Why are we being so friggin impatient with Zach?

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

Why not trade Darnold and bring in an established -- if uninspiring -- cheap vet as the learning-on-the-job sacrificial lamb?

Darnold would be that cheap, uninspiring vet, though, no? 

[jgb]

12 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

As with Becton, they took the project player when maybe a safer, if less dynamic, prospect was on the board. Those that were skeptical of drafting Zach were largely skeptical because the Jets weren’t going to have  the infrastructure in place to develop a project, no matter how “talented” he might be. I think that has played out so far, and despite being afforded every available resource and every practice snap as a starter, from the start of camp until now, including an obligatory month off to “watch and learn,” he’s absolutely cratering, both in terms of his play and his confidence. He’s far enough into the season where fans should expect his arrow to be pointing up, but we’re seeing the opposite. I think even Saleh would acknowledge they screwed the pooch on whatever the development plan was, which necessitated bring John Beck in a few weeks ago (which I can’t imagine was cheap). Bottom line, we can all hope Wilson gets good, but anyone saying that he’s currently on a trajectory toward being good is simply trying too hard. 

I was butt fumbled last night for suggesting that Zach Wilson's stock has dropped -- or at best remained the same -- as the day he was drafted. 

Yet, they believe that they are the positive-minded Real Jets Fans™ because they believe ~100 players, coaches, staff, front office all suck and have failed one rookie QB.

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Darnold would be that cheap, uninspiring vet, though, no? 

Huge opportunity cost to not trade him last off season. I'd rather have the Panther picks and Tyrod Taylor eating the bullets for us this year.

[T0mShane]

3 minutes ago, jgb said:

I was butt fumbled last night for suggesting that Zach Wilson's stock has dropped -- or at best remained the same -- as the day he was drafted. 

Yet, they believe that they are the positive-minded Real Fans™ because they believe ~100 players, coaches, staff, front office all suck and have failed one rookie QB.

I believe today will be the first day Wilson has to run through a practice with his leg. If he’s even a little bit gimpy with it, it’s gonna get interesting. If—as Pauline surmised a few weeks ago—Zach wasn’t Saleh’s pick, and Saleh has a chance to run his program for the next six weeks with Joe Flacco instead of Zach, I think the temptation to IR Wilson will be thick, and I don’t think Team Wilson would hate it, either.

[Barton]

Hard to believe the Jets are trotting Wilson out there when his knee isnt 100% but of course they are.

 

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I believe today will be the first day Wilson has to run through a practice with his leg. If he’s even a little bit gimpy with it, it’s gonna get interesting. If—as Pauline surmised a few weeks ago—Zach wasn’t Saleh’s pick, and Saleh has a chance to run his program for the next six weeks with Joe Flacco instead of Zach, I think the temptation to IR Wilson will be thick, and I don’t think Team Wilson would hate it, either.

If Saleh wants to bench Wilson he's going to need sign-off from his boss, JD. I don't see it happening.

[T0mShane]

10 minutes ago, jgb said:

Huge opportunity cost to not trade him last off season. I'd rather have the Panther picks and Tyrod Taylor eating the bullets for us this year.

You’d lose the 2 and a 5 you got for Darnold, but you’d have gotten the multiple ones from the Niners to trade out of 2. It’s hindsight, but I’d rather have the clean slate at QB going into next season than have the Panther’s second and fifth we got from Darnold.

1 minute ago, jgb said:

If Saleh wants to bench Wilson he's going to need sign-off from his boss, JD. I don't see it happening.

I don’t know about that. JD’s other picks looked great when Zach wasn’t the QB. 

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

You’d lose the 2 and a 5 you got for Darnold, but you’d have gotten the multiple ones from the Niners to trade out of 2. It’s hindsight, but I’d rather have the clean slate at QB going into next season than have the Panther’s second and fifth we got from Darnold.

I don’t know about that. JD’s other picks looked great when Zach wasn’t the QB. 

You can have it all. Trade Darnold, trade down, bring in Tyrod or Trubisky or Teddy B all of which are currently on one year deals or the final year of their current deals. And all are dirt cheap. Could also have traded for Minshew who has 2 years left on his rookie deal and relegate him to the bench in 2022 for the "QB of the Future."

