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The All Things Zach Wilson Thread: MERGED


Barry McCockinner
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3 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

Why didn't they include completion %, QB rating or QBR?

For those who don't know, against those teams respectively:

Mac Jones:

Texans - 76.7% - 95.3 Rating - 70.0 QBR - 25 points - Win

Falcon - 84.6% - 96.6 Rating - 39.1 QBR - 25 points - Win

Titans - 71.9% - 123.2 Rating - 72.9 QBR - 36 points - Win

Panthers - 66.7%- 85.2 Rating - 24.8 QBR - 24 points - Win

Zach Wilson

Texans - 58.3% - 58.5 Rating - 9.8 QBR - 21 points - Win

Falcons - 59.4%  - 63.5 Rating - 19.7 QBR - 20 points - Lose

Titans - 61.8% - 97.3 Rating - 45.3 QBR - 27 points - Win

Panthers - 54.1% - 82.9 Rating - 32.7 QBR - 14 points - Lose

Thanks for putting in the names.  Wouldn’t have known which was which without them.  Practically indistinguishable!

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3 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

Why didn't they include completion %, QB rating or QBR?

For those who don't know, against those teams respectively:

Mac Jones:

Texans - 76.7% - 95.3 Rating - 70.0 QBR - 25 points - Win

Falcon - 84.6% - 96.6 Rating - 39.1 QBR - 25 points - Win

Titans - 71.9% - 123.2 Rating - 72.9 QBR - 36 points - Win

Panthers - 66.7%- 85.2 Rating - 24.8 QBR - 24 points - Win

Zach Wilson

Texans - 58.3% - 58.5 Rating - 9.8 QBR - 21 points - Win

Falcons - 59.4%  - 63.5 Rating - 19.7 QBR - 20 points - Lose

Titans - 61.8% - 97.3 Rating - 45.3 QBR - 27 points - Win

Panthers - 54.1% - 82.9 Rating - 32.7 QBR - 14 points - Lose

-----------------------------------------------

Hilarious.

Even in your cherry picked games and Zach's garbage time inflation Mac absolutely destroys him. This is honestly the saddest attempt at coping that I have ever seen. 

It's just f*cking pathetic reading this place of late. Embarrassing levels of denial, desperately clinging on to any hope that the very clearly very bad QB is good actually. 

Mac Jones is a far better QB than Zach Wilson. The sooner you accept that the less painful it will be. 

Finish Him Mortal Kombat GIF

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9 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Ranked 15th in points allowed, 11th in yards

They have been better as of late, but are hardly scary.

The first half of the year, they played one of the softest zones that you will ever see. Teams attacked them underneath and chunked medium yard gains by the bushelful. They gave up long methodical drives with little resistance. To their credit, they have changed that philosophy over the last 4 weeks or so. 

They can rush the passer a little bit, so expect that to be a big problem for the Jets. You have to watch out for Big Play Slay in the secondary a little bit, as he loves to jump routes. To his own detriment sometimes. 

I would make the suggestion that one of the reasons the Eagles are maybe "decent" in the 2 areas you suggested would be:

1. Because early in the year they were down so big in some games, that teams really shut down trying to get huge yards. (But that would belie why the Jets defensive rankings are still so bad).

2. The Eagles run game has become so prolific that they are happy churning yards and it eats clock, which creates less possessions per game than the normal defense.

Both of those suggestions would require me doing some deeper research, which I am too lazy to do.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

They have been better as of late, but are hardly scary.

The first half of the year, they played one of the softest zones that you will ever see. Teams attacked them underneath and chunked medium yard gains by the bushelful. They gave up long methodical drives with little resistance. To their credit, they have changed that philosophy over the last 4 weeks or so. 

They can rush the passer a little bit, so expect that to be a big problem for the Jets. You have to watch out for Big Play Slay in the secondary a little bit, as he loves to jump routes. To his own detriment sometimes. 

I would make the suggestion that one of the reasons the Eagles are maybe "decent" in the 2 areas you suggested would be:

1. Because early in the year they were down so big in some games, that teams really shut down trying to get huge yards. (But that would belie why the Jets defensive rankings are still so bad).

2. The Eagles run game has become so prolific that they are happy churning yards and it eats clock, which creates less possessions per game than the normal defense.

