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If both Jets picks are in the top 10


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3 minutes ago, slats said:

Taking premium positions with premium picks is not bull****. It’s a necessity. You just don’t take RBs or Safeties or Guards that high. I’d consider a TE, but only if that TE appears to be a true #1 WR type like Pitts. The reason you don’t take those other positions is because they’re easily replaceable. Up that high, it’s QB, Edge, LT, WR, and maybe a man CB or beast M/SLB. This draft should give them that Edge. LB and WR would be the other premium needs, but this draft doesn’t look like it’s going to have those positions in the top ten. 

We will have to agree to disagree and this because yes it is total bullsh*t and its why so many teams reach for those so called premium positions and wind up sh*tting the bed while the really good football players fall in the draft to the better drafting teams. The stupid ass combine contributes to this crap as well. Not saying the combine is not necessary but too many bad players get drafted because you know OMG 4.3 speed or OMG 45 Reps.. . You take players based on how they play the game not by what a bunch of talking heads feel is a premium position. Sometimes I wonder just how much GM's are actually influenced by the guys who cover the draft and how much the fans play into their bullsh*t narratives like premium positions.

So the positions you mention are also the biggest crap shoots. Personally I take the player I know or feel is going to be the best football player if that just so happens not to be a premium position oh well.  The only Player I take the early crap shoot on is the QB position after that its about the football player not the premium position. If that player I target just so happens to be that premium position you speak of then that's the way the chips fall and everyone's happy. This league over all is going in the direction of "Stupid Football" anyhow . How do you stop a HOF caliber QB (which is the most important task in the NFL since its inception) ? The answer is you don't stop him you keep him off the field with a stout Running game and take charge of the game controlling the clock and the Line Of Scrimmage . In that respect you build an O-line and get a RB who has shown to be durable and will put a hurt on opposing defenses. But everyone wants WR's because you know Premium position. Joe D seems to have it down pat and the guy not only took a Guard he traded up to get him WHY ? Because the kid is a stud football player "not a premium position"

The Absolute Perfectly built team was the Cowboys of the early to mid 90's who had a QB who could barely reach 15 TD's a year or 3000 yards but they had a great Running game and regularly beat the high flying offenses of the day who were putting up just as many yards and were just as explosive as the offenses today. They had the trifecta on offense Irvin (big Possession WR) Emmitt Smith (shut close games down in the 4th Quarter) and a great TE in Novacek (also a huge possession guy) They also had incredible safeties ...but hey you would not have drafted Emmitt Smith in the first round cause not premium.

To me the most important position on the Offense behind the QB is the RB if you get a RB like a Jonathan Taylor or a Marshall Faulk you not only have a dual threat RB that defense have to deal with but you also take a ton pressure off your young QB... Taylor also happens to be a great blocker. So that's 3 things that guy does as one player Block, Run, Receive, but you know not really premium..... name me another position that's does all that ? You Can't and if a stud is available early in the draft you take him for those 3 reasons . He gets hurt ? Oh well because all the premium positions you list have just as much chance to get hurt. 

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If someone can assure me that Hamilton is going to be Polamalu or Reed then I would do it, otherwise I'm passing on a safety in the top 10.  Personally I would: - Draft the best pass rusher w

Premier positions only. Pick two out of Edge rusher, OT, CB. Outside the Top 10, look at TE, WR and C.   If you spend more than just 3 seconds thinking about it you'll realize that

No...  I get it, he's a fantastic safety. I feel there are a lot of holes on the roster that I'd rather cover (Edge, Oline, LB, CB, TE) that could be addressed by trading back or picking BPA from

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2 hours ago, jgb said:

Saleh's scheme doesn't rely on blitzes but on organic pressure. Jets need to find an Edge. And I don't mean putting all our eggs on Lawson's repaired Achilles. Lawson was always a straight-line speed guy. I worry greatly about how his already-pedestrian burst and lateral agility will be affected by his second major leg surgery.

Agreed but he was owning the great Becton ;) consistently throughout training camp before he got hurt

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7 minutes ago, Bronxville Jets Fan said:

C’mon, that’s obviously different and I can’t see a non-QB needy team having any of these QBs ranked in the top 10 on their draft board.

Yeah sorry, it's a bit of a personal crusade to opine that BAP doesn't actually exist.

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https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2022-nfl-draft-board-big-board

 

Quote

 

1. EDGE AIDAN HUTCHINSON, MICHIGAN

Call it an overreaction to the weekend if you want, but I see it as more of a culmination. Hutchinson has been playing the elite brand of football we saw against Ohio State all season, but this past weekend's showing just happened to come on the biggest stage against arguably the best tackle he’s faced all year in Nicholas Petit-Frere. Hutchinson finished with 15 pressures against the Buckeyes in Week 13 and is the highest-graded defender in the country.

