What are the Long Term Pieces of the Jets Offense Already In-Hand?

[adb280z]

1 hour ago, CanadaSteve said:

Because this is one of the blemishes on this FOS and CS.  Mims should be playing and developing.  Guys who average 18 yards a catch should play.  Yes, he has dropped balls.  Confidence is a funny thing; when it is entrusted to you, it grows.  When it is limited, it shrinks.  This is a lost season; you should be trying to coach a valuable draft commodity up, not down. 

In a lost season he is the kind of guy that they should be trying to feature.  That he isn't might not be an indictment of the coaching staff, it could be an indictment on Mims.  We don't know what's going on behind the scenes.

[Hex]

9 hours ago, jgb said:

Maybe he is a horse 

That would be an interesting horse, too!

[#27TheDominator]

59 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

I disagree about not needing a TE. A big target is a huge security blanket for QB’s in all levels of football. a sure handed big guy you can toss it to over the middle is an important option to have while scanning the field.

you should especially look into getting one if you have no big body WR to rely on

Who said we don't need a TE?  I think I might have been the only one arguing that Shanahan doesn't rely on 100+ target TEs.  I think they will bring in at least 2 more TEs.  I just disagree that they will be top fo the draft guys.  I think they will bring in at least 1 block first guy that is better than Wesco.  Probably a vet that is decent or maybe some injury risk guy (like the Niners bringing in Jordan Reed in 2020).  I don't see burning a first (particularly top 10) on a guy unless it's a Pitts level prospect.  

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Admittedly, I was probably wrong on Berrios' value.  I've never been a fan of his, to me he falls into the same category as Danny Woodhead did for me, a guy you keep when you just don't have anyone better and you don't want to spend anything on that depth spot.  

I think you and I had an annoying argument about Berrios.  Interesting guy for purposes of this thread.  He is an NFL player and belongs on roster, but I don't see him being somebody you "build around."  He is a guy you keep going forward if you can, but he doesn't solve any need other than preventing an Adrien Clarke/Chris Hogan disaster at slot, or providing a solid rotation piece.  

He is an UFA, so it will be interesting if he sticks around.  They have a ton of money, so he might, but he is not a guy you want to overspend on.  Besides questions about his value on the field, he is hurt  a ton.

[CanadaSteve]

1 hour ago, CanadaSteve said:

Because this is one of the blemishes on this FOS and CS.  Mims should be playing and developing.  Guys who average 18 yards a catch should play.  Yes, he has dropped balls.  Confidence is a funny thing; when it is entrusted to you, it grows.  When it is limited, it shrinks.  This is a lost season; you should be trying to coach a valuable draft commodity up, not down. 

Too many scooty snacks Mr. Doo Doo?  Not sure what is confusing about what I said.

[derp]

I think the original post hits the nail on the head. Vera-Tucker looks like a keeper at guard, Carter is a solid committee back you’re not going to want to replace, Moore looks like at worst a legitimately good starting receiver. 

Becton needs to prove he can stay healthy, Wilson is obviously unproven to date, Mims has battled consistency issues and the coaching staff doesn’t seem to like him. I like Ty Johnson as a rotational back but I don’t think he’s signed too long and he’s probably replaceable.

The free agent band aids are just that - band aids Douglas wants to replace via the draft. Duvernay-Tardif, Moses, Crowder, Cole, Berrios, and Kroft have all played roles and are free agents after this season. McGovern and Fant are clear cut starters who are free agents after next season. Davis is a free agent the following offseason.

Playing with talent is helpful for young quarterbacks. Allen and Murray took leaps after their teams added Diggs and Hopkins. Prescott developed in a great situation. Consistent quarterback play is what leads to teams having extended runs of success. We’re not sure if Wilson is the guy. He could use the help in his development. If he’s not the guy, the next guy could use a better situation.

When they drafted Wilson they said they’d elevate him. This offense isn’t good enough to truly elevate a guy yet.

That doesn’t mean forgo the defense or spend all draft picks on offense, but this offense is far from being built.

[CanadaSteve]

1 hour ago, thebuzzardman said:

Other than they kind of suck?

Here, I guess you need one of these as well.  Apparently your football accruement warrants one of these: 

[CanadaSteve]

58 minutes ago, adb280z said:

In a lost season he is the kind of guy that they should be trying to feature.  That he isn't might not be an indictment of the coaching staff, it could be an indictment on Mims.  We don't know what's going on behind the scenes.