Both of those suggestions would require me doing some deeper research, which I am too lazy to do.

 

 

My point (such as it was) was that, if Wilson’s knee isn’t 100% and Saleh wants to protect him like he did against Miami, he can reasonably play the injury card against a non-poof defense.

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52 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Also, re: Allen, I think Zach’s injuries are something to watch. Allen is built like an OLB and Zach is built like a punter. I’m curious to see what happens this week in practice with his knee, and if they try to stash him again against a pretty decent Eagles defense. 

Hard to know.  I think Allen takes on way more punishment than he should and it's going to catch up to him.  The guy isn't superman and he gets absolutely hammered on a regular basis.   Lamar Jackson takes a lot less punishment because he's much smarter about avoiding direct contact.  

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1 hour ago, Biggs said:

Jones walked into a completely rebuilt team that sucked last year.  He was in a QB competition from day 1.  He won the competition outright over a veteran QB.  Nobody picked the Pats to be competiting for the playoffs this year let alone the division and a possible first round bye in the playoffs.  

Joe Borrow and Justin Herbert walked in last year and were competent from day 1.  Allen is literally the last QB who sucked in year one who has now made it.  Allen is also a physical freak.   

The reality is Jones may be the only QB from this class who doesn't wash out.   Zach may or may not work out but the reality is sucking as a rookie doesn't mean what it used to.  These guys are developed and coached all year round to be pro-ready from day 1.  The guys who are show it earlier than in the past.  

Pats had some major players sit out last year due to covid. Those guys are back plus they spent a lot in free agency this year. The system and most coaches have been in place for over 20 years now, that means something.

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4 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

Why didn't they include completion %, QB rating or QBR?

For those who don't know, against those teams respectively:

Mac Jones:

Texans - 76.7% - 95.3 Rating - 70.0 QBR - 25 points - Win

Falcon - 84.6% - 96.6 Rating - 39.1 QBR - 25 points - Win

Titans - 71.9% - 123.2 Rating - 72.9 QBR - 36 points - Win

Panthers - 66.7%- 85.2 Rating - 24.8 QBR - 24 points - Win

Zach Wilson

Texans - 58.3% - 58.5 Rating - 9.8 QBR - 21 points - Win

Falcons - 59.4%  - 63.5 Rating - 19.7 QBR - 20 points - Lose

Titans - 61.8% - 97.3 Rating - 45.3 QBR - 27 points - Win

Panthers - 54.1% - 82.9 Rating - 32.7 QBR - 14 points - Lose

-----------------------------------------------

Hilarious.

Even in your cherry picked games and Zach's garbage time inflation Mac absolutely destroys him. This is honestly the saddest attempt at coping that I have ever seen. 

It's just f*cking pathetic reading this place of late. Embarrassing levels of denial, desperately clinging on to any hope that the very clearly very bad QB is good actually. 

Mac Jones is a far better QB than Zach Wilson. The sooner you accept that the less painful it will be. 

Ah yes the old "stop cherry picking" argument based around cherry picking of your own. Of course you cherry pick comp % and rating which are directly tied to each other and easily manipulated by scheme and coaching. Of course. Not to mention crediting WINS to the QB. If anything Wilson having 2 wins with this team and "coaching" is significantly more impressive than Mac Jones riding the coat tails of literally the greatest coach in NFL history. 

You know what the pathetic thing is? People like you who decide to throw away any positive shown by your rookie QB that has played 5 games and instead choose to sh*t spray hyperbolic statements about how terrible his is all over a message board. 

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16 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

My point (such as it was) was that, if Wilson’s knee isn’t 100% and Saleh wants to protect him like he did against Miami, he can reasonably play the injury card against a non-poof defense.

My current belief is that based upon Saleh's press conference, and his comments on Wilson particularly that he views each game as an opportunity to grow and build upon the last game. And there is some stuff to build off.

I do not view Saleh as the type of personality or coach that looks to "protect" players from feelings. I would suggest that he is a "fight through it" type of guy, and you take your lumps. Douglas, I believe to be in the same mold. Both of these scratched and crawled through the ranks, and were given nothing. That is just my suggestion.