2. EDGE KAYVON THIBODEAUX, OREGON

Thibodeaux is an explosive, long and bendy edge rusher who’s only just scratching the surface of what he could be. Thibodeaux has a 91.5 pass-rushing grade and 46 pressures this season, even with a limited set of pass-rush moves.

3. S KYLE HAMILTON, NOTRE DAME

At 6-foot-4 and 220 pounds, Hamilton is a modern hybrid defender who can do whatever is asked. While he missed Notre Dame’s final five games with a minor knee injury, he came down with three picks and three pass breakups in his first seven.

4. CB DEREK STINGLEY JR., LSU

This ranking is banking a lot on what Stingley put on tape a long time ago, but it’s not as if that talent went anywhere. He has allowed only a 41.1% completion percentage for his career and has been starting since his freshman year.

5. OT EVAN NEAL, ALABAMA

The mammoth 6-foot-7, 350-pounder is one of the most imposing specimens ever to grace this earth — and he moves like a man 50 pounds lighter. He’s only allowed 22 pressures the past two years between left and right tackle.

Screen-Shot-2021-11-28-at-3.42.17-PM.png
PFF’s WR/CB Matchup Chart is a fantasy football tool that you can use to help you set the best lineups. You can toggle between showing the Matchup Advantage column against all projected coverage or the individual defenders.

6. IOL TYLER LINDERBAUM, IOWA

The best center prospect we’ve seen in the PFF College era. He was already the highest-graded center in the country in 2020, but he has taken his game to new heights in 2021, earning a 95.3 overall grade.

 

 

Hutchinson, Thibodeaux, Stingley, Neal, Linderbaum.

Pick two.  

Hamilton is the last player in their top-6.  If our second pick is at #6 or lower and he's still there, I think you can consider him.  But taking a Safety at #6 is going to trigger some people on this board and I'm here for it.

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3 minutes ago, nycdan said:

https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2022-nfl-draft-board-big-board

 

 

Hutchinson, Thibodeaux, Stingley, Neal, Linderbaum.

Pick two.  

Hamilton is the last player in their top-6.  If our second pick is at #6 or lower and he's still there, I think you can consider him.  But taking a Safety at #6 is going to trigger some people on this board and I'm here for it.

if he is an injury concern like some have mentioned I think we should steer clear or at least i hope we do

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8 hours ago, Jetsfan4life90 said:

I wouldn't mind Hamilton if he's projected to be a ball hawk coverage type safety, not a strong safety. 

He's universally well regarded but what top 10 safety has been worth it since Eric Berry?

the problem is that compared to offensive or defensive lineman, safeties aren't involved in every play.  Lineman impact every single play.  and CB as we know is a much for vital position.  All positions are important, just some more than others. 

I pray that Hamilton gets taken before our pick thus pushing down a more important position guy to us.

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1 hour ago, Claymation said:

Without premier QBs in this draft, I seriously doubt someone would want to move up. Corral and Picketts could go 1-2, after that I don't see anyone.

Edge is a need, probably the biggest. I would look at Hutchinson, Thibodeaux or Karlaftis in that order. Neal or Ekwonu would be my next pick. I would address LB Dean, Harris or Smith in the 2nd along with a WR that has dropped.

 

Eh.  There's always somebody looking to move up for someone.  And there's always a "late riser" at QB, too.  

Plenty of time between now and April.

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2 hours ago, Rhg1084 said:

Only problem is there’s no LB TE or WR worth drafting with a top pick in this draft. If you’re saying don’t draft Hamilton or Stingley who the heck we gonna draft lol? I guess it’d have to be OT Neal then. Go do research on the draft and assign player names to these picks. The more I look at it the more I think our 2nd 1st round pick will def be either Stingley or Hamilton 

This quite often happens - we look at all the positions that we can't / shouldn't take and end up with fewer positions than we have picks. it's very easy to talk ourselves out of a lot of things.

Just because a system is designed to work with lower level talent (e.g. our DB group) doesn't preclude us from taking one and making the unit stronger overall. All it means is that given the choice we'll prioritize Edge over DB. But if you've addressed Edge in FA / earlier draft pick, then CB comes into play if a blue-chip talent is there for the taking.

