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The All Things Zach Wilson Thread: MERGED


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3 minutes ago, Darnold's Forehead said:

Didn't we already go through this whole "FLASHES" narrative with Darnold?

I don't understand why it is being held onto so tightly now.  It's about the only thing being said to excuse Zach's horrible play.  Zach better be good next season, that's all I know.  Darnold was only given 2 1/2 years with MUCH worse offensive talent, and he had to experience a coaching/OC change.  Zach won't have to deal with that.

Also remember, despite Darnold's idiotic play, his "FLASHES" were shown multiple times across MULTIPLE WEEKS in his first 2 years.

Wrong.  It’s not just generic “flashes” 
 

I say he looks good against easier to recognize zone defenses.  I think he looks tentative and confused against many looks, but he’s throwing less picks as the season goes on.  
 

He has lots of nice longer passes.  Plenty of high level completions.  
 

it’s not unreasonable to think he will get more comfortable with NFL defenses and disguised looks.  

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Yep

I can't take it anymore so I went merge happy.

I am going to preface this by saying that I desperately want Zach Wilson to be good.  I take no pleasure in seeing him struggle. Coming into the season, the one thing I wanted to avoid was the ne

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Is that the attitude you’re going to watch the game with? 

I’m telling you right now it’s not healthy.

OMFG HE ONLY THREW FOR 145

Half the NFL threw for less than 200 on Sunday. 

Those of you demanding 250 and 2 TDs, you realize that equals 4300 yards and 32 TDs in a season right? Is that what you expect from your rookie?

I am not saying Wilson had a good game, not by any stretch. It doesn’t change his accuracy issues which are real. I just find it funny how small the difference can be between good and bad in the NFL. Breaks/bounces in this game are real 

If

1) that shovel pass doesn’t get picked (a 1 in 10,000 unlucky play) 

and

2) griffin catches the TD pass (on a great throw)

wilsons passer rating for the game goes from a 58 to a 95

And if, Berrios is able to take that slant to the house? His passer rating is 114 

all I am saying is, the margin between a good and a bad game is razor thin in the NFL. The bounce of a ball can change the perception of something entirely even though nothing really changes 

Give it time

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4 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Wrong.  It’s not just generic “flashes” 
 

I say he looks good against easier to recognize zone defenses.  I think he looks tentative and confused against many looks, but he’s throwing less picks as the season goes on.  
 

He has lots of nice longer passes.  Plenty of high level completions.  
 

it’s not unreasonable to think he will get more comfortable with NFL defenses and disguised looks.  

Look, all fair, but I'd like to see him combine those flashes into a dominant game from whistle to whistle before I can have any confidence in his future trajectory. It's not personal. As you've rightly said, most QBs fail. Right now Zach is the lowest-rated QB in the league. That includes a bunch of rookies, including 3rd rounder David Mills with a much crappier Texans supporting cast.

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  • Maxman changed the title to The All Things Zach Wilson Thread: MERGED
22 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Wrong.  It’s not just generic “flashes” 
 

I say he looks good against easier to recognize zone defenses.  I think he looks tentative and confused against many looks, but he’s throwing less picks as the season goes on.  
 

He has lots of nice longer passes.  Plenty of high level completions.  
 

it’s not unreasonable to think he will get more comfortable with NFL defenses and disguised looks.  

They are generic flashes.  I'd argue against him having plenty of high level completions.  A lot of his 15-30 yd completions have been to open receivers on post/dig routes.  These completions are expected from any starting QB in this league.  Not saying he's done a bad job there, but these are not flashes.  Yes, he's had a few longer balls that I'd consider high level (long ball to Davis vs Titans comes to mind, also a few good corner route completions).  

But these simply don't matter when he consistently misses simple slant/screen/out routes and stalls out the offense.  I'm not saying he's not improving, because he is, and I think he can continue to do so.  But a lot of people around here are acting like he's dropping bombs into bread baskets between all his miss fires.  It's simply not the case.

 

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30 minutes ago, Maxman said:

I can't take it anymore so I went merge happy.

Will there be a penalty for derailing other threads that have ZERO to do with the current QB of the NYJ into a derailed thread about the current QB of the NYJ?

I could nominate one or two of the usual suspects. 

 

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30 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Oh god I always get so confused when threads get merged like this.

