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Would Joe Douglas have the guts to do what the AZ Cardinals did with Josh Rosen?


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8 minutes ago, maury77 said:

That's accurate, but some voiced concerns about how long a player that big would be able to stay healthy given his size (I wasn't one of these people, but I did read it). 

Sure, I think the concern is fair but not drafting large players because of that concern is an issue as well. 

My over arching point is that the issue with Becton is not talent recognition.

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9 minutes ago, maury77 said:

To be blunt, I really disliked Wilson coming out of BYU for the reasons we have seen on full display throughout this season. There is no way in hell Douglas is going to get rid of Wilson. I'm not even sure Douglas keeps his job here if Wilson doesn't pan out. How many GMs have survived 2 QBs picked in the top 3 busting?

Seeing as JD only picked one of them, not sure about that lmao...

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11 minutes ago, maury77 said:

To be blunt, I really disliked Wilson coming out of BYU for the reasons we have seen on full display throughout this season. There is no way in hell Douglas is going to get rid of Wilson. I'm not even sure Douglas keeps his job here if Wilson doesn't pan out. How many GMs have survived 2 QBs picked in the top 3 busting?

Sam was a product of McCagnon the dickhead to be fair.    

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31 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

He also gave GVR a 3 year deal, drafted 29 yard punts Mann, brought in Amendola and drafted Wilson. All 3 tried as hard as they could to make the Jets lose this game 

What part of GVRs $3m per year led you to believe he was meant to be a solution to our OL issue and not a stop gap? Haha

29 yard punt Mann was a 6th round pick which nets you a 4% chance of landing a starter. If his average punt was 29 yards maybe I'd be upset.

Kicker has been an issue, definitely not for a lack of trying. Kicker is sort of an odd position because of the shaky nature of success vs failure. Case in point Matt Vanderjagt was one of the most accurate kickers ever, guy points to the sideline before an attempt in the playoffs, missed and never kicked the same after that.

Wilson is the biggest issue, what should have the plan been? You don't trade down and draft a QB, so should we have been pounding the table for Mac Jones at #2?

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1 hour ago, Barton said:

Zach might develop, but WHO is going to help him develop? Kid is lost out there. 

And to top it off he said his knee wasnt even 100% today. WHY THE F IS HE PLAYING THEN!!?? 

WTF is this team doing to this kid?!

He looked exactly like he did all season. It’s not the injury. Everyone is hurting in the NFL. Matthew Stafford has to inject himself to the gills just to move his arm.

The excuses are pretty sad. He looks absolutely abysmal. The game looks too fast for him like it did for Jake Locker.

The great QB’s make the hard plays look easy. No good QB ever looks this bad doing the simple things. He’s missing wide open guys within 10 yards multiple times a game. That just doesn’t happen with good QB’s. It‘s automatic. 

We’ve seen the offence look significantly better with Joe Flacco, Mike White and f*cking Josh Johnson. Rarely with the Jets has it been so obvious that the QB is the the problem. Even Darnold just felt like another bad part of a bad team. Wilson is actively holding that group back. He’s not gonna make it. 

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3 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

What part of GVRs $3m per year led you to believe he was meant to be a solution to our OL issue and not a stop gap? Haha

29 yard punt Mann was a 6th round pick which nets you a 4% chance of landing a starter. If his average punt was 29 yards maybe I'd be upset.

Kicker has been an issue, definitely not for a lack of trying. Kicker is sort of an odd position because of the shaky nature of success vs failure. Case in point Matt Vanderjagt was one of the most accurate kickers ever, guy points to the sideline before an attempt in the playoffs, missed and never kicked the same after that.

Wilson is the biggest issue, what should have the plan been? You don't trade down and draft a QB, so should we have been pounding the table for Mac Jones at #2?

When both your field goal kicker and a 100 year old injury replacement in morestad is vastly better than your 6th round punter that is an issue.

Mann stinks.