I still call it an indictment on the staff.  If there are issues with Mims, as a coach, you gotta figure out how to use him.  The spent a 2nd round pick on him.  You gotta see what you got there.  Kid was highly regarded in the draft, and averages 18 yards a catch.  Get him on the field and see.  At the very least, make him trade bait.

[#27TheDominator]

8 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

I still call it an indictment on the staff.  If there are issues with Mims, as a coach, you gotta figure out how to use him.  The spent a 2nd round pick on him.  You gotta see what you got there.  Kid was highly regarded in the draft, and averages 18 yards a catch.  Get him on the field and see.  At the very least, make him trade bait.

You are going to indict the staff because he was a 2nd?  Every bust WR is not an indictment on the staff.  He has missed a ton of time and is not the best fit.  The idea that he is going to be some great help while Moore is running around open getting missed all day seems silly to me. 

His per catch average is a function of him not catching many balls  He is at 50%. Jeff Smith has better than a full yard more per target.  This is like stumping for Jonathan Carter. He has the tools.  He may end up being good, but thinking it makes sense to force coaches to play a kid that was never good in the NFL is ridiculous.  The season is about helping Wilson.  If Mims can't, **** him. 

[Warfish]

27 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I think you and I had an annoying argument about Berrios.

Certainly possible, I have been VERY dismissive of guys like Berrios for a very long time.  And I must admit, my view could very much have been wrong in not seeing them as important role-players a bit further down the depth chart.

27 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Interesting guy for purposes of this thread.  He is an NFL player and belongs on roster, but I don't see him being somebody you "build around."  He is a guy you keep going forward if you can, but he doesn't solve any need other than preventing an Adrien Clarke/Chris Hogan disaster at slot, or providing a solid rotation piece.  

He is an UFA, so it will be interesting if he sticks around.  They have a ton of money, so he might, but he is not a guy you want to overspend on.  Besides questions about his value on the field, he is hurt  a ton.

I think this is right, and not far from why I was dismissive actually.  I think, perhaps, that my objection to "Berrios" talk was always around him being inflated to be something legit, something like a #2 WR or the like.  I do not think he is.

But as a valuable piece, for depth, for returns (if we don't have anyone better or those who are better can't be risked on returns) he's fine.  In point of fact, with Crowder likely moving on, and perhaps not enough draft capital to solve all our problems, keeping Berrios may be quite wise going forward, as a low-cost, experienced, still-get-use-as-return-man backup to Moore in the slot.  

To be clear, I do not want to see him starting or getting alot of plays at WR, but I also no longer want him immediately replaced as I once did.

[thebuzzardman]

1 hour ago, CanadaSteve said:

Here, I guess you need one of these as well.  Apparently your football accruement warrants one of these: 

I'd suck as Jets coach. That means I'd at least check one of the boxes they usually look for!

[jgb]

11 minutes ago, thebuzzardman said:

I'd suck as Jets coach. That means I'd at least check one of the boxes they usually look for!

Fake news. The application for Jets HC is one line.

Salary Expectation: ___________________

[#27TheDominator]

47 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Certainly possible, I have been VERY dismissive of guys like Berrios for a very long time.  And I must admit, my view could very much have been wrong in not seeing them as important role-players a bit further down the depth chart.

I think this is right, and not far from why I was dismissive actually.  I think, perhaps, that my objection to "Berrios" talk was always around him being inflated to be something legit, something like a #2 WR or the like.  I do not think he is.

But as a valuable piece, for depth, for returns (if we don't have anyone better or those who are better can't be risked on returns) he's fine.  In point of fact, with Crowder likely moving on, and perhaps not enough draft capital to solve all our problems, keeping Berrios may be quite wise going forward, as a low-cost, experienced, still-get-use-as-return-man backup to Moore in the slot.  

To be clear, I do not want to see him starting or getting alot of plays at WR, but I also no longer want him immediately replaced as I once did.

I totally get that.  The thing with a guy like Berrios is that yeah, you don't want him to start, but Berrios + good starting guard might be better than Crowder + Van Roten.  It isn't that you don't want a better option, but in a salary cap world sometimes you have to pick your poison.  Berrios is not a stud, but as poison it could be a hell of a lot worse. 

Trouble is that you are coming around on him as he enters free agency.  He's the kind of guy you want back, but you don't want to pay.  Depending on where/how they spend, they might even let him walk to help the comp formula.  The Jets will probably be buyers, but with LDT, Moses and Flacco they added a few pieces that might factor in.  Add them to Maye, Crowder, Shepherd, Fatukasi and all of the guys on one year deals that they signed they may have something on that side of the ledger.  If they spend on guys that are cap cuts or trade for a bigger piece they may see a comp pick for a change.

