How early is too early for Tyler Linderbaum?

[BurntDice]

40 minutes ago, PLO said:

 This is not the player you want with a top 10 overall pick, even accounting for the fact there are more premium positions we should be targeting with those picks. 

This is what I was getting at. People value centers far too heavily. Whenever I see him mocked top 10 I just roll my eyes. If we were picking in the 20s then I’d be ok with it. A lot of teams will rule him out because like you said he’s small. He fits this scheme very well, but 3/4 of the league he won’t be a good fit. I think he would 100% be great in this system, however we already have a top 10 center and they don’t really move the needle much unless you have a bad one. 

[kdels62]

1 hour ago, PLO said:

Some people here have him top 10 overall, which is absurd, he can't move the line of scrimmage on his own and in fact has been rag-dolled numerous times this season by college level d-linemen when one-on-one. He's good out in space but that's like 15% of what his job will be in the NFL. 

He's an undersized C that requires good guard play around him to protect his physical short-comings. He's not half the prospect Nick Mangold was and Mangold was taken at the end of the first round back in the day. 

People here who would take him top 10, hell, even top 20 are out of their minds. I wouldn't take him in the first two rounds with the picks the Jets are likely to have in those rounds. Round 3 is where he enters the conversation for me. 

Show him being rag dolled

[PLO]

30 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Show him being rag dolled

He couldn't move Christopher Hinton last week one on one, Hinton handled him with ease en route to the 2nd highest pass rushing grade over the entire weekend. Hinton definitely shoved around a number of times one on one if you watch the tape. Hinton, despite his bloodlines, isn't exactly a top prospect and Linderbaum couldn't cope with him without assistance from his guards. 

This is the issue, Linderbaum is not a top prospect, not even at his position. If you pick a C in the first round, let alone the top 10 overall, he has to be historically great for you to pick him. He probably should also display some versatility, of which Linderbaum does not have. Like this guy is going to get stoned and pancaked repeatedly in the NFL at the line of scrimmage. 

[kdels62]

Just now, PLO said:

He couldn't move Christopher Hinton last week one on one, Hinton handled him with ease en route to the 2nd highest pass rushing grade over the entire weekend. Hinton definitely shoved around a number of times one on one if you watch the tape. Hinton, despite his bloodlines, isn't exactly a top prospect and Linderbaum couldn't cope with him without assistance from his guards. 

This is the issue, Linderbaum is not a top prospect, not even at his position. If you pick a C in the first round, let alone the top 10 overall, he has to be historically great for you to pick him. He probably should also display some versatility, of which Linderbaum does not have. Like this guy is going to get stoned and pancaked repeatedly in the NFL at the line of scrimmage. 

Okay. Show not tell. Linderbaum’s guards are not good players and yet Linderbaum didn’t really struggle on the inside and only gave up 1 pressure. He did get beat on a hesitation move. Against Michigan his biggest weakness was finding the LB after peeling off the DT. 

Besides the actual tape, he is historically that good. Giving up less than 20 pressures in 34 games throughout his career.  He’s also the best run blocking center in college football who is better at zone runs than gap plays because he’s Elite at zone runs while merely only very good at gap plays. 

[Hal N of Provo]

2 hours ago, PLO said:

Some people here have him top 10 overall, which is absurd, he can't move the line of scrimmage on his own and in fact has been rag-dolled numerous times this season by college level d-linemen when one-on-one. He's good out in space but that's like 15% of what his job will be in the NFL. 

He's an undersized C that requires good guard play around him to protect his physical short-comings. He's not half the prospect Nick Mangold was and Mangold was taken at the end of the first round back in the day. 

People here who would take him top 10, hell, even top 20 are out of their minds. I wouldn't take him in the first two rounds with the picks the Jets are likely to have in those rounds. Round 3 is where he enters the conversation for me. 

Can you find some YouTube examples of him being rag dolled. No worries if not, just everything I’ve seen he’s been dominate. 

[PLO]

Also, look at the position across the NFL: most of the best centers were taken in the fourth round or so and most have a good 20 lbs on Linderbaum, and most of them are way stronger than Linderbaum and can handle one on one assignments. This love for him among Jets fans in the top 10 is completely bonkers. If you're taking an O lineman in the top 10 in the draft his name had better be Evan Neal else you should just look at drafting another position. 

Having said that, I'm not in favor of drafting another O lineman that high given it would have to be a tackle to justify the pick. We have our tackles and can solidify the line later in the draft. 

 

[PLO]

7 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Okay. Show not tell. Linderbaum’s guards are not good players and yet Linderbaum didn’t really struggle on the inside and only gave up 1 pressure. He did get beat on a hesitation move. Against Michigan his biggest weakness was finding the LB after peeling off the DT. 

