasons to scout and drat.

BUT... We should be seeing better results from JD's picks and we don't

If the draft class from the past two years don't show up by game one next year and JD's 2 first round picks dont show up early as very good picks, it is going to be and justly so, open season on JD.

Again... I like Saleh, but for JD it is F**K or hit the bricks.  That also means, the next GM will have to pick another HC. 

what draft picks on defense? in the first 4 rds in 2 drafts JD picked 2 defense and 9 offensive players.

and we lose Lawson and Joyner for the year. Jarrad Davis just played his 2nd game.

i think were seeing a nice core develop on offense with Moore, Carter and AVT. plus Wilson and Becton can add to that. he seems to had made the most of those early offensive pics. now its the defenses turn. first 4 picks on defense. 

i expect many arguments this offseason on the draft. despite how bad we have looked on defense i still see people wanting Centers and Guards in the 1st rd.

[Prodigal Syndicate]

50 minutes ago, doitny said:

we got him pretty cheap at around 12 mil a year. 

he is a 1/2 sack behind QW and tied with 9 QB hits.

he is also 1 1/2 sacks and 1 QB hit behind Leo who is making 26 mil this year then 19 and 18 mil.

he also has more Pressures and hurries. 

we are paying him right for what he does. wait till you see what QW asks for.

Compare his stats before and after the extension signing. 

[THE BARON]

13 minutes ago, doitny said:

what draft picks on defense? in the first 4 rds in 2 drafts JD picked 2 defense and 9 offensive players.

and we lose Lawson and Joyner for the year. Jarrad Davis just played his 2nd game.

i think were seeing a nice core develop on offense with Moore, Carter and AVT. plus Wilson and Becton can add to that. he seems to had made the most of those early offensive pics. now its the defenses turn. first 4 picks on defense. 

i expect many arguments this offseason on the draft. despite how bad we have looked on defense i still see people wanting Centers and Guards in the 1st rd.

Right.  What draft picks.  And what FA additions ??? Lawson was a mistake all the way.  I didn't expect him to hold up and he didn't.  There are no very good players on the defense other than CJ and MM.  Who's fault is that ?

As for the offense.  I thought Becton was a bad pick and I still do.  

No decent ball carriers to speak of, a poor offensive line and a developmental QB that was not "developed" but tossed into a job he was/is not prepared for

The GM has been a disaster thus far. 

[GangGreened]

Any time this defense is in 3rd and long I cringe 

[Chrebetfan80]

54 minutes ago, doitny said:

well maybe they need to go to a 4-3 until they get the right guys to run this. 

no wonder why we give up big runs. just have to get past the 1st level and most of the time there is no LB at level 2 cause he cant get there in time. so now you got a safety in a mismatch and trying to get to the hole. 

even if we were a pure 4-3 team we'd be in the same situation.  teams are rarely ever in a base defense in the nfl.  Most of the time youre in minimum nickle which would be a 425 personnel anyway for a 4-3 team. 

[flgreen]

Poll Results: Despite losses, wins over Titans and Bengals restore confidence

10 NOVEMBER 2021

Each month, we've been looking at how confident Jets fans are in the head coach and general manager. Since our last poll, the Jets have won a couple but also been blown out twice. How has that affected fan confidence?

Here were the results from last month's poll:

Douglas: JCI = 63%
Saleh: JCI = 57%

Here were the results from this latest poll:

Douglas: JCI = 75%
Saleh: JCI = 61%

The JCI is based on a 0-100 scale calculated from the poll responses. Here are the results so far plotted onto a graph:

The next poll will be at the end of November.

Let's hear your thoughts in the comments.

 

Site Admin

[THE BARON]

4 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

even if we were a pure 4-3 team we'd be in the same situation.  teams are rarely ever in a base defense in the nfl.  Most of the time youre in minimum nickle which would be a 425 personnel anyway for a 4-3 team. 

Yes... Any base scheme and the Jets still have the same issue.  Lack of quality manpower. 

Consider the 85 Bears that are associated with the historical 46 defense.

Dan Hamton, Steve McMichael, William Perry, Richard Dent

Otis Wilson, Mike Singletary, Wilber Marshal

Mike Richardson, Dave Duerson, Gary Fencik, Leslie Frazier

Put that group in a 43, 34, or 46 front with whatever coverage scheme you want and you'll still have the best defense in the league.

 

[Chrebetfan80]

27 minutes ago, DjHoldyHold said:

Totally agree. I think the personnel we have isn't being utilized properly either. 

I think Mosely has gotten to skinny, which was done as per Saleh's request. Our linebackers have gotten really small, making it impossible for them to take on blocks. Quincy Williams has been the only guy who has been reliable stuffing the run.

Quinnen has the same issue. He's a bit small to play DT. He is talented and strong as hell, but doesn't quite carry the bulk. I believe he should play more edge/DE. 

Lastly, our D lineman are not in the optimal position. We are not using our lineman to eat blocks, and letting guards (and occasionally tackles) to move to our linebackers untouched. The Jets are running a pure nose tackle, but don't have the Vince Wilfork/Fletcher Cox type player to take on a guard and center. Instead one lineman is free off the line to chip up to a backer. Playing our d lineman more on the guards (whether it be head up or shaded) will let our smaller linebackers scrape more freely

I think Quinnen is fine, he hasnt been playing disciplined with his technique as much lately, allowing himself to get position blocked when taking his gap and not scraping laterally as well as he should.  