Now I know how my Das feels when mom rearranges the furniture 

haha it won't last long. I know there will be another Zach thread in two minutes and that is fine. I was just losing my mind the front page was covered with them. I think there were 14 different threads on Zach.

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11 hours ago, jgb said:

I'm not sure what's worse. Being overly-critical of players -- who we will never meet, engage with, or influence in any manner -- of being overly-critical of fellow fans being overly-critical of players.

Is there a fantasy league I'm not aware of where we can draft posters? What's the scoring system? Posts per week? Upvotes? I bet I'm the guy no one wants to draft but they dread seeing me on their opponent's team.

I don't care if you are overly critical of the players; you are taking this out of context of a long thread; my point was that I don't understand why some fans seem to root for players on their team to fail.

Also, comparing players to other players; expecting better results or unrealistic results can be classified as overly critical. Calling a player a midget or pig on toothpicks isn't being critical, it is a poor attempt to rationalize why JD sucks. And then, when the 'midget' plays well they disappear is a bit self-serving. That being said - I didn't understand why fans would want players or the team to fail to justify hatred of a GM or HC. JD is here, Saleh is here, these players have been drafted - what good does 'rooting' against them do?

That being said - hate, rant, name call all you guys want. I just don't get it. Enjoy the misery...

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10 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

Will there be a penalty for derailing other threads that have ZERO to do with the current QB of the NYJ into a derailed thread about the current QB of the NYJ?

I could nominate one or two of the usual suspects. 

 

Ignore feature. 

Just use it, and your sensitivity problems to alternate opinion is solved completely.

It'll be like those "one or two usual suspects" don't exist.

Give it a try, for all our sakes.

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35 minutes ago, bostonmajet said:

I don't care if you are overly critical of the players; you are taking this out of context of a long thread; my point was that I don't understand why some fans seem to root for players on their team to fail.

That's fair. I didn't read the whole thread.

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Also, comparing players to other players; expecting better results or unrealistic results can be classified as overly critical.

Don't agree with that.

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Calling a player a midget or pig on toothpicks isn't being critical, it is a poor attempt to rationalize why JD sucks.

Calling someone a midget or pig is pretty mean, and personal, that's true. Who is the "pig on toothpicks" I must've missed that reference... is a funny visual I have to admit...

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And then, when the 'midget' plays well they disappear is a bit self-serving. That being said - I didn't understand why fans would want players or the team to fail to justify hatred of a GM or HC. JD is here, Saleh is here, these players have been drafted - what good does 'rooting' against them do?

I find it very hard to believe that anyone who spends as much time on here as many of us are "rooting" against the Jets. At the risk of offending you, I think that's a pretty lazy way to dismiss them. I think instead what you are seeing is that some people have adopted the mental health strategy of just always assuming the worst about the Jets in order to avoid disappointment. At most, it's probably seen as a kind of consolation prize ("Well, if the Jets blow at least I'll get some fleeting satisfaction at having called it.").

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That being said - hate, rant, name call all you guys want. I just don't get it. Enjoy the misery...

The "misery" of fandom is not from holding a view. It's from the team sucking. In fact, railing against the Jets can prove to be quite cathartic and is more productive than other self-destructive coping mechanisms some fans employ. I'm not judging, just pointing out that everyone deals with the suck in their own way. Think of it this way: do you get upset when your kids disappoint you? What about if the neighbor's kid does something dumb? You have to care to get angry/pissed off/bitter. Doesn't mean we all don't want the same thing (we do). There doesn't always need to be a villain in every story.

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11 hours ago, Uncle Nicco said:

Those of you demanding 250 and 2 TDs, you realize that equals 4300 yards and 32 TDs in a season right? Is that what you expect from your rookie?

Not every week, no.

But yes, I do expect ~62% completion, ~4,000 yards passing and ~25+ TD passes, with a >2:1 TD to INT ratio from my #2 pick Franchise QB. 

And I expect them to stay healthy for 16 games (not miss games).

i.e. I expect our QB to be top 10-15 amongst NFL QB's.

If he is not that as a rookie, that is understandable.  But he's not even close as yet.  He's closer to a worse Sam Darnold so far.

And of course we're going to give him time, we have no other choice

Demanding "more time" is dumb, his doubters cannot cut him or effect him in any way.

