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The All Things Zach Wilson Thread: MERGED


Barry McCockinner
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14 minutes ago, GangGreened said:

This. It’s what these guys that will shamelessly defend Wilson to no end want to ignore.

We were terrible on offense with Zach. Zach exits. We lead the LEAGUE in offensive yards when Zach is out. Re insert Zach. Offense is back to being terrible.

it’s not the offensive line. It’s not the weaponz. It’s not LaFleur. It’s not where he calls plays from. 

The issue is Zach Wilson is the 4th best QB on this roster 

Think you hit the nail on the uncomfortable head 

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2 minutes ago, Bruce Harper said:

Obviously, QB is a much tougher position so it's not all that helpful to compare him to the other rookies.  I am not saying I'm not discouraged.  I'm just not sure how relevant the progress of the non-QB rookies is.

Said this in another post. WR is very difficult to make the transition  to the pro game. 

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29 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

First off, WR is one of the most difficult  positions to transition to and Moore seems to have done it. AVT is playing a OL scheme he has never seen before. None of the OL have and he is looking very good. Zach is having problems with the basics. Yes, every so often the kid makes a play and some really good throws but it's like maybe 50% of his passes you are saying what is wrong with him. Even the short pass to Barrios where he had the long RAC, it was a low pass. 

So you are confirming you think learning curves for other positions are similar?  Got it.

Also, do some research before you try to sound like you know what you are talking about.  Vera-Tucker played in a heavy zone scheme at USC.  It would have taken all of 5 seconds for you to verify that. Instead, you spew an uneducated “opinion” thinking you are putting me in my place.  We live in an age we’re nearly everything is able to be fax checked in seconds.  I’d start trying it out if I were you.

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This. It’s what these guys that will shamelessly defend Wilson to no end want to ignore.
We were terrible on offense with Zach. Zach exits. We lead the LEAGUE in offensive yards when Zach is out. Re insert Zach. Offense is back to being terrible.
it’s not the offensive line. It’s not the weaponz. It’s not LaFleur. It’s not where he calls plays from. 
The issue is Zach Wilson is the 4th best QB on this roster 


Josh Johnson and Mike White are not rookies. The plays that they’ve been asked to execute they probably seen a hundred times…on many different teams. Zach is being asked to execute these for the first time. It may take a couple of years to fix his accuracy ala Josh Allen, but once he fixes it he will be the franchise QB. I don’t know what it is with Jets rookie QBs..it seems like they have a very short leash…..and any progress they make it a step forward and every mistake is like 10 steps back….other teams fans expect this….but not here.


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How much time is enough? More than half a season. You can point out all of the outliers you want, from Josh Rosen to Justin Herbert. But if you want to have a good idea of what will probably happen, it's obvious which QBs are booms or busts by year 2 or rarely 3 on average. Not every QB is like Justin Herbert as a rookie, but just because a rookie QB plays badly doesn't main he's a disaster. 

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LOL - No way JD dumps Zack next year (or he will be dumped); so, it doesn't matter. That being said, it normally takes a good QB 3 years to turn the corner (but they should be showing progress prior to then); However, QBs often have a sophamore slump (can't happen now as I don't think he can get worse).

I am hoping that Zack starts to settle back down and shows progress before year end, but I wouldn't count on it... meanwhile the running game and some of the offensive weapons are showing promise...

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33 minutes ago, GangGreened said:

This. It’s what these guys that will shamelessly defend Wilson to no end want to ignore.

We were terrible on offense with Zach. Zach exits. We lead the LEAGUE in offensive yards when Zach is out. Re insert Zach. Offense is back to being terrible.

it’s not the offensive line. It’s not the weaponz. It’s not LaFleur. It’s not where he calls plays from. 

The issue is Zach Wilson is the 4th best QB on this roster 

But the White defenders whole heartedly acknowledge he’s been utter dogs*** outside of the Bengals game right?  Excuse me.  Plus one drive against the Colts.

I mean they obviously would acknowledge that rather than frame it as he’s played so well.  Right?

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I like two seasons (32 starts), myself. 

I have heard people say 25 starts and others say 40 starts. So somewhere in that 20-40 start range seems right, depending on how it is going. Sam got 38 starts here (it would have been 48 if not for the annual injuries). 
 

to me, there is no point in drafting a QB at #2 overall if you are not going to give him a chance to improve. Guys who tear sh*t up right away like Dan Mariano and Justin Herbert are the exception, not the rule. As an absolute minimum, you need to see what he looks like after another NFL offseason (or 2). Many QBs have taken BIG jumps in years 2 and 3. Lots of guys have struggled as rookies. 

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12 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

So you are confirming you think learning curves for other positions are similar?  Got it.

Also, do some research before you try to sound like you know what you are talking about.  Vera-Tucker played in a heavy zone scheme at USC.  It would have taken all of 5 seconds for you to verify that. Instead, you spew an uneducated “opinion” thinking you are putting me in my place.  We live in an age we’re nearly everything is able to be fax checked in seconds.  I’d start trying it out if I were you.

