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Oregon Vs. Utah


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Just now, KRL said:

The game is on ABC tonight at 8 pm.  I'll be interested in watching ORE
and Kayvon Thibodeaux because they got "washed" by Utah a couple of weeks
ago 38-7.  Can Thibodeaux impact this game like Aidan Hutchinson did against
Ohio St.?  Its not crazy to think that the #1 pass rusher off the board could
be decided over the next two days.  ORE/Utah tonight and Michigan/Iowa tomorrow

What's your opinion of Thibodeaux?

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6 minutes ago, peebag said:

What's your opinion of Thibodeaux?

This will be my first real time watching him.  I want to see if he lives
up to the reputation I've been reading about.  Hutchinson's performance
last week was ridiculous so Thibodeaux has a high bar to reach in my eyes
 

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6 minutes ago, KRL said:

This will be my first real time watching him.  I want to see if he lives
up to the reputation I've been reading about.  Hutchinson's performance
last week was ridiculous so Thibodeaux has a high bar to reach in my eyes
 

I was curious what others thought because I've watched him a couple of times this year and I don't get what the hype is.

He made a few plays but overall just a good not "great" performances

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25 minutes ago, KRL said:

This will be my first real time watching him.  I want to see if he lives
up to the reputation I've been reading about.  Hutchinson's performance
last week was ridiculous so Thibodeaux has a high bar to reach in my eyes
 

It’s going to be interesting to see how the board falls. I’m not sure the Jets will have an opportunity to draft either.

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1 minute ago, derp said:

It’s going to be interesting to see how the board falls. I’m not sure the Jets will have an opportunity to draft either.

Could very well be the first two players off the board.  

This game is great though a lot of headline talent in the game to watch.  

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i remember when oregon got thibs and it was a huge get - to be completely honest i'm not sure how he because the consensus #1 edge.  looking at him he looks small, listed at 6'5" and 258. 18 career sacks in 3 seasons.

hutchinson looks more imposing - listed at 6'6" and 265. has 15.5 sacks in 4 seasons after really dominating this year.

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, heymangold said:

i remember when oregon got thibs and it was a huge get - to be completely honest i'm not sure how he because the consensus #1 edge.  looking at him he looks small, listed at 6'5" and 258. 18 career sacks in 3 seasons.

hutchinson looks more imposing - listed at 6'6" and 265. has 15.5 sacks in 4 seasons after really dominating this year.

 

 

 

I’ve read that both guys are going to put up absurd triangle numbers at the Combine, which probably seals the deal for any chance of them falling to us, especially if we notch another win or two

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Just now, T0mShane said:

I’ve read that both guys are going to put up absurd triangle numbers at the Combine, which probably seals the deal for any chance of them falling to us, especially if we notch another win or two

awesome, a combine warrior.  what edition of Vernon Gholston are we on now? 2.0? 3.0?

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20 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I’ve read that both guys are going to put up absurd triangle numbers at the Combine, which probably seals the deal for any chance of them falling to us, especially if we notch another win or two

We’ve talked about this some in the draft forum. The edge class is deeper than it is strong at the top. Jets have starters penciled in for the next two plus years in Lawson and Franklin-Myers and rotate a lot. Lawson’s health is obviously a question. Two very different skill sets in the edges as well - which meshes with what SF did.

Worth drafting because it’s a premium position and Douglas/Saleh both value the fronts (which is the right way to build). But they can probably get away with chasing upside because the DL has talent already and if they’re drafting an edge there’s a decent chance he starts his career as a backup. Given that and the depth of the class, waiting or not getting one of those isn’t the end of the world.

It’s possible David Ojabo tests better than either of those guys for example, he’s a redshirt sophomore from Scotland playing across from Hutchinson who quietly has 11 sacks and 5 forced fumbles even though he hasn’t been playing football that long. Working his way into some top tens and he’ll probably be in the conversation for one of the Jets’ first round picks. Still learning to play but athleticism on the edge is key.