Besides the actual tape, he is historically that good. Giving up less than 20 pressures in 34 games throughout his career.  He’s also the best run blocking center in college football who is better at zone runs than gap plays because he’s Elite at zone runs while merely only very good at gap plays. 

Watch the tape again, he had to have guard help to deal with Hinton. He is not a road-grader in the run, he's going to actually bad for the run at the next level because he's too light. He's good in space, but at the line of scrimmage? How did he establish any sort of run against Michigan? I don't have ready made clips to fire up to show his deficiencies, but I truly hope this stupidity of the Giants taking him with their first pick is true, because let the reach happen to them, not to us. 

 

Citing stats for the college level is non-sensical, does his tape show that he will transfer something to the next level to justify a first or second round pick for a C? To me, it doesn't. If I were to take IOL with a high pick it would be Ekwonu, but I think he's also a reach anywhere inside the top 15. 

[PLO]

22 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Can you find some YouTube examples of him being rag dolled. No worries if not, just everything I’ve seen he’s been dominate. 

Turnstile! 

 

[PLO]

He's so dominant! A generational prospect! [when he's able to be part of a double team]

[BurntDice]

27 minutes ago, PLO said:

He's so dominant! A generational prospect! [when he's able to be part of a double team]

heres a few of him dominating non double teams. Also centers generally chip block with the guard then move onto the next level while run blocking. During pass protection they help the guards with the dts if there isn’t a blitzer. So yes there are generally a lot of double teams for centers. Linderbaum is regarded so highly because he’s excellent in space and can pull with the best of them. In a wide zone offense that’s huge. Again I don’t want him in the first because I don’t value centers that high, but the player himself is excellent. 

[PLO]

2 hours ago, BurntDice said:

heres a few of him dominating non double teams. Also centers generally chip block with the guard then move onto the next level while run blocking. During pass protection they help the guards with the dts if there isn’t a blitzer. So yes there are generally a lot of double teams for centers. Linderbaum is regarded so highly because he’s excellent in space and can pull with the best of them. In a wide zone offense that’s huge. Again I don’t want him in the first because I don’t value centers that high, but the player himself is excellent. 

 

All that tape shows is Linderbaum is good at blocking line-backers. Great! You can get to the second level and push someone back 80 lbs lighter than you. Kudos. 

The issue is not him in space, the issue is him at the line of scrimmage, as per my previous posts. If this guy was a first rounder as a center he *should* be dominating in every area *and* should have some positional versatility, which he doesn't have. 

Compare him to a Cesar Ruiz from a few years ago. Ruiz was a far better prospect than Linderbaum, bigger, stronger, as good in space and dominant at the line of scrimmage *and* Ruiz is now playing RG in the NFL showing positional versatility. However, Ruiz hasn't even been good as a center in the NFL! He was a better college prospect than Linderbaum is and was graded out as a second rounder by many before being picked in the late first round by the Saints.  If we draft Linderbaum and he doesn't work out at center (which is well on the cards given his size) where does he play? He can't play at guard, he's too light. What you have is a backup center in that case. A first round pick well spent. 

This is to emphasize, this thing of "Linderbaum in the first" is craziness. You do not take centers in the first round unless you're picking at the butt end of it and are staring at a Nick Mangold (who, to reiterate, was a far better prospect than Linderbaum is). Reading over this thread people here are acting like Linberbaum is the second coming of Quenton Nelson which is ludicrous. 

[BurntDice]

6 hours ago, PLO said:

 

All that tape shows is Linderbaum is good at blocking line-backers. Great! You can get to the second level and push someone back 80 lbs lighter than you. Kudos. 

The issue is not him in space, the issue is him at the line of scrimmage, as per my previous posts. If this guy was a first rounder as a center he *should* be dominating in every area *and* should have some positional versatility, which he doesn't have. 

Compare him to a Cesar Ruiz from a few years ago. Ruiz was a far better prospect than Linderbaum, bigger, stronger, as good in space and dominant at the line of scrimmage *and* Ruiz is now playing RG in the NFL showing positional versatility. However, Ruiz hasn't even been good as a center in the NFL! He was a better college prospect than Linderbaum is and was graded out as a second rounder by many before being picked in the late first round by the Saints.  If we draft Linderbaum and he doesn't work out at center (which is well on the cards given his size) where does he play? He can't play at guard, he's too light. What you have is a backup center in that case. A first round pick well spent. 

This is to emphasize, this thing of "Linderbaum in the first" is craziness. You do not take centers in the first round unless you're picking at the butt end of it and are staring at a Nick Mangold (who, to reiterate, was a far better prospect than Linderbaum is). Reading over this thread people here are acting like Linberbaum is the second coming of Quenton Nelson which is ludicrous. 