Saleh's words (and our own eyes) see that Wilson struggles in the beginning because he he is "jumpy". How do you supposedly eliminate jumpiness? By continuing to go out and acclimate to your situation

Don't get me wrong. There is a coddling being done with Wilson in terms of play call. I think in EVERY game that Wilson has started, the first play is a run play. And a lot of times the second play is a run play. In fact, that occurs in the majority of drives in at least the first quarter. When the "back-ups" were starting, there was much less of that.
Back on point, I would be very surprised ad disappointed if Wilson is sat because of "who we are playing".

 

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17 hours ago, johnnysd said:

262023905_6551743421566839_3088901707020

If you look at the DVOA of the defenses Zach has played he has played 5 of his 7 starts against the Top 6 pass defenses in the NFL. This might provide a little perspective that maybe we should be patient and not just jump ship just yet.

So the fact that they both threw for about 220 yards a game and had almost as many picks as TD's is supposed to make us feel better? Everyone knows the Pats are a better coached team on both sides of the ball which is why they are in the playoffs hunt. The thing that stands out to me is that Jones clearly gets it with how to play in that O. Zach on the other hand is the QB on the Jets that seemingly is still on the lower parr. Of the curve. 

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1 minute ago, ZachEY said:

This is it.

There's no set amount of time.  The "impatience" that you're seeing is that two no name QBs have successfully run this offense and Wilson, despite the narrative of some around here, doesn't look like a typical rookie.  He looks downright terrible.  Worse than Darnold looked.  Worse than Geno looked.  Worse than Sanchez looked.  He looks like a guy with a strong arm who's literally never played the position before.

Remember the "Obie Shuffle"?  I can almost excuse O'Brien as he was getting destroyed.  But I see the same thing with Zack Wilson, who's new and young.  He appears skittish and instead of stepping up in the pocket looks to scramble to the sideline before unleashing a desperation pass.  Even worse is he's missing simple dump off throws.

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5 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

This is it.

There's no set amount of time.  The "impatience" that you're seeing is that two no name QBs have successfully run this offense and Wilson, despite the narrative of some around here, doesn't look like a typical rookie.  He looks downright terrible.  Worse than Darnold looked.  Worse than Geno looked.  Worse than Sanchez looked.  He looks like a guy with a strong arm who's literally never played the position before.

That is all true, but I think it is actually helpful. If he has the moxie that we have been sold on, he now realizes that it CAN be done within this offensive scheme. BUT, it has to be done within the system and not forced. I saw examples of that last week. Yes, small baby steps.

Maybe I am projecting my hope here, but maybe sitting and the other QB's showing him that it is "him" and not the offense that is a big part of the problem. That is important if he learned that lesson.

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31 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

My point (such as it was) was that, if Wilson’s knee isn’t 100% and Saleh wants to protect him like he did against Miami, he can reasonably play the injury card against a non-poof defense.

I think thar ship has sailed. Saleh will look like a jerk if he did that more so than he already does.

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23 hours ago, kevinc855 said:

12 games will be a fair evaluation. That is what he will have when the season ends and he stays healthy/doesn't get benched. 

I think at that point we will know what we have to do in the offseason with QB. Are we cutting him? Of course not, but an actual QB competition in 22 may be in order. 

As of right now, we pick 4-5, with Seattle's pick being the first.  We could legitimately have two top ten picks, and 4 in the top 50.  

It might be worth taking another QB and having a QB competition.  Best QB wins.  Again, if Arizona got a #1 on the potential of Josh Rosen, we could get that for Zach.  The only problem is, are the QB's coming out next year worth a 1st?  Howell, Rattler, Slovis....they have all seemed to disappear this year.  Is Matt Corral any better a prospect than Wilson was?  

While I was razzing you about being a homer after we had won the game in your Russel Wilson thread, I too wonder about Zach.  This is why I think you have to draft and let them sit.  For every Hubert that makes a seamless jump from college to the NFL, 10 of them fail.  They don't get a chance to actually learn because there is no minor league system in the NFL.  Its sink or swim, and most of them sink.  

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6 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

As of right now, we pick 4-5, with Seattle's pick being the first.  We could legitimately have two top ten picks, and 4 in the top 50.  

It might be worth taking another QB and having a QB competition.  Best QB wins.  Again, if Arizona got a #1 on the potential of Josh Rosen, we could get that for Zach.  The only problem is, are the QB's coming out next year worth a 1st?  Howell, Rattler, Slovis....they have all seemed to disappear this year.  Is Matt Corral any better a prospect than Wilson was?  