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

You’d lose the 2 and a 5 you got for Darnold, but you’d have gotten the multiple ones from the Niners to trade out of 2. It’s hindsight, but I’d rather have the clean slate at QB going into next season than have the Panther’s second and fifth we got from Darnold.

I don’t know about that. JD’s other picks looked great when Zach wasn’t the QB. 

JD is also a human with our incumbent instinct for self-preservation and he knows that fairly or unfairly his future is closely linked to Wilson.

[T0mShane]

3 minutes ago, jgb said:

You can have it all. Trade Darnold, trade down, bring in Tyrod or Trubisky or Teddy B all of which are currently on one year deals or the final year of their current deals. And all are dirt cheap. Could also have traded for Minshew who has 2 years left on his rookie deal and relegate him to the bench in 2022 for the "QB of the Future."

Fair points. A season of Minshew would have been fun, probably.

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

JD is also a human with our incumbent instinct for self-preservation and he knows that fairly or unfairly his future is closely linked to Wilson.

I think IR’ing Zach would do a lot more for Douglas’ short-term prospects than trotting Zach out there every week does at this point.

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Fair points. A season of Minshew would have been fun, probably.

I'd pay to see a bunch of New Jersey plumbers wearing fake handlebar moustaches in Metlife.

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

I think IR’ing Zach would do a lot more for Douglas’ short-term prospects than trotting Zach out there every week does at this point.

You are right that IR'ing would be a convenient face-saving maneuver. Still think Saleh would need JD's sign off to do it unless he breaks his arm or something. 

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

I'd pay to see a bunch of New Jersey plumbers wearing fake handlebar moustaches in Metlife.

You are right that IR'ing would be a convenient face-saving maneuver. Still think Saleh would need JD's sign off to do it unless he breaks his arm or something. 

Imagine what that closed-door conversation looks like with Saleh, Douglas, LaFleur, and Woody this afternoon if Zach is limping through practice. I think you’d get a vote of 4-0 for Flacco time.

[maury77]

34 minutes ago, jgb said:

Why not trade Darnold and bring in an established -- if uninspiring -- cheap vet as the learning-on-the-job sacrificial lamb?

Its Monday Morning QB on my part, but I think I would have stayed at 2 and taken Pitts (who likes like a potential hall of famer right now).

[Butterfield]

20 minutes ago, jgb said:

You can have it all. Trade Darnold, trade down, bring in Tyrod or Trubisky or Teddy B all of which are currently on one year deals or the final year of their current deals. And all are dirt cheap. Could also have traded for Minshew who has 2 years left on his rookie deal and relegate him to the bench in 2022 for the "QB of the Future."

The trade that was there for the taking was 3 first round picks and Garoppolo for the 2nd overall.  

[The Crusher]

27 minutes ago, jgb said:

I was butt fumbled last night for suggesting that Zach Wilson's stock has dropped -- or at best remained the same -- as the day he was drafted. 

Yet, they believe that they are the positive-minded Real Jets Fans™ because they believe ~100 players, coaches, staff, front office all suck and have failed one rookie QB.

I think that was certainly true before Zach got hurt and 2 back ups plus Super Bowl MVP of yesteryear Joe Flacco executed the offense pretty succinctly. I was one, really thought LaFleur got the job based on who he knew and was cluelessly not ready. Yet, I also thought it was the combination of that, Zach coming from small school and crappy uncoordinated offense line. 

Right now it’s obvious it’s Zach and for all intent and purpose should be. Kid was never ready to start for this team and it is what it is. Now we wait to see if he can pull it all together with  the rest of this years reps. He came back  last game after being sidelines l and  looked it, but at the same time he also looked like he’s at least trying to get the idea of letting the game come to him.

It’s obviously still too fast for him and I think and hope that’s why that smoothness he once had is gone. If he can regain that then he has a shot, but if he’s broke? Then it’s likely a combination of him never having it and them not seeing that trying to start him too soon. Not sure the ratio, I let the smarter  of you fools fight that out, 

 

[The Crusher]

14 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Imagine what that closed-door conversation looks like with Saleh, Douglas, LaFleur, and Woody this afternoon if Zach is limping through practice. I think you’d get a vote of 4-0 for Flacco time.

I vote Flacco time. Was fun watching him run the offense. Zach needs the reps  obviously but also needs to heal up. Little tender still. 