Douglas has not even tired to solve the fg kicking, he has gone through about 6 or 7 kicker in two years.

Douglas has done some good and disciplined things and made some good picks but he has a blind spot in some areas that might take him down.

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2 minutes ago, maury77 said:

Douglas didn't pick Darnold, but Darnold was still considered a talented player coming off his rookie season when Douglas took over. 

JD's first year was about evaluating this team with GASE in charge. Once he made his decision to part ways with Gase, the plan was set to reset this team with a new HC and players for that HC. You may like or not like what he has done since then, but he seems to be on a good path with a very promising 2021 draft class, with a few from the 2020 draft sprinkled in. My decision year for JD is this upcoming year's FA class and Draft. If he blows this, then I don't think I would be able to support him anymore, however if he does what I hope he does and gets Linderbaum, and Thib's in the first round, then I believe he should be setting this team up with a good young nucleus...

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AFAIC, the Jets should be planning on drafting a QB in round 1, especially if Zach Wilson continues to play like crap.  Joe Douglas can not bet another year that Wilson isn't a bust and he actually has comps from games with the other QBs to prove it.  Another high school level game from Zach and Douglas Plan A has to be to draft a QB in rd 1. If not, then Douglas is an incompetent and we are in big trouble.  That would be like a more intensified Maccagnan/Hackenburg redo.  

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I like almost all of Douglas' process moves - he's had his share of misses but it seems like there's a plan at least (the bar is low around here). Wilson always seemed like an odd guy to bet the farm on though. I think they're pretty tied at the hip unless Douglas manages to build a stacked team and can point to everything but the qb. That's a fairly unlikely scenario 

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3 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

He looked exactly like he did all season. It’s not the injury. Everyone is hurting in the NFL. Matthew Stafford has to inject himself to the gills just to move his arm.

The excuses are pretty sad. He looks absolutely abysmal. The game looks too fast for him like it did for Jake Locker.

The great QB’s make the hard plays look easy. No good QB ever looks this bad doing the simple things. He’s missing wide open guys within 10 yards multiple times a game. That just doesn’t happen with good QB’s. It‘s automatic. 

We’ve seen the offence look significantly better with Joe Flacco, Mike White and f*cking Josh Johnson. Rarely with the Jets has it been so obvious that the QB is the the problem. Even Darnold just felt like another bad part of a bad team. Wilson is actively holding that group back. He’s not gonna make it. 

I wish I could argue but sadly every word above is true. 

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15 minutes ago, Saul Goodman said:

Best comp for Zach is Geno Smith. Similar college production, strong arm, erratic accuracy, athletic but doesn’t run/scramble effectively, poor decision-making.
 

Zach is a good kid so he is easier to root for than Geno, but things don’t look good

I just wrote in another thread he reminds me of Geno Smith....what scares me the most is his lack of pocket presence and the game just moving too fast for him...I can't remember when a young QB with pocket presence issues turned out to be great....you either have it or you don't. 

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2 hours ago, Stark said:

What about Zackenberg gives you that feeling. The guy is trashing the most simple of passes that career back-ups make when he’s not in the lineup and we have 400+ yd offensive performances. 
 

I hope that he can get his head out of his a$$ and prove to be the qb but the stuff he’s missing are things that no nfl qb should struggle with

I share that hope. I think he'll get there.

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11 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

He looked exactly like he did all season. It’s not the injury. Everyone is hurting in the NFL. Matthew Stafford has to inject himself to the gills just to move his arm.

The excuses are pretty sad. He looks absolutely abysmal. The game looks too fast for him like it did for Jake Locker.

The great QB’s make the hard plays look easy. No good QB ever looks this bad doing the simple things. He’s missing wide open guys within 10 yards multiple times a game. That just doesn’t happen with good QB’s. It‘s automatic. 

We’ve seen the offence look significantly better with Joe Flacco, Mike White and f*cking Josh Johnson. Rarely with the Jets has it been so obvious that the QB is the the problem. Even Darnold just felt like another bad part of a bad team. Wilson is actively holding that group back. He’s not gonna make it. 