Odafe Oweh for example was a raw freak edge in last year’s class who had almost no college production - five sacks as a sophomore and none as a junior before coming out. Got knocked for being raw, he really didn’t look like he had a plan but the athleticism was obvious. Believe he ran in the 4.3’s. Ravens scooped him up late first round and he’s got five sacks as a rookie. Same high school as Ojabo actually - both went to Blair in NJ. If that guy with 7 career college sacks and 0 in his last year goes first round - granted I don’t think Ojabo runs 4.3’s but Michigan has put out some freaks - Ojabo with eleven before the Big Ten title game and any postseason with all the hype that could build for him is going to go high.

And just touching on the depth of the class not that Dane Brugler is the be all end all of draft analysts but just as an example, I think 12 of his top 50 prospects would play the Lawson or JFM role and four of the fifteen he didn’t want to leave out of his top 50 would as well. Lots of different styles and guys who you’re not currently seeing in the PFN mocks everybody likes because that board hasn’t caught up yet and has day two or better guys listed as seventh rounders or UDFA’s.

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2 hours ago, KRL said:

The game is on ABC tonight at 8 pm.  I'll be interested in watching ORE
and Kayvon Thibodeaux because they got "washed" by Utah a couple of weeks
ago 38-7.  Can Thibodeaux impact this game like Aidan Hutchinson did against
Ohio St.?  Its not crazy to think that the #1 pass rusher off the board could
be decided over the next two days.  ORE/Utah tonight and Michigan/Iowa tomorrow

 

Some of the most important Jets games of the season aren't even Jets games.... again.

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1 hour ago, derp said:

We’ve talked about this some in the draft forum. The edge class is deeper than it is strong at the top. Jets have starters penciled in for the next two plus years in Lawson and Franklin-Myers and rotate a lot. Lawson’s health is obviously a question. Two very different skill sets in the edges as well - which meshes with what SF did.

Worth drafting because it’s a premium position and Douglas/Saleh both value the fronts (which is the right way to build). But they can probably get away with chasing upside because the DL has talent already and if they’re drafting an edge there’s a decent chance he starts his career as a backup. Given that and the depth of the class, waiting or not getting one of those isn’t the end of the world.

It’s possible David Ojabo tests better than either of those guys for example, he’s a redshirt sophomore from Scotland playing across from Hutchinson who quietly has 11 sacks and 5 forced fumbles even though he hasn’t been playing football that long. Working his way into some top tens and he’ll probably be in the conversation for one of the Jets’ first round picks. Still learning to play but athleticism on the edge is key.

Odafe Oweh for example was a raw freak edge in last year’s class who had almost no college production - five sacks as a sophomore and none as a junior before coming out. Got knocked for being raw, he really didn’t look like he had a plan but the athleticism was obvious. Believe he ran in the 4.3’s. Ravens scooped him up late first round and he’s got five sacks as a rookie. Same high school as Ojabo actually - both went to Blair in NJ. If that guy with 7 career college sacks and 0 in his last year goes first round - granted I don’t think Ojabo runs 4.3’s but Michigan has put out some freaks - Ojabo with eleven before the Big Ten title game and any postseason with all the hype that could build for him is going to go high.

And just touching on the depth of the class not that Dane Brugler is the be all end all of draft analysts but just as an example, I think 12 of his top 50 prospects would play the Lawson or JFM role and four of the fifteen he didn’t want to leave out of his top 50 would as well. Lots of different styles and guys who you’re not currently seeing in the PFN mocks everybody likes because that board hasn’t caught up yet and has day two or better guys listed as seventh rounders or UDFA’s.

I just don’t think you can count on Lawson & Myers, CL may never be the same again, Achilles ruptures can be devastating and even take several years to recover to previous form and even then, his career best was only 5.5 sacks(I get that sacks are not the only metric, but still).