[phill1c]

12 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I totally get that.  The thing with a guy like Berrios is that yeah, you don't want him to start, but Berrios + good starting guard might be better than Crowder + Van Roten

I want him to start. Over Crowder. But, I also see his value as a special teamer and I wouldn't want to put all eggs--starting slot WR and kickoff/put returner--in Berrios basket.

And I'm definitely not seeing why anyone wouldn't see Berrios value since he's been here awhile, excelling in whatever role he's been given.

[#27TheDominator]

9 minutes ago, phill1c said:

I want him to start. Over Crowder. But, I also see his value as a special teamer and I wouldn't want to put all eggs--starting slot WR and kickoff/put returner--in Berrios basket.

And I'm definitely not seeing why anyone wouldn't see Berrios value since he's been here awhile, excelling in whatever role he's been given.

Probably because we all have different definitions of the word excel. 

[CanadaSteve]

1 hour ago, thebuzzardman said:

I'd suck as Jets coach. That means I'd at least check one of the boxes they usually look for!

So....MIGHT that mean you are not the best judge of what sucks and does not suck when it comes to GM'ing and coaching?

[phill1c]

46 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Probably because we all have different definitions of the word excel. 

Yeah, like every word in the language. It probalby means something a little different to each person.

So, your post is a meaningless (my definition: adding nothing of substance) addition to the conversation.

[varjet]

My prior post was not focused enough, but I think we are getting to the same place.

Let's say 2022, or at worst 2023 is the year the JD/RS Jets should be a solid playoff team.  Who, based on both ability and contracts, will be on the offensive team to contribute to that?

2022:  Wilson, Carter, Yeboah (?), Davis, Moore, Mims (?), Becton (?), AVT, McGovern, Fant.  So that is 1-3 players short.

2023:  Wilson, Carter, Yeboah (?), Davis, Moore, Mims (?), Becton (?), AVT.  So that is 3-6 players short.

Oh....the analysis on this analysis for the defense is much, much grimmer.  Assuming you need 12-13 starters, the Jets have how many?   Quinnen, JFM, Rankins, Lawson(?), NO LBS, Hall, Echols, MC2.   They need at least 6 starters on defense.

That is why I argue that we should extend McGovern, LDT, Fant and Moses, or at least some of them.  There are too many holes here to fill in a reasonable time.  It will require overpaying for the talent that contribute, but most teams have to do that somewhat.  Only the great teams don't (which is why they are great).  I think that is JD's goal, but he needs to draft much better to do that. 

[Doggin94it]

19 hours ago, Beerfish said:

So far so good but as I've said when your prize head coach who is a D guy has his D be epically bad things change

Saleh comes from and runs a defensive system that doesn't really pay LBers except for a stud MLB, and definitely doesn't pay safeties.

[#27TheDominator]

36 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Yeah, like every word in the language. It probalby means something a little different to each person.

So, your post is a meaningless (my definition: adding nothing of substance) addition to the conversation.

Oh dear.  You have hurt my feelings!  

You think Berrios has excelled as a receiver?  He has been okay.  Solid.  Maybe even good, but I don't think a team in the league would pencil him in as a starter and not try to upgrade.  

 

[#27TheDominator]

2 minutes ago, Doggin94it said:

Saleh comes from and runs a defensive system that doesn't really pay LBers except for a stud MLB, and definitely doesn't pay safeties.

Didn't he come from Seattle?  They paid Jimmy Ward a ton of money and his teams have generally invested a bit in safety.  

[phill1c]

3 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Oh dear.  You have hurt my feelings!  

You think Berrios has excelled as a receiver?  He has been okay.  Solid.  Maybe even good, but I don't think a team in the league would pencil him in as a starter and not try to upgrade.  

 

For hurting your feelings, I'm very very sorry. I apologize unreservedly.

I guess I just don't understand the opinion. Berrios is undersized, like a number of NFL players at many positions. That's all. Other than that, he has burst, catches the football in the clutch (punts count as clutch catches in my book), makes big plays when they are there, and doesn't screw up.

Did you have the same opinion about Wayne Chrebet? "He's great on 3rd down, but I'm kinda looking to upgrade there..." NO, no sane person would say that.

Berrios is small. But dude has more heart than you'll ever have, looking ONLY at measurables instead of actual performance. WTF is wrong with you?

[thebuzzardman]

5 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

So....MIGHT that mean you are not the best judge of what sucks and does not suck when it comes to GM'ing and coaching?

 

Apparently I'm missing out on all the excellence that's producing this 3-8 record and giving up 40 points regularly. 