You might be right. We will see.

But several Chiefs players thought Mahomes was terrible in his first training camp. Missing throws, technique was bad etc.

Andy Reid and his staff coached him up and the rest is history. And he also sat to start the season of course. 

Wilson does not have an Andy Reid to guide him. 

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32 minutes ago, maury77 said:

To be blunt, I really disliked Wilson coming out of BYU for the reasons we have seen on full display throughout this season. There is no way in hell Douglas is going to get rid of Wilson. I'm not even sure Douglas keeps his job here if Wilson doesn't pan out. How many GMs have survived 2 QBs picked in the top 3 busting?

you know he didnt pick Sam right? so who is the 2nd QB he drafted?

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9 hours ago, Saul Goodman said:

Best comp for Zach is Geno Smith. Similar college production, strong arm, erratic accuracy, athletic but doesn’t run/scramble effectively, poor decision-making.
 

Zach is a good kid so he is easier to root for than Geno, but things don’t look good

If you watched geno in college he played nothing like Zach. 90% of his yards were from dumpoffs to Tavon Austin. Zach made a ton of longer throws all over the field 

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12 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

When both your field goal kicker and a 100 year old injury replacement in morestad is vastly better than your 6th round punter that is an issue.

Mann stinks.

Again, I'm not going to waste too much brain energy on a 6th round punter. 

13 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Douglas has not even tired to solve the fg kicking, he has gone through about 6 or 7 kicker in two years.

Not tried to solve the issue while simultaneously trying 6 or 7 times. He's failed here but again, not for a lack of trying.

15 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Douglas has done some good and disciplined things and made some good picks but he has a blind spot in some areas that might take him down.

If those are his 2 blind spots I can live with it

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i will say this for the 10,000 time. JD just drafted the best Jets draft in 20 years. 4 really good starters at least. he is not getting fired. 

not over some punter or kicker. and not after 1 year of Wilson even if he busts.

and let Wilson be Wilson. he looked lost today because they are forcing him to play like White. 

he is not "check down Charlie" if they wanted a QB like that they shouldn't have let him go to NE. 

he got 6 games left this year to prove himself. today it looked like he took a step back. worried about making the short pass. we are trying to turn a gunslinger into a pea shooter cause White who is a peashooter had a great game being one. 

let the kid be himself.

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Just now, doitny said:

i will say this for the 10,000 time. JD just drafted the best Jets draft in 20 years. 4 really good starters at least. he is not getting fired. 

not over some punter or kicker. and not after 1 year of Wilson even if he busts.

and let Wilson be Wilson. he looked lost today because they are forcing him to play like White. 

he is not "check down Charlie" if they wanted a QB like that they shouldn't have let him go to NE. 

he got 6 games left this year to prove himself. today it looked like he took a step back. worried about making the short pass. we are trying to turn a gunslinger into a pea shooter cause White who is a peashooter had a great game being one. 

let the kid be himself.

Laughable.

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50 minutes ago, maury77 said:

To be blunt, I really disliked Wilson coming out of BYU for the reasons we have seen on full display throughout this season. There is no way in hell Douglas is going to get rid of Wilson. I'm not even sure Douglas keeps his job here if Wilson doesn't pan out. How many GMs have survived 2 QBs picked in the top 3 busting?

Say what?  If Wilson played the same way in college as you claim he's displaying now, he wouldn't have been a first round pick, never mind the second pick in the draft.  Who was the other QB Douglas picked in the top 3?  The only other QB Douglas drafted was Morgan in the 4th round.

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36 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Again, I'm not going to waste too much brain energy on a 6th round punter. 

Not tried to solve the issue while simultaneously trying 6 or 7 times. He's failed here but again, not for a lack of trying.

If those are his 2 blind spots I can live with it

I can't, you win with all three phases and if you miss the playoffs with a talented team because you can't kick a fg it is an issue.