But yes, I, for one, expect material improvement in his 2nd year. 

Last in the NFL (or thereabouts) amongst starting QB's, and/or with more time missed, is not acceptable in my view.

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23 hours ago, Green Ghost said:

Yet somehow, any player having success elsewhere would struggle on the Jets, because…. ???

 🙄

I don’t get how that works, but I really wish I did. I wish I could have your outlook on things. I’d love to look at things through those green tinted glasses you wear.

Any player having success elsewhere would struggle here?  Any player?  Who said this?  Who said every draft was good?  Every GM?  Really?  Check your notes.  You don’t know what you’re talking about.  Shocking 

Question.  You joined this July.  Since July it’s been one HC, one GM, one QB, etc.  How are you such an expert on what I’ve said? 
Either you’re full of shlt and just making it up or you’re one of our banned posters who crawl back and slip through without being caught.  Yet.  

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11 hours ago, Uncle Nicco said:

Is that the attitude you’re going to watch the game with? 

I’m telling you right now it’s not healthy.

OMFG HE ONLY THREW FOR 145

Half the NFL threw for less than 200 on Sunday. 

Those of you demanding 250 and 2 TDs, you realize that equals 4300 yards and 32 TDs in a season right? Is that what you expect from your rookie?

I am not saying Wilson had a good game, not by any stretch. It doesn’t change his accuracy issues which are real. I just find it funny how small the difference can be between good and bad in the NFL. Breaks/bounces in this game are real 

If

1) that shovel pass doesn’t get picked (a 1 in 10,000 unlucky play) 

and

2) griffin catches the TD pass (on a great throw)

wilsons passer rating for the game goes from a 58 to a 95

And if, Berrios is able to take that slant to the house? His passer rating is 114 

all I am saying is, the margin between a good and a bad game is razor thin in the NFL. The bounce of a ball can change the perception of something entirely even though nothing really changes 

Give it time

Berrios running down the open field on that play was painful to watch. Moore scores on that play going away. 

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22 hours ago, PFSIKH said:

Yeah, but.....

Totally agree on Lawrence.  Even with Fields.

Trevor was the only slam dunk.  Fields, I think, you could see potential if developed correctly. 

Zach and Trey?  Not so much.  I would probably put Mac in there as well.  Clearly, the Jets and 49ers were looking for something.  Whether it was found, who knows.  If the draft think tank thought differently, maybe the Jets draft Mac or Trey.

Is t this revisionist history?  It wasn’t just the Jets, like it or not pretty much every scouting group or so called expert had Wilson rated as their 2nd QB.  So that was my point in bringing up the others

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5 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Is t this revisionist history?  It wasn’t just the Jets, like it or not pretty much every scouting group or so called expert had Wilson rated as their 2nd QB.  So that was my point in bringing up the others

You truly just make sh*t up...

It was always Trevor number one and WILD debate about the order after...

The only person who had 2 made up the ENTIRE time was JD

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22 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

I wasn't under the impression teams draft guys at #2 to be game managers who needs seasons of time to develop. 

Sounds like more like a mid or late 1st pick. 

Zach was 2. 2!! He should be playing better in Week 13. 

Imagine how glad we must be that we did not have the opportunity to draft Trevor Lawrence at 1.1 then.

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23 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

I wasn't under the impression teams draft guys at #2 to be game managers who needs seasons of time to develop. 

Sounds like more like a mid or late 1st pick. 

Zach was 2. 2!! He should be playing better in Week 13. 

Trevor Lawrence was a one. Missed no games, yet to light the world on fire. I respect this place too much to bring up Peyton. 

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2 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Trevor Lawrence was a one. Missed no games, yet to light the world on fire. I respect this place too much to bring up Peyton. 

And others to bring up Justin Herbert. There is no science to this.

Did The Patriots draft Jones at 15 to be a game manager? Yeah, kind of. And they did him a total disservice I guess giving him an A+ offensive line.

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15 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

You truly just make sh*t up...

It was always Trevor number one and WILD debate about the order after...

The only person who had 2 made up the ENTIRE time was JD

And that’s wrong.  I said pretty much every scouting group etc and like it or not….not every pretty much.   You can rewrite history all you want

How do you know JD had ZW at 2 the entire time?  Because you’re back to reading minds?  No one knows when he decided on Zach but regardless he was t the only one

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1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Ignore feature. 