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2 hours ago, Barton said:

Brah, the trade would be #4 overall pick + Jets 2nd rd pick to move up for Thibs. 

so would you take the #7 overall and a 2nd rd pick from a team for #4 overall? i bet not.

its #1 overall and there only walking away with 1 extra pick? no way.

we gave 3 2nd rd picks to move up to get Sam. not happing pal

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1 hour ago, Smashmouth said:

The Absolute Perfectly built team was the Cowboys of the early to mid 90's who had a QB who could barely reach 15 TD's a year or 3000 yards but they had a great Running game and regularly beat the high flying offenses of the day who were putting up just as many yards and were just as explosive as the offenses today. They had the trifecta on offense Irvin (big Possession WR) Emmitt Smith (shut close games down in the 4th Quarter) and a great TE in Novacek (also a huge possession guy) They also had incredible safeties ...but hey you would not have drafted Emmitt Smith in the first round cause not premium.

You've gotta be kidding me here.  You use the COWBOYS, of all teams, as a reason to draft a RB early?  Their OL was even better than the 2009 Jets dude.  Emmitt Smith was certainly a HOF RB in his own right, but FFS, pick a better example if you're going to suggest the RB is the 2nd most important position in an offense.  On that team, the OL was clearly the most important aspect of the offense.  

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1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You've gotta be kidding me here.  You use the COWBOYS, of all teams, as a reason to draft a RB early?  Their OL was even better than the 2009 Jets dude.  Emmitt Smith was certainly a HOF RB in his own right, but FFS, pick a better example if you're going to suggest the RB is the 2nd most important position in an offense.  On that team, the OL was clearly the most important aspect of the offense.  

Walter Payton 1 SB

John Riggins 1 SB

Marshall Faulk 1 SB 2 appearances

Franco Harris 4 SB

Smith 3 SB

Thurman Thomas 4 SB appear

Otis Anderson 1 SB

Marcus Allen 1 SB

Terrell Davis 2 SB

Matt Snell 1SB ran all over the great Colts Defense and controlled that game

Top SB Performances: Roger Craig in Super Bowl XIX

Jan 04, 2016

Running back Roger Craig does it all in Super Bowl XIX, scoring three touchdowns in the 49ers 38-16 win against the Dolphins.

You could make the argument none of those teams win as much as they did without those RB's nor would their QB's have been as successful other than Joe Montana

You could make the argument Kurt Warner never approaches the success he did without Faulk and he even said as much on the air.

Were all those guys 1st rounders ? I think they were but you know not really premium.

Todays game 

Jonathan Taylor 

Derrick Henry (now Injured)

Alvin Kamara

I'm leaving a lot of backs out but some of those backs mentioned above put their teams over the top teams that were not bale to get it done until they arrived namely Terrell Davis and Marshall Faulk and Otis Anderson who kept the ball out of the Bills hands in a game the Bills scored every time they touched the ball until the last drive. if the giants did not have those 9 min sustained drives led by Otis Anderson the SB MVP they don't come close to winning that game.

Controlling the ball and keeping it out of the oppositions hands still holds true today yet teams still go for the flash and thats exactly what they become flashed in the pan. 

Peyton manning had Eddgerin James in his early years to help him along and dont think for a second that was not instrumental in his development because it was.

And if were talking about "gotta be kidding me" its astounding how you don't see the value at the position and not only what they do for TOP but what they do in the development of a young QB. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Walter Payton 1 SB

John Riggins 1 SB

Marshall Faulk 1 SB 2 appearances

Franco Harris 4 SB

Smith 3 SB

Thurman Thomas 4 SB appear

Otis Anderson 1 SB

Marcus Allen 1 SB

Terrell Davis 2 SB

Matt Snell 1SB ran all over the great Colts Defense and controlled that game

Top SB Performances: Roger Craig in Super Bowl XIX

Jan 04, 2016

Running back Roger Craig does it all in Super Bowl XIX, scoring three touchdowns in the 49ers 38-16 win against the Dolphins.

You could make the argument none of those teams win as much as they did without those RB's nor would their QB's have been as successful other than Joe Montana

You could make the argument Kurt Warner never approaches the success he did without Faulk and he even said as much on the air.

Were all those guys 1st rounders ? I think they were but you know not really premium.

Todays game 

Jonathan Taylor 

Derrick Henry (now Injured)

Alvin Kamara

I'm leaving a lot of backs out but some of those backs mentioned above put their teams over the top teams that were not bale to get it done until they arrived namely Terrell Davis and Marshall Faulk and Otis Anderson who kept the ball out of the Bills hands in a game the Bills scored every time they touched the ball until the last drive. if the giants did not have those 9 min sustained drives led by Otis Anderson the SB MVP they don't come close to winning that game.