[LSJF]

2 hours ago, jetlaw said:

Have we learned nothing from Darnold? First we blamed bowles, then the o-line. Then poor weapons. Then we blamed the mother of all scapegoats - Gase. The fact is Darnold was not and never will be a franchise qb. Too many flaws: can’t read a defense, bad decision making, bad foot work, inaccurate deep ball. Zach Wilson is even worse. We can’t waste another 3 years on a garbage qb. If he doesn’t show signs of improvement by the end of the year we should be considering other options.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

After Six whole games? I think he gets to at least Halloween of next year… If there is no marked improvement, yeah then ….

[Biggs]

16 minutes ago, Butterfield said:

The trade that was there for the taking was 3 first round picks and Garoppolo for the 2nd overall.  

Who would have been the best QB the Jets have had since Namath.  

[Joe W. Namath]

34 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I think IR’ing Zach would do a lot more for Douglas’ short-term prospects than trotting Zach out there every week does at this point.

Joe Douglas is one of the best, young GMs in the league.  He doesnt have “short term” prospects.  From Woody down everyone knows this season is about development and not winning.  The Jets could lose each remaining game by 50 and it wouldnt matter.

Saleh and Douglas are here for the long haul and we are lucky to have them.

[Biggs]

4 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Joe Douglas is one of the best, young GMs in the league.  He doesnt have “short term” prospects.  From Woody down everyone knows this season is about development and not winning.  The Jets could lose each remaining game by 50 and it wouldnt matter.

Saleh and Douglas are here for the long haul and we are lucky to have them.

One of the best young GM's means he's average at best.  I think he has had a pretty good draft this year but you have to acknowledge that 2 first round busts in 2 years is a little scary.  

[LSJF]

10 minutes ago, Biggs said:

One of the best young GM's means he's average at best.  I think he has had a pretty good draft this year but you have to acknowledge that 2 first round busts in 2 years is a little scary.  

I’m more concerned ab the LT’s health rather than his ability…. Zach a bust? I’ll give it to end of OCT ‘22… and bring in QB Competition as well

[Flea Flicking Frank]

32 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

I think that was certainly true before Zach got hurt and 2 back ups plus Super Bowl MVP of yesteryear Joe Flacco executed the offense pretty succinctly. I was one, really thought LaFleur got the job based on who he knew and was cluelessly not ready. Yet, I also thought it was the combination of that, Zach coming from small school and crappy uncoordinated offense line. 

Right now it’s obvious it’s Zach and for all intent and purpose should be. Kid was never ready to start for this team and it is what it is. Now we wait to see if he can pull it all together with  the rest of this years reps. He came back  last game after being sidelines l and  looked it, but at the same time he also looked like he’s at least trying to get the idea of letting the game come to him.

It’s obviously still too fast for him and I think and hope that’s why that smoothness he once had is gone. If he can regain that then he has a shot, but if he’s broke? Then it’s likely a combination of him never having it and them not seeing that trying to start him too soon. Not sure the ratio, I let the smarter  of you fools fight that out, 

 

Heres where I kind of disagree. I do agree that its clear LaFleur is running a different offense with and without Zach, and his offense looks far better without Zach.

But here is where I disagree, and I think Lafleur is doing a terrible, terrible job with Zach.... With Zach, he is so much more predictable run on first down almost every time and the defense knows its coming and they run blitz. This sets up 2nd and long and puts the huge blitz and press on, which almost inevitably sets up up the same on 3rd down, and on 3rd and long Zach gets killed.

Lafleur being afraid of Wilson is putting Wilson in far worse situations becuase of this, and someone needs to step in.

You have basically 2 options, org agree to sit Wilson until Lafleur won't setup this run/run/pass model, or, Lafleur needs to figure out a way to put Zach in better situations. 

What Lafleur is doing now is worst of all situations IMO. Its not helping Zach, and its not helping the team. I have no problem sitting Zach, but if you are going to play him, you absolutely have to stop putting him in predictable situations all the damn time. You can see the defense knows exactly whats coming almost every play.

[Uncle Nicco]

6 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Heres where I kind of disagree. I do agree that its clear LaFleur is running a different offense with and without Zach, and his offense looks far better without Zach.