Just use it, and your sensitivity problems to alternate opinion is solved completely.

It'll be like those "one or two usual suspects" don't exist.

Give it a try, for all our sakes.

I don't use ignore.  Never have.  It's weak.  

Just as weak as the constant repetitive monotonous tedious continuing verbosity of those usual suspects that even @Maxman has recognized is making this sight unreadable.  

And I don't have a sensitivity problem, I'm 95% scar tissue. I have a "hates constant b*tching and whinning" problem.

WE GET IT.  Some folks here think Zach Wilson SUCKS.  Hot garbage.  Worst QB in the NFL.  Worst rookie QB EVER for the Jets.  Repeating it 50 times in every thread is not changing anyone's mind, it just makes the site unbearable.

Seriously.  WE GET IT.  Now go post a clever meme.  

/shrug

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1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Not every week, no.

But yes, I do expect ~62% completion, ~4,000 yards passing and ~25+ TD passes, with a >2:1 TD to INT ratio from my #2 pick Franchise QB. 

And I expect them to stay healthy for 16 games (not miss games).

i.e. I expect our QB to be top 10-15 amongst NFL QB's.

If he is not that as a rookie, that is understandable.  But he's not even close as yet.  He's closer to a worse Sam Darnold so far.

And of course we're going to give him time, we have no other choice

Demanding "more time" is dumb, his doubters cannot cut him or effect him in any way.

But yes, I, for one, expect material improvement in his 2nd year. 

Last in the NFL (or thereabouts) amongst starting QB's, and/or with more time missed, is not acceptable in my view.

I'd just like his non-terrible performances to outnumber his terrible ones the rest of the year. This "you're expecting Aaron Rodgers!!" baloney is a total strawman. Corollary: a throw here and there is not a "flash" in the context of a future FQB. A good game is.

28 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

I don't use ignore.  Never have.  It's weak.  

Just as weak as the constant repetitive monotonous tedious continuing verbosity of those usual suspects that even @Maxman has recognized is making this sight unreadable.  

And I don't have a sensitivity problem, I'm 95% scar tissue. I have a "hates constant b*tching and whinning" problem.

WE GET IT.  Some folks here think Zach Wilson SUCKS.  Hot garbage.  Worst QB in the NFL.  Worst rookie QB EVER for the Jets.  Repeating it 50 times in every thread is not changing anyone's mind, it just makes the site unbearable.

Seriously.  WE GET IT.  Now go post a clever meme.  

/shrug

He is the worst QB in the NFL. I guess you could quibble with QBR and Quarterback Rating if you want and argue he's not the very, very worst but if you have to go there, it's an admission that he hasn't been good.

Saying it doesn't mean we hope (laughable) it stays that way.

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16 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

I don't use ignore.  Never have.  It's weak.  

As opposed to your endless complaining and demands for opinion censorship because others disagree with you on something?

16 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Just as weak as the constant repetitive monotonous tedious continuing verbosity of those usual suspects that even @Maxman has recognized is making this sight unreadable.  

And I don't have a sensitivity problem, I'm 95% scar tissue. I have a "hates constant b*tching and whinning" problem.

And JN's built-in solution when you are incapable of self-control over the threads and posts you choose to read is the ignore feature

Use it, or don't.

But calling for posters to be outright silenced, that is detestable.

16 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

WE GET IT.  Some folks here think Zach Wilson SUCKS.  Hot garbage.  Worst QB in the NFL.  Worst rookie QB EVER for the Jets.  Repeating it 50 times in every thread is not changing anyone's mind, it just makes the site unbearable.

And WE get your thoughts too, endlessly repeated: needs time and weaponz, more time, more time, no expectations, more time, more time, he's actually great, we're bad fans for doubting or analyzing him, etc. 

And yet....no one is here trying to silence your drivel, or demand that our most silly blatant thoughtless homers get silenced.

16 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Seriously.  WE GET IT.  Now go post a clever meme.  

/shrug

Lol, now you're butthurt people like and lol at memes?