JFM is spectacularly overrated here in my opinion, nothing more than a capable rotational pass rusher. That ‘talented’ DL you speak of has been utterly gashed routinely in the run game.
I think we have to invest high in the 4-3 end position and probably double dip with one of those secondary prospects you mention. It’s by far our most glaring weakness and the lack of pressure on opposing QB’s has been terrible for decades, the dreadful run defense is a more recent issue but either way we need elite talent up front 

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10 minutes ago, redlichtie said:

I just don’t think you can count on Lawson & Myers, CL may never be the same again, Achilles ruptures can be devastating and even take several years to recover to previous form and even then, his career best was only 5.5 sacks(I get that sacks are not the only metric, but still).

JFM is spectacularly overrated here in my opinion, nothing more than a capable rotational pass rusher. That ‘talented’ DL you speak of has been utterly gashed routinely in the run game.
I think we have to invest high in the 4-3 end position and probably double dip with one of those secondary prospects you mention. It’s by far our most glaring weakness and the lack of pressure on opposing QB’s has been terrible for decades, the dreadful run defense is a more recent issue but either way we need elite talent up front 

The point was that there's a very real chance whoever they take is backing someone up to start their career. I agree you can't count on Lawson, thus suggesting they take an edge early. I also don't think you can count Lawson out, either. He's part of the conversation and a very real chance that the rookie backs him up.

Lawson's injury has been a big issue for the defense. The issue with the run game is partially the edges but also very much the linebacker play. Depth has been very much tested by injuries which is a problem for a team that rotates as much as the Jets. System install is a problem too. This defensive line is basically the same as last year when the run defense was solid despite horrible game scripts. Injuries, new system, linebackers, depth all big problems.

I also think they should double dip, but because the class is good not because it's this huge need for starters. Disagree on Franklin-Myers. Think he's solid in his role. This defense does funny stuff with that other edge - Arik Armstead in SF too. Non-traditional, DE/DT hybrid playing there.

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2 hours ago, derp said:

We’ve talked about this some in the draft forum. The edge class is deeper than it is strong at the top. Jets have starters penciled in for the next two plus years in Lawson and Franklin-Myers and rotate a lot. Lawson’s health is obviously a question. Two very different skill sets in the edges as well - which meshes with what SF did.

Worth drafting because it’s a premium position and Douglas/Saleh both value the fronts (which is the right way to build). But they can probably get away with chasing upside because the DL has talent already and if they’re drafting an edge there’s a decent chance he starts his career as a backup. Given that and the depth of the class, waiting or not getting one of those isn’t the end of the world.

It’s possible David Ojabo tests better than either of those guys for example, he’s a redshirt sophomore from Scotland playing across from Hutchinson who quietly has 11 sacks and 5 forced fumbles even though he hasn’t been playing football that long. Working his way into some top tens and he’ll probably be in the conversation for one of the Jets’ first round picks. Still learning to play but athleticism on the edge is key.

Odafe Oweh for example was a raw freak edge in last year’s class who had almost no college production - five sacks as a sophomore and none as a junior before coming out. Got knocked for being raw, he really didn’t look like he had a plan but the athleticism was obvious. Believe he ran in the 4.3’s. Ravens scooped him up late first round and he’s got five sacks as a rookie. Same high school as Ojabo actually - both went to Blair in NJ. If that guy with 7 career college sacks and 0 in his last year goes first round - granted I don’t think Ojabo runs 4.3’s but Michigan has put out some freaks - Ojabo with eleven before the Big Ten title game and any postseason with all the hype that could build for him is going to go high.

And just touching on the depth of the class not that Dane Brugler is the be all end all of draft analysts but just as an example, I think 12 of his top 50 prospects would play the Lawson or JFM role and four of the fifteen he didn’t want to leave out of his top 50 would as well. Lots of different styles and guys who you’re not currently seeing in the PFN mocks everybody likes because that board hasn’t caught up yet and has day two or better guys listed as seventh rounders or UDFA’s.