But here is where I disagree, and I think Lafleur is doing a terrible, terrible job with Zach.... With Zach, he is so much more predictable run on first down almost every time and the defense knows its coming and they run blitz. This sets up 2nd and long and puts the huge blitz and press on, which almost inevitably sets up up the same on 3rd down, and on 3rd and long Zach gets killed.

Lafleur being afraid of Wilson is putting Wilson in far worse situations becuase of this, and someone needs to step in.

You have basically 2 options, org agree to sit Wilson until Lafleur won't setup this run/run/pass model, or, Lafleur needs to figure out a way to put Zach in better situations. 

What Lafleur is doing now is worst of all situations IMO. Its not helping Zach, and its not helping the team. I have no problem sitting Zach, but if you are going to play him, you absolutely have to stop putting him in predictable situations all the damn time. You can see the defense knows exactly whats coming almost every play.

POST OF THE WEEK 

[TuscanyTile2]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Fair points. A season of Minshew would have been fun, probably.

Your traitorous behavior is duly noted by high command.

My Quite Army!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[The Crusher]

9 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Heres where I kind of disagree. I do agree that its clear LaFleur is running a different offense with and without Zach, and his offense looks far better without Zach.

But here is where I disagree, and I think Lafleur is doing a terrible, terrible job with Zach.... With Zach, he is so much more predictable run on first down almost every time and the defense knows its coming and they run blitz. This sets up 2nd and long and puts the huge blitz and press on, which almost inevitably sets up up the same on 3rd down, and on 3rd and long Zach gets killed.

Lafleur being afraid of Wilson is putting Wilson in far worse situations becuase of this, and someone needs to step in.

You have basically 2 options, org agree to sit Wilson until Lafleur won't setup this run/run/pass model, or, Lafleur needs to figure out a way to put Zach in better situations. 

What Lafleur is doing now is worst of all situations IMO. Its not helping Zach, and its not helping the team. I have no problem sitting Zach, but if you are going to play him, you absolutely have to stop putting him in predictable situations all the damn time. You can see the defense knows exactly whats coming almost every play.

Great post. Very good points and I honestly don’t have as discerning an eye as others when it comes to the nuance of the game as others. I’ll simplify it by saying Zach wasn’t ready to start and LaFleur wasn’t ready for Zach. My point from day one was it was just too much newness on that side of the ball. I agree LaFleur deserves some blame but honestly no more than whomever decided to take Zach at 2 and push all the chips on him without an even remote plan B. Kid wasn’t ready, LaFleur wasn’t ready and the offense wasn’t ready. Should have kept Super Bowl MVP Joe Flacco on the team and let Zach learn while LaFeur learned and the offense progressed. Whoever missed that deserves the Dunce cap! 
 

 

[The Crusher]

9 minutes ago, Uncle Nicco said:

POST OF THE WEEK 

See how nice an unbiased opinion flows on the board. I go with POST OF THE MONTH. 

[TuscanyTile2]

10 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

See how nice an unbiased opinion flows on the board. I go with POST OF THE MONTH. 

Post of the fortnight.

[FidelioJet]

28 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Heres where I kind of disagree. I do agree that its clear LaFleur is running a different offense with and without Zach, and his offense looks far better without Zach.

But here is where I disagree, and I think Lafleur is doing a terrible, terrible job with Zach.... With Zach, he is so much more predictable run on first down almost every time and the defense knows its coming and they run blitz. This sets up 2nd and long and puts the huge blitz and press on, which almost inevitably sets up up the same on 3rd down, and on 3rd and long Zach gets killed.

Lafleur being afraid of Wilson is putting Wilson in far worse situations becuase of this, and someone needs to step in.

You have basically 2 options, org agree to sit Wilson until Lafleur won't setup this run/run/pass model, or, Lafleur needs to figure out a way to put Zach in better situations. 

What Lafleur is doing now is worst of all situations IMO. Its not helping Zach, and its not helping the team. I have no problem sitting Zach, but if you are going to play him, you absolutely have to stop putting him in predictable situations all the damn time. You can see the defense knows exactly whats coming almost every play.

While I do agree with your overall concept and concerns - it's clearly a different offense with and without Zach.  But I'm not sure it's a fear of Zach as much as is it different skill-sets and different goals.  But,  Zach clearly struggles at times - with the timing and short accuracy.  That has to be worked out - and probably is causing LeFleur to call a different game than he wants.