[CanadaSteve]

Just now, thebuzzardman said:

 

Apparently I'm missing out on all the excellence that's producing this 3-8 record and giving up 40 points regularly. 

No, I think you're missing out on the fact that changing coaching staff and GM's evert year will guarantee 3-8 records every year!

[thebuzzardman]

5 hours ago, varjet said:

My prior post was not focused enough, but I think we are getting to the same place.

Let's say 2022, or at worst 2023 is the year the JD/RS Jets should be a solid playoff team.  Who, based on both ability and contracts, will be on the offensive team to contribute to that?

2022:  Wilson, Carter, Yeboah (?), Davis, Moore, Mims (?), Becton (?), AVT, McGovern, Fant.  So that is 1-3 players short.

2023:  Wilson, Carter, Yeboah (?), Davis, Moore, Mims (?), Becton (?), AVT.  So that is 3-6 players short.

Oh....the analysis on this analysis for the defense is much, much grimmer.  Assuming you need 12-13 starters, the Jets have how many?   Quinnen, JFM, Rankins, Lawson(?), NO LBS, Hall, Echols, MC2.   They need at least 6 starters on defense.

That is why I argue that we should extend McGovern, LDT, Fant and Moses, or at least some of them.  There are too many holes here to fill in a reasonable time.  It will require overpaying for the talent that contribute, but most teams have to do that somewhat.  Only the great teams don't (which is why they are great).  I think that is JD's goal, but he needs to draft much better to do that. 

 

You wrote this name twice. You know that if you write it three times in one post you summon this boards version of The Candyman, right? 

Full page posts, demands to list TE's better than he Y*, physical threats. 

Dodged a bullet, you did. 

[phill1c]

6 minutes ago, thebuzzardman said:

You wrote this name twice. You know that if you write it three times in one post you summon this boards version of The Candyman, right?

Helloooo, you rang?

[thebuzzardman]

58 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

No, I think you're missing out on the fact that changing coaching staff and GM's evert year will guarantee 3-8 records every year!

Jets are good at that deck chairs on the Titanic kind of thing!

[adb280z]

10 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

I still call it an indictment on the staff.  If there are issues with Mims, as a coach, you gotta figure out how to use him.  The spent a 2nd round pick on him.  You gotta see what you got there.  Kid was highly regarded in the draft, and averages 18 yards a catch.  Get him on the field and see.  At the very least, make him trade bait.

He still has to earn his snaps.  If he's not putting up effort or running the wrong routes in practice should he still get prime playing time just because he's a 2nd rounder?  

I hope he turns his career around but he's having a truly dreadful 2nd season after a decent rookie year.  That's a guy who'd be on the bubble for next season at this rate.

[Peace Frog]

On 12/1/2021 at 11:41 AM, Warfish said:

 

RB - Carter perhaps?  
 

I was just told that Michael Carter is a “dime a dozen” RB that can be easily replaced by a 3rd or 4th round pick (like Perrine or all those other great RBs we’ve drafted over the years). 

I agreed with you he’s a long term piece but I guess I was wrong.  

[Doggin94it]

6 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Didn't he come from Seattle?  They paid Jimmy Ward a ton of money and his teams have generally invested a bit in safety.  

He came from SF. They paid Ward under 10M per year in a deal signed last offseason - that's the 16th highest paid safety in the league. Their other safety is Jacquiski Tartt, who they drafted 7 years ago and are currently paying less than 2M per. In total, the 9ers are middle of the league (18th) in positional spend at S.

[#27TheDominator]

On 12/2/2021 at 10:50 PM, Doggin94it said:

He came from SF. They paid Ward under 10M per year in a deal signed last offseason - that's the 16th highest paid safety in the league. Their other safety is Jacquiski Tartt, who they drafted 7 years ago and are currently paying less than 2M per. In total, the 9ers are middle of the league (18th) in positional spend at S.

He got the job in SF based on his work as LB coach in Jacksonville under Gus Bradley who he worked under on the defensive staff of the Legion of Boom.  

[#27TheDominator]

On 12/2/2021 at 7:20 PM, phill1c said:

For hurting your feelings, I'm very very sorry. I apologize unreservedly.

I guess I just don't understand the opinion. Berrios is undersized, like a number of NFL players at many positions. That's all. Other than that, he has burst, catches the football in the clutch (punts count as clutch catches in my book), makes big plays when they are there, and doesn't screw up.

Did you have the same opinion about Wayne Chrebet? "He's great on 3rd down, but I'm kinda looking to upgrade there..." NO, no sane person would say that.