I had read what you posted a little while ago about the Jets not being inclined to draft a CB in the top ten and I found that pretty compelling. However, if they’re not getting one of the top two EDGE guys, and they’re going to pass on the top CBs, I guess I’d find using a top 8 pick on another OL to be a little disappointing, considering that they already have AVT, Becton, and Fant has emerged as a viable OLT. Using, say, #5 on a RG prospect when you’ve already got some good OL in the fold seems underwhelming unless that guard is superhuman. Is Ekwonu on that level as an IOL? My anxiety is that they have these two high-high picks and end up looking at a strong safety prospect and a few flawed receiver prospects, and without the big QBs in the mix, the opportunity to trade out is nil. Obviously it’s early, but is Ojabo going to get to the top 8-10? I just don’t want the Jets to draft guys all the way up there that need a lot of development. They don’t do well with those kinds of guys. 

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2 hours ago, derp said:

This is, for sure, a bad draft two have two high-high picks. 

In my opinion there are no top CB's this year to pass on. Stingley is still riding the coattails of a good freshman year and hasn't been able to stay healthy. I'd guess he'll be in the teens by draft day.

I think they'll almost certainly take an edge with one of those first two picks. It's a need/value/premium position match up. The gap between Hutchinson and Thibodeaux and probably everyone else in this draft is overrated in my opinion. If the general narrative is Hutchinson and Thibodeaux would not have been top ten prospects last year - which I've seen multiple places - then you can't also tell me that there's this big gap between those guys and the others in this class who are going to be athletic and good producers.

Would also argue the Jets take the wrong kinds of raw prospects. Usually at positions where the coaching staff isn't great and they need to play right away. And there's production but like it's iffy - 8 sacks, 800 yards receiving and 7 touchdowns but the offense didn't throw a lot type stuff. I guess you could argue Ojabo's is iffy but someone like him is hyper athletic and produces at a crazy level and he'd be able to come in and play but not need to play a ton of snaps. I think it's a good situation for development. Also think a WR3 role behind Davis and Moore is a good situation for development - play time but the guy's not going to be first banana.

The OL - two things. One is that Becton is a major question mark. The other is that Fant is a liability as a run blocker for an offense that's theoretically run first, he's been better on the left side than the right, and he's only signed one more year. In a weak top ten, Ekwonu or Neal is a year one RG, maybe beats Fant out for RT, likely takes over for Fant when he leaves in FA, and maybe takes over for Becton if he proves to continue to be unrealiable.

They could certainly draft/sign a RG and then take a day two tackle to play the Moses swing tackle role - which is key, they need depth since Becton doesn't play - and take over for Fant next year. And that would be a really viable strategy. But I don't know what they're doing with that second top ten pick. Wide receiver doesn't mesh value, I guess they could take Hamilton who's a legitimate freak athlete and has produced - very different prospect than Adams - but a big meh to a safety that high. Nakobe Dean is a blast but I feel the same way about off ball linebacker that high too. Tight end class is weak. A corner is possible but I honestly don't think value is there or the roster really supports it. It's probably an offensive lineman or double dip at edge with a slight chance of the safety/corner/LB. Trade down and WR is my favorite approach but I think it'd take a luck to find a team interested in moving up in this class.

I also think with those early picks they want a degree of predictability about being able to fill a need in the draft so they don't address the need in FA. Which goes for a lot of the non-premium positions since you can find viable starters at RG, S, LB day two. That there happen to be two offensive linemen who have experience at guard and left tackle and the team has an immediate crater at RG, a hole the following year at RT, and a potential long-term need at LT...feels like need, value, and likelihood of being able to grab a prospect all mesh there.

There's not really much that's not gross there but if you're telling me there's a chance the guy I'm spending a premium pick on is going to be playing serious snaps as a rookie or a year down the road at LT/RT, S, or LB...it feels like overkill on the OL, maybe they take Hamilton or something like that, but I think anything they do in a stick and pick scenario with those selections this year is going to be a bit of a hold your nose situation whether it's positional value or recent draft trends.

Agree with pretty much all of this.

I feel like it's almost a lock that we go DL/EDGE with one the first rounders and OL with one of the others.

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3 hours ago, derp said:

This is, for sure, a bad draft two have two high-high picks. 

In my opinion there are no top CB's this year to pass on. Stingley is still riding the coattails of a good freshman year and hasn't been able to stay healthy. I'd guess he'll be in the teens by draft day.