In any case we do have bigger problems right now to worry about.

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6 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

The only thing worse than making a bad decision is not admitting it and not working to correct it.

The Cardinals made an incredibly difficult decision after just one year of having a top 10 drafted QB in Josh Rosen. It is turning out to be a career defining moment for GM Steve Keim.  Approaching your owner one year after you traded up to draft a QB and telling him you miscalculated and want to replace him is not an easy thing. It was the right thing though. The Cardinals with Kyler Murray are now at the top of the NFL.

Would JD have the balls to say to the Johnsons, “We may have got this wrong. While we are seeing several of the positives and strengths that we scouted in Wilson, the things that could not be evaluated until he got to the NFL are not looking great. He is struggling with the speed of the game, decision making, etc. at this level. In my experience, these things are difficult to correct. They could certainly improve, but they will always put a ceiling on what he can be. I’m not saying that we need to reach for another QB at the top of this upcoming draft but if there’s a guy there worthy of the pick we shouldn’t hesitate to take him.  We would be wise to look for competition and should always be looking to improve every position on the roster. That’s my job as the GM. Maybe that competition is already on this roster, but we should also look at free agency and the trade market.”

By the way, I don’t see any chance in hell that JD approaches the Johnsons with a conversation like the above even if he himself has significant doubts about Wilson.

This would be an interesting question if the Jets were in position to draft a Kyler Murray level QB prospect next year. In a thin QB draft, there's absolutely zero chance of it happening no matter how Wilson plays the rest of the way, so it's not a meaningful question.

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Just now, Beerfish said:

I can't, you win with all three phases and if you miss the playoffs with a talented team because you can't kick a fg it is an issue.

In any case we do have bigger problems right now to worry about.

I'd love to be at a point where Punter and Kicker were the reason we were losing games but we just aren't there yet.

I was a kicker and punter so believe me I'm not brushing them aside haha 

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7 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

He shouldn’t get the f*cking chance. 

You shouldn't get another chance to post on this forum......you wanted Wilson, you said Wilson is a sure thing, you insulted and downgraded anyone who said a bad word against Wilson. If Joe is sacked so should you be

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42 minutes ago, Doggin94it said:

This would be an interesting question if the Jets were in position to draft a Kyler Murray level QB prospect next year. In a thin QB draft, there's absolutely zero chance of it happening no matter how Wilson plays the rest of the way, so it's not a meaningful question.

I agree, and I'm beginning to see that what I was really asking isn't coming through.  Rosen was just a very high profile example but the real question is does Joe Douglas have the ability to admit a big mistake?  Would he put his reputation and the team above his own ego if he saw that Zach has a legitimate ceiling on his development that JD didn't see at the time of scouting?

Would JD essentially "go down with the ship," the ship being his dedication to proving that Wilson was the right pick, or would he cut losses and pivot to someone else (doesn't have to be a drafted player)?  If the Jets show progress, continue to add talent, the D improves and guys like AVT, Moore, and Carter are legit.... then would JD make a move to go after a Watson, a Garrapolo, an Aaron Rodgers... if he thought it puts the Jets into playoff contention?

Totally agree that this situation is different.  Rosen was a lower pick and the Jets won't have the ability to draft a Kyler Murray type in the Draft.... but the idea is still the same in that Steve Keim swallowed his pride and went to ownership saying, "the guy I traded up for isn't the answer.  We need to pivot."

Ironically, Douglas may have to do something similar this year if Becton continues to be a concern and Evan Neal is there for the taking in the Draft.

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6 hours ago, adobolo2 said:

You shouldn't get another chance to post on this forum......you wanted Wilson, you said Wilson is a sure thing, you insulted and downgraded anyone who said a bad word against Wilson. If Joe is sacked so should you be

I absolutely never said Wilson was a sure thing.

And imagine holding a poster to the standards of an NFL GM. You’re an embarrassment.

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