Ruiz was not nearly as good in space as linderbaum. Linderbaum is much faster and and quicker. I agree that he’s not a perfect prospect because of his size, but in certain schemes he fits very well. He won’t fit for over half of the teams and half of those teams don’t need a center nonetheless a first round center. If he falls to the second I would think about drafting him depending on who’s on the board. You definitely make some good points though, he’s not some world beater that people are making him out to be. Centers generally aren’t that important, yet people are obsessed with them because we’ve had 2 HOF guys in the past so they think elite center =elite ol, which is very far from the truth. 

[sec101row23]

6 hours ago, PLO said:

 

All that tape shows is Linderbaum is good at blocking line-backers. Great! You can get to the second level and push someone back 80 lbs lighter than you. Kudos. 

The issue is not him in space, the issue is him at the line of scrimmage, as per my previous posts. If this guy was a first rounder as a center he *should* be dominating in every area *and* should have some positional versatility, which he doesn't have. 

Compare him to a Cesar Ruiz from a few years ago. Ruiz was a far better prospect than Linderbaum, bigger, stronger, as good in space and dominant at the line of scrimmage *and* Ruiz is now playing RG in the NFL showing positional versatility. However, Ruiz hasn't even been good as a center in the NFL! He was a better college prospect than Linderbaum is and was graded out as a second rounder by many before being picked in the late first round by the Saints.  If we draft Linderbaum and he doesn't work out at center (which is well on the cards given his size) where does he play? He can't play at guard, he's too light. What you have is a backup center in that case. A first round pick well spent. 

This is to emphasize, this thing of "Linderbaum in the first" is craziness. You do not take centers in the first round unless you're picking at the butt end of it and are staring at a Nick Mangold (who, to reiterate, was a far better prospect than Linderbaum is). Reading over this thread people here are acting like Linberbaum is the second coming of Quenton Nelson which is ludicrous. 

You make some good points regarding Linderbaum.   The position versatility thing is important to note IMO.  Elgton Jenkins comes to mind.   He had dominant tape in the SEC and was projected as a center and guard.  Even he went in the second round at pick 44.   He’s since played center, guard and tackle in the NFL at a very high level.  
 

 

[UntouchableCrew]

On 12/13/2021 at 2:51 AM, PLO said:

Compare him to a Cesar Ruiz from a few years ago. Ruiz was a far better prospect than Linderbaum, bigger, stronger, as good in space and dominant at the line of scrimmage *and* Ruiz is now playing RG in the NFL showing positional versatility. However, Ruiz hasn't even been good as a center in the NFL! He was a better college prospect than Linderbaum is and was graded out as a second rounder by many before being picked in the late first round by the Saints.  If we draft Linderbaum and he doesn't work out at center (which is well on the cards given his size) where does he play? He can't play at guard, he's too light. What you have is a backup center in that case. A first round pick well spent. 

 

Except that Ruiz wasn't a better prospect than Linderbaum.

[PLO]

2 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Except that Ruiz wasn't a better prospect than Linderbaum.

Except he is. In NFL terms, Linderbaum is tiny. 

[UntouchableCrew]

3 minutes ago, PLO said:

Except he is. In NFL terms, Linderbaum is tiny. 

So was Kevin Mawae. When you're a technician who can pull like that it doesn't matter, especially in this offense.

[PLO]

2 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

So was Kevin Mawae. When you're a technician who can pull like that it doesn't matter, especially in this offense.

Ahh, so he's Kevin Mawae now? Ever heard of an exception that proves the rule? This thread gets more and more ridiculous. This convo has jumped the shark well and truly. He's not worth a first round pick, let alone where the Jets picks are at. 

[UntouchableCrew]

3 minutes ago, PLO said:

Ahh, so he's Kevin Mawae now? Ever heard of an exception that proves the rule? This thread gets more and more ridiculous. This convo has jumped the shark well and truly. He's not worth a first round pick, let alone where the Jets picks are at. 

You're certainly entitled to your opinion -- but you're in the severe minority. The consensus seems to be he's one of the best center prospects in a very long time.

[PLO]

11 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

You're certainly entitled to your opinion -- but you're in the severe minority. The consensus seems to be he's one of the best center prospects in a very long time.

"severe minority", probably among fans, not among the people who actually count. 

[UntouchableCrew]

12 hours ago, PLO said:

"severe minority", probably among fans, not among the people who actually count. 

Ha, okay pal.

[kdels62]

1 hour ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Ha, okay pal.

It’s a weirdly elaborate troll job. That’s why I ducked out of the convo.

