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Saleh is getting canned right?


Matt39

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20 minutes ago, peebag said:

I think the better question is, "What's the yardstick in 2022 for retaining Saleh?"

My belief is he'll need to have a winning season to be retained AND that's going to be a hard task to accomplish.

I think he’s quitting after this season

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46 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

Bryce Hall would be a CB2 on most other NFL teams. He’s currently about the fourth best player on the entire defense.

That tells you all you need to know.

Seriously, list the starting defenders and ask yourself if there is any reason this D should be better than the bottom 10 in the league.

I think Ashtyn Davis has the longest NFL tenure out of anyone who played in the secondary yesterday.

Agreed. There’s not a mock out there that doesn’t have us taking Stingley Jr… The biggest disappointment on this defense is that QW looks like another high pick who is merely “pretty good,” and who will almost certainly see free agency.

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1 hour ago, NorthCoastJetsFan said:

Holy smokes, have some patience.

Here are some numbers for you: 1-13, 3-12-1, 2-14, 0-11-1.  Those are the first year records of Chuck Noll, Bill Parcells, Bill Walsh and Tom Landry.

Which one of those should have been fired after that?

A great point.

We should seek out Head Coaches who only win 1-3 games their first year then get fired.

Clearly, these are the best Coaches in the NFL!

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1 minute ago, Warfish said:

A great point.

We should seek out Head Coaches who only win 1-3 games their first year then get fired.

Clearly, these are the best Coaches in the NFL!

I don't think that was the point. 

 

I think the point is that Saleh isn't necessarily going to be a failure just because he's having a bad first year. 

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2 hours ago, Copernicus said:

Heard (on Matt O'Leary pod) that Saleh is going through some stuff outside of football. Apparently he is being taken by his home contractor on a ridiculous level. Any home owner here knows the stress and anxiety that hiring someone to do work is on yourself , spouse and indirectly everything else. I cant imagine moving cross country to NY of all places and having this awful experience. The podcast spoke how his entire family has been living out of a hotel this entire time. Anyone with kids (I believe Saleh has SEVEN) can fully relate to how insane this most likely is. Could explain some things. Can anyone confirm this?

So you are the coach, with a multi-million-dollar salary, of a billion-dollar NFL franchise in the 2nd biggest media market, with a billionaire ownership and your family is living in a hotel.  Either this story is complete fake news (probable) or the GM and owners are completely and totally clueless, and the coach is a pussy for not sticking his hand up and say "help me fix this mess" and find me a rental within a 50-mile radius of Atlantic Health.  OK so maybe it is true ?

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2 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I don't think that was the point. 

 

I think the point is that Saleh isn't necessarily going to be a failure just because he's having a bad first year. 

The point is the same as it always is around here:

People point to the exceptional exceptions to the norm, then say "see, our guy can do it too!" without any actual, meaningful comparison or analysis as to why, for example in this case, Saleh deserves the same patience as Knoll, Cowher, etc.

Nope, we have a crap QB playing crappy, it's literally always "Look, Peyton Manning sucked his rookie year, just have some patience!" 

Or with Gase coaching horribly, where it was "hey, Bill Bellichek did poorly in his first stint, just have patience hater!".

We all saw how that worked out with Darnold.  And Gase.

Yes, it is possible that Saleh could become a great like Knoll or Cowher.  He could also possibly win the lottery.  And possibly cure Cancer. 

Many things are possible, not many of them a likely.

If we're going to argue for patience, we should be saying WHY Saleh deserves patience based on Saleh. 

Not on Chuck Knoll once having defied the bad-first-year-odds.

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3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

The point is the same as it always is around here:

People point to the exceptional exceptions to the norm, then say "see, our guy can do it too!" without any actual, meaningful comparison or analysis as to why, for example in this case, Saleh deserves the same patience as Knoll, Cowher, etc.

Nope, we have a crap QB playing crappy, it's literally always "Look, Peyton Manning sucked his rookie year, just have some patience!" 

Or with Gase coaching horribly, where it was "hey, Bill Bellichek did poorly in his first stint, just have patience hater!".

We all saw how that worked out with Darnold.  And Gase.

Yes, it is possible that Saleh could become a great like Knoll or Cowher.  He could also possibly win the lottery.  And possibly cure Cancer. 

Many things are possible, not many of them a likely.

If we're going to argue for patience, we should be saying WHY Saleh deserves patience based on Saleh. 

Not on Chuck Knoll once having defied the bad-first-year-odds.

I think you are overreacting. 

I'm not saying that Saleh is going to buck the trend and be a good coach. Most coaches fail and we have seen nothing to indicate that Saleh will be any different. 

But 10 games in, we also still have to see what Saleh does over the next year and change. 

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1 hour ago, Peace Frog said:

Exactly.  But when you think about how likely decent this past draft is and the draft capital we have, we might be building a solid roster.  If Bechton and Mims rebound, 2020 won't look so bad either.  Hell, if Bechton becomes a stud LT, it's almost good right there.  Big if but still.  