It's  not the same as the one he is in now. I knew all about USC zone blocking scheme. Gase ran a zone blocking scheme as well. Do you think that was the same as what they run today?

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Just now, HawkeyeJet said:

But the White defenders whole heartedly acknowledge he’s been utter dogs*** outside of the Bengals game right?  Excuse me.  Plus one drive against the Colts.

I mean they obviously would acknowledge that rather than frame it as he’s played so well.  Right?

I think they want to see more of him for this very reason. They got one great game against a good defense, one dreadful game against a good defense, and a good drive in between. Mike White is not a franchise QB though, I have no interest in seeing more of him unless Zach can’t play.

 

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1 hour ago, HighPitch said:

Such an old tired line.

News flash: bmws are really nice and fun to own.

I also own lots of guns, so i guess that means…. That like…. Uhhh you know.

Can’t be tired if it’s still relevant. You enjoy your status symbols, I’ll be over here not investing in over-priced crap that depreciates. I will never understand anyone who thinks that driving is somehow fun.

 

I own guns. I have no problem with anyone who owns a couple of guns. If you own “lots” of guns, I think you’re weird.

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54 minutes ago, slats said:

That’s a pretty arbitrary hard number, lol, but I agree in general with the sentiment. He’ll spend the entire offseason as the incumbent starting QB, and start next season in that role. They might want to bring in a different/better backup in the offseason on the off chance they look to make a change. Will definitely want to see some improvement over the rest of the year, and a jump next year. But I don’t know when they’ll bail on him. Josh Allen sucked for two full seasons. 

Lets say Zach shows us nothing for the remainder of the season do we not have a QB competition White Vs Wilson ? How can you not ? Oh that's right because Zach is the second overall pick and Mike White is better can't have that happening

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18 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

So you are confirming you think learning curves for other positions are similar?  Got it.

Also, do some research before you try to sound like you know what you are talking about.  Vera-Tucker played in a heavy zone scheme at USC.  It would have taken all of 5 seconds for you to verify that. Instead, you spew an uneducated “opinion” thinking you are putting me in my place.  We live in an age we’re nearly everything is able to be fax checked in seconds.  I’d start trying it out if I were you.

Fax GIFs - Get the best GIF on GIPHY

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4 minutes ago, doitny said:

the problem is he didnt try a pass over 20 or so yds yesterday. its like there making him change his progressions to check the deep pass at the end 

His progression  is dictated by what the defense is giving him. This is actually what Zach has been struggling with IMO. He is and has been looking to make the splash play so he is focusing on the guys running  the post. He should be reading the D and deciding where he is going to make his primary  read by what they are doing and showing. 

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1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

All the people who have defended Zach are basically saying the same thing. He has only played about 6 games. I understand there is a big jump from college to the NFL but we are seeing the other rookies starting to settle in. Both Michael Carter's, Moore, AVT, even Echoles before he was hurt was showing improvement. Has Zach fixed anything? I think yesterday he made a real effort to play within the offensive system but what we saw is he wasn't really that good at it. More so his receivers bailed him out on some of the short passes by catching the low pass or ball thrown behind them rather than Zach making well timed and placed passes. So do we just give Zach a pass on the rest of the season? I know some are not giving him a pass at all and I don't  think there is a QB in this coming draft class that is worth giving Zach the Rosen treatment, but even as bad a Peyton was in his first season, it was just the massive amount of picks. You could see the other great attributes.  I just don't see it with Zach. Actually every game I see a new issue. This game was the first one I saw he had no touch on some short ones. How long until the light goes on. It already has for the other rookies.

Edit for Maxman

Yes, I know we won. That doesn't  mean our QB is taking the same steps forward the other rookies are.

Posted this elsewhere, but will keep repeating it:

It is likely Zack Wilson will get three seasons to show if he is or isn't the Franchise QB he is hoped by the Jets to be.

It is very rare for an organization to cut bait with a #2 draft pick QB sooner than that.  Not unheard of (Rosen) but rare.

Jets history shows we tend to give QB's at least three years:  

Darnold got three.  Geno Smith got three.  Mark Sanchez got four.  All were later picks than Zach Wilson.

I think we, as fans, should be resigned to the idea that Zach Wilson will be our presumed #1 QB for the remainder of 2021, all of 2022 and all of 2023.  

That's 40 games from this point to the end of 2023.  That means Zach is 22% of the way through his evaluation so far, and after next weeks game will be ~25% of the way through this three-year-evaluation period. 

25% is more than enough time to form opinions and analysis.  His missing time is a part of that opinion/analysis.

So this is where we are, happy or not about it.  40 more games for Zach to prove himself or not.

On to the Eagles.

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I am not encouraged by the lack of Wilson's progress up until this point, but I am not ready to give up on him. For the remainder of the season, I need to see steady improvement on the basics. I've seen enough of his hero ball to know that he is at least capable in that department. 

Wilson's progress is on Wilson. It's not the line. It's not his weopinzzzzzz, and it's not LaFleur. He has to throw catchable passes to his receivers. Jerry Rice with a glove covered in Stickum is not catching these errant passes. 