While I was razzing you about being a homer after we had won the game in your Russel Wilson thread, I too wonder about Zach.  This is why I think you have to draft and let them sit.  For every Hubert that makes a seamless jump from college to the NFL, 10 of them fail.  They don't get a chance to actually learn because there is no minor league system in the NFL.  Its sink or swim, and most of them sink.  

I'm not sure you draft one, safer prob to sign one. You have to assume the Texans will take a QB so you are looking at maybe a shot at the 2nd or 3rd best QB in a not very deep QB draft class which is why I may air on signing one. 

The problem is the QB is the most important position on the team. We are loading up in 22 via draft and FA money. The team is going to want to start winning. The franchise can't sacrifice the last few years of setting us up for this with bad QB play. We need insurance. I think in this system a game manager who doesn't turn the ball over can win you football games. I'm not totally giving up on Zach yet, but he should have a quick hook if he is the week 1 starter in 2022, because the 2022 season won't just be about "zachs development" anymore, it be about the other 52 guys, coaching staff, FO, and fan base who want to win football games. 

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On 11/30/2021 at 2:20 PM, T0mShane said:

I disagree with that take. A lot of young players are starting to emerge. 

Real Fans™ defend the QB by saying the entire team — including the coaches — sucks. Yet they believe they are the optimistic ones and we are the sad sack Haterz for opining that Zach is the biggest problem with the team at present. A real mystery of human psychology.

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22 hours ago, tfine said:

 


Josh Johnson and Mike White are not rookies. The plays that they’ve been asked to execute they probably seen a hundred times…on many different teams. Zach is being asked to execute these for the first time. It may take a couple of years to fix his accuracy ala Josh Allen, but once he fixes it he will be the franchise QB. I don’t know what it is with Jets rookie QBs..it seems like they have a very short leash…..and any progress they make it a step forward and every mistake is like 10 steps back….other teams fans expect this….but not here.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

I don’t understand this.  Were Sanchez, Geno and Darnold given “short” leashes?  Geno only started 2 years so maybe…but would you have wanted to stick with any of those 3 for longer?

What good teams stick with struggling young QBs and have it work out for them?  Sure the Bills with Allen and the Colts 20 years ago.

Not the Giants, not the Cardinals, not the Browns, not the Eagles, not the Broncos, not the Rams, not the Titans, not the Buccs, not the WFT, not the Jags.  Just within the last handful of years.  If you can’t deal with things (at all in Wilson’s case), it is very unlikely things magically turn around.

Now I’m fine rolling with Wilson into next year (assuming he doesn’t implode any further this year), but that’s only because I think we need to dump all of our  energy and resources into the rest of this roster.  But any fan worth their salt has the right to complain and demand change because Wilson’s play has been nothing short of disgusting so far.  It is single-handedly damaging this team’s growth and holding back a lot of our young players.

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6 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

I'm not sure you draft one, safer prob to sign one. You have to assume the Texans will take a QB so you are looking at maybe a shot at the 2nd or 3rd best QB in a not very deep QB draft class which is why I may air on signing one. 

The problem is the QB is the most important position on the team. We are loading up in 22 via draft and FA money. The team is going to want to start winning. The franchise can't sacrifice the last few years of setting us up for this with bad QB play. We need insurance. I think in this system a game manager who doesn't turn the ball over can win you football games. I'm not totally giving up on Zach yet, but he should have a quick hook if he is the week 1 starter in 2022, because the 2022 season won't just be about "zachs development" anymore, it be about the other 52 guys, coaching staff, FO, and fan base who want to win football games. 

Can Mike White be the guy?  He looked good for the most part until he tried to be something he wasn't against Buffalo.  Not really sure he is a better option than Wilson.

Is Flacco the guy?  It would cost too much to get Russell Wilson in a trade.  Is Marcus Mariota worth looking at in F/A?  Doubtful.  Will Ben Roethlisberger come here for a year?  No.  Cam Newton, Tyrod Taylor, Colt McCoy, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Andy Dalton, Jameis Winston, Nick Foles, Teddy Bridgewater?  The pickins' are slim.  That is the problem with the NFL.  Doesn't matter how good you are, it comes down to just one player, and there is really only about 10 of them who seem to have a legitimate shot at winning each year. 