Controlling the ball and keeping it out of the oppositions hands still holds true today yet teams still go for the flash and thats exactly what they become flashed in the pan. 

Peyton manning had Eddgerin James in his early years to help him along and dont think for a second that was not instrumental in his development because it was.

And if were talking about "gotta be kidding me" its astounding how you don't see the value at the position and not only what they do for TOP but what they do in the development of a young QB. 

 

 

I see value in the position.  I just don't see 1st or 2nd round value in a position whose shelf life only lasts 4-5 years at most, and also has a pretty high bust rate.  It's a sinkhole of draft resources.

It would also have helped your cause if most of the RBs you listed above weren't ancient.  And wasn't Terrell Davis a 6th round pick?  lol.

In the NFL in 2021, RB just isn't that valuable.  You can find good ones in the middle rounds.  A 1st/2nd round pick is just not the place to take one.  When you look at what happened to CMC, Barkley, and even Derrick Henry this year, the juice just isn't worth the squeeze.  

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29 minutes ago, slats said:

Yes, we’re going to have to agree to disagree because I’m all about the RB by committee. I would never use a premium pick on a RB when 5’10”-210lb dudes who run a 4.5 40 are endlessly available. The offense the Jets are running regularly makes stars out of late picks and UDFAs, like that Walter guy this week. 

endlessly available and endlessly contributing nothing like the guys I mentioned above. Sure some 3 and 4th round guys pan out just like any other position but its rare and they usually are just flashes in the pan. if there is a back like the ones I mentioned above and you need a RB especially with a young QB finding his way you take him every time IMHO.

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1 minute ago, Smashmouth said:

endlessly available and endlessly contributing nothing like the guys I mentioned above. Sure some 3 and 4th round guys pan out just like any other position but its rare and they usually are just flashes in the pan. if there is a back like the ones I mentioned above and you need a RB especially with a young QB finding his way you take him every time IMHO.

3rd/4th round RB's panning out is not discernibly less likely than a 1st/2nd round RB working out, and doesn't come with the huge missed opportunity cost you could have used on a position that may well last a lot longer, like G or C. 

I can give you a long list of 1st/2nd round RB's who have been miserable busts, if you'd like.

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6 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Dave Gettleman is an Idiot but I was not against his pick of Barkley to help protect what was going to be his young QB of the future 

The Barkley pick is a huge reason he's an idiot.  Barkley has done an awful lot to help Daniel Jones not be a bust and has really moved the needle for that franchise, that's for sure!!!  And Barkley was GOOD when healthy.  That should be a cautionary tale for any GM looking to draft a RB high.  Even when he's good, it still doesn't help your franchise much.

Gettleman should have traded down from the # 2 pick.  

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

 

I see value in the position.  I just don't see 1st or 2nd round value in a position whose shelf life only lasts 4-5 years at most, and also has a pretty high bust rate.  It's a sinkhole of draft resources.

It would also have helped your cause if all the RBs you listed above weren't ancient.  And wasn't Terrell Davis a 6th round pick?  lol.

In the NFL in 2021, RB just isn't that valuable.  You can find good ones in the middle rounds.  A 1st/2nd round pick is just not the place to take one.  When you look at what happened to CMC, Barkley, and even Derrick Henry this year, the juice just isn't worth the squeeze.  

I know Davis was a sixth round pick I was just trying to show my opinion on the value of the position and that I would not hesitate if one of those types were available in round 1 . If the QB is so valuable and development early is so damn important the only real position that takes pressure off the young QB is the RB position and its not even close. So why then does the RB position not become even more of a value pick based on what he can do for the most Important pick in the game.

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2 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

endlessly available and endlessly contributing nothing like the guys I mentioned above. Sure some 3 and 4th round guys pan out just like any other position but its rare and they usually are just flashes in the pan. if there is a back like the ones I mentioned above and you need a RB especially with a young QB finding his way you take him every time IMHO.

Terrell Davis is the only guy on that list that matters, a sixth round pick turned into a superstar in the Shanahan offense. A thing that happens in this offense with regularity. And these guys understand that. 

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1 minute ago, Smashmouth said:

I know Davis was a sixth round pick I was just trying to show my opinion on the value of the position and that I would not hesitate if one of those types were available in round 1 . If the QB is so valuable and development early is so damn important the only real position that takes pressure off the young QB is the RB position and its not even close. So why then does the RB position not become even more of a value pick based on what he can do for the most Important pick in the game.