Not to be cynical but it’s hard to imagine Becton won’t be injured or ill 5-minutes after being on the field again. 

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19 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Agreed. There’s not a mock out there that doesn’t have us taking Stingley Jr… The biggest disappointment on this defense is that QW looks like another high pick who is merely “pretty good,” and who will almost certainly see free agency.

His brother kicks ass though.

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1 minute ago, slimjasi said:

I think you are overreacting. 

I'm not saying that Saleh is going to buck the trend and be a good coach. Most coaches fail and we have seen nothing indicate that Saleh will be any different. 

But 10 games in, we also still have to see what Saleh does over the next year and change. 

If Zach Wilson becomes a good QB and JD has a good offseason, Robert Saleh will be a good coach.  If both of those things prove untrue, Robert Saleh will be a bad coach.

None of this will be contingent on how much we want to believe that there’s a lot more to it then that.

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11 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

I’d take the other side of that action.

Every HC that I can think of who quit an NFL contract for non-health or scandal reasons (and forewent getting paid out) ran back to college. Saleh didn’t come from college ranks and isn’t getting poached by an NCAA team. And obviously no NFL team is going to tamper and steal him. Why would he walk from the guaranteed portion of his contract? He would not.

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Remember when Ulbrich said "that's a better question to ask during the offseason"?  That is because nobody is losing their jobs and they've all been guaranteed at least next season.  They've convinced Woody on the rebuild and the process and now they've convinced Woody's boo sauce, Rex Ryan on the rebuild.   If the Jets win another game or 2, they're right on schedule with presesaon predictions of 4/5, so yeah, it's not fun, the optics sucks and there is really nothing to look at for encouragement but nobody is losing their jobs over this season. 

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2 minutes ago, jgb said:

Every HC that I can think of who quit an NFL contract for non-health or scandal reasons (and forewent getting paid out) ran back to college. Saleh didn’t come from college ranks and isn’t getting poached by an NCAA team. And obviously no NFL team is going to tamper and steal him. Why would he walk from the guaranteed portion of his contract? He would not.

Shhhh… You’re talking him out of my guaranteed money.

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2 hours ago, Namath99 said:

What was the learning curve for Frank Reich, Jim Harbaugh?  Even Rex got to a AFCG as a rookie HC with a rookie qb

Every circumstance is different no? Colts with a top 10 QB and established players, Rex with Mangini's players set, then failed miserably with his own, Harbargh stepping into a successful established organization with arguably the best GM.  

Maybe Frank Reich had the least help of the 3 mentioned.

Where is Saleh's crutch to lean on? The answer, there is there is none. The only answer is to weather the storm. What realistic choice is there? Fire another HC ? What credible replacement would come here knowing if you dont succeed immediately you're fired? 

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50 minutes ago, Green DNA said:

I would probably rent a house in the meantime rather than keep my family in a hotel room for six months.  

Seems like a better option. First time I've even heard of his situation was today and cant find it anywhere else. Definitely doesnt excuse him from being critiqued and his team laying a total egg too many times this season, but also doesnt help the situation

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10 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

If Zach Wilson becomes a good QB and JD has a good offseason, Robert Saleh will be a good coach.  If both of those things prove untrue, Robert Saleh will be a bad coach.

None of this will be contingent on how much we want to believe that there’s a lot more to it then that.

Probably, yes

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10 minutes ago, Copernicus said:

Every circumstance is different no? Colts with a top 10 QB and established players, Rex with Mangini's players set, then failed miserably with his own, Harbargh stepping into a successful established organization with arguably the best GM.  

Maybe Frank Reich had the least help of the 3 mentioned.

Where is Saleh's crutch to lean on? The answer, there is there is none. The only answer is to weather the storm. What realistic choice is there? Fire another HC ? What credible replacement would come here knowing if you dont succeed immediately you're fired? 

Saleh is utterly untouchable until Gase is off the books at bare minimum which is at the end of the 2022 season.

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22 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

We fundamentally disagree here. All first year coaches deserve patience.

Yes, we disagree. IMO patience is earned by showing something worth investing more time into, it's not automatic just because.

22 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

You aren't firing him after one season, regardless. 

Agree, JD and Saleh will almost assuredly get 2022 and 2023 before any moves are made.

What I would do, and what the Johnsons do, are often different. 

And we see the results of what the Johnson's do.

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2 hours ago, Namath99 said:

What was the learning curve for Frank Reich, Jim Harbaugh?  Even Rex got to a AFCG as a rookie HC with a rookie qb

You are ignoring the learning curve for Bellicheat and Pete Carroll. 

Zac Taylor was also mocked and ridiculed after going 2-14 his first year (during a rebuild)and then went 4-11-1 last year. 

This forum would have been flying banners to get him fired after year 1, let alone year 2. 

Bengals are now 6-4. 

I have not been a huge fan of Saleh, but firing head coaches after 1 year during a rebuild is generally not a good idea. First off, Lafleur seems to be maturing well into his position so if you fire Saleh you likely lose Lafleur and have to re-teach the team all new systems. Second, coaches get better. Just like rookie QBs. 