Mosely has been fine too aside from just playing a little bit out of control in recent weeks, mostly because the D line has not been getting hands on as they take their gaps.   I do not agree with having a true nose in this defense, this is more of a penetrating 1 gap philosophy, where as what youre discussing is more of a 2 gap system of how a 3-4 plays it or how greg williams liked to run his interior DL.  A fletcher cox would work here because of his sudden burst and great hand usage, he would be a monster at the 1 tech here and a matchup nightmare splitting doubles. 2 techs is a good plan with pulling guards, but in the nfl with the level of tackle and center play, they can block back or scoop the 2 tech out which still allows for pulls, and now also on blocks are easier for guards, center climbs for backside backer free too unless youre slanting with the 2 techs.  

Regardless, scheme aside, the players have to play with better technique, especially on the DL.  LB's we have to see what we have right now.  Davis is working his way back, looked good in his first game, looked bad the last one.  The rest of the guys outside of mosely are really not good enough to be every day starters yet and their reads, angles, and consistency is showing it. 

[Chrebetfan80]

4 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

Yes... Any base scheme and the Jets still have the same issue.  Lack of quality manpower. 

Consider the 85 Bears that are associated with the historical 46 defense.

Dan Hamton, Steve McMichael, William Perry, Richard Dent

Otis Wilson, Mike Singletary, Wilber Marshal

Mike Richardson, Dave Duerson, Gary Fencik, Leslie Frazier

Put that group in a 43, 34, or 46 front with whatever coverage scheme you want and you'll still have the best defense in the league.

 

yes. big saying its not the x's and o's its the jimmy's and joe's.  

Run defense is about gap integrity and good tackling.  The jets right now have had poor gap integrity, poor team speed in pursuit, and poor fundamentals lately (mostly because half the defense is backups).  This will get better, but it may not right away. 

The problem isnt going to be fixed by just adding another slow LB to the box. 

[Fantasy Island]

3 hours ago, 1010WINS said:

Saleh and Ulbrich are brilliant defensive minds. They will clean this up. 

[DoubleDown]

I haven't really been impressed with Saleh's scheme.  The defensive linemen are aggressively shooting gaps, and the cut back lanes for the running backs are wide open.  We are seeing no adjustments when the game plan is clearly not working and the opponent is exploiting it.

[rox]

55 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

Yes... Any base scheme and the Jets still have the same issue.  Lack of quality manpower. 

Consider the 85 Bears that are associated with the historical 46 defense.

Dan Hamton, Steve McMichael, William Perry, Richard Dent

Otis Wilson, Mike Singletary, Wilber Marshal

Mike Richardson, Dave Duerson, Gary Fencik, Leslie Frazier

Put that group in a 43, 34, or 46 front with whatever coverage scheme you want and you'll still have the best defense in the league.

[GreenFish]

1 hour ago, Prodigal Syndicate said:

Compare his stats before and after the extension signing. 

Teams have adjusted to our defense. QBs are getting the ball out quickly which is not letting out pass rush get to the QB. We have a coverage issue and run defense issues that stems from LBs not filling the gaps.

We’ll see how it all plays out but I don’t see our DL as the problem.

[Flashlite80]

We can make lots of excuses.  Fact is 211 yards before any defensive player touched an Colt player.  Our defensive line was blown off the ball more than half the time.  Holes that you can drive a tractor trailer thru are not corrected with a tweak.

Let's not forget that they completed pass after pass to wide open receivers.

This was a massacre.  

The defense has been pretty good except for New England and , of course, last week.  New England took advantage of our inexperience with Mosely out.  Last week was something different.  We didn't react poorly, overrun, or take a bad angle.  We were pushed back at every position.

Saleh is a solid defensive coach.  I'm sure he found what they did to us and is making the necessary corrections.  I hope so, because every opponent will be doing that until we stop it.

[THE BARON]

2 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

Teams have adjusted to our defense. QBs are getting the ball out quickly which is not letting out pass rush get to the QB. We have a coverage issue and run defense issues that stems from LBs not filling the gaps.

We’ll see how it all plays out but I don’t see our DL as the problem.

Could not agree more.  The bigger problems are at the second level of the defense.  It is not systemic.  It is bad play by the LBs.  Or more to the point, lack of ability by the LBs

The coverage schemes are actually very sound,  Despite a general lack of talent in the defensive backfield, the scheme itself keeps things looking just "bad" instead of a complete disaster. 

Add another good LB, CB and S and the defense would be very good as long as the front four they have don't sleep all day.  

[JoJoTownsell1]

Jets defense in danger of being bad company? 

I think other historically bad defenses should be afraid of being lumped into the pathetic 2021 Jets defense. 

[slimjasi]

To be honest, we just don’t have the horses on defense. Going into the year, most of us had this as a bottom five defense on paper. I think a healthy Lawson and Curry could have changed that equation, but with a young secondary and below average LBs, not having a dominant pass rush is fatal 

My issue with the coaching staff is that the team has been largely non-competitive on the road 

[johnnysd]

3 hours ago, doitny said:

what draft picks on defense? in the first 4 rds in 2 drafts JD picked 2 defense and 9 offensive players.

and we lose Lawson and Joyner for the year. Jarrad Davis just played his 2nd game.

i think were seeing a nice core develop on offense with Moore, Carter and AVT. plus Wilson and Becton can add to that. he seems to had made the most of those early offensive pics. now its the defenses turn. first 4 picks on defense. 

i expect many arguments this offseason on the draft. despite how bad we have looked on defense i still see people wanting Centers and Guards in the 1st rd.

I'll be one of them