[PLO]

9 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Ha, okay pal.

Even the positive articles on him point out his lack of size and versatility like this 

Also, people connected to the scouting community do not rate him as highly as fans here do. 

[UntouchableCrew]

5 minutes ago, PLO said:

Even the positive articles on him point out his lack of size and versatility like this 

Also, people connected to the scouting community do not rate him as highly as fans here do. 

So you'd wager money he won't be a first round pick then?

[PLO]

1 minute ago, UntouchableCrew said:

So you'd wager money he won't be a first round pick then?

That's not any sort of measure of his worth as a player, now is it? Especially when you see some of the GMs in this league. Without pointing fingers to any other franchises, the Jets picked Calvin Pryor in the first round not too many moons ago. 

He may well get picked in the first round, I don't think he's a first round talent, however, and the Jets should avoid him at all costs with their first two picks.

[UntouchableCrew]

51 minutes ago, PLO said:

That's not any sort of measure of his worth as a player, now is it? Especially when you see some of the GMs in this league. Without pointing fingers to any other franchises, the Jets picked Calvin Pryor in the first round not too many moons ago. 

He may well get picked in the first round, I don't think he's a first round talent, however, and the Jets should avoid him at all costs with their first two picks.

Regardless of whether he’s a first round talent you’re arguing that NFL front offices don’t view him that way, only rube fans do. I think you’re wrong.

[kdels62]

55 minutes ago, PLO said:

That's not any sort of measure of his worth as a player, now is it? Especially when you see some of the GMs in this league. Without pointing fingers to any other franchises, the Jets picked Calvin Pryor in the first round not too many moons ago. 

He may well get picked in the first round, I don't think he's a first round talent, however, and the Jets should avoid him at all costs with their first two picks.

Literally, the only measure that matters?

Also Dane Brugler and PFF have him in their top 10 players on their big boards.

[PLO]

41 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Regardless of whether he’s a first round talent you’re arguing that NFL front offices don’t view him that way, only rube fans do. I think you’re wrong.

That's not what I'm arguing, I'm arguing some FOs are clueless, and I don't think that's disputable. Taking an underweight C in the first round is something that will lead to unemployment for those making the pick. 

[PLO]

46 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Literally, the only measure that matters?

Also Dane Brugler and PFF have him in their top 10 players on their big boards.

Well, others don't, these people are in the media/content producing business for a reason. 

If you're taking a center top 10, he had better tick every box possible. Linderbaum does not

[Hal N of Provo]

Just now, PLO said:

Well, others don't, these people are in the media/content producing business for a reason. 

If you're taking a center top 10, he had better tick every box possible. Linderbaum does not

Seems reasonable.  There are top 10 OLine in this draft though.  I’m not sure it the desperate need it was earlier in the season but I wouldn’t be sad to see the OLine upgraded.  

[PLO]

6 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Seems reasonable.  There are top 10 OLine in this draft though.  I’m not sure it the desperate need it was earlier in the season but I wouldn’t be sad to see the OLine upgraded.  

That I agree with. I think the first two picks will be D however, as it stands. There are good IOL prospects to be had in later rounds. 

[Fantasy Island]

How do you all not see this?

2020 LT

2021 LG

2022 C

2023 RG

2024 RT

It’s not the DaVinci code.

Pick Edge then Center.

Scherff at 4 was a great pick for Washington 

[PLO]

10 hours ago, Fantasy Island said:

How do you all not see this?

2020 LT

2021 LG

2022 C

2023 RG

2024 RT

It’s not the DaVinci code.

Pick Edge then Center.

Scherff at 4 was a great pick for Washington 

So he's Kevin Mawae and now Brandon Scherff (the latter of whom is 25 lbs heavier, could play anywhere on the O line, the consensus number one offensive lineman in his draft, who was actually beaten out of a tackle spot at Washington by the NY Jets own......Morgan Moses). Got it. 

Edit: changed the word guard to tackle to make it correct. 

[HawkeyeJet]

Donated his NIL money earned this season to the U of I children's hospital 

 

[Barton]

I like Tyler too but drafting him in the top 15 doesnt move the needle for this team. 

Jets fans need to get over this "we need the next nick mangold!!!" thing. Mangold was a helluva player. He also didnt change many games vs having a McGovern type at center. 

We need 1st rd picks who can change the game on a given sunday. Playmakers. 

[Lith]

Just saw this today. Linderbaum used his NIL deal to raise/donate money for the Iowa Chidren's hospital.  According to the article, 100% of profits went to the Hospital.  Not sure he is the best option for us, but given this kid's character, he will be a welcome addition to any team and the local community they play in.