Berrios is small. But dude has more heart than you'll ever have, looking ONLY at measurables instead of actual performance. WTF is wrong with you?

If you think Berrios is really providing great performance, fine.  I don't.  I would describe him as a JAG, but that has taken on way too negative a connotation and I was one of the guys sticking up for him around here.  He is fine.  He is a solid enough player that belongs in the league, but he hasn't even hit 400 yards in a season.  There is room for him on the team, but not at the top my roster.

I have plenty of heart.  I couldn't run a 4.44 40.  Braxton Berrios has fine measureables.  He is just teeny.  His 3 cone and shuttle were why I loved him and thought he was a great waiver pickup.

[varjet]

Next year Davis, Moore and Mims are under contract.  JD has to basically rebuild the WR room again.   We seem to like Crowder, Cole and Berrios as candidates for re-sign/extension.    I am thinking Crowder should probably move on, but we obviously need a lot of bodies here and there are only so many draft picks.   it will be hard for a lower round WR draft pick to make an impact in 2022.  

The Jets can tender Mike White for $3.3mm (2nd round) or $4.7mm (1st round).  I think Trubisky signed for less than those amounts.   There needs to be a QB on the roster next year other than Wilson, Josh Johnson and Joe Flacco.  

JD’s first two drafts should have yield more mid-round OL picks that could be starting now.   It did not.  So from a practical perspective, the best line they can put in the field is Fant ($9mm FA), AVT (R1), McGovern ($9mm FA), some other FA and Becton (R1). Yes, I put Becton at RT until Fant’s contract expires.  I actually think Fant plays better at LT. 

We all agree that MC/RB is a building block, but he is not a full time RB.  So the Jets should be looking at drafting at least one of those. 

TE after 2 years of JD is basically no where. 

JD can’t keep trying to build and replace.  He has to build and keep some players.  They all won’t be the best value. They have about 25 contracts expiring and realistically can replace 10-15 players.  They need to find a way to re-sign 10 of their expiring contracts.   There is a lot of work to do.  This should be a playoff team in year 3 of JD, and it won’t be.

[phill1c]

On 12/4/2021 at 5:16 PM, #27TheDominator said:

If you think Berrios is really providing great performance, fine.  I don't.  I would describe him as a JAG, but that has taken on way too negative a connotation and I was one of the guys sticking up for him around here.  He is fine.  He is a solid enough player that belongs in the league, but he hasn't even hit 400 yards in a season.  There is room for him on the team, but not at the top my roster.

I have plenty of heart.  I couldn't run a 4.44 40.  Braxton Berrios has fine measureables.  He is just teeny.  His 3 cone and shuttle were why I loved him and thought he was a great waiver pickup.

He is teeny. So is crowder. So was Chrebet, Bruce Harper, Leon Washington, Danny Woodhead. These are just Jets. It's so common that I don't understand how that would be worth mentioning. We can see how small he is. But when the Jets need a big play, Berrios Delivers!!

Plus, he performs. His kick returns: HELLO!!. His flawless punt returns. Are you watching them. AND, when Crowder was absent, Berrios started and caught so many balls people were upset.?????

He's way more than JAG on this team.

[#27TheDominator]

2 minutes ago, phill1c said:

He is teeny. So is crowder. So was Chrebet, Bruce Harper, Leon Washington, Danny Woodhead. These are just Jets. It's so common that I don't understand how that would be worth mentioning. We can see how small he is. But when the Jets need a big play, Berrios Delivers!!

Plus, he performs. His kick returns: HELLO!!. His flawless punt returns. Are you watching them. AND, when Crowder was absent, Berrios started and caught so many balls people were upset.?????

He's way more than JAG on this team.

It took 4 days to write this Ode to Braxton Berrios?  The guy has never had more than 400 yards, 3 TDs or 40 catches in a season.   Forgive me if I'm not putting him in the Ring of Honor.

[phill1c]

4 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

It took 4 days to write this Ode to Braxton Berrios?  The guy has never had more than 400 yards, 3 TDs or 40 catches in a season.   Forgive me if I'm not putting him in the Ring of Honor.

Jerry Rice would be hard pressed to have much more with Darnold and then Wilson the primary signal callers. So, kinda incomplete stat. How about comparing his stats to others in the same period. if you're looking to make a SERIOUS point.

I'm just saying he's contributing and not making mistakes on a team that has way too many guys NOT consistently doing their jobs and making mistakes.

If the Jets had 20 more Braxton Berrios they'd be in the playoff hunt...in the SHRIMPO LEAGUE...hahahahaha