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7 minutes ago, jgb said:

He is the worst QB in the NFL. I guess you could quibble with QBR and Quarterback Ranking if you want and argue he's not the very, very worst but if you have to go there, it's an admission that he hasn't been good.

Saying it doesn't mean we hope it stays that way.

Exactly.  Like Mims, I am eager for Zach to silence his critics via great play.

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2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

As opposed to your endless complaining and demands for opinion censorship because others disagree with you on something?

And JN's built-in solution when you are incapable of self-control over the threads and posts you choose to read is the ignore feature

Use it, or don't.

But calling for posters to be outright silenced, that is detestable.

And WE get your thoughts too, endlessly repeated: needs time and weaponz, more time, more time, no expectations, more time, more time, he's actually great, we're bad fans for doubting or analyzing him, etc. 

And yet....no one is here trying to silence your drivel, or demand that our most silly blatant thoughtless homers get silenced.

Lol, now you're butthurt people like and lol at memes?

Don't forget his blatant appeal to authority by tagging the Big Man to try to get us spanked and put in the naughty corner.

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50 minutes ago, Lith said:

Since 2009, there have been 49 QBs who started at least 7 games as a rookie.  Through 7 games, Wilson's passer rating of 62.9 ranks 44th.  Does not mean all is lost, as Matthew Stafford and Josh Allen are bottom 10 along with WIlson.  But most of the guys who sucked through 7 games, went on to suck (Kizer, Clausen, Freeman, Rosen, Gabbert, Sanchez and Goff).

 

That is utterly frightening. 

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2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Exactly.  Like Mims, I am eager for Zach to silence his critics via great play.

Just admit it. Your 34,000 posts are a clever ruse to sow dissention into the faithful and you actually want the Jets to fail and our top draft picks to bust.

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1 hour ago, kevinc855 said:

You truly just make sh*t up...

It was always Trevor number one and WILD debate about the order after...

The only person who had 2 made up the ENTIRE time was JD

You cant argue with boneheads who are always right and refuse to admit when they're flat out wrong.  You just have to know who is worth your time.  The idea Wilson was the unanimous #2 QB is utter ******* nonsense.  Legit.  The 2 most famous of all draft evaluators didnt even have Wilson #2.

The pressure to get that quarterback, you have to go get somebody," Kiper said earlier this month on ESPN. "I think Justin Fields is the second-best quarterback in this draft

McShay had Clemson’s Trevor Lawrence at No. 1, Ohio State’s Justin Fields at No. 2, North Dakota State’s Trey Lance at No. 3, BYU’s Zach Wilson at No. 4 and Alabama’s Mac Jones at No. 5.

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1 hour ago, Lith said:

I am going to preface this by saying that I desperately want Zach Wilson to be good.  I take no pleasure in seeing him struggle.

Coming into the season, the one thing I wanted to avoid was the need to rationalize Wilson's performance.  Like we rationalized Sanchez (below average numbers, maddeningly inconsistent, but road playoff wins and 4th quarter comebacks in his first two years.  He was gonna be great, right?) and we rationlized Geno (lousy numbers, but strong finish to year 2, perfect passer rating against Miami, he figured it out, right?).  And we rationlized Sam (no OL, no weapons, mono, bad situation, bad HC.  Surround him with a competent offense and he will be great, right?).  

Ane we are doing it again with Zach.  He has been bad.  Like I said, I desperately want him to be good.  He has not been.  7 games do not make a career, but I really want to see more out of him over the next 6 games so we don't have to rationallize away his rookie year.  Just like we did for Sanchez, and Geno and Darnold.

Since 2009, there have been 49 QBs who started at least 7 games as a rookie.  Through 7 games, Wilson's passer rating of 62.9 ranks 44th.  Does not mean all is lost, as Matthew Stafford and Josh Allen are bottom 10 along with WIlson.  But most of the guys who sucked through 7 games, went on to suck (Kizer, Clausen, Freeman, Rosen, Gabbert, Sanchez and Goff).

 

Exactly.    We’ll know it when we see it.  We see it with AVT, Carter and Moore.  We can see they can play in the NFL right now.   We don’t need multiple screen shots of a fraction of a play and endless mental gymnastics to tell us they belong in the NFL.  Granted Qb is harder, but we’ve seen QBs come in and during their rookie season we can see they belong.  Right now Zach is a giant question mark. 

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