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1 hour ago, Green DNA said:

I would probably rent a house in the meantime rather than keep my family in a hotel room for six months.  

Assuming he has multiple rooms in the hotel. Bizarre story though. Like dont buy a house that needs that much work during your first year as a HC in a place you've never lived before.

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1 hour ago, jetstream23 said:

Bryce Hall would be a CB2 on most other NFL teams. He’s currently about the fourth best player on the entire defense.

That tells you all you need to know.

Seriously, list the starting defenders and ask yourself if there is any reason this D should be better than the bottom 10 in the league.

I think Ashtyn Davis has the longest NFL tenure out of anyone who played in the secondary yesterday.

and thats why its got to be defense with the first 3-4 picks in the draft. 

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16 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Assuming he has multiple rooms in the hotel. Bizarre story though. Like dont buy a house that needs that much work during your first year as a HC in a place you've never lived before.

Kinda weird not to rent a house. Stressful job living in a hotel, brutal.

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1 hour ago, ZachEY said:

Agreed. There’s not a mock out there that doesn’t have us taking Stingley Jr… The biggest disappointment on this defense is that QW looks like another high pick who is merely “pretty good,” and who will almost certainly see free agency.

I'll push back on QW a bit.  There's no doubt we haven't seen a difference maker in him yet, but I think he's better than "pretty good." 

He's also not getting a ton of snaps for some reason.  There seems to be an intentional routine with him and the entire D Line.  I knew Saleh liked to rotate guys on the D Line but I would have hoped we'd skew a bit more heavily to keeping the best guys on the field more often.

Amongst DTs Quinnen Williams is 5th in sacks but he's 31st in snaps.

 

 

 

Yesterday...

 

From a few weeks ago.

 

I think a holding penalty kept him from adding another sack to his stat sheet yesterday.

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6 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

I'll push back on QW a bit.  There's no doubt we haven't seen a difference maker in him yet, but I think he's better than "pretty good." 

He's also not getting a ton of snaps for some reason.  There seems to be an intentional routine with him and the entire D Line.  I knew Saleh liked to rotate guys on the D Line but I would have hoped we'd skew a bit more heavily to keeping the best guys on the field more often.

Amongst DTs Quinnen Williams is 5th in sacks but he's 31st in snaps.

 

 

 

Yesterday...

 

From a few weeks ago.

 

I think a holding penalty kept him from adding another sack to his stat sheet yesterday.

Quinnen, in a good defense, would be a superstar.  Considering our issues at DB, LBer and zero edge rush it's pretty much impossible for an interior guy to flash in a way that is noticeable during games. 

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16 minutes ago, doitny said:

and thats why its got to be defense with the first 3-4 picks in the draft. 

There's no doubt we need a talent infusion on D but I can't support using all of the first 3-4 picks on D.  It all obviously depends on how the Draft falls and what the Jets do in FA, but I'd use one 1st on D and one 2nd on D, maybe a premier Edge rusher and a CB.  Again, this assumes the Jets do some things in FA at a position like LB to supplement the promising but unknown guys like Sherwood and Nasirildeen.

The Jets still need to address the O though.  If a guy like the Center Linderbaum is there in the 1st (after a trade down maybe?) it will be hard not to grab him.  We need to find out next great young Center.  We were spoiled with Nick Mangold who followed a HOF'er in Kevin Mawae.  It's time to get the anchor for the OLine.... a guy who will have a trickle down effect to both the left and right of him.

Unfortunately there don't seem to be many top TE talents in this Draft but that's another area I'd address no later than Day 2 if I'm the Jets.

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2 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

Quinnen, in a good defense, would be a superstar.  Considering our issues at DB, LBer and zero edge rush it's pretty much impossible for an interior guy to flash in a way that is noticeable during games. 

Yup, and I was just sharing some pass rush information.  In 2020, he was the highest graded run-stopper out of ALL INTERIOR DLINEMEN according to PFF.

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1 hour ago, ZachEY said:

If Zach Wilson becomes a good QB and JD has a good offseason, Robert Saleh will be a good coach.  If both of those things prove untrue, Robert Saleh will be a bad coach.

None of this will be contingent on how much we want to believe that there’s a lot more to it then that.

Except there is   

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59 minutes ago, Warfish said:

 

If we're going to argue for patience, we should be saying WHY Saleh deserves patience based on Saleh. 

Not on Chuck Knoll once having defied the bad-first-year-odds.

how about that our defense is really bad but yet there are 4 games that could have been won in spite of that. 

and surprisingly some people here still want to ignore defense un the 1st rd next year over some center.

Carolina 5 pts...Atlanta 7 pts .....Miami 7 pts .... thats 3 for sure and maybe even Indy.

so thats a 5-5 record. not bad. 6-4 if you think Indy was winnable. 

he was right on benching Mims. he was not ready. 

he was right that White could be a backup.  

give this guy some LBs with fresh legs and a shut down CB and Edge and a safety whatever order you want and this could be a really good team. 

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