RB's don't help bad QB's.  CMC did not save Sam Darnold.  Barkley does nothing for Daniel Jones.

RB's are not a QB's "best friend".  OL and receivers are.  RB's just get hurt.  A lot.  They're a giant c*ck tease, and one you evidently fall for at every turn.

I'm very glad this GM and coaching staff see a lot more importance in the OL than the RB.

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3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

3rd/4th round RB's panning out is not discernibly less likely than a 1st/2nd round RB working out, and doesn't come with the huge missed opportunity cost you could have used on a position that may well last a lot longer, like G or C. 

I can give you a long list of 1st/2nd round RB's who have been miserable busts, if you'd like.

80 every pick in every draft is taking a chance you never know what might happen we can go round and round on that all day long. Im looking for protection for our young QB's 

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2 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

80 every pick in every draft is taking a chance you never know what might happen we can go round and round on that all day long. Im looking for protection for our young QB's 

And yet RB's bust at a higher rate in the 1st/2nd rounds compared to many other positions. 

If you're going to use a 1st/2nd round pick on a position that only lasts about 4 years, you had better draft a stud.  And yet far too many of those RB's end up duds, making it an even riskier proposition.

And like I said above.  RB's offer very little "protection" for young QB's.  There's no discernible proof, especially in today's NFL, that RB's help young QB's, especially if those QB's are bad.

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1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

RB's don't help bad QB's.  CMC did not save Sam Darnold.  Barkley does nothing for Daniel Jones.

RB's are not a QB's "best friend".  OL and receivers are.  RB's just get hurt.  

Sam Darnold was doing good in the beginning of the year with CMC and I was the one (and I know you saw this) who said as soon as CMC gets run into the ground Sam will sh*t the bed and he did exactly that in exactly the game that he got hurt Sam went right in the toilet. So CMC made a really bad QB look good when he was healthy

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

And yet RB's bust at a higher rate in the 1st/2nd rounds compared to many other positions. 

If you're going to use a 1st/2nd round pick on a position that only lasts about 4 years, you had better draft a stud.  And yet far too many of those RB's end up duds, making it an even riskier proposition.

The NY jets have not gotten Pro Bowl quality with all our early first round picks in about 12 years not one was a RB :) 

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Just now, Smashmouth said:

Sam Darnold was doing good in the beginning of the year with CMC and I was the one (and I know you saw this) who said as soon as CMC gets run into the ground Sam will sh*t the bed and he did exactly that in exactly the game that he got hurt Sam went right in the toilet. So CMC made a really bad QB look good when he was healthy

Darnold has had games with CMC in the lineup lately.  He still looked bad.

And CMC getting hurt all the time doesn't help your cause.  "When he's healthy" shouldn't need to be a constant qualifier you need to add for a player.  But since RB's get hurt more often than any other position, it's an enormous reason why you should NEVER use a 1st round pick on a RB, or give RB's a big 2nd contract.  

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1 minute ago, Smashmouth said:

The NY jets have not gotten Pro Bowl quality with all our early first round picks in about 12 years not one was a RB :) 

AVT >>>> Any RB we could have taken in the 1st round in the last 12 years in terms of potential value and importance to an offense over a lengthy period of time. 

AVT has the look of being a Pro Bowl caliber G for us for the next decade.  RB's last about 4 years.

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2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And yet RB's bust at a higher rate in the 1st/2nd rounds compared to many other positions. 

If you're going to use a 1st/2nd round pick on a position that only lasts about 4 years, you had better draft a stud.  And yet far too many of those RB's end up duds, making it an even riskier proposition.

Do you think Kurt Warner plays like an all time great his first few years without Marshall Faulk ? No way in hell because after that other than the one year with the Card's he didn't do much of anything.

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2 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Do you think Kurt Warner plays like an all time great his first few years without Marshall Faulk ? No way in hell because after that other than the one year with the Card's he didn't do much of anything.

You mean when he took one of the NFL's worst franchises to the Super Bowl?  lmao.  

Bet you can't name the RB of that AZ team.

Faulk was awesome.  And he was also brought in via trade, not drafted by the Rams.  So even in that instance, they didn't use a 1st round pick on him.

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2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Darnold has had games with CMC in the lineup lately.  He still looked bad.

And CMC getting hurt all the time doesn't help your cause.  "When he's healthy" shouldn't need to be a constant qualifier you need to add for a player.  But since RB's get hurt more often than any other position, it's an enormous reason why you should NEVER use a 1st round pick on a RB, or give RB's a big 2nd contract.  

Yeah true but I think CMC was having issues he was not the same guy we were used to seeing take over games

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