 

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9 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

It's  not the same as the one he is in now. I knew all about USC zone blocking scheme. Gase ran a zone blocking scheme as well. Do you think that was the same as what they run today?

Care to Explain to me the variations in zone blocking schemes?

Actually, I don’t even need that.  Just walk me through the principles of zone blocking.  

If you can’t tell I don’t think you have the slightest idea what you are talking about.

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2 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Care to Explain to me the variations in zone blocking schemes?

Actually, I don’t even need that.  Just walk me through the principles of zone blocking.  

If you can’t tell I don’t think you have the slightest idea what you are talking about.

Zone blocking is where an OL is responsible for an area or zone as opposed to blocking a particular player. It requires OL who are quick rather than brutes who just over power the player.

I know this is a very basic description but it's pretty much what you asked for. 

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I was worried that there wasn’t a Zach bashing thread in 10 minutes… Thank goodness…

yes, let’s overreact…. Coming out of the preseason, he was going to be the rookie of the year…

There is passion , and there is stupidity… He was picked at number two, not giving up until the end of next season, Josh Allen says hello…

Oops time for another Zach bashing post…

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11 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

I am not encouraged by the lack of Wilson's progress up until this point, but I am not ready to give up on him. For the remainder of the season, I need to see steady improvement on the basics. I've seen enough of his hero ball to know that he is at least capable in that department. 

Wilson's progress is on Wilson. It's not the line. It's not his weopinzzzzzz, and it's not LaFleur. He has to throw catchable passes to his receivers. Jerry Rice with a glove covered in Stickum is not catching these errant passes. 

 

If anything has been established over the past month it's that the reasons for Zachs struggles are nobodies but his own so all the excuses are out the window and just sound silly.  

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1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

All the people who have defended Zach are basically saying the same thing. He has only played about 6 games. I understand there is a big jump from college to the NFL but we are seeing the other rookies starting to settle in. Both Michael Carter's, Moore, AVT, even Echoles before he was hurt was showing improvement.

I was right with you until you went with the progression of non-QB Rookies like Michael Carter, especially when RBs generally always start off well. 

We all know Mac Jones has played well, but Lawrence, Fields, Lance continue to struggle or can't even get on the field. 

So I will give up on Zach around the same time you are prepared to give up on Lawrence, Fields and Lance. 

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1 hour ago, maury77 said:

He isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. Earliest you can even have this discussion is 2023.

Disagree. Otherwise we are back in a Hackenberg vicious circle. If Wilson shows insufficient improvement between Sunday and the end of the season, a smart GM prepares for FA and the draft with close scrutiny on QBs.

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2 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

I was right with you until you went with the progression of non-QB Rookies like Michael Carter, especially when RBs generally always start off well. 

We all know Mac Jones has played well, but Lawrence, Fields, Lance continue to struggle or can't even get on the field. 

So I will give up on Zach around the same time you are prepared to give up on Lawrence, Fields and Lance. 

Considering i have zero interest  in any of those QB's, I guess you already gave up on Zack

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7 minutes ago, LSJF said:

I was worried that there wasn’t a Zach bashing thread in 10 minutes… Thank goodness…

yes, let’s overreact…. Coming out of the preseason, he was going to be the rookie of the year…

There is passion , and there is stupidity… He was picked at number two, not giving up until the end of next season, Josh Allen says hello…

Oops time for another Zach bashing post…

Right. Nobody should have an opinion on Zach no matter how well or poorly he plays

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1 hour ago, JerseyJoe67 said:

Not sticking up for Zack here but to be honest this team as a whole has not been showing any signs of growth in any capacity under this coaching staff.
 

Agree with this fully.  Hard to make any evaluation on any single area of the team be it the players or the coaches when *everything* is just so bad.  

From the beginning, I liked Saleh as a coach.  The more I watch the Jets, the more I am compelled to think otherwise. 

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1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

All the people who have defended Zach are basically saying the same thing. He has only played about 6 games. I understand there is a big jump from college to the NFL but we are seeing the other rookies starting to settle in. Both Michael Carter's, Moore, AVT, even Echoles before he was hurt was showing improvement. Has Zach fixed anything? I think yesterday he made a real effort to play within the offensive system but what we saw is he wasn't really that good at it. More so his receivers bailed him out on some of the short passes by catching the low pass or ball thrown behind them rather than Zach making well timed and placed passes. So do we just give Zach a pass on the rest of the season? I know some are not giving him a pass at all and I don't  think there is a QB in this coming draft class that is worth giving Zach the Rosen treatment, but even as bad a Peyton was in his first season, it was just the massive amount of picks. You could see the other great attributes.  I just don't see it with Zach. Actually every game I see a new issue. This game was the first one I saw he had no touch on some short ones. How long until the light goes on. It already has for the other rookies.

Edit for Maxman

Yes, I know we won. That doesn't  mean our QB is taking the same steps forward the other rookies are.

wasn't wilson an only so-so college qb before his final year at byu?  he worked on his game and had a stellar year.  the same can happen to him with the jets.  i think we'll find out in a few more games if he can be the guy they want.

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