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27 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

That is all true, but I think it is actually helpful. If he has the moxie that we have been sold on, he now realizes that it CAN be done within this offensive scheme. BUT, it has to be done within the system and not forced. I saw examples of that last week. Yes, small baby steps.

Maybe I am projecting my hope here, but maybe sitting and the other QB's showing him that it is "him" and not the offense that is a big part of the problem. That is important if he learned that lesson.

That is the key.  We saw three QB's run the same offence and all play pretty well.  If Zach Wilson comes in and it doesn't run well, it would appear the issue isn't Lafleur after all.

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7 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

After week 1, it was 1 week.

After week 2, it was 2 weeks.

After week 3, it was 3 weeks.

You get the drift.

Oh, I get your drift, but I don't think that is accurate in any way whatsoever.

I'll be honest, I feel like every thread in re: Zach goes something like this:

Poster #1:  Zach sure played pretty poorly today.  He missed a number of makeable passes and some open guys.

Poster #2:  SCREEEEE!!!!!! WHY ARE YOU SO IMPATIENT!!!! WHAT, DO YOU WANT TO CUT ZACH TODAY!!!???  WHY DO YOU HAAAAAATE HIM AND WANT HIM TO DIEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

Poster #1:  Uh, ok.  

Poster #2:  YOU ARE A BAD FAN!!! WHY DON'T YOU ROOT FOR SOMEONE ELSE!!!!  DUH, PAYTON MANNING SUCKED AS A ROOKIE TOO DUMBASS.  THOSE INT'S WERE THE RB, TE AND COACHES FAULT, ZACH DID NOTHING WRONG!!!!

And it only declines from there.

Of course, some posters see this as the exact opposite, so yeah.  Almost like modern day Republicans and Democrats, the forum seems (as it always does with new high-picked QB's) to be both set in their view, with their own separate sets of "facts", very angry about people who don't agree with them to the point of seeing them as the real enemy, and for the most part....completely talking past one another, rather than to one another.

 

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5 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

Andy Dalton, Jameis Winston, Nick Foles, Teddy Bridgewater

All these guys can win you football games imho.....that is if Zach never becomes a good QB in this league. What i don't want is the Darnold approach where we feel we need to give 3 years to a guy while the rest of the team suffers

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1 minute ago, Warfish said:

Oh, I get your drift, but I don't think that is accurate in any way whatsoever.

I'll be honest, I feel like every thread in re: Zach goes something like this:

Poster #1:  Zach sure played pretty poorly today.  He missed a number of makeable passes and some open guys.

Poster #2:  SCREEEEE!!!!!! WHY ARE YOU SO IMPATIENT!!!! WHAT, DO YOU WANT TO CUT ZACH TODAY!!!???  WHY DO YOU HAAAAAATE HIM AND WANT HIM TO DIEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

Poster #1:  Uh, ok.  

Poster #2:  YOU ARE A BAD FAN!!! WHY DON'T YOU ROOT FOR SOMEONE ELSE!!!!  DUH, PAYTON MANNING SUCKED AS A ROOKIE TOO DUMBASS.  THOSE INT'S WERE THE RB, TE AND COACHES FAULT, ZACH DID NOTHING WRONG!!!!

And it only declines from there.

Of course, some posters see this as the exact opposite, so yeah.  Almost like modern day Republicans and Democrats, the forum seems (as it always does with new high-picked QB's) to be both set in their view, very angry about people who don't agree with them, and for the most part....completely talking past one another, rather than to one another.

 

Like the old sayin, opinions are like a-holes. Every one has one.

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Just now, kevinc855 said:

All these guys can win you football games imho.....that is if Zach never becomes a good QB in this league. What i don't want is the Darnold approach where we feel we need to give 3 years to a guy while the rest of the team suffers

As one of the prime Darnold haters on the board, these words pain me to write:  If he had still been on the team, and JD/Saleh made it a fair fight in camp, Zack Wilson never sees the field.

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6 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

All these guys can win you football games imho.....that is if Zach never becomes a good QB in this league. What i don't want is the Darnold approach where we feel we need to give 3 years to a guy while the rest of the team suffers

While sandbagging the options behind him in some misguided attempt to “preserve his psyche.” Although in this case all 3 tomato cans JD put out on the shelf behind Zach have outperformed him.

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