I think they'll almost certainly take an edge with one of those first two picks. It's a need/value/premium position match up. The gap between Hutchinson and Thibodeaux and probably everyone else in this draft is overrated in my opinion. If the general narrative is Hutchinson and Thibodeaux would not have been top ten prospects last year - which I've seen multiple places - then you can't also tell me that there's this big gap between those guys and the others in this class who are going to be athletic and good producers.

Would also argue the Jets take the wrong kinds of raw prospects. Usually at positions where the coaching staff isn't great and they need to play right away. And there's production but like it's iffy - 8 sacks, 800 yards receiving and 7 touchdowns but the offense didn't throw a lot type stuff. I guess you could argue Ojabo's is iffy but someone like him is hyper athletic and produces at a crazy level and he'd be able to come in and play but not need to play a ton of snaps. I think it's a good situation for development. Also think a WR3 role behind Davis and Moore is a good situation for development - play time but the guy's not going to be first banana.

The OL - two things. One is that Becton is a major question mark. The other is that Fant is a liability as a run blocker for an offense that's theoretically run first, he's been better on the left side than the right, and he's only signed one more year. In a weak top ten, Ekwonu or Neal is a year one RG, maybe beats Fant out for RT, likely takes over for Fant when he leaves in FA, and maybe takes over for Becton if he proves to continue to be unrealiable.

They could certainly draft/sign a RG and then take a day two tackle to play the Moses swing tackle role - which is key, they need depth since Becton doesn't play - and take over for Fant next year. And that would be a really viable strategy. But I don't know what they're doing with that second top ten pick. Wide receiver doesn't mesh value, I guess they could take Hamilton who's a legitimate freak athlete and has produced - very different prospect than Adams - but a big meh to a safety that high. Nakobe Dean is a blast but I feel the same way about off ball linebacker that high too. Tight end class is weak. A corner is possible but I honestly don't think value is there or the roster really supports it. It's probably an offensive lineman or double dip at edge with a slight chance of the safety/corner/LB. Trade down and WR is my favorite approach but I think it'd take a luck to find a team interested in moving up in this class.

I also think with those early picks they want a degree of predictability about being able to fill a need in the draft so they don't address the need in FA. Which goes for a lot of the non-premium positions since you can find viable starters at RG, S, LB day two. That there happen to be two offensive linemen who have experience at guard and left tackle and the team has an immediate crater at RG, a hole the following year at RT, and a potential long-term need at LT...feels like need, value, and likelihood of being able to grab a prospect all mesh there.

There's not really much that's not gross there but if you're telling me there's a chance the guy I'm spending a premium pick on is going to be playing serious snaps as a rookie or a year down the road at LT/RT, S, or LB...it feels like overkill on the OL, maybe they take Hamilton or something like that, but I think anything they do in a stick and pick scenario with those selections this year is going to be a bit of a hold your nose situation whether it's positional value or recent draft trends.

So we’re drafting Tyler Linderbaum?

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1 hour ago, kdels62 said:

Devin Lloyd is a freak athlete. I don’t love the role he’s cast in but he looks like he’s in the mold of Micah Parsons, where you just put him on the field and let him work.

He’s a converted safety, he actually has really good ball skills.  

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11 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

He’s a converted safety, he actually has really good ball skills.  

I’ve recently started a torrid love affair with Jalen Pitre. If we snagged Lloyd and Pitre this defense would be transformed. 

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Difference in this game between Lloyd and Thibodeaux.  Other than the fact that they play different positions.  You have to make a conscious effort to watch/find Thibs on each play.  Lloyd, you just watch the game and you can't miss him; he jumps out at you.

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2 hours ago, Lith said:

Difference in this game between Lloyd and Thibodeaux.  Other than the fact that they play different positions.  You have to make a conscious effort to watch/find Thibs on each play.  Lloyd, you just watch the game and you can't miss him; he jumps out at you.

Ditto!!!  I don't see anything in Thibodeaux.  Taking Hutchinson with our first #1 and Lloyd with our second would

transform the defense

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