With that said - I would be interested in seeing a Zach/Lafleur offense when the team is down 40 points. I suspect you would see Zach Wilson look quite a bit better under those circumstances.

Lastly, the Jets went 1-3 without Zach - one game the QB threw 4 int's and had to be benched - where the Jets defense gave up more points in a three game span in their history.  Somehow this run was viewed as a masterpiece by our offense.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

6 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

While I do agree with your overall concept and concerns - it's clearly a different offense with and without Zach.  But I'm not sure it's a fear of Zach as much as is it different skill-sets and different goals.  But,  Zach clearly struggles at times - with the timing and short accuracy.  That has to be worked out - and probably is causing LeFleur to call a different game than he wants.

With that said - I would be interested in seeing a Zach/Lafleur offense when the team is down 40 points. I suspect you would see Zach Wilson look quite a bit better under those circumstances.

Lastly, the Jets went 1-3 without Zach - one game the QB threw 4 int's and had to be benched - where the Jets defense gave up more points in a three game span in their history.  Somehow this run was viewed as a masterpiece by our offense.

Yeah, the last point is the one that is extremely puzzling to me. White had some good moments and overall looked efficient in the short passing game. Flacco at times looked good, but could have easily had 3 pics if not for good fortune for him.

I don't see how people come away looking at this team like they are far better with or without Zach. They are 2-5 with him and 1-3 without him. Pretty damn similar.

 

[jgb]

7 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Yeah, the last point is the one that is extremely puzzling to me. White had some good moments and overall looked efficient in the short passing game. Flacco at times looked good, but could have easily had 3 pics if not for good fortune for him.

I don't see how people come away looking at this team like they are far better with or without Zach. They are 2-5 with him and 1-3 without him. Pretty damn similar.

 

I don't see a whole lot of people (any) saying we are better off with those guys than Wilson long term -- Wilson still has much more upside. We are saying it's troubling that 1 has-been and 2 never-wases seem to grasp the system better than Wilson. Also note the has-been was on the team for 2 weeks before playing.

[Biggs]

11 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Yeah, the last point is the one that is extremely puzzling to me. White had some good moments and overall looked efficient in the short passing game. Flacco at times looked good, but could have easily had 3 pics if not for good fortune for him.

I don't see how people come away looking at this team like they are far better with or without Zach. They are 2-5 with him and 1-3 without him. Pretty damn similar.

 

It's a good point until you consider the sunk cost.  Mike White cost as almost nothing.  Flacco was a wasted move although getting covid and probably infecting White did get Zach back in the lineup. 

Zach could cost us a lot in terms of sunk cost and future cost if we don't either develop him or dump him fast enough. 

[Flea Flicking Frank]

9 minutes ago, jgb said:

I don't see a whole lot of people (any) saying we are better off with those guys than Wilson long term -- Wilson still has much more upside. We are saying it's troubling that 1 has-been and 2 never-wases seem to grasp the system better than Wilson. Also note the has-been was on the team for 2 weeks before playing.

Yeah, when you are saying he's the worst QB in the history of bad QB's, you kind of are saying were better off without him, and you have positively concluded that he is worthless, never will be any good and we should already move on from him because for him to be anything other than atrocious would be the biggest outlier known to humanity. So yeah, you have been pretty clear on your stance.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Yeah, when you are saying he's the worst QB in the history of bad QB's, you kind of are saying were better off without him, and you have positively concluded that he is worthless, never will be any good and we should already move on from him because for him to be anything other than atrocious would be the biggest outlier known to humanity. So yeah, you have been pretty clear on your stance.

I have done none of the things you suggest. Or do you mean the royal "you?"

[Flea Flicking Frank]

1 minute ago, Biggs said:

It's a good point until you consider the sunk cost.  Mike White cost as almost nothing.  Flacco was a wasted move although getting covid and probably infecting White did get Zach back in the lineup. 

Zach could cost us a lot in terms of sunk cost and future cost if we don't either develop him or dump him fast enough. 

I have no tie to Zach Wilson, my fandom is with the Jets. Many have already concluded we need to dump him, and maybe they are right.

My point is Lafleur is not doing Zach any service by playing incredibly conservative, and if Lafleur is afraid of him, someone needs to step in and be a leader and say either Zach, sit down until Lafluer is not afraid of you, or Lafleur, stop being so damn predictable